I just read that the new D-Max will use urea as a catalyst to meet the new diesel emissions standards. If this is true, will it be like Mercedes' BLUETEC diesels? If that's so, it's gonna suck when that urea runs dry and the truck quits.

What is urea? Cannot find the thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueTec

Interesting................. All I can say is it aint looking good on all this crap they are putting on the newer diesels.

pee in the tank... get back in and drive!

pee in the tank... get back in and drive!
Nice and handy on long road trips, no more being stuck with empty bottles that are rolling around in the back seat!

why would the truck quit if it runs dry? Wouldn't you just not be running as clean any more? I guess I don't follow the whole process.

Nice and handy on long road trips, no more being stuck with empty bottles that are rolling around in the back seat!


LMFAO, now.... it sure gives a new meaning to #2 only.... or am I the only one to find that funny?:D

Urea is a form of nitrogen in a dry form. We spread it over the top and work it in. It's a decent form of N for Corn but it's kinda pricey.

why would the truck quit if it runs dry? Wouldn't you just not be running as clean any more? I guess I don't follow the whole process.
EPA mandate.

That's why the EPA initially with-held approval of M-B's BlueTec system. EPA demanded a way to make sure the system was operational, because this was the first emission control system that had to be regularly refilled by the user.

I expect that the "fluid out" interlock will involve more than just a fluid level sensor. Otherwise it would be too easy to fill the urea tank with somethinglike water.

Do a google on Duramax 4.5L. GM will use the Urea methods to help clean the exhaust. Mecedes uses the BlueTec.........they are essentially the same thing; but GM will not join in the "BlueTec" naming. You will find the current GM plan calls for refiling your Urea bucket at every oil change.

Now go look up a current "window sticker" to a 2008 Dodge Diesel 2500 (at a local dealer - you can pull it from the web too). You will notice a "BlueTec" surcharge of $995 in addition to the cost of the diesel engine and transmission. Even so Dodge 2500HD diesel is about $8,000 less then the current GM Duramax 2500HD.........because GM is not "yet" using the "Urea" (their BlueTec).......that is one reason GM is currently charging a major premium for their diesel over Dodge and Ford. And the GM (currently) gets about 30%-60% better MPG than Dodge or Ford.

There are also YouTube videos on the Duramax 4.5L GM claims there is a $600 savings in the new engine...........but remember there will be a charge for everything else..........Urea, SCR, DPF, Blue/Green Fluid, loss of MPG.........etc etc etc.

Functionally, there is no "real reason" a diesel V-8 should cost more than a gas V-8.......say within $500 of each other.........but a $8,000 to $10,000 premium? If GM, Ford, Dodge do not understand this..........then even with dozens and dozens of mistakes to be made by Toyota; they could still easily end up "owning" the diesel market too.

Eaton Corporation was close to making this work without Urea.................but that could be dead? Other companies claim they be close to meeting 2010 standards without Urea as well...........it is true there is a LOT of room for improvement.

Mercedes charges $1,000 for the diesel option on their E series. What I want to know is why it costs $7,500 from GM. If they really want the 4.5 to go over, GM will price it right with a minimum charge and play up the mileage and clean emissions (for the treehuggers) and power for the rest of the world.
JMHO

When the urea runs out, how do you replace it? Is it liquid, powder, in a canister of some sort?

When you're referring to the technology that Mercedes is already using, how often do you have to refill your urea (weekly?? yearly?? last the lifetime of the automobile??) and is it expensive??

Is this something I could get excited about for a practical use of all that used beer I have to dispose of now?

When the urea runs out, how do you replace it? Is it liquid, powder, in a canister of some sort?

When you're referring to the technology that Mercedes is already using, how often do you have to refill your urea (weekly?? yearly?? last the lifetime of the automobile??) and is it expensive??

Is this something I could get excited about for a practical use of all that used beer I have to dispose of now?


Just get as much protein in your system as possible and piss in the urea tank

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-urea.htm

You boys think the GM pricing is bad on the diesel... look at tow boats w/ the Diesel Option.

Mastercraft - $25K (remember this is just the motor)

I was working w/ a local dealer to get a diesel in a Tige, b/c it just so happens that the dealer is the manuf. of this particular supercharged diesel. He's been working w/ Tige to get this as a factory option, but he was going to knock a couple grand off in order to make it work and get some out there. Pricing comes back.... $12K. Retail... probably closer to $18K.

I think the session option is about $16K.

It's almost as if the manufacturers aren't giving you credit for the gasser your not putting in.

I've said it before and people balked... The 1500 with a diesel would be a viable option (for me anyhow) if it wasn't the same price as a 2500HD. I guarantee once the premium for the diesel is added, you'll be looking at a $38-40k 1/2 ton truck that is either on par with or only slightly less than the 6.6 price wise for a similarly equipped truck.

On topic: I wonder how long until the 3/4 ton and larger trucks are using urea injection to control emissions.

It appears Germany started with the OTR trucks.

And Bluepee costs about the same as diesel currently. Usage is advertised at about 5% Bluepee to diesel. So just over a gallon per normal refueling.

If it keeps diesels available, I guess it's a good thing, but hopefully they will come up with a more passive system. Perhaps a catalyst mixed in the fuel? Or a system that actually regenerates the Bluepee stuff.

I keep hearing you guys mentioning then we'll be up to $40K for a 1/2 ton. Has anyone even priced trucks lately.

MSRP's below are very close approximations
Fully loaded Silverado 1/2 ton - $41,000
Fully loaded Duramax - $52,000
Fully loaded Tundra - $47,000
Fully loaded F150 - $41,000
Fully loaded Denali pickup - $46,000

Sorry guys, but the 1/2 tons are already well over the $40K mark. Of course, you can get them quite a bit cheaper than that.

I keep hearing you guys mentioning then we'll be up to $40K for a 1/2 ton. Has anyone even priced trucks lately.

MSRP's below are very close approximations
Fully loaded Silverado 1/2 ton - $41,000
Fully loaded Duramax - $52,000
Fully loaded Tundra - $47,000
Fully loaded F150 - $41,000
Fully loaded Denali pickup - $46,000

Sorry guys, but the 1/2 tons are already well over the $40K mark. Of course, you can get them quite a bit cheaper than that.

Exactly. So if we could get the diesel option in a bare bones truck, we may be able to stay under $40k.

Perhaps a catalyst mixed in the fuel? .


I mentioned that last week.

That said there are other technologies that are coming down the pipe that will probably negate that avenue .

I remember reading that a Japanese company developed a diesel catalyst that was 100%self sufficient and didn't require a particulate purging system. I believe that the whole urea fiasco is just a bandaid until they can come up with something better. Why is the EPA trying to make up for the last 100 years of poor pollution management in 10 years of automotive development? F them, I'm never selling my LB7.

I remember reading that a Japanese company developed a diesel catalyst that was 100%self sufficient and didn't require a particulate purging system. I believe that the whole urea fiasco is just a bandaid until they can come up with something better. Why is the EPA trying to make up for the last 100 years of poor pollution management in 10 years of automotive development? F them, I'm never selling my LB7.
x2, and never selling my lly.

I think they are posing a serious risk of creating a market for the next generation of commercial gasoline engines.

With the higher RPM, they will not last as long, but if the diesel engines keep getting more complex, that might not be an issue, the price will be a wash.

Today, you can get 2 gas engines for the price of the diesel option. So if one gas engine lasts 200,000mi, then suddenly it starts to make economic sense.

The tree huggers are freaking clueless. The best way to cut emissions is to burn less fuel. Something a diesel already excels at. Making a diesel financially unworkable due to emissions limitations will be a stupid manuever.

I think they are posing a serious risk of creating a market for the next generation of commercial gasoline engines.

With the higher RPM, they will not last as long, but if the diesel engines keep getting more complex, that might not be an issue, the price will be a wash.

Today, you can get 2 gas engines for the price of the diesel option. So if one gas engine lasts 200,000mi, then suddenly it starts to make economic sense.

The tree huggers are freaking clueless. The best way to cut emissions is to burn less fuel. Something a diesel already excels at. Making a diesel financially unworkable due to emissions limitations will be a stupid manuever.

And that is exactly why this engine is 10 years to late.

I remember reading that a Japanese company developed a diesel catalyst that was 100% self sufficient and didn't require a particulate purging system.
Honda's new US diesels supposedly will meet the 2010 regs with a system that generates ammonia through a chemical reaction, eliminating the need for urea injection. But they still have the DPF.

http://world.honda.com/news/2006/c060925DieselEngine/

Sometimes they can get away with stuff like that for small engines but not for larger engines, since they all have to meet the same standard, and a small engine produces less exhaust, and (all else being equal) less pollution than a large one. Remember that when most US automakers had to start using catalytic converters in the 1970s, Honda was able meet the new emission standard with their CVCC technology on their smaller engines (for a few years, until even tighter standards caught up with them).

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember reading an article in a Diesel Power or Diesel World about some sort of filter that Cummins had developed that used exotic metals instead of urea to clean up the NOx. I will look around and see what I can find.

Here's a link to what I was talking about, look at pages 13 and 14

http://www.cargroup.org/pdfs/CAR%20WHITE%20PAPER_Final%20_Mar04.pdf

Mercedes charges $1,000 for the diesel option on their E series.


Gee, when I first started driving Mercedes diesels in the early 70s, the diesel was the CHEAPEST Mercedes (and fuel was 19 cents a gallon).

[quote=crashpilot;2229233]
When you're referring to the technology that Mercedes is already using, how often do you have to refill your urea (weekly?? yearly?? last the lifetime of the automobile??) and is it expensive??
[quote]

Urea is only replaced by the dealer - period - for the Mercedes BluTec. Not owner serviceable. It's a maintenance service item - if I remember correctly - Every 7,500 miles. For those of us who work on our own MB diesels, it's been a big sore point.

[quote=BERK;2232414]I remember reading that a Japanese company developed a diesel catalyst that was 100%self sufficient and didn't require a particulate purging system. I believe that the whole urea fiasco is just a bandaid until they can come up with something better. quote]

The Japanese automakers are working on a self sufficient system, but from what I understand, have not conquered it yet.

[The Japanese automakers are working on a self sufficient system, but from what I understand, have not conquered it yet.[/quote]

Honda has the self-sufficient particulate purging system. Wonder who will pay them a licensing fee to use it.

[The Japanese automakers are working on a self sufficient system, but from what I understand, have not conquered it yet.

Honda has the self-sufficient particulate purging system. Wonder who will pay them a licensing fee to use it.[/quote]

I've heard (FWIW) that although they have developed it in the lab, they have not found a way to make it feasible for production. Fuel cells work great in the lab (too) but not in real life...

I hate to sound like a whiny Canadian farmer but if they are going to be using a lot of urea in new diesels that is just going to be another price increase for us. The price of fertilizer is already outragoues.

so you cant just fill the tank up with anything? id fil the urea tank with 2 stroke oil lol keep the emisions flowin.

Urea can be either a solid or a liquid depending upon 2 things. Concentration and Temperature. The more dilute the urea, the lower the salt out temperature. Liquid 70% urea starts to solidify at 134 degree F and 40% urea starts to solidify at 32 degrees F. I assume that the urea is going to be 30% to 40%.

Where are people going to buy urea?

I happen to work at a place that makes High Quality Urea specifically for NOx abatement. We make 70% Urea but do special mixes for customers which are usually power plants. They need it during the summer months.

We also make, yesterday's numbers, 1341.65 tons of >99.5% Anhydrous Ammonia, 319.47 tons of >99.85% Methanol, 955 tons of 32% Urea Ammonium Nitrate (UAN), 64 tons of 70% Urea and Carbon Dioxide which is a by product of our process.

I can try to answer any questions about urea that anyone might have.

Also, 98% Urea (granular) is about $450 per ton so getting a couple gallons of 30 or 40% urea should not be too bad.

we are testin 2 trucks with urea...guys just waite it will get better...we have only seen the begining.....DPF is fun enough.......now SCR......

Maybe it is just me but fertilizer and diesel don't mix well together. I know Urea is just N I put it on my hayfields, but I would think it would make some sort of reaction if actual diesel mixed with it.

I did a search an found a nice illustration on Diesel Exhaust SCR's. Check out page 2.

http://www.terraindustries.com/our_products/urea/terracair/terracair_brochure.pdf

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but companies can meet the 2010 EPA requirements without urea, however it requires a larger after treatment device. These devices contain platinum, which is pricey. So urea is a cheaper alternative to this...

However getting a system of urea on the US roads will be difficult. The larger mfg's are working on convincing the gov. for the need for this.

I'm currently working for Detroit Diesel, and this gets brought up quite a bit. Hopefully the semi truck industry will pave the way for light duty.

Also, someone mentioned that if the urea runs low the truck would shut off... not going to happen. What they'll do is detune the truck so it functions in a "limp" mode so it's a pain in the ass to drive until you "filler up".

I also hope they can come up with a better solution than urea, hopefully that happens.

Urea tis a pain in the ass, it freezes when its too cold, becomes acidic when warm, and boils when hot. On a truck means ya gotta find a place to shove another multiple gallon storage container. Also, forget about being able to trick it easily with water/such, the EPA isn't gonna let the user off that easy. They don't even want the user to have to interact with the vehicle for an emission component. Since they do have to interact for technological limits at the moment, the EPA will mandate extra precautions be taken by manufacturers to make the sure the system can't be fooled easily.

All this really adds up to is more cost being added to the vehicle.

Urea solidifies at a very high temp but urea liquor comes in a variety of concentrations. Typically, 70% UL solidifies at 134 F bot 32.5% is going to be used in the SCR which has a saltout temp of 13 F. So, for most people the lower temp will not be a problem but for those who will be affected, there will likely be a heater in the tank. But if the urea gets too hot, Biuret can be formed but I don't think this will be an issue with 32.5% UL.

Diesel + Urea..... Who would of thought???? Brings back memories of Oklahoma City and that lunatic Timothy McVeigh.

We are here from the Government-----------------we are here to HELP YOU!!!!!!!! You talk about politics and getting greased!!!!!!!!

hearing all of this sucks. i was so excited to get a small diesel like this but now i am just plain turned off. they are killing all the great aspects of diesels.

Functionally, there is no "real reason" a diesel V-8 should cost more than a gas V-8.......say within $500 of each other.........but a $8,000 to $10,000 premium? If GM, Ford, Dodge do not understand this..........then even with dozens and dozens of mistakes to be made by Toyota; they could still easily end up "owning" the diesel market too.

Shows how much you know. Tell me, does a gas engine have a high pressure pump? Does it have 2 high pressure fuel rails? Does it have a dozen or so high pressure lines? Does it have 8 high pressure injectors? Does it routinely have to withstand 660 ft-lbs of torque?

Heres Even A More Simple Approach. Put Up Any Hot Rod Catalog. Look At The Price Difference Alone Between Forged Internals (pistons Rods And Crank Shaft) Then Figure Your Turbocharger, Intercooler, High Pressure Fuel Pump,injectors. Factor In What That Alone Cost Over A Gas Engine. There Are Waaaaaaay More Parts That Cot A Lot More Then What I Just Mentioned.

Urea is only replaced by the dealer - period - for the Mercedes BluTec. Not owner serviceable. It's a maintenance service item - if I remember correctly - Every 7,500 miles. For those of us who work on our own MB diesels, it's been a big sore point.

If that's the case, I would never buy one. I refuse to be hand tied by the dealership.

I guarantee the aftermarket will find a way to bypass the urea system. No matter what the EPA tries to do to prevent it.

this emissions bs needs to stop really, global warming is a joke, cars are not causing global warming people, let the emissions flow... im so glad i live in Florida were we dont test emissions.

The GM system will not require the dealer to service, the consumer will be able to re-fill the system easily.

this emissions bs needs to stop really, global warming is a joke, cars are not causing global warming people, let the emissions flow... im so glad i live in Florida were we dont test emissions.

The problem that Urea injection solves has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with global warming.

Thats right, it is a Nox(No to be specific a smog component, not global warming component) or oxide of Nitrogen suppresent...which from what I read is controversial since in Los Angeles...we get the 'weekend effect'.

That is Nox actually goes UP on the weekend when there is a 90% reduction in big rig diesel truck traffic....which is impossible unless the stupid AQMD is missing something in their model.

I have read from others that claim that the specific No produced by diesel is very unstable and will react with gasoline emissions that causes it to breakdown. Hence the reason why if it is a diesel emission why is going up in the LA basin when most of the trucks are parked on the weekend?

We may not even need it

i live up hear in northeast montana and work for cenex harvest states grain and fertilizer co. and it is seeding & fertilizer season hear and seeing urea prices at anywhere from 550-575 bucks a ton, the fertlilzer companys in cananda where we get our urea from are creating there own shortedge like they usually do, the prices went up about 100 and some dollars a ton from last year what r they gonna do when they start using it in diesel fuel? who knows and where does it end?

This really isn't any better than using corn to make ethanol for gasoline which produces way more pollution and wasted fuel producing and shipping it than they are saving by adding it to fuel.

Seems to me they always come up with solutions that jeopardize another industry, or that look like they are working from one angle but when you step back and have a look they are really making things worse.

exactly

In order for the new diesels to meet the tough 2010 emission standards, a NOx after-treatment called "aqueous urea" will be injected into the hot exhaust stream. While the additive cleans up the tailpipe exhaust, it will also be another fluid the consumer will have to maintain (Manufacturers are promising the "urea tank" will only need replenishing during oil changes)

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/29/epa-mulls-over-urea-injection-rules/
The Environmental Protection Agency is considering a variety of rules that it might apply to urea injection for diesel engines, and is said to be ready to issue rules for such emission-control devices in upcoming weeks. The regulations are expected to address potential issues arising with urea injection, such as the availability of the substance, making sure that the system and its low-fluid-level warning system are tamperproof, and dealing with urea's freezing point of 11F. One of the largest areas of contention between the EPA and automakers involves a proposed interlock between the urea level-monitoring system and the engine that would perhaps disable the starter or lock the vehicle's fuel cap if urea levels drop too low to ensure proper function. Wonderful! Another interlock like the beloved seatbelt-ignition interlock from 1974. - It will be interesting to see how people handle being stranded out in the "booneys" because they can't get their urea tank filled.

What is Urea?
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-urea.htm

Urea, also called carbamide, is an organic chemical compound which essentially is the waste produced when the body metabolizes protein. It is a compound not only produced by humans but also by many other mammals, as well as amphibians and some fish.

Synthetic urea is created from synthetic ammonia and carbon dioxide and can be produced as a liquid or a solid. The process of dehydrating ammonium carbamate under conditions of high heat and pressure to produce urea was first used in 1870 and is still in use today. I wonder how much energy will be wasted in manufacturing all this urea.

NOTE: Human urine contains high levels of ammonia and urea. So you can just piss in the urea tank. Solves part of the waste disposal problem for RVs.:D

This really isn't any better than using corn to make ethanol for gasoline which produces way more pollution and wasted fuel producing and shipping it than they are saving by adding it to fuel.

Seems to me they always come up with solutions that jeopardize another industry, or that look like they are working from one angle but when you step back and have a look they are really making things worse.

So what else is new? Any time the government tries to fix something, they totally f***-up something else. :(

One of the largest areas of contention between the EPA and automakers involves a proposed interlock between the urea level-monitoring system and the engine that would perhaps disable the starter or lock the vehicle's fuel cap if urea levels drop too low to ensure proper function. Wonderful! Another interlock like the beloved seatbelt-ignition interlock from 1974. - It will be interesting to see how people handle being stranded out in the "booneys" because they can't get their urea tank filled.

Not true, I think right now too low = limp mode (there is still negotiation going on btw EPA and OEMs)