If you have or know somebody who has the Tech IV programmer sold previously by Pacific Performance, in Fullerton Ca. I would be interested to hear of your feelings after learning the following information.

Were you aware the product you purchased (Tech IV 168hp Programmer) was in fact TTS's 120hp programmer with a different sticker?

Do you feel it is ok for a company to knowingly market a product in a fraudulant manner just to gain more sales?

I for one have learned the hard way after watching my truck lose 30hp across the powerband on their dyno with back to back tests comparing it to my Edge Hot Juice. This after they offered me a money back guarentee in order to sell me on the product which was supposed to net me 50 more horsepower then the juice, but now refusing to refund my $1100 becuase the product is a "special order". Keep in mind the programmer was initially installed in November 03 (over a year ago), and has since been rescued thanks to several people on this forum!

The last thing I wanted to do is drag this into a public forum, but these kind of business practices need to stop immediately. Trust me, it has been a year of taking every avenue except legal action to make this matter dissapear, but i'm not going to let it go down like this.

After receiving an initial credit with my credit card company, a year later I find out the charges are being reversed b/c PPE faxed my cc company papers stating that i signed paperwork stating the product was a special order and there was no refunds. I guess Mercedes can start selling E320's with AMG E55 stickers on it as long as you "special order it", then charge you another $50k and get away with it just because it was a special order. PPE also had the balls to say they were never aware of any issues with my truck, and that their was no record of me dynoing the truck there.. I wont go into details, but it should be interesting when i present the judge with all the supporting documents (yup even their very own dyno sheets, and faxes acknowledging the issues with my truck dating over 5 months), along with the physical invoices which contrary to what they claim, DO NOT have my signature on them.

I think it's pretty sad that a PPE was willing to sacrifice public humiliation, and future business relationships over $1100. The facts are black and white and i have every piece of documentation you could possibly ask for supporting my claims and expiriences with this company. I gave PPE 5 months to make good on their sale, dealing with their lies every other week, but utimately learned of severed business ties with the manufactor of the Tech IV which meant no chances of PPE ever fixing the problem on their own. Only after this did I seek help from somone who had the knowledge and resources to "clean" my ecu of this program. I'm not trying to imply by any means that this program is junk, however if I had been told the truth it would only make 120hp over stock, then I obviously wouldn't have spent the money. In all honesty I have recommended the TTS 120 tune to MANY potential first time buyers b/c of the switchable programs and overall good driveability/performance. If you are after 120hp gains with the stock transmission, then this is a great product.

I would expect many of you guys that have purchased the Tech IV to feel as cheated as I do. Please feel free to email me at mike@raceprovenmotors.com with any conserns, questions, etc.

I am currently in the process of filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau in attempts to efficiently solve this matter once and for all, but only time will tell what lies ahead.

Thanks for your time.

Um I remember Steve Cole having a topic come up in regards to this subject awhile ago and ,well ask him ;)

That sucks Mike............Maybe they(ppe) should retire from the diesel world and go back to being a car stereo shop...........

Get'm Mike, good luck.

Man that sucks.. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. I hope you get it all worked out. I know they will not be getting any business from me or people I know, that is for sure.

I am NOT trying to start anything, but I heard that the Quadzilla is just a Bd programmer with a different box around it and a few mods in the programming. Is this true?

I am NOT trying to start anything, but I heard that the Quadzilla is just a Bd programmer with a different box around it and a few mods in the programming. Is this true?
BullyDog Pup
Quad Stealth
BD Intimidator.

All Use the same Atmel 8 Bit RISC Flash progammable chipset

BUT... The Programming Values (Tunes) are their own.

theres nothing wrong sharing software as long as the manufactor is aware and in agreement with it.. The underlying problem here is taking software which knowlingly makes "x" amount of hp and then telling everyone it now makes 48 more horspower because that sounds better, but you didnt change a thing (well you put on a sticker). Obviously by dynoing the truck at their facility before and after the swap (same hour, same truck, same dyno, same conditions, etc), i proved the programmer makes nowhere near the hp they claim.

Doesn't PPE advertise crank hp?

Did you try stacking the juice and the ppe 168/tts 120. They should make real good power stacked

If people could get their money back from false HP claims, then there would be several performance parts companies out of business. K&N comes to mind... ;)

I hope everything works out...sounds like you got em by the short and hairys.

If people could get their money back from false HP claims, then there would be several performance parts companies out of business. K&N comes to mind... ;)
IIRC Ford repurchased and Settled with the Early 4.6L Quad Cam 'Cobra Mustangs' as they did not come close to their advertised HP Claims.
IIRC it affected some 5000 units.

"Were you aware the product you purchased (Tech IV 168hp Programmer) was in fact TTS's 120hp programmer with a different sticker?"

this happens all the time, not a big thing in todays world, thats why fourms like this are hear, read other sucess stories before buying

Mike,

sorry you had to come to the relization this way, but that is on par with a local huy (and fellow forum member) with his purchase of the xcelerator. sounds on par for PPE. i think daver hit it right on the head. best if they go back to tricking out lowered H2's with big stereos..

IIRC Ford repurchased and Settled with the Early 4.6L Quad Cam 'Cobra Mustangs' as they did not come close to their advertised HP Claims.
IIRC it affected some 5000 units.


The 1999 Cobra was underpowered, and Ford instituted a voluntary recall for the "fix" which involved a new intake manifold, tuning, etc. What made it worse, was the same year Chevy's Z-28 Camaro (and other V-8 Fbodies) was grossly UNDERRATED! Even though the mfr's claimed the same HP in the brochure, the Camaro put out >50 more HP to the tires, which REALLY pissed off the Cobra guys. Ford pulled the Cobra for 2000 to rethink things, and eventually ended up putting a blower on it in 2003 to equalize things.

Mazda's new RX-8 was also grossly overrated when released, and they bought back a few HUNDRED cars from pissed off owners. Mazda changed their brochure HP downward instead of fixing the problem.

That would really get under an owners skin.... to pay for power and not get it.
Further to that IIRC someone on a mustang forum bought a 99 Cobra, and took his 1989 GT and dynoed both.

I believe legend has it that the Cobra was back on the dealers lot the next day as the 5.0 was only 5 HP short.

It is typical across markets for companies to put their branding on other manufacturers prdoucts. They are usually unchanged or minimally changed. Look at sears. They sell Ryobi, Whirlpool, Emerson and god knows what else under names like Craftsman and Kenmore. For me, if my Kenmore refrigerator works well and costs less than its equivalent Whirlpool model, I could care less what sticker is on it.

Blatant false advertizing numbers are a different story. I don't care who manufactures the product.

Interesting tidbit -

I called Pacific Perfomance a few minutes ago and asked them what their return policy is on their tuners:

None. They do not accept them back if you not satisfied with the product. I spoke with Dan the sales manager, and they said once you buy, you're stuck.

Interesting tidbit -

I called Pacific Perfomance a few minutes ago and asked them what their return policy is on their tuners:

None. They do not accept them back if you not satisfied with the product. I spoke with Dan the sales manager, and they said once you buy, you're stuck.


So what does that project to the consumer? Perhaps it sucks so bad we don't even want it back?


Mac :eek:

So what does that project to the consumer? Perhaps it sucks so bad we don't even want it back?


Mac :eek:


Here's how the start of the conversation went...




Hi, I hear you make a LLY Harness box now.

>Yes we do, it's called the Enforcer.

What is your return policy?

>None. When did you buy it?

I didn't, I just wanted to know if I buy one didn't like it, could I return it.

>We never have unhappy customers, so we stopped having a return policy!

...

Here's how the start of the conversation went...




Hi, I hear you make a LLY Harness box now.

>Yes we do, it's called the Enforcer.

What is your return policy?

>None. When did you buy it?

I didn't, I just wanted to know if I buy one didn't like it, could I return it.

>We never have unhappy customers, so we stopped having a return policy!

...
are you serious? that's what they said??? OMG! that's funny... what a bold statement

Unbelieveable....No exchange policy or "we'll work with you to make it right with you"?....Sounds like a company on the brink of filing chapter 11 if you ask me.......

All I can say is thank G** for this board.... I work 10 minutes from PPE and when I bought the truck they were on my list for performing many of the upgrades......

Thanks to knowledgable (sp?) people here and good advice I was spared...:D

Thanks again all......

the way i read it on the waiver form, when you buy the extreme tts, their is no money back, policy eather if your not happy, what is up with that

are you serious? that's what they said??? OMG! that's funny... what a bold statement

I almost didn't type it because it sounds like BS! But that's what their sales manager told me.

Later, we talked about stacking and drag racing, but the NO RETURN policy was made clear 1 minute into the conversation.

"After receiving an initial credit with my credit card company, a year later I find out the charges are being reversed b/c PPE faxed my cc company papers stating that i signed paperwork stating the product was a special order and there was no refunds. "

I would say you have a case with your credit card company, if it was sent back:

1: That is way outside timeframe restrictions the CC companies have in place

2: If you recovered the unit, that may have been a mistake, accepting it sent back to you.

3: Have you asked TTS if they still sell to them, In this country, you can't knowingly and lawfully assist another in a fraud. A legal question I will not ponder, as I do not have specific details to the case law. And I am not suggesting that is the case anyway, just wondering what your diligence turned up.

4: If the sales docs did not have your sig on them, how did they pass muster with the CC company as evidence why this charge should stick? DISPUTE IT!!

Sorry if I got some of the details wrong. Just hate to see the system work against the righteous.

It sounds to me that this company has a knowledge of the inside of the CC world, and how disputes and chargebacks are handled, putting little Joe at a disadvantage to the dollar seeking opportunist. The dispute and chargeback process, believe it or not, is set up to protect against just this kind of thing, signature or no signature.

If you want to enlighten me further via e-mail, maybe I can assist.

All I can say is thank G** for this board.... I work 10 minutes from PPE and when I bought the truck they were on my list for performing many of the upgrades......

Thanks to knowledgable (sp?) people here and good advice I was spared...:D

Thanks again all......

I don't know if their product is good or bad, but it is best to know the situation before you begin.

We have a customer in our shop right now. He has a so-called "racing tranny" in his truck he had done by PPE (it has an ATS Triplelock, which is all I can see right now). He also says he has 800 horsepower with his "Hot Enforcer-Duramaximizer double-chip" His tranny is leaking at the front-module gasket area, pretty heavily. When he was advised of this leak, he immediately called PPE and spoke to "Joe". He came back and told us PPE said "it cannot possibly be leaking, we have never had one leak". So, it sounds like they do indeed have a 100% BS policy when it comes to their work. BTW, I have driven his truck, and I am pretty sure my truck with a Hot Juice only is faster than his "800 HP racing Duramax"):h -:t

tranny leaks but man that stereo sure sounds good............-:t

the way i read it on the waiver form, when you buy the extreme tts, their is no money back, policy eather if your not happy, what is up with that

:confused:

Yes, we stacked the hot juice, added the duramaximizer and the Tech IV and even put propane to it.. With the addition of (3) extra power adders it made approx 45 more hp then just the juice alone.. We made about 24 pulls with about every combination we could think of... The duramaximizer was another joke.. I could see the FP increase on the tech iv but it made little to no difference on the dyno, and you definately can not feel the power. I asked Joe WTF the deal was, and he said "they designed the duramaximizer so the power band was so smooth, it is normal NOT to feel the extra power kick in" LMAO..

As for the signature thing, they used a copy of one of my credit card receipts and placed it over the area you would sign the disclaimer, making it seem like i signed it. There is alot more to the story, and to those who have sat down and listened to the 1hr long version they are just dumbfounded at the end result.. My expirience is such a joke, you guys must think I am making this up, or stretching the truth. You should see the copywrite infringement they did with TTS's liability disclaimer. I have so many papers contradicting their stories, and busting them on their bold face lies it would make for a great movie. Nevertheless, b/c it was a special order my credit card company told me i would have to take it to court.

Sounds like the BBB needs to be informed of this.
Good luck with it.

the way i read it on the waiver form, when you buy the extreme tts, their is no money back, policy eather if your not happy, what is up with that
My advise to you based on the above statement is to not purchase an Xtreme from TTS. The Xtreme is the worst product out there, it does not work at all as described. It doesn't work on my truck or any of the others on this board. Everyone here who has purchased an Xtreme absolutely hates it and none of us will ever do business with TTS again. In fact I can't figure out why people continue to purchase their products based on all of the negative responses here. Their products are rushed to market in mass quantities just to make a quick buck. They also continue to rely on the general public to do their beta testing. Their research and development consists of releasing their unproven products to the genral public based on consumer demand and then fixing the problems that everyone complains about in later releases.

Or not............your results may vary. :D

GOOD ONE TRIP! The PPE is the real thing from TTS which most certainly has my vote, but they do false advertise on the hp output (PPE). They say it is at the crank HP. I to had go rounds with them about the lower HP dynoing. It was pretty good out put coupled with the Hot O/J. I like the Extreme better though. I cut my loss as a live and learn thing and just upgraded to the BIG ONE (Extreme) when it was available. What a great program.

PPE only started rating flywheel horsepower with the Xcelerator, as a means to uphold there credibility when people found out about they were trying to pull the same BS as they pulled with the Tech IV.

As for the waiver form, it only makes sense to prevent people from buying the product, testing it and then returning it after a 30 day trial. But rest assure, when you buy something from TTS or Steve Cole directly you are getting exactly what they advertise and there are no hidden surprises. The extreme program does exactly what they claim and then some.... I owe alot to Steve for helping me resolve this issue (eventhough it wasn't his problem). i would also like to thank Trippin, Mike L and Diesel Power for their help as well.

"As for the waiver form, it only makes sense to prevent people from buying the product, testing it and then returning it after a 30 day trial."-:t

"As for the waiver form, it only makes sense to prevent people from buying the product, testing it and then returning it after a 30 day trial."-:t
Did this waiver somehow disrupt your plans? :D

"As for the waiver form, it only makes sense to prevent people from buying the product, testing it and then returning it after a 30 day trial."-:t


Wondering out loud~Have you talked to TTS in reference to WHY he has this policy? I think you'll find out a different reason.

I'm not cheerleading or swaying you but you'll have to rip my ECM from my dieing fingers to get me to return it! It may appear to be a double standard but,The PPE is simply someone Else's program in a different package,the other packages are in the classifieds and Ebay everyday.The TTS is the real deal and can be catered to your needs.I'm sure many bench hours go into this process!

If Steve was just a reseller or Pirate then I guess the gauntlet should drop,obviously he is not.

Just my personal opinion take it or leave it.

All I can tell anyone about the TTS product is that if you want to try the other competitors products and just "TRY" the Xtreme, then find someone with an Xtreme, drive it, and then make your own conclusions.........

As I have said before, I tried all the others, I tried all the stacks, I dyno'd the stacks..........I heard the excessive rattle from the stacks..........in the end I rode in a TTS equipped truck..........that cemented my decision to get it.

I also have seen the dyno charts..........

Bottom line is no one is twisting anyone's arm.........PPE, Quad, Bully Dog, BD etc are offering a tuner type product.........EDGE, VA, BANKS.........all offer a Plug-n-Play product.........
Add the cost of both....throw in a Duramaximizer and see what you spent for what you get..........

I know I did...........and it cost a lot more to stack and you get less.........

So the choice is yours............I guess we ( TTS XTreme owners ) all like an underperfroming product from a company that RUSHED it to market and the reason was so that it would beta tested by the masses and a truly horrible product.........:rolleyes: Right Trippin ??????

We just had this conversaton did we not ????

Anyway,

As far as PPE........there is a time limit on credit card disputes.........the purchaser has only 30 or 60 days to file the dispute, after that the fight becomes harder.............I sued AMEX for $6000 and won in court..........I had a good Attorney..........and he caused them trouble.........so it was worth it.

Sue PPE in small claims court if you don't get any where

T:cool: NY

Yeah it really pissed me off when my 310hp 99 Formula 6spd dynoed at 305hp AT THE REAR WHEELS !!! :D :D :ro) Was really funny when you think about why GM de-rated the F-Body LS1. The corvette was rated at 340hp the same year, and the F-bodys had the exact same all alum V-8, except that the F-Body had a higher lift cam than the corvette (we had an EGR, vette used milder cam to avoid the EGR), so in reality we probably put out more hp than the vette was rated at. Man that was a fun car, pulled a 13.22 @ 109mph in the qtr mile in completely stock configuration, with stock goodyear tires slipping thru first and part of second gear :mad: . Top end was SPEED LIMITED BY GM to only 160mph, because that's all the tires were rated for!! It could go faster if the speed limiter was removed. (I won't comment on how I know ;) )

I sold the car when I bought the DMAX in 02......... There are days I really miss it.

The 1999 Cobra was underpowered, and Ford instituted a voluntary recall for the "fix" which involved a new intake manifold, tuning, etc. What made it worse, was the same year Chevy's Z-28 Camaro (and other V-8 Fbodies) was grossly UNDERRATED! Even though the mfr's claimed the same HP in the brochure, the Camaro put out >50 more HP to the tires, which REALLY pissed off the Cobra guys. Ford pulled the Cobra for 2000 to rethink things, and eventually ended up putting a blower on it in 2003 to equalize things.

Mazda's new RX-8 was also grossly overrated when released, and they bought back a few HUNDRED cars from pissed off owners. Mazda changed their brochure HP downward instead of fixing the problem.

If one was to read the TTS Xtreme disclaimer you will find much more than a no return policy. IT say it will break parts on your truck, it will smoke, it will damage the engine and transmission. So why would we make statements like that............ so you know what you are buying. It's truely a custom race program and the wavier makes sure you know it! If that's more than what you willing to accept your free to buy else where which is what we would like you to do if your unsure. We are not interested in working for free. Once we build the custom program it's not good for any other truck, so I would assume some of you out there can understand. We do not try to say to you drive it daily and everything will be fine, you know before you buy what your getting youself into.

As far as PPE........there is a time limit on credit card disputes.........the purchaser has only 30 or 60 days to file the dispute, after that the fight becomes harder.............I sued AMEX for $6000 and won in court..........I had a good Attorney..........and he caused them trouble.........so it was worth it.

Suee PPE in small claims court if you don't get any where

T:cool: NY
Well basically i put up the deposit and 5 months later finally got the programmer. Then installed it, and refused to pay the balance after verifying the dyno results.. Initially i told them to remove it, but then they informed me I could not go back to stock, that they have perminately altered my computer. I'm like, great here comes the nightmare. So they agree to " dyno tune a custom chip with my truck" but they want my vehicle for 2 weeks of testing!!! I told them fine, but they aren't dynoing anything without me there watching over them. They agree'd to charge the balance upon me receiving a satisfactory product. Fast forward 2 months, and they charge the balance on my credit card out of nowhere stating it was a phone order. I try to call Joe the owner, who avoided my calls. Left plenty of messaged and sent plenty of faxes. Numerous occations he verified they "Credited" my account for the unothorized charge, but ironically nothing ever posted to my account. They must have thought i was stupid and would just listen to whatever they say. I soon called the CC saying this was unathorized charge and to make sure it got handled. So the cc company took care of it.

Fast forward another 3 months of waiting for them to be ready to fix my truck, and i find out the manufactor(TTS) severed business ties with them (for whatever reason, none of my business) Keep in mind Joe would call me up saying my chip was ready they just needed to install it, then i would call the manufactor to verify the truth and they would tell me, yeh he just called 5 minutes ago saying you were calmed down and they desparately need the chip done. The manufactor told him, they chip is not done b/c we are not done testing and it is not ready to be released to the public. So at this point there is nothing they can do to fix my truck, because they are dead in the water with no aftermarket support.

So 5 months later when TTS and PPE stopped speaking to eachother i had TTS fix the computer and put me back to stop temporarily. Thought it was all over, but fast forward another 6 months and my cc company decides they are going to reverse my charges. I think they reason i got screwed is because one of my main faxes did not go through completely. I had called and left messages to the manager handling this case, confirming they received the fax. I left about 4 messages over the course of 2 weeks following up. Not one call back. FInally i get his supervisor on the phone and they tell me they never received the fax, and that the time has passed, and there is nothing they can do at this point. I was like "so basically you avoided dealing with the case by not calling me back stating you never received the fax, and now you have the balls to tell me the time limit has passed" I told the supervisor that they were all a bunch of idiots, and that i didnt need a company handling my finances with such unprofessionalism.

Censored -:t :mad: ;) Sounds like, and no I did not read all pages, but I would go to the source and take retrobution out on their butts. No I do not feel it is right, but it would sure wake them up, and make you feel better. Jail time for a job well done is fine. I will bail you out!!!

Some thoughts, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong...

I believe the TTS tunes are custom to the truck, and if you have a problem, Steve will modify the code.

But it's like when you buy custom tuning for your car. They will adjust it, but they don't offer refunds because it is a service, not a product. Much like getting your car painted. You can have them fix the paintjob, but you can't change your mind because decided not to have a naked lady riding a rhino on the hood. You place your order and live with the outcome.

With Harness Boxes, they are a commodity. If you don't like the way it performs, other than shipping costs, the vendor doesn't lose anything. Same with "generic" tuners that aren't tied to the VIN.

I remember when I bought a SuperChips tuner that was tied to my VIN, they would not refund it. We had to get the unit altered 3 times before the car would run past 5,000 rpm. Too lean, too much spark, wrong parameters, etc. But in the end, it worked. I think I was one of the first cars to test their tune apparently, but I didn't know that until after I bought it.

I think Nick should start a forum for BAD vendors . . . I can think of several I would post !!

But it's like when you buy custom tuning for your car. They will adjust it, but they don't offer refunds because it is a service, not a product. Much like getting your car painted. You can have them fix the paintjob, but you can't change your mind because decided not to have a naked lady riding a rhino on the hood. You place your order and live with the outcome.



I dont know if this was directed at me but I see your point to a certain degree. However, your example is the same as buying a new car in the state of california. Once you buy it, you cant change your mind an hour later and take it back b/c you didnt think it was fast enough. But according to you, it would have been fine for Ford to burn all the guys who bought the overated 99 cobras. Instead they took appropriate actions and FIXED the problem. I waited 5 months for PPE to FIX the problem, and they never did. It was more then just lack of power too, the thing rattled like the rods were going to jump out in stage 1. Ask Steve Cole, he about crapped himself when he heard my truck. Thankfully after being dead in the water for 5+ months, Steve offered to investigate the problem, and fix it after PPE was unwilling to do anything. Now with the extreme, it runs great in all stages.

I dont know if this was directed at me but I see your point to a certain degree. However, your example is the same as buying a new car in the state of california. Once you buy it, you cant change your mind an hour later and take it back b/c you didnt think it was fast enough. But according to you, it would have been fine for Ford to burn all the guys who bought the overated 99 cobras. Instead they took appropriate actions and FIXED the problem. I waited 5 months for PPE to FIX the problem, and they never did. It was more then just lack of power too, the thing rattled like the rods were going to jump out in stage 1. Ask Steve Cole, he about crapped himself when he heard my truck. Thankfully after being dead in the water for 5+ months, Steve offered to investigate the problem, and fix it after PPE was unwilling to do anything. Now with the extreme, it runs great in all stages.

Not directly aimed at you, just explaining my experience with custom tunes.

You are correct, they (PPE) were obligated to make it run as advertised no matter how much time it takes them. Going back to the painting analogy, they painted a naked rhino riding a girl, and are obliged to do the job right, even if it means repainting the whole car.

ghettosled,

Sorry to hear the results...
I will tell you that you may still have a chance........
File a small claims suit against PPE.....then see what the cost is to sue the credit card company as well.
A lot of times if the amount is small they can't be bothered to appear so if they don't appear you win judgement by default.
That is how I won against AMEX......my lawyer sued them in a way that they had to appear in court, when they asked for a postponement to investigate the case further my Attorney argued that they had over a year to investigate it, so sorry this is the court date be there or lose.......
They offered me $3000, then $4000, then $5000.....I held out for the full refund plus interest and Attorney's fees..........and got it all.

They did not think they could be sued and they got sued........and got beat because it wasn't worth it.

My attorney told the AMEX Attorney handling the case that at this point it was about principle the money was lost and my only satisfaction would be to waste AMEX's time and resources for what may be just a waste of time.......but it was going to cost them something so he told them at this piont my CLIENT didn't really care........in the end they caved. ):h

It was a similar situation, a special order with a 1/2 deposit.it took too long and I aked for a refund, did not get it because they insisted I never cancelled the order..........the store then charged the balance to my card and went out of business within a month.........I could not even charge back the store as they filed for bankruptsy protection..........

What a mess it was..............perseverance and being a thorn in the CC companies side can get you your money back I am sure.......

Good Luck,

T:cool: NY

I had the Tech IV and it ran ok. Always had problems with the programmimg and stupid lights coming on the dash. There customer service was not much help. Good luck in the courtroom.:ro)

Ghettosled --

Any new news???

I had no problem returning my duramaximizer POS i told them i noticed no power increase they said ok send it back. dave

..."girl riding a rhino.." that's a good one....