http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif Does anyone use any modifier or conditioner for the winter months, if so what kind?





Sean

power service works well for me in my ford tractor and the truck. managed to get a case of aviex (crc) wholesale. am beginning to run this in.

I use DIESELMOTIVE by Chevron........................Steve...

I use Primrose 409 for winter operation in that it:
1. Lowers the pour point 30 degrees
2. Provides protection against water freezing in the lines as it is an emulsifying additive..
3. Provides 5+ cetane boost
4. Provides corrosion protection
5. Provides lubricity enhancement for the pump, injectors
6. Provides detergency to keep the injectors and system clean and in top operating condition
7. Provides bacteriastatic protection against microbes
8. Makes my Duramax run and start better!!
9. Is inexpensive at 2 ounces per tankful!!
George Morrison
Which is why AV Lubricants sells it!! :-)Edited by: Georgecls

Thanks for all the replies. I am going to order some of the Primrose 409.





Seanhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

There is a GM bulletin that states not to use anything with alcohol in it - the power service doesn't state that it doesn't contain alcohol.


Same bulletin says to avoid additives that contain emulsifiers (disperses water instead of making it easier for water to be trapped in water catch). From memory the power service contains an emulsifier. The CRC product that I saw at the local auto store uses a demulsifier (which GM recommends) and also states it contains no alcohol.


I have been looking around for either Racor or Stanadyne products, GM recommends these as suppliers -> can't find them anywhere locally and need to order some mail order.


FWIW - The primrose products use an emulsifier, which GM says to avoid.


jeff


Edited by: dmax lover

Dmax lover..nice post..I will use the crc for my truck and use up the power service for my tractor as i have been using successfully in the past. Thanks for summing things up

Thanks - I am a relatively new owner of a 2003 duramax 2500 HD LS X cab and trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can...

I am figuring out that the theme of a duramax truck should be "life at 20,000 psi" - the pressure of the fuel injection system . Things are different from your older diesel...

Things corrode faster at 20,000 psi so be sure to avoid alcohol or else your fuel rails will be spewing oil at a young age; Water does nasty things at 20,000 psi too - like gouging fuel injectors and doing nasty stuff when it changes state (water to steam); And at 20,000 psi water doesn't lubricate, it cuts and it cuts very deep.

jeff
Edited by: dmax lover

Dmax, when you find site that sells the recomended fuel additives please let us know. Thank you for your research. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

I use FPPF Total Power. Get 12 one quart bottles in a case for $68.04. Each bottle treats 250 gallons. Edited by: Maverick

www.usdieselparts.com - they carry stanadyne and racor products. These are okay according to GM. Seems like "stanadyne performance formula" appears to be the favorite.

jeff
Edited by: dmax lover

I use FPPF Total Power. Get 12 one quart bottles in a case for $64.08. Each bottle treats 250 gallons.


Would like to know your source for the FPPF Total Power case price of $64.08?? I need to buy a case.

www.usdieselparts.com - they carry stanadyne and racor products. These are okay according to GM. Seems like "stanadyne performance formula" appears to be the favorite.

jeff






Do a little search here on fuel additive posts. Standyne might be GM's choice, doesn't mean it's the best or even any good at all. The 2 have had a long relationship and therefore I question the "recomended status". I wrote to Standyne and asked some questions. The answers were pure marketing BS. BTW, Standyne has nothing in the product to deal with water. Seems to me others concentrate on handling water in the fuel and Standyne just ignores it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

http://www.howeslube.com/products/index.php/category/10

Stanadyne only sells through diesel injector shops. I can get it locally but it's expensive. I can get it for 1/2 the price through mail order.


For Stanadyne try:


http://www.dieselpage.com/additive.htm


This place also has a lot of other nice "toys" for our trucks. Guages, exhaust, etc.


I am using the Stanadyne. I wish more places would sell it. I know there is an extreme debate over emulsifier or demulsifier. It's a tough decision. I don't think you will ever get the parties to agree. Each party has very good reasons for their position.


I wish some of the supporters of this site would sell both types and just let the consumer decide which one. Then I would be able to do one stop shopping for the additive, filters, etc.


I am not complaining... don't flame mehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif. It's just a thought to make getting and selling a product easier.


Thanks!

Regarding the excellent comment of site supporters selling both types. I (www.avlube.com (http://www.avlube.com)) cannot/will not have anything available on our web site that I feel may cause/create problems for end users. I could write a book of horror stories on folks whose warranties have been denied due to fuel system corrosion issues. I can only be with products that I know and use in our Duramax/6.5TD's.. I am sorry, your suggestion for supporters to carry both emulsifying and emulsifying fuel additives is an excellent one, but I feel very strongly on this issue...


George Morrison

Do a little search here on fuel additive posts. Standyne might be GM's choice, doesn't mean it's the best or even any good at all. The 2 have had a long relationship and therefore I question the "recomended status". I wrote to Standyne and asked some questions. The answers were pure marketing BS. BTW, Standyne has nothing in the product to deal with water. Seems to me others concentrate on handling water in the fuel and Standyne just ignores it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif





1. I would agree that stanadyne's marketing is full of it - doesn't mean the product is bad. For me, it makes me lean towards racor products - but they are not as readily available.


2. You statement that "Stanadyne has nothing in the product to deal with water" is incorrect. It has a demulsifier. The GM bulletin clearly states that water must not reach the fuel system (injectors). I read into this that it shouldn't reach the injectors in suspension (through the use of an emulsifier). Being an engineer, I surmise that at 23000 psi the water doesn't lubricate and it acts as a cutting agent. I also read elsewhere that when the water changes state (from water to steam) it can damage the tip of the injector.


Along the lines of having choices from different suppliers - I wish that the suppliers who recommend other products here (kennedy and avlube) would pressure the other vendors (primrose, etc.) into offering a version of the products with a demulsifier.


jeff


Edited by: dmax lover

Regarding pressuring vendors to make a demulsifying addtive; I am afraid we will be seeing three guys riding camels from the East before Primrose and FPPF would produce a demulsifying addtive for vehicle use. Primrose DOES manufacture a demusifying addtive for commercial use in large tanks. As we have discussed in previous posts, it IS advantageous to promote free water settle out, especially in large storage tanks. These tanks are equipped with bottom water drains and some (very few, however)suppliers use the additive to accelerate free water settle.
Primrose's view is that once diesel fuel is put into a dynamic, vibrating fuel system, water will go into loose emulsion and must be locked into emulsion chemically. Their view is unchangeable.....
George Morrison

Seems pretty cut and dried to me. If GM recommends against an emulsifier, then I'm not going to use it. I'm sure Primrose will not pick up my warranty if GM drops it.


73, Hans/MN

Again, my point is exactly that.. There are currently 2 6.5TD's and one Duramax sitting out behind one of our local Chevy dealers in that fuel system warranty has been denied. In all three cases visible corrosion was present in their fuel systems. In each case, service is recommending replacement of the complete fuel system.
The owners must foot the complete bill. They followed GM's recommendation to not use a fuel additive..
George Morrison

Again, my point is exactly that.





George,





Your point isn't clear to me..... Are you positing that we SHOULD use the Primrose product, even though GM recommends AGAINST emulsifying additives?





Hans

If memory serves me correctly, John Deere's fuel conditioner is Stanadyne, just marketed in their bottle. It says Stanadyne on the back of the bottle in small print. Their should be a J.D. dealer pretty close to most everyone, they have a good dealer network.

OK guys..here we go again (might as well keep this thread goin')


I called CRC technical and they tell me this aviex product i got disperses moisture, has no alcohol .She states its a Demulsifier. If she is correct, it sounds like this stuff is ok to use in my precious DMAX. On the flip side..my container for power service says nothing about alcohol, weather it contains it or not...it states on the bottle..disperses water, cleans injectors, deices systems, and reliquifies gelled fuel...$#%^&*@## ...*%^^$..#$%#$damn http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gifhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gifhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gif this is defintely playing with my emotions


now what???Edited by: bob camire

Question for the scientists..Will an emulsifier and a demulsifier both disperse water ??

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifOnce again the post from the Power Service guy:





It is neither. There is not enough room in the container to put an effective
water dispersant. If you have a water or water related problem you should
use the Diesel 911 to get the water under control and then continue to use
the Diesel Kleen.

Emulsifiers are not recommended and demulsifers will not work in a general
use additive. To solubilize water you have to use a large amount of an
additive to effectively take care of the water problem. Multi purpose
additives cannot contain a strong lubricity, detergent, cetane boost,
corrosion and stability package and sill have room to carry the necessary
chemical to control water.

I gave all the details so that you and other consumers will realize that
there are a lot of additives making strong claims about how their additive
does everything and take care of water too. Once you have the details, you
can make a better choice, get more for your money and not be mislead by
inflated claims.

Sincerely,

Brian Wilson
Technical Support
Power Service Products, Inc.






Why use a additive if it doesn't do anything for water??





As for emulsify or de??? I go with George's recomendations.





He says emulsify, I use Total Power, he says Primrose but then he sells that stuff too. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

FPPF FuelPower (active ingredient in Total Power) WILLL remove water on a 1:1 basis. I have done the test myself, and it flat out works.





THE KEY HERE IS PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE! EVERY DROP OF FUEL IN MY DIESELS GETS CONDITIONED WITH TOTAL POWER. IF THE WATER IS NOT ALLOWED TO BUILD UP, IT CANNOT HARM YOU...





If you want an additive to raise hell with your warranty, I think 911 would do it! Personally, I wouldn't put any Power Service product in anyything but my waste oil container. That is my OPINION...

Well, I was planning just to read this thread and stay out of it, using my FPPF on every tank. However, after reading several of the pro and con positions, I have to ask:


GM states that we should demulsify and separate water


They state that free water SHOULD NOT reach our injectors


We know from experience that the OEM Racor filter is not very effective for contaminant removal and apparently has poor efficiency for separating and alarming free water.


Therefore, I ask the reasonable question that:


If free water is deadly for our injection systems- why would you EVER voluntarily treat your fuel with an additive that will SEPARATE and CREATE free water in your system? Talk about your Catch-22!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I plan to continue to emulsify to allow what minimal entrained water my system inevitably contains will be passed and processed at the molecular level rather than encourage and suffer the unavoidable damage that free water will UNDOUBTABLY cause to my fuel filter canister AND my pump and injectors - because face it folks, we KNOW that the OEM fuel filter is NOT a 100% EFFICIENT WATER SEPARATOR!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

I use Rotella DFA. It contains no alcohol and is a demulsifer. Works fine and is easily obtained. Edited by: MaChInE

To re-review for new site members. We have completed 30+ "before & after" fuel analysis and in every single case the amount of entrained water "before" the OEM filter/water separator was exactly the same, or in several cases actually higher(!), for both untreated fuel and fuel that had been treated with demulsifying addtives.
In one case where the "after" water separator reflected an increase in entrained water, it was found that the user had purchased a tank of diesel that contained a significant amount of water which actually did separate some of the free water; the separator was then feeding the separated water back into the fuel system slowly.. (well, not so slowly actually: the water level tripled "after"!)
In the work we have accomplished to date the conclusion is that the water separator is very inefectual. Thus, experientially, (also called 30+ years of scar tissue you know where from dealing with diesel fuel/water issues, failed injector pumps/injectors, authorizing large checks to be written for same, etc.) my position is that it is better to proactively emulsify normal entrained water levels to prevent free water fallout anywhere in the fuel system. A large amount of water (or slug) will be beyond the normal emulsifying capabilities of diesel fuel additives and then may (?) be dealt with via the water separator...
George Morrison

George, Brand new to this forum and in reading all of these posts I have to admit I am confused. I will be leaving for a trip from Wisconsin to California pulling my toy hauler loaded with ATV's for some fun in the sand. Last year was the first trip and I did not use any additives, but saw a lot of people putting in additive during the trip. My trip starts on December 17th and I return on the 31st, will be taking interstate 35 and 40 all the way and only buy my diesel fuel at Flying J's or Petro stations so I hope that given all of the 18 wheelers that the fuel I get is ok. Now since this is the dead of winter and I dont want to get stuck along the way, what additive do you or the others recomend, of course I need to find one I can actually get in time so mail order is maybe not the right way to go for me...

Primrose 409 (winter/-30 cloud/cetane boost/water emulsifer/rust preventive/injector cleaner is available at www.avlube.com.
Order one day, receive two days later, plenty of time for your Dec 17 departure... Plus there is FPPF which you can purchase at other sites or may find locally.
George

You can find Shell Rotella DFA at truckstops. Rotella has a lookup on their website to find locations that stock rotella products, look here...


http://www.rotella.com/wheretobuy/wheretobuy_truckstops.html


There is a rotella forum with a few posts/questions on the product. Looks like good stuff...


jeff