I've been a member for a while, but not a truck owner (have a Mitsubishi Fuso diesel right now). I'm going to be buying a truck before the end of the year though. Going to be using it for hauling a travel trailer across the US and back for about a year.

Anyway, the point of my post is to ask: Why shouldn't I get this truck? Can I expect to be broken down in BFE somewhere on a cold, dark, night with my wife (not that that would be a bad thing really)? Retail on the model I'm looking at is about $45000 and the local dealer has several with Red Tag pricing around $37000, so they can be had inexpensively (relative to other manufacturers).

Trying to get a feel here... I think I'm pretty much sold on GM/Chevy already, but feel free to convince me otherwise.

Thanks.

From what I have read I don't thin you can go wrong with a GM. I was looking at trading for a Ford but after some issues on the drive home I will be looking at GM. I think the ford is bigger inside but that does not help if it is in the shop.

Dameon,

I don't think you'll find too many members on this forum who will tell you to look elsewhere.

I'm sure there are plenty of stories just like mine:

I got 149,000mi on my first GMC pick-up (K1500) and was never stranded... that is the single biggest reason I chose to buy another GMC over the other brands I tested. I had a good experience, maybe others haven't.

My philosophy is: if you do regular/preventative maintenance, and drive it like you OWN it (not like you STOLE it or like you are HELL-bent on trying to break it) then GM trucks will go a LOOONGG ways!

Hope you find just what you're looking for.

-AJ

Why shouldn't I get this truck?
shortbox -:t

jk

Yea, what they said. JJ's .02 cents worth. Any truck manufacturer has a lemon rolling down their assembly line each/every day. For every Ford horror story you will hear a GM/Chevy story and so on.... Someone is going to buy them and have nothing but trouble with them. -:t

Any machine, lest we forget what they really are, may have problems at the most unopportune time. So we play the odds, roll the dice, and buy a truck. I agonized over my decision for months, researched all the brands, read forums like this, and made my decision. I'll tell you up front I have never regretted buying my 04.5 LLY 1 ton dually. :ro) But it was an agonizing decision.

When I was looking to purchase a truck I had every intention of buying a Ford 6.0 Powerstroke 1 ton diesel dually. The Ford was cheaper and I liked the interior better than the GM/Chevy. However the 6.0 was having problems of its own. I really liked the looks of the Dodge the best, but at the time they didn't appear to have their issues resolved with their tranny's and the power coming out of the Cummins. :eek: The GM/Chevy's had been having injector problems, but their new LLY redesign addressed this and several other improvements that were made appealed to me. :cool:

So why did I buy the Chevy? Since I tow very heavy (23k-25k GCW) with a 40' 5ver I wanted a very strong, dependable drive train (engine/tranny/axle). The Allison tranny was a major plus in my decision. It is hands down the best tranny I have ever used. Yes, the LLY was unproven and in 1st year production, and with all the problems the LB7 owners were having I thought long and hard before purchasing a GM. :rolleyes: My test drive of all 3 sealed the decision for me.

I've owned the truck since June with no problems. MPG's are respectable for a 1 ton diesel dually at 14-15 city, 19-20 highway. All indications are that as it breaks in the mpg's will go up. No squeaks, no rattles, nice ride except for hitting bumps with the rear end :eek: (Rancho shocks soon), and it pulls my rig very well. The grade braking features of the Allison while towing are quite impressive.

I'm with the crowd that says go long bed versus shortbed if you are going to do any serious hauling or towing. If a family vehicle or mostly used for commuting with passengers then CC will work fine. Shoot for 90% of your daily needs, the other 10% you can work around. While the CC shortbed is only about a foot longer than the extended cab longbed both can prove challenging to park if you use it as a daily commuter. Duallies require a little more attention, especially in tight spaces.

Good luck on your decision. Like most truck owners you will likely be very happy with whatever you purchase. There have been several polls conducted on this site regarding owners experiences and satisfaction with their trucks. The new LLY has a very respectable 90%+ satisfaction rating. Pretty impressive! Happy Holidays! JJ :)

Consider getting yourself the long box if available. Little more of a pain to park in some areas but you get used to it. The extra 2 feet of length can be a very welcome thing when hauling or carrying a bunch of stuff. Space in the bed is sort of like money in that you never have too much. That's been my experience. So far a make of truck goes, I prefer GM products but you can get good ones and bad ones no matter what makers sticker is on the side.

I have a SB, bought it thinking about the easier to park aspect.. get the Long bed.

better if you pull a 5th wheel/gooseneck.. or put more in the bed :^)

JJ

DAMEON, if you can't get any discounts, contact me as I can get you a G.M.S. Supplier discount in a matter of mins. It is listed on the invoice, if you are looking at a real invoice. There is no haggleing on this price & you still get the rebates that are out there. E-mail me at= howard_m18@yahoo.com Howard

At $37,000 from $45,000 that is GM Option 1 employee pricing, not counting any rebates.That is a very good price if your not getting GM option 1 or 2 the only difference in those is about $600.


My sticker was $46,200, my price was $37,844 GM employee, at that time they also had $3,500 rebate and $1000 Chevrolet loyalty,which brought it down to $33,344 plus required govermental donation.
In other words if your not getting employee pricing thats a good deal.

In my opinion there is no reason NOT to get this truck. They are about the best ones on the market today not to mention the quietest diesels available. The threads you read on here about problems only represent a very very small percentage of owners and most issues are resolved with little or no effort.

I chose GMC only because I thought it looked a bit better on the outside versus Chevy and I chose it over Ford because I don't like the look of the new Ford and also their new motor is having all kinds of problems.

You won't regret it. The positives far out weigh the negatives with this truck.

just my $.02
good luck with purchase..

I too used the supplier discount and made out like a theif on the deal!!

Thanks for the comments and suggestions... much appreciated.

I kinda figured EVERY manufacturer has its issues. The Fords are dog ugly (in my opinion) and while the Dodges are my favorite looking, they are much more expensive for what you get. The Chevy/GMC seemed to be the middle road of everything... fairly nice looking and the right components... Duramax teamed with an Allison is a damn solid combination.

I'll be pulling a 37' Wildwood toy hauler 5th wheel. 9200 pound axle weight (with another 2000 pounds of my crap in it), 2900 pound hitch weight. I've seen this trailer on a long bed and a standard bed and I really don't like the amount of space wasted in front of the hitch on a long bed. The standard bed was just right, allowing for full radius on tight turns and no unsightly space between the back of the cab and the face of the RV. My other concern is drivability... as a commuter, the extra 17" of the Crew Cab and another 17" for the long bed add up to difficult maneuvering. It'll be a two passenger vehicle with an occasional "must keep dry" object in the extended cab. I don't see the bed length and cab style playing a big role is feasibility of purchase... it's more buyer desires and I don't desire the larger sizes. As for 4x4, do they sell trucks that aren't 4x4?

Going to the dealer tomorrow to look at an 2005 in Dark Blue Metallic. The numbers sound like they are going to work for me. That's nothing special as far as pricing... meaning, I don't have any "employee" deals or discount waivers. That's just me walking in and asking what their best price on the truck is. Maybe they are easier to deal with in Louisiana?

JJ Dumax

Flip those overloads, night and day diff when empty.

to my knowledge only GMC offers a 2wd 2500HD with Duramax...that is what I have as I don't need the 4x4 here in the heat.

Briano, not get too far off of the subject, but please elaborate on the Ford 6.0 PowerStroke problems. I have an '02 2500HD CC DMax Alli and just experienced the dreaded injector failure. Until this point I have been absolutely thrilled with this truck, but because of issues I have with the dealer on this repair, I am taking a VERY hard look at the '05 Ford F250 Super Duty (never thought I'd say that!) The only knock I've heard is that fuel mileage in weak (rumored 15 MPG highway). Thanks!

redbone, you might check out the dieselpage website for good intel on the Powerstroke, Cummins and Duramax. Otherwise you might want to post on the "Ask the Tech" forum, they work on them all and have great insight on their peculiarities.

Dameon, 2900lb pin weight in a 2500 shortbed crewcab? If I recall correctly the GVWR is around 9200lbs, the truck weighs in dry at around 7400lbs. Talk about deja-vu! I started out looking at 2500's as well, but through some well intended advice from others on forums like this I ended up with a 3500.

If you haven't already you might want to go to the trailering forum and do a search on what you can/should tow with 2500/3500 trucks. If the manufacturer is quoting 2900lb pin weight that is the dry weight of the unit. Figure about 3400-3500 wet(loaded) depending upon the weight distribution of what you load into it and tank locations. Do some calculations including everything, and I mean everything you will have in the truck, full tanks, etc., add the RV, bump it by 10%, then look at your GVWR/GAWR/GCWR. Most people figure about 800-1000lbs for their personal stuff. If you are not well within the weight limits you may need more truck.

There are guys out there that will post that they are towing this much and more with 2500's and haven't experienced any problems. Yeah, the 2500's can pull them. However, the manufacturer sets the ratings based upon several factors, one of them is safety. :rolleyes:

BTW, that space in front of the hitch isn't necessarily wasted space. Like someone else posted you will find the back end fills up pretty quickly with the 5ver in tow. I have a toolbox in front of the hitch that carries the incidentals I need for emergencies, RV maintenance, etc. Plus, vehicles with longer wheelbases usually do tow better than those with shorter wheelbases, e.g. watch any Ford Explorer towing anything down the road and you'll see my point! :rolleyes:

I went with a dually at 2700lb dry pin weight, actual pin is usually between 3500-3700. Much heavier RV though at 16-18k lbs depending upon the load I'm carrying. Even then I'm sometimes slightly above GCWR. I like the wider stance and extra set of tires under the load. Plus the dually is fun to drive. Just my .02 cents worth. JJ :)

Redbone .... Try DieselStop.Com for mucho info on the Ford Power Stroke. Now back to the main topic ..........

nosliw
Diesel Fanatic

nosliw's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: wa
Posts: 78

Default
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dameon
Why shouldn't I get this truck?

shortbox

jk
__________________
05 2500HD D/A
Ext. Cab/ Long Box
Carbon Metallic/ Cloth



Longbox -:t -:t


BP

DAMEON, if you can't get any discounts, contact me as I can get you a G.M.S. Supplier discount in a matter of mins. It is listed on the invoice, if you are looking at a real invoice. There is no haggleing on this price & you still get the rebates that are out there. E-mail me at= howard_m18@yahoo.com HowardI'd be interested to hear what you have for me. Drop me a PM with the associated details and any "gotchas" I should know about. Thanks Howard!

Go with the Duramax/Allison hands down the best of the best.

My sticker was $46,200, my price was $37,844 GM employee, at that time they also had $3,500 rebate and $1000 Chevrolet loyalty,which brought it down to $33,344 plus required govermental donation.
In other words if your not getting employee pricing thats a good deal.
I just got back from a 2pm appointment with the dealer... 4 hours and still no truck. Here's the scoop...

List price was $45,984, the Red Tag hanging on the rearview mirror had a price of $37,984. That included $5000 Red Tag Rebate, $2000 GM Rebate, and $1000 GMAC Rebate. He said GMAC had 3.9% for 60 months or 4.9% for 72 months. We work the deal up based on his "no haggle" Red Tag price. It seemed like a real good price and I could tell he wasn't going to budge. Wrote the deal up and he took it back to the manager to "approve". Came back and said he messed up... the LLY option is only good for a $1000 GM Rebate (the gas engines get the $2000 rebate)... BUT they took $1000 off the purchase price to cover that, so it was no big deal. It's all the same bottom line price for me. So we go to financing (down the street) and they tell me I can't have the $1000 GMAC Rebate AND 4.9%... one or the other. I told him we signed a agreement stating what I wanted, he said "well I don't know anything about the financing rate, it's based on your credit score". Well, that's all fine and dandy, but that's not the issue here. That $1000 is the issue. I figured they cut things a little thin when they reduced the price by $1000 and now they are trying to make it back up. We went back forth a while and I ended up leaving (on good terms I guess) without the truck. He also claimed that their "invoice price" on the truck was $40,484. I don't see how that can be that they are willing to sell it for less than they paid. That must be a "second" invoice... not actually what they paid.

I have a couple more trucks I can look at and/or buy, but this one was closest, and it was 30 minutes away. He said he'd call Monday if something changes. We'll see.

Dameon, it can be very frustrating buying one of these trucks.:eek: When I was looking to buy the 04's were running out, plenty in Texas if I was willing to drive 1800 miles. I found a couple that met my criteria. I was so close to going to pick up a 2004.5 white GMC Sierra 3500 dually in Tennessee (9 hour drive). Dealers in the J'ville area weren't budging on the prices on the Duramax's. I was trading out of a 2002 Avalanche and was upside down in it. The rebates were my saving grace. :ro) I ended up buying from the same dealership where I bought the Avalanche. Good experience on the buying end and service as well. I don't hesitate to recommend them.

Use the internet to see what is out there and see if Howard can work his magic for you. Where was Howard when I was beating my head against a rock? ):h GM's website www.gmbuypower.com (http://www.gmbuypower.com) is good for locating vehicles. Getting the price you want is another story. You might ask guys on the DP in your area of the country for recommendations on a dealer to work with. There are a couple here in J'ville that wouldn't send my worst enemy to, well? :rolleyes:

Don't be too quick to rule out a 3500 SRW. If you are going to spend $40k+- on a truck you want minimal limitations. I never thought I would buy a dually pickup truck. It is hands down the most enjoyable and useful vehicle I have owned. Also, don't hesitate to ask the DP brotherhood about any RV you are looking at. Good intel on the site. JJ :)

He also claimed that their "invoice price" on the truck was $40,484. I don't see how that can be that they are willing to sell it for less than they paid. That must be a "second" invoice... not actually what they paid.

Dameon,

You can get dealer invoice figures from Edmunds.Com or the Kelly Blue Book web site at KBB.com.

To find the dealer cost, add the base dealer cost of the vehicle and options. Then add the shipping and the regional advertising fees. These last two items are true dealer cost items shown on the dealer invoice and are paid by the dealer. The shipping shown on the window sticker is the same amount included in the dealer invoice.

The advertising fee is hard to determine. It is used to fund the ad campaigns you see on TV and in the newspapers. The bigger the promotion, the more the fees that are allocated back to the dealers. Howard may be able to find this figure for the particular vehicle you are looking at(?). It varies from region to region and quarter to quarter. In my case, a truck I was looking at in the metro area was made in the first quarter of the year and had an advertising fee of around $1,100 allocated to it. The truck I finally bought was made in the second quarter and come from a rual area of the state and had an advertising allocation of just over $400. Some quarters have no allocation at all. The fee varies from truck to truck since the allocation is based on a percentage of the cost of the vehicle. So trucks with different options will have a different cost and a different advertising charge.

The best way to deal with this is to tell the dealer you want a copy of the dealer invoice. This is not a CIA top secret document. Dealers will give them out all the time if the customer insists. Make it clear that this is a show stopper item. If they say no, then do the slow walk to the door. You will have them hanging on your car as you drive out saying they can make an "exception" in your case. The only reason not to show the invoice to a customer is if they are lying about the figures. If that is the case, you are better off to walk and deal elsewhere.

After all the above, you are right, the dealer invoice is actually higher than what the dealer ultimately pays GM. Effectively, the dealer will get a form of refund from GM call the dealer hold back. This is 3% of the total MSRP (Manuf. suggested retail price, or window sticker). If the window sticker is $45,984, then the hold back is $1,380. If the dealer sells you the truck for the dealer invoice price (not the window sticker), plus $200, then they made at least a profit of $1,580.

There may be more. In addition to the customer incentives that are advertised to the public, GM will also offer dealer incentives on certain vehicles and these incentives are not adverstised. They go direct to the dealer. These are usually on slow sellers so it unusual to see any on a Duramax. Sometimes the Edmunds site or the KBB site will have these listed. There may also be year-end carryovers, advertising rebates and general promotion coupons that the dealer can apply as desired.

Here is what to look for on the dealer invoice (assuming they haven't changed for 2005). The first column of figures lists the MSRP (same numbers as shown on the window sticker). The next column is the "Inv Amt" or the dealer invoice amounts. There is a sub total near the bottom for "Total Model & Options". This is followed by "Destination Charge" (shipping) and then the "Dealer Co-Op advertising" charge. As explained above, the shipping will appear in both the MSRP column and the "Inv Amt" column. The advertising charge is only shown in the "Inv Amt" column. These lines are followed by a line saying "Total". The amount on this line in "Inv Amt" column is the "dealer invoice price" that everyone talks about. As mentioned earlier, it is more than what the dealer will actually pay to GM when everything is said and done.

There are some more figures to the right of the invoice with code letters. I believe the GMS amount is the GM employee price(somewhat less than dealer invoice), and SUPPLR is the supplier price (somewhat more than dealer invoice) mentioned in a note above from Howard. Near the bottom is the H/B or hold back amount and also ADV or another listing of the advertising allocation.

The best way to buy a vehicle is to negotiate the "terms" of the deal around the dealer invoice price, rather than negotiate the actual selling price of a particular vehicle. This means you say to the dealer, I will buy a truck from you for the dealer invoice price plus/minus X number of dollars, less any customer and factory incentives, plus sales tax, plus license and to include/not include the DOC Fee preprinted on the sales contract. (The Doc Fee is just pure addtional profit for the dealer, but that is another story.) Once you negotiate the terms of the deal, then the price is a simple calculation. This makes it simple when comparing dealer to dealer and truck to truck. Many floor sales folks may be overwhelmed by this approach, so do you negotiating with the Fleet Manager.

I have not been following the Duramax market lately, but this is normally a slow time of year (December/January) for the car dealers, which is to the advantage of the buyer. Check out the the "New Vehicle Ordering Information" forum to get an idea of what others are paying. I think Edmunds also has a forum discussing what folks paid. Generally speaking, try to get them to sell the truck for the dealer invoice price. I would be surprised if you couldn't get a truck for invoice plus $200 (or less). This may vary depending where you live. The Ca dealers were mighty proud of their trucks last spring. Also, don't forget to adjust this for incentives, taxes, etc.

Now for trade-ins. Never discuss trade-in until after terms for the new vehicle has been determined. If they ask you about a trade-in, say your brother is going to buy it. After the deal is set on the new vehicle, then say, in case my brother backs out of the deal, what will you give me for my current vehicle. Tossing the value of the current vehicle into the negotiation up front gives the dealer to variables to play with and you will not know where you are at. This also holds true for leases and monthly payments. Always agee on the purchase cost of the new vehicle first before starting any discussion on trade-ins, payments or leases.

Keep in mind that in some states, you get a sales tax advantage from your trade-in. These states only charge tax on the net amount of the sales price. For example, if the truck sells for $40,000 and the trade-in is $15,000, sales tax is computed on $25,000, not $40,000. The reasoning is that the person who buys your trade-in pays sales tax on it.

Be sure and do your homework before ever talking to the dealers. Know the options, the pricing, and the inventory. If you see a truck at one dealer, but like another dealer better, then they may be able to do a dealer trade.

Hope the dealer numbers make a little more sense now and that this helps you out.

Good Luck.

Thanks for the info BH... most of that I'd read before, but it's good to see it again and know that my initial information was correct.

I did hear that the hold back was 2% though. Can that be different region to region? Another factor is something you pointed out, availability. The Duramax trucks are WAY popular. The closest dealer than even had one was 30 minutes away. The next closest after that is New Orleans area which is close to 2 hours away. I have a feeling I won't get much out of him because he's no fool. He knows he has a desireable vehicle and he figures he can pull a few more dollars out of me.

The dealer made some interesting statements that could affect things. They claim they buy all their inventory outright. They pay no interest on vehicles sitting on the lot. They claim they can sell them cheaper if they do it that way. I can see where they could.

I just don't know. I'll do some more research online pertaining to invoice pricing and so forth... I think they may be shooting straight with me. I think they are slim on profit margin at the price they quoted me.

Dameon,

I picked up the 3% hold back number from a summary on the Edmunds site for all manufacturers that I printed out a few months ago. Just to make sure, I just now looked at a 2004 GM invoice and took 3% of the MSRP before shipping, and it came within 3 cents of the holdback amount printed on the invoice. I have never heard of hold back variations by region, and it was not mentioned on the Edmunds reference.

You are right, supply and demand rules. Dealer stock Duramax trucks have just started showing up on the lots in my area in the last few weeks. I assume most of the early 2005 production went to filling customer special orders placed over the summer and early fall. As you probably already know, buyers can get a good idea of the inventory available by logging on to the GM web site and using the feature to review dealer inventories. I noticed when I was searching for mine, large dealers in the larger cities had a good inventory selection. This also means they have more vehicles to offer for a dealer trade.

I would think the inventories should be growing over the next couple of months. Auto sales are traditionally slow from Thanksgiving through tax refund time. People are to busy to shop for autos during the holidays, then they are to broke or depressed to buy anything after spending money for Christmas presents. Things start up again once people know their tax situation and if they are getting a refund. This is why there are some great promotions during the winter. Some of the dealers can be very co-operative during the last week of December when trying to meet year-end sales goals.

Hope you find something you like at a price you want to pay. Ask the dealer you are working with for a copy of the dealer invoice. That will tell you if he is dealing straight.