My 97 Crewcab 3500 4x4 has a plowframe where you guys are letting the ATA intercoolers go "commando". I use my truck on a farm (offroad, but not mudbugging) and snow plowing so I can't in good conscience hang an unprotected intercooler (plus no room to begin with) up front.

My buddy bought a ATW intercooler for another project that didn't pan out. So...... after a few drinks and some horsetrading I am now the proud owner of a brand new "1000 HP" bright polished aluminum 14"x14"x4.5" ATW interccooler with 3" I/O. It's gorgeous, looks like the polished "bug catchers" on the race cars. I've got a VW electric water pump, 2 electric fans to wire in place (one switch will turn it all on), and a radiator to mount under the cab or bed.
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/2701966329308080_1.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BIG-Liquid-Water-to-Air-Racing-Intercooler-SUPERCOOLING_W0QQitemZ270196632930QQihZ017QQcatego ryZ33742QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/2601813731558080_1.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-BOSCH-Electric-Water-Pump-92-05-Beetle-Golf_W0QQitemZ260181373155QQihZ016QQcategoryZ33604 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p163 8.m118) http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:BO1ZWEb3KGYyJM:http://www.innerauto.com/includes/images/Inner_Auto/Jeep_Parts/Jeep_Parts/Jeep_Grnd_CherkRad1.JPG (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.innerauto.com/includes/images/Inner_Auto/Jeep_Parts/Jeep_Parts/Jeep_Grnd_CherkRad1.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.innerauto.com/Jeep_Parts/Jeep_Grand_Cherokee_Parts/Jeep_Grand_Cherokee_Radiators/&h=189&w=235&sz=8&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=BO1ZWEb3KGYyJM:&tbnh=88&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcar%2Bradiator%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX)http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/2302049089878080_1.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PROCOMP-10-INCH-ELECTRIC-RADIATOR-THERMO-COOLING-FAN_W0QQitemZ230204908987QQihZ013QQcategoryZ33600Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/2302049089878080_1.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PROCOMP-10-INCH-ELECTRIC-RADIATOR-THERMO-COOLING-FAN_W0QQitemZ230204908987QQihZ013QQcategoryZ33600Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)= WOW!


Its got heater hose size coolant lines, as does the waterpump, and I've cobbed up heater hose to radiator hose adapters before.

So, where to mount it?

My younger days are prompting me to have that beauty poking up thru my hood with some bright colored tubes. The tubes would be short, additional airflow flow providing more cooling, and WOW factor!

My more practical side says "down under" but at that point I could just stick a ATA under the cab with the fans on it, no?

Maybe hog out the hood and quickie mount a "Cowl Induction" style hoodscoop? My truck is state truck yellow with some added black accents to break it up. So a black scoop? Removable?
http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/3201959493428080_1.jpg (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Summit-471510-Hood-Scoop-Cowl-Induction-27-3-4-in-Long_W0QQitemZ320195949342QQihZ011QQcategoryZ42611 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p163 8.m118)

Any input? Drawbacks?

One last thing, what size is the original turbo pipe outlet (what size pipe kit and/or reducers do I need to get this mounted) ?

Thanks, and easy on the ribbing!! :duh:

Stock size should be 2.5". I did the Pennisular diesel intake and it was 3". So I got a 2.5"-3" reducer and put that right at the turbo and then ran 3" the rest of the way. You could do a cowl hood or scoop like a few others have done on here. Good luck and keep us posted on progress.

I'm jealous. But I'm still gonna help ya out, just because it a mod I'm planning on doing eventually, and I wanna see how this works for ya.
If it were myself doing it, I'd remove the original clutch fan, and start looking at a way to get the intercooler radiator in front of the original rad, then hook up the 2 electric fans as pullers, so that means, longer mounts, and making the original engine rad hoses shorter, and wiring up the fans. Run nessary lines, hook up pump, and don't forget to have plumbed in some sort of reservoir to store the water after being cooled, and before it goes to the intercooler. A good spot for the intercooler itself would be around the driverside valve cover, that way all you have to do is turn your upper intake 180 degrees, and then just run longer tubing from the turbo to the intercooler, then from the intercooler to the intake.

Good luck, and keep us informed as to how it works out

If you are doing an intercooler for towing I wouldn't go with electric fans. It has been discussed on here quite a bit about not having electric fans for towing. I just went on flex-a-lites website and it says it there as well. The best fan for towing is the mechanical fan with HD fan clutch and that you can use a electric to supplement the factory fan. If you are towing in warm weather I wouldn't want the extra heat exchanger in front of my radiator either. If you are just using the truck for playing or don't tow much, it would probably be easier to just do water/methanol.

Please keep in mind that the 2nd radiator and electric pump & fans are basically a secondary cooling system for only the WTA. NOT for cooling the engine.

Do you think bed mount radiator and electric fans going to be ok? I don't have room at grill for the second radiator. Otherwise I'd just do an ATA intercooler there. My thought is to run the ATW secondary radiator under the bed (lots of room) at a roughly 35 angle with the fans on the front side in a "push cold air" configuration.

I thought it might be light, constantly cooling the heated intake charge at above normal temps (engine 200 degrees vs intake charge of ? degrees). But with the large volume of coolant, large car sized radiator and 2 elecric fans.... You think it won't keep up with heat transfer?

That should be fine. But the previous post was about moving the factory rad. back, install the ATW rad. and running the elctric fans. I think that is a bad idea if you are going to work the truck. In bed to cool the ATW set up I think would be fine. It should be enough capacity and if it isn't you can always plumb in a reservoir.

I would ditch that rad and use some HD oil coolers......that's how I am going to do it this time around....last time I used small trans coolers and they didn't quite cool the water enough....just my 2 cents from having been down this road before (and on it again)...

R85SUB - Gotcha. Had to reread to catch your meaning. I'll leave the engine cooling system intact.

Chris - Radiator is free (and in hand) so in it goes.

Just need to get tubing and a cheapy Cowl Hood Scoop. And some of bendable mounting "straps". Where can I find those?

I'll take some pic's, if anyone's interested I'll post them.

Putting the IC in the bed is do-able, but the length of the plumbing could cause a lot of turbo-lag. I'm not sure on this but maybe someone with more experience with IC's could ring in.

Nick

Putting the IC in the bed is do-able, but the length of the plumbing could cause a lot of turbo-lag. I'm not sure on this but maybe someone with more experience with IC's could ring in.

Nick

He's talking about putting a 2nd rad that is strictly for heat exchange of the intercooler circulating system, under the bed, intercooler under hood.... If I understand right. As long as it's somewhere where it'll actually see airflow, it should work, the extended plumbing should only serve as more of a heat exchange, as long as the pump is up to the task.

I agree with you MNick, that's why I'm going ATW.

I've got no room for an ATA up front, and I'm afraid I'd have turbo lag with an ATA IC relocated in back (not to mention the cost of all that tubing).

The radiator for the ATW intercooler is going back there and the intercooler itself is going under the cowl hood scoop I'm picking up. The short tube lengths to the top of engine should keep turbo lag to a minimum. And it doesn't doesn't matter how far I run the liquid coolant lines (heater hoses). The more coolant volume the better, I would believe.

I agree, as long as the pump can move it and it actually cools, who cares where it is, you could run some cross braces from framerail to framerail , and lay it down. Maybe where the spare tire goes if you don't use the factory spare mount, I've spent a few hours in that area under my truck for the tail lights, and it's a huge unused chunk of real estate. Then you could run the heater hose along the frame rail, and keep it out of harms way.

I have been looking into this same thing. The only suggestion i have since you will be driving distances longer than a few miles is to have a tank that would hold at least 5 gallons so if you ever pull a load up a hill you won't heat up the water in the system so fast.

Length of tubing isn't going to noticably increase turbo lag. Not that it matters in this case.

I think you have a sound idea. Infact, it's pretty similar to what I want to do!

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Bill

sounds like that would work for me. Good idea.

No one local has this stuff, so I purchased a 3" kit and 2 reducers off Ebay. Probably won't arrive til after the holidays. I'll take some pic's as I do it.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!

I don't agree w/ the comment about the length of tubing not effecting turbo lag. The greater the diameter and longer the length, the more volume that will need to be raised as pressure increases-which is turbo lag. The idea is to choose a pipe diameter which is appropriate for your needs including length of run and type of IC (including efficiency of unit)

The heat exchanger needs to be close to the engine so you'll need a hood scoop for clearance. The "radiator" can go where you please as your using fans to pull air across it. Fans would probably need a relay to carry the amps and a pressure switch to activate the relay when the boost comes up. With maybe an override button to keep the fans on full time in certain situations. Maybe a water mister on the "radiator" during the summer months. Storage tank to put the dry ice in, to super cool it.

Dry ice again? Lol!

Good thought on the relay. It will be running the two fans and water pump, so it probably would be too much to run it all through a regular toggle switch.

I've decided to have it sit where the plastic "hat" used to be, to minimize piping, lag, etc. It's 4.5" thick so I'm going to open up the hood a little to fit it there. I've also decided to cover it with a cowl hood scoop. WOW factor will be open hood only.

My question (at this point) is, any drawback to opening up the cowl hood scoop and making it functional?

I see advantages - heat escape from engine compartment, perhaps some extra flow across the ATW IC to help cool the intake charge, etc.

Are there any drawbacks? Moisture in engine bay? Others?

The dry ice will be saved for cooling the beverages!!

I don't agree w/ the comment about the length of tubing not effecting turbo lag. The greater the diameter and longer the length, the more volume that will need to be raised as pressure increases-which is turbo lag. The idea is to choose a pipe diameter which is appropriate for your needs including length of run and type of IC (including efficiency of unit)

Ditto on this statement. I was a respiratory therapist in a previous life (2 years ago), and "compressible volume" is a huge factor in ventilator circuits that deliver small breaths (neonatal and pediatric circuits. The breaths are large enough in adults that we simply calculate the losses.). I've seen the tremendous difference in performance of a circuit with a small compressible volume vs. a circuit with a larger compressible volume. The more volume there is to compress, the more the patient's breath gets lost in the circuit. We used to have to dial up the delivered volume to be sure we got enough air to the person attached to the receiving end if we used an adult heater on a pediatric patient. This was not entirely due to the flexible circuit tubing; rigid spaces (like the heater) affected delivered volume just as much. Compressible volume is the reason neonatal ventilator circuits measure exhaled breath volume right at the patient, instead of back at the ventilator like an adult circuit does. You can read the delivered volume at the ventilator, and read the returned volume from the patient at the patient sensor. ...big difference, especially with lots of "compressible volume" in the circuit.

I think the same principles apply to pressurized engine intake circuits as well.

pic

pic

That's bee-yoo-ti-ul. I want one if it works. Since it's just air going through the cooler, not liquid, it shouldn't be affected by gravity like an AC condenser, so vertical placement shouldn't be necessary. I just wonder about the cooling efficiency of water vs. an AtA cooler in the front. ...need to keep the water temp at ambient temperature, less than ambient would be better.

clippped


My question (at this point) is, any drawback to opening up the cowl hood scoop and making it functional?

I see advantages - heat escape from engine compartment, perhaps some extra flow across the ATW IC to help cool the intake charge, etc.

Are there any drawbacks? Moisture in engine bay? Others?



I use to think this but read many times A true functioning GM style cowl hood pushes air into the engine compartment used mostly for the intake air path. The windshield at appreciable speed makes the base of windshield a higher pressure area. The center of the hood is actually negative pressure on outside. So its not going to allow heat to escape. Draw back is if you don't seal it to intake its going to increase pressure under the hood a little and reduce air flow through the stack a little. Albiet a little.

I don't agree w/ the comment about the length of tubing not effecting turbo lag. The greater the diameter and longer the length, the more volume that will need to be raised as pressure increases-which is turbo lag. The idea is to choose a pipe diameter which is appropriate for your needs including length of run and type of IC (including efficiency of unit)

I was able to prove that there is a 1.5 second increase if you install the intercooler between the frame rails, use 2.5" tubing, run in the fenderwells. The graph proving this is on the other site.

Wow. I noticed no difference at all after doing mine. A second and a half is a long time. My boost starts building pretty much right off idle. Maybe a restrictive intercooler and small tubing causing a lag in boost because it has to over come restriction before it can build pressure in the intake manifold. The set-up I am running I noticed no lag at all. I am using a peninsular intake and 3" inercooler and tubing. My boost gauge comes off zero by the time I hit 1500 RPM.

Wow. I noticed no difference at all after doing mine. A second and a half is a long time. My boost starts building pretty much right off idle. Maybe a restrictive intercooler and small tubing causing a lag in boost because it has to over come restriction before it can build pressure in the intake manifold. The set-up I am running I noticed no lag at all. I am using a peninsular intake and 3" inercooler and tubing. My boost gauge comes off zero by the time I hit 1500 RPM.

It is a LARGE intercooler (24X12x3). There is boost. But I stand by the work. The data collected by the accelerometers speaks volumes. If you have access to the other site, read it and look at the graphs. I can't post it because no longer own the rights to it.

Not to insult you, but you must beware of the seat of the pants dyno.

Not to insult you, but you must beware of the seat of the pants dyno.

I'm not pickin on anyone either, but as long as it makes my rear feel good, who cares, I'm not out to make a bullet out of the 6.5, I just want a kick in her ass to wake it up. But I'm glad to see that there are people with more time and money then what I have :D

What's the other site? All I know is my boost starts building at the same RPM it did before, my truck tows our toyhauler 10 times better on hot days than before, and my IAT's dropped at least 150 degrees on a 100 degree day. I was getting up over 300 IAT on 100 degree day, and after the highest I've seen is about 160.

Here's pic. And sorry for low quality picture (cell phone)
http://by106w.bay106.mail.live.com/***/GetAttachment.aspx?tnail=0&messageId=e1667d2e-2a61-4b6f-bddd-471dcccddc5c&Aux=4|0|8CA43B98A33B030| (http://by106w.bay106.mail.live.com/mail/ReadMessageLight.aspx?Action=ScanAttachment&AllowUnsafeContentOverride=False&AttachmentIndex=0&AttachmentDepth=0&FolderID=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&InboxSortAscending=False&InboxSortBy=Date&IsMessageSafe=True&MessageCodePage=1252&ReadMessageId=e1667d2e-2a61-4b6f-bddd-471dcccddc5c&n=1331737170)



I've got it installed and did a week of testing with it.

Makes a big difference in sustained boost (up long grades, full throttle, with big plow on).

Radiator looked good but kept leaking so I went to 2 tranny coolers (each one with it's own fan). During testing, I ran only 1 cooler in front of grill with no fan. It was blocked by plow and still held the torque way longer than witout the ATW intercooler. I anticipate even greater returns with the 2 coolers and fans.

Only trouble is that I have a boost leak that I can't nail down. I'm sure it's at a junction in the piping where I had to trim the pipes to fit and no longer have the sealing lip to help contain boost. I'll find it, but til then I only get around 7lbs no matter how much I crank up my homemade turbomaster.

Stock hood closes under pressure, but I plan on adding the large cowl hoodscoop mentioned earlier to let it breathe (and to rid the vibration of the hood rubbing on the intercooler).

Mods and costs so far:
Loosen bolts and rotate turbo.............................Free 5 minutes
Extended EGR hose to fit rotated turbo................$10 5 minutes
Remove plenum, rotate 180', shorten
output pipe to clear wiper motor.........................Free half hour
Extend sensor wiring for rotated plenum...............Free 10 minutes
Run tubing, mount intercooler............................$100 couple hours
Intercooler (normal cost $110)...........................Free
Electric VW water pump(used)...........................$25
Tranny coolers ($30 each)................................$60
Fans ($15 each)............................................. $30
Tranny hoses............................................. ....$20
Coolant .................................................. ......$10

Hmmm..... not so "almost free" anymore!! :eek: LOL, what project ever is!

I'll check back in when all buttoned up

So that's 255$
Still much less then Kennedy's intercooler kit at 1400$

That and I can't see the pic :confused:

I am planning on installing a wta system. I am going to install my water under the cowl induction hood scoop and mount my electric fan on top of it in my scoop. Why not do this? This will get you air without fan on at road speed and either hook fan to temp sender or just switch for cooling at low speeds. mount the atw rad like chrisk1500 off to the side so you have room for rad hanging from underside of hood.

to help find your boost leak you can make up a solution that at my work we call snoop and spray it on all of your pressurised parts. take washer fluid and fill up a spray bottle and then add a big squirt of dish soap and mix it up. when you spray it any thing that is leaking will make bubbles. I also add glycol to mine at work it makes it stick better but it works with out if you dont have any. snoop also works wonders if your air compressor has a leak and you need to find it.

Here it is again: