I was readin over on that other thread about the fuel filters. Seems like some of you fellas know what you're talkin about, some of you just try to repeat what you read on some other site. Weren't doin too good of a job of it at that.


This question is for you smart fellas. I been readin over on TDR (lotta smart fellas over there) and it looks like Cummins has decided to change over to the same Bosch fuel system that the Durmax has, they call it HPCR.


So why are they using a lift pump to feed the fatory pump. Seems to me they wouldn't spend the money on somethin like that unless they found some need for it?


Ain't lookin for an argument, so if you got nothin' intelligent to say, keep yer yap shut. I'd like to here from somebuddy with personal experince or a cluye wha they'e talkin about.


Ideas?

I was readin over on that other thread about the fuel filters. Seems like some of you fellas know what you're talkin about, some of you just try to repeat what you read on some other site. Weren't doin too good of a job of it at that.


This question is for you smart fellas. I been readin over on TDR (lotta smart fellas over there) and it looks like Cummins has decided to change over to the same Bosch fuel system that the Durmax has, they call it HPCR.


So why are they using a lift pump to feed the fatory pump. Seems to me they wouldn't spend the money on somethin like that unless they found some need for it?


Ain't lookin for an argument, so if you got nothin' intelligent to say, keep yer yap shut. I'd like to here from somebuddy with personal experince or a cluye wha they'e talkin about.


Ideas?
Good Mourning .....


This has been hashed out considerable lately ..... Our system is also a High Pressure Common Rail Bosch system ..... Likely difference in the two are different Injectors and D/C has installed a better finer 2um but not absolute, Fuel filter ....

If anyone can contribute to WHY Cummins added a lift pump, I'll let this fly .... If it turns into a debate on fuel filters it'll be gone before you can say "Happy Birthday " .....

Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif Edited by: Mackin

I'd like to here from somebuddy with personal experince or a cluye wha they'e talkin about.


Ideas?

Well apparently you were unable to get this question answered anywhere else which means this site is worth something to you. I'll give it a shot.

BTW: We could do without the "smart" comments in light of the context of the post.

Here goes......

One GUESS is Dodge is a different truck than the GM. That means even though they have similar injection systems, that does not mean the Dodge fuel system as a whole works exactly the same as the GM fuel system.

Remember, these are systems. They are designed to work as systems. All it takes is a different length line, different diameters, different fuel flow requirements etc. and your design might show the requirement for a lift pump.

OR....
Dodge decided a lift pump and a high quality fuel filter could reduce warranty claims due to premature injector/injector pump wear.

Does anybody here know that for sure. Maybe the best place to get an answer to that is over on TDR where all the Dodge experts are. Cost you about $35 to post it though and an answer isn't guaranteed.

We would like to see the long term results on all these different ideas that have been implemented. I think Bosch/Dodge may have had the benefit of learning from GM with respect to filtering fuel. After all, I'm sure Bosch provided fuel quality standards for the Dmax system when it was initially designed. I wonder if Bosch revised their filtering requirements because of the lessor grade of fuel available in the US. Or if filtering is the total answer. I'm sure they are also tweeking component designs to better handle dirty fuel, There's more than one way to skin the CAT. The newer injectors with some harder components in the Dmax is one example of that.

Either way, more answers will surface as new designs or changes are introduced with all these trucks.

It's the trucks that many of us own (first generation) that may not have the optimum fuel system setup that makes these forums such an asset. You don't get much info from the manufacturers on these subjects.

It's all good stuff and all part of the advance of technology in the diesel/automotive world.








Edited by: hoot

I was readin over on that other thread about the fuel filters. Seems like some of you fellas know what you're talkin about, some of you just try to repeat what you read on some other site. Weren't doin too good of a job of it at that.


This question is for you smart fellas. I been readin over on TDR (lotta smart fellas over there) and it looks like Cummins has decided to change over to the same Bosch fuel system that the Durmax has, they call it HPCR.


So why are they using a lift pump to feed the fatory pump. Seems to me they wouldn't spend the money on somethin like that unless they found some need for it?


Ain't lookin for an argument, so if you got nothin' intelligent to say, keep yer yap shut. I'd like to here from somebuddy with personal experince or a cluye wha they'e talkin about.


Ideas?


Diesel God,


First off welcome to the forum.........http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Up.gif


I would welcome any one that you may know of to share thier knowledge and info with us.


GMC http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

It appears a leading "expert" John Kennedy, already queried Bosch, the maker of our fuel pump and injector system, about using a lift pump with our system. Who would know better than Kennedy and Bosch?


On 4/22/03, Kennedy stated:


"Bosch's stand is that it is not necessary, nor recommended."


..."The old 6.5 lift pump may well work just fine, but proceed at your own risk."


The context of the question and answer was in a discussion of a means to eliminate stalling and no starts using a post-oem filter.

Good advice but it's only a disclaimer. Word is GM is working on a lift pump.

IS IT JUST ME OR IS THERE SOME UNDERLYING REASON EVERYONE SO ON EDGE HERE(NO PUN INTENDED)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif I think the question is a valueable one. Did GM provide us with a marginal fuel filtering and the abscence of a lift pump to save a few dolllars or did dodge just learn from GM's mistake and build on and create a better system ?.........the addition of a lift pump in my mind is a good thing if it enables you to push fuel thru a finer filter without air or a restriction.........whats another $250 in the big picture


vincent

Considering the Bosch source, I would think that such a disclaimer would disqualify aftermarket lift pump users from warranty service of failed injector pumps and injectors.


For example, since the injector pump relies soley on the fuel for lubricity and cooling, the lift pump should have an internal by-pass so if it fails, (and they are highly prone to failure), the injector pump can still draw fuel and won't self-destruct.

It's not that we are on edge. Mr. X just keeps driving it like a friggin horny dog looking for a mate http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

It's when the stuff keeps getting repeated over and over that gets old. Not on edge at all AT ALL NOT AT ALL
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

On edit,

Afte Mr. X just posted.... he does make a valid point that adding something like a lift pump adds other considerations. I think that's why GM attempted to stay away from it in the first place. Less parts, cheaper, lighter, more powerful than a locomotive, able toolwilkrewevoliqoEdited by: hoot

Repeat? What's been repeated?


Don't you think that those who want to get a lift pump should get one that still allows fuel to flow if it malfunctions?


Like I've been asking everyone since the beginning, if you have a problem with any of my statements of fact, then please, for the benefit of all, correct me!


Otherwise, in lieu of anything factual to state about the topic, why encourage members to waste bandwidth and foul up a thread with this personal crap?


I have never made a personally abusive statement against anyone. I have conveyed a lot of useful information to this site in a small period of time - all the time asking for corrections and correcting my infor as new info surfaces.


Why are you targeting me with this personal BS?

Sorry Mr. X.

No problem whatsoever hoot.


I just wish everyone could be friends have fun.

Mr X wrote


like I've been asking everyone since the beginning, if you have a problem with any of my statements of fact, then please, for the benefit of all, correct me!





Please Mr X I really respect your-your expert opinion. I'm so glad we have you to keep us straight with all these facts. Would you please please give me the details on how my Bosch pump will self destruct if my lift pump fails. Will it-it be like a bomb or something. I really wouldn't want to get my wittle self hurt. I did pull the fuse on my lift pump and measure the vac at idle and WOT and it did seem kinda OK. Have I been sitting on a time BOMB for 18000 miles.


Thanks in advance for your expert obsession - I mean opinionhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

a bear,


1st, I never claimed to be an expert at all. Just passing along Kennedy's very own words that he quoted from Bosch.


Here's some more from Kennedy on this subject, 4/21/03:
Word is, that the VP44 pump on the Cummins runs throughout Europe w/o a lift pump, and have a VERY low failure rate. US applications have added lift pumps, and have MUCH higher pump failure rates. This is partially due to failiure of the lift pumps causing severe restriction on the injection pump.


Just what I was told...


Tructh is, there really isn't much out there that can pump diesel continuously AND reliably along with allowing a "pull through" design so as to allow normal operation in the event of failure...


I understand that the Cummins lift pump does not allolw by-pass/flow thru in case of a faulure. Therefore, the injection pump (VP44) goes dry and it kills it. We have the VP44.


BTW, isn't Kennedy the one that sold you that lift pump after your Mega filter kept causing you to stall? Funny he would go against the Bosch recommendation.


I assume you must have a lift pump with a by-pass that still allows fuel flow if it malfunctions. Is a an AC Delco? Aren't they rated for about 60,000 miles? Don't you need still another filter to protect the AC Delco lift pump?


How do you have it wired? Need a relay? Did you wire it to an oil pressure switch so in case of an accident, it will turn off, and not continue pumping diesel all over the scene?


Seems like a lot of extra trouble just to make a filter work; especiallyh since the experts have concluded ther's no problem with "outgassing" and cavitation. A Bear, weren't you the one that first invented the word "out gassing?"


My only recommendation was to make sure that if a lift pump were used, it had a by-pass in case of lift pump failure.


Are you saying that that is bad advice?


What exactly do you not agree with. Or are you just another TDP person coming over here with a chip on your shoulder?

And on and on and on





Moderators???

First Diesel,


Already trying to get censorship on here? Try to be more specific about what you disagree with rather than just off the wall wisecracks.

You want to know. It's your continually harping against certain filters, using a lift pump and anything else you seem to feel you know more about than people that have actually done something like TESTING.


It's your continually trying to sound impressive by using data that you dig up and post like it is gospil even when it has nothing to do with the post or is wrong.


It's your continual crying about being attacked when your just as guilty of attacking.


Why did you have to come here under a new name?? Maybe because no one wanted to play nice with you anymore?? Didn't last long here either did it?


It's not censorship MR X. it's trying to keep topics moving ahead with real information and not info that is made up or quoted out of context to make it fit your point.


You asked, I told you.

To answer your questions.


Did Kennedy sell you that lift pump after you had a stall? Nope and also no stall.


Is a an AC Delco? Yep


Aren't they rated for about 60,000 miles? Dunno/Don't care


Don't you need still another filter to protect the AC Delco lift pump? Nope


How do you have it wired? Ignition


Need a relay? Nahhhh


Did you wire it to an oil pressure switch so in case of an accident, it will turn off, and not continue pumping diesel all over the scene? Yep, but soon to change.


Seems like a lot of extra trouble just to make a filter work; especiallyh since the experts have concluded ther's no problem with "outgassing" and cavitation. Did someone say there is no outgassing. Hmmmm, How did they verify this? This is simple physics. Maybe you should ask the ones who got their hands dirty researching this. Maybe I should not be dealing with 60,000 barrels of oil a day that contains about 6mmcfd flash gas (6 million cubic feet) which is calculated and measured to API standards at many different stages based pressure drops and temps among others.


A Bear, weren't you the one that first invented the word "out gassing?" Nope, but I used the statement to stay on the same page with others. Never heard of the word before I got here. Feel free to check. I know its one of your specialties.


What exactly do you not agree with. Or are you just another TDP person coming over here with a chip on your shoulder? I think everyone here knows what I disagree with. I think many others share that feeling. No chip, nor am I trying to push a lift pump. I think everyone is very capable of making their own informed desision for their setup.


Frankly I will no longer respond to your experties. Conflict is no way to start a forum unless it is constructive. Just thought I would set the record straight on your questions.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

a bear,


On 8/15/03, I asked you if you could keep running with a Mega filter if your lift pump quit. Below is your response.


Your words/not mine!


As far as the lift pump goes It WILL NOT leave you stranded. Just ride as normal untill you change the pump. Who cares if you have to bleed once in a tank of fuel only in the summer while finding the time to change it out.


I gathered from the below Kennedy post of 5/19/03, that you bought it from him. I guess he gave it to you?


I have Abear running a small lift pump. From what I am told, the transfer side of the Bosch pump is a vane type pump, and there is no apparent "weakness" or area that would be built for vacuum and succumb to psi. We'll see how Tommy does. Initial findingsare that the lift pump when stalled (not running) will increase restriction by about 2"hg. This isn't really all that bad considering that there is a 1" difference from E to F on the tank level.


Insofar as "outgassing" not being a problem... The experts have weighed in saying that air/vapor bubbles are not the same as cavitation and do not cause the same damage as cavitation.


DuramaxAlliTech even joked about it.


If you want to talk about outgassing, lets meet at the local Mexican resturaunt and have some wet burritos. I think we will have properly defined it and know quite a bit about it at the end of the night. Cavitation? fancy term used by me dentist cause I eat too much sugar and drink too much Coke...I dont know who said it, but if it was an issue, dont you think Bosch would have done something by now?


I do not claim expertise. Just total independence from any vendor's influence whatsoever.


I don't get Kennedy freebies for my truck.

abear ..........right on track http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


I still think the lift pump/filter has great merit and given time GM will to. The cost of of the assembly at the manafacturers level has to be less than the cost of replacing one injector over the life of the vehicle. I would like to know actually how clean a new dodges filter cleans fuel.........any help from dodge guys reading would be appreciated.........if you are not a member yet I would avoid the letters H,B,X AND Yhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifVINNIE

Turbovinnie,


With the "outgassing and "cavitation" threats put to rest as false alarms, how is a lift pump supposed to prolong the life of injectors?

I was talking with the tech at my local dealer while they upgraded my 2002 software and he was telling me they had to replace 2 injectors and one inj pump in the 3 years the 6.6 has been out. He said it was pretty amazing but the inj pump had self destructed with pieced in the engine compartment, but the truck was driven into the shop and ran, although with less power.





lift pumps. Having put over 750,000 miles an a couple of 6.2s I found the trucks would run without the lift pumps. The service manager told me that it could have been a couple years like that. The biggest problem with the lift pumps is caused by them freezing in the winter.


Like HOOT said the dodge and gm setups are a "system" . The older Fords used the same inj. pump gm used , however gm needed to put a flow shut off in the pumps so they wouldn't loose prime , get air and Ford didn't.


Are the injectors on the d max more tempermental than those on the 6.2 ? I got 425,000 miles out of my original injectors on my 88 6.2





Terry


Northeast Diesel Gettogether Sept 27


www.dieselgettogether.com (http://www.dieselgettogether.com)

I gathered from the below Kennedy post of 5/19/03, that you bought it from him. I guess he gave it to you? Yep, The lift pump was a trade off for information gathering while John was busy getting ready for the Dino Run. I earned the pump. I have nothing to hide.


Dig! Dig! Dig! You will never catch me in a lie. I told you in the past It's not my style. The truth is always easy to remember.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

When trucks with a stock fuel system (no lift pump) and a set of bigger injectors can throw out black smoke like a coal fired locomotive from 0-100+ mph I wouldn't say the injecton pump is starving for fuel.

BY PUSHING FUEL THRU A BETTER THAN THE OEM FILTER WITH NO WORRIES OF ADDITIONAL RESTRICTION OR AIR ENTERING THRU OEM FITTINGS DESIGNED ORIGINALLY FOR PRESSURE. iF YOU PREFER YOUR SYSTEM TO SUCK THATS YOUR CHOICE.........GOD HELP US WE DO AGREE THAT CLEANER FUEL IS BETTER.........


VINNIE


PS


I DO HAVE A LIFT PUMP( A FM 100 FOR 10K MILES) AND I PURCHASED IT FROM RELIABLE..........IT WAS NOT A GIFT BUT X I WILL ALLOW YOU TO PAY FOR IT AND ILL BE YOUR FRIEND.........PAYPAL TO VTATAGULIA@YAHOO.COM $200 WILL BE ENOUGH AFTERALL ITS USED

mtomac,


I guess the concern is that the addition of a 2 mic filter may cause too much restriction for the current pump. Are you running with an aftermarket filter too?


Frank Blum aka Turbo Diesel, said it wasn't that much of a restriction to worry about:


4/11/03:


I think adding a lift pump is totally unnecessary and would open up a can of worms. I can count on one hand the industrial systems I've seen with a charging pump. The data that came with my Racor said the pressure drop is .05 @ 30 PSI. I don't know how much it would add to the total suction head. I suspect not very much. Later!

Turbovinnie,


I want my system to do what it was designed to do and in this case - it sucks (pun intended) We have folks like MTomac running high 12' in the 1/4 with it just sucking. He just said at WOT with an even bigger set of injectors the truck/pump doesn't appear to be fuel starved at all.


Even Kennedy does not see any value to a lift pump other than preventing "outgassing" or vapor bubbles in the fuel line which chuntag95 has found to be normal in our trucks:


Kennedy 4/11/03,


...Aside from possible "outgassing" and vac leak elimination, I really see no need for a lift pump. There just isn't a ton of flow in this thing, just STEADY flow...

but as I believe mike can confirm he is running no additional filter yet. there are some fairly quick dmaxes that run more than one filter and a lift pump whether you deem it necessary or not......





ps


cashiers check or money order will be fine.......but nothing personalhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gifEdited by: TurboVinnie

I'll be the first in line to get a lift pump if it will prolong the life of my truck. But so far it only appears to be introducing a weak link, except for some to prevent some (unmentionable) problems.


Does yours have by-pass flow if it quits/malfunctions. I'm not trying to be an alarmist. But just check over at the Cummins sites. Or, run a google search for "VP44 lift pump."


Their OEM pumps are crapping out and destroying the VP44. They are going after market with the Carters but they also do not allow flow when they quit.


The main problem for the injection pumps is insufficient lubricity with the low sulfur fuel. Additives add much needed lubricity.

yes two valves and its back to oem and it works


on edit if you can get those little bubbles to go away with pressure in stead of suction theres a good chance the spray and atomization of fuel will be better and a increase in fuel economy might appear........my heavy right foot has not relented.....but the last dozen or so tanks seem to reveal 30 or so more miles per tank


VEdited by: TurboVinnie

Mr X, I am not Turbo Diesel anywhere. I am Lone Eagle on the diesel page and lately I have been using my given name there also. My post talked about the Racor only and as far as I know the Racor following aren't using an additional lift pump. If I were having drive ability problems I would put one on in a heartbeat. I believe we need the additional filter and what ever hardware necessary to prevent cavitation/outgasing/stalling/priming etc. I don't know why GM chose to bolt the lift pump to the HP pump. If I had a 100K on mine, I would trash both filters and install a Mega in the OEM location. For now, I will run what I have and watch it. Later! Frank

I'm running Post OEM Racor 690R2. No problems and no lift pump. That doesn't mean the other options are better or worse but I must concede that the more you filter, the more vacuum you create which means a lift pump helps.

No doubt in my mind.

Mr X. If you don't like the lift pump idea, just say so http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Edited by: hoot

I've said it a hundred times, I'll be the first in line to get one if it will prolong the life of my truck. So far, the "experts" that I've read (Kennedy, Frank Blum among others) say either it isn't recommended, or, it is only needed to stop air from forming in the fuel lines, which, we have learned from Chuntag95, is normal and occurs in stock trucks.


One concern is the flow restriction but George Morrison put that one to rest a long time ago saying our pumps had more than enough pull to deal with an added filter:


10/27/02:


In talking with a Racor engineer last week, our Bosch pump is consertavitely rated 60 inches! Our current OEM filter draws less than 8 inches, so an additional filter is no problem; in fact GM is currently working on a primary to put in between the present filter and the tank. What do you think that is telling us
It can therefore easily handle a both a primary and secondary fuel filter, especially if one or both are synthetic or microglass media. Moreover, if it is 'clean' fuel that the pump is processing, THAT is the key to both pump and injector life. i.e. if the pump has twice the load, if the fuel is ultra-clean, the increased load is much better than processing dirty fuel at half the load..



George Morrison, STLE CLS



Frank Blum,


Did you say those words that I attributed to you? In effect saying, "A lift pump is opening a new can of worms." Isn't teh RACOR the smallest an dpotentially the most restrictive between the CAT, MEGA and RACOR?


I agree if you have driveability problems, stalling etc. you need a lift pump. Experts on teh Aftermarket Fuel Filter thread dismissed teh cavitation and outgassing as not a concern.


DieselGod,


Once again mostly negative personal BS but no real diesel-related contribution.


BTW, how can you be a diesel god if you don't even know we have the VP44 injection pumps in our trucks? It is also coupled with a gear type lift pump to feed it.


So, according the experts, unless it's fixing stalling/driveability problems, the lift pump ain't doing jack except introducing a weak link (60,000 service life) in your 225,000+ mile fuel system.


Brokers has two trucks, 800,000 combined miles w/o lift pumps running pre-oem RACORS. He's no more a myth than diesel god or GM smitty aka smitty. But, just becauwse he is saying something you don't want to hear, (that maybe you are barking up the wrong tree with this lift pump), you defame him, assassinate his character and try to ignore his good, positive news about our trucks.


Same "good ole boys" crowd in here doing the same crap as over on TDP. If you go against their line of reasoning, you'll get swarmed with a bunch of personal crap until they force the topic to be closed.


Once again, if you can show me solid evidence that a lift pump actually prolongs the service life of my truck, I'll install one the same day.

Mr. X said:

Once again, if you can show me solid evidence that a lift pump actually prolongs the service life of my truck, I'll install one the same day.



Phil, I think they install the lift pump so they can make their signature longer. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Seriously, the guys going the lift pump route were having accumulated air problems so they tried the pump.

Notice no one ever thought about a lift pump until the Mega came. Not knocking the Mega but that's where the realization that vacuum and added filter restriction could cause problems.

Reducing undissolved air could improve fuel injector spray pattern and efficiency.


You are jumping all over durability when that's not the only reason. These trucks run better and get better mileage when the fuel is filtered down to 2m. That has been pretty much accepted.

It is also possible that a lift pumped system which I think we all agree helps maintain solution, also improves injection performance, hence, engine performance.

I have no proof.

Rumour has it the 2004 injectors have a different spray pattern.
Edited by: hoot

Mr. X,


Since I do not know anything about a fuel system I will play devils advocate with you.


I have just a few questions, and then I hope to put my filter knowledge to bed http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif





First off, isn't the gm/bosch common rail sytem a vaccum draw from the tank thru the filter in comparison to a lift pump which I assume would be a push to the filter and on thru. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif


Second, why do you want a push / pull system??? in my estimation only one is needed.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif


Three, does air not always rise to the highest point or does it function like a brake / hydraulic system is it not pushed to a place it can escape from??? IE a bleeder or thru an injector????http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif


Why does only some secondary fiter designs trap air while others do not and do they pass the air thru the injectors or simply thru the return line of the common rail only to be returned to the fuel tank ??http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif


I guess my final comment without being sarcastic as I am not trying to be, what does it matter??? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Stern Smile.gif


If you want secondary filtration then I beleive you and everyone else can and will choose an avenue that best fits their own personal budget and preference.


If you want to know I will be running a pre oem cat setup. http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs%20Up.gif


In my estimation for mounting location, ease of fiter change and cost of filters as well as filter availability and the simple fact that I won't need a lift pump are my reasons.


I don't need to entertain any other system as I know what I want and am happy with my choice. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


I will only bleed out air on fiter changes. In my estimation a idiot proof system.


I do appreciate your comments as well as everyone elses.


TO EACH THERE OWN.


This is why we are all here.





If the horse is dead http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif, let us not beat it any further shall we...........





GMC aka ---> Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifNY


Feel free to continue if you wish, we are an open book.

hoot and GMC-2002-Max,


I only know what I've read in here, TDP and on the internet. gwmayes says that the air in the fuel is like air in a freshly poured glass of water with all the little bubbles in it. It's in there and aerates out w/o being under pressure BUT and then re-compresses back into little bubbles under pressure. This is what is occurring in our stock fuel system.


Under the pressures of the pumps, the air that was visble as air bubbles in the clear line tests gets put back into solution as smaller air bubbles. Whether large or small as in entrained air, these air bubbles produce the same effect, (Unless of course something is trapping all the air and causing problems). Once injected the air in these bubbles combines with the intake air for combustion.


Therefore, since the air still remains in the fuel, even with a lift pump, I believe the only hp gain could be achieved by removing the air with one of those fuel/air separators.


I believe that if a lift pump actually did contribute to more hp, mtomac and Kennedy would have mentioned it by now. But as Kennedy has been saying all along, beyond keeping the air/vapor entrained, the lift pump does not do much else and is not needed to pump fuel.


Combined with gwmayes and DuramaxAlliTech dismisssal of the air/outgassing and/or cavitation problems as false alarms, it appears the only real problem this air/vapor has caused is loss of prime and stalling on certain (unnamed) filtrers mounteed in certain (unnamed places).


Otherwise the air/vapor normally found in diesel #2 results in bubbles normally found in the fuel lines of our stock trucks past the EDU.


Finally, we have just learned from the experts that we had mistakingly equated vapor and air-filled bubbles with cavitation when, in fact, the air bubbles do not do the same harm as does cavitation which is airless voids (cavities) in the fuel.


Out of here!

since "you" only know what you have learned from the internet know this:


there are benefits to the lift pump/additional filter scenario :


1. additional filtration without additional restriction.


2. better performance(inregards to fuel atomization and injector pattern) which would help produce more fuel economy.


3. fuel thats pushed intead of sucked reduces the liklyhood of air sucked in thru connections designed for pressure.


4. the ability to add an additional tank(s) and plumb easilly into the lift pump housing.


5. priming after a filter change with the twist of a key.


6. and most important, having something that X(hb) does not have giving him something to bitch and rant about, so people will talk to him.





vinnie


ps im still waiting on my friendship moneyEdited by: TurboVinnie

Turbovinnie,

The "fuel atomization" and injector pattern" sounds cool. Where did you get that from?

Star Trek http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

You funny Hoot. I am not responding to you know who again. My wife knows more about this topic than he does. I just got back from a 450 mile trip up near Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I went to the same place at the same time of year last year. Mileage was better this year by 1.9 MPG. Only change was more miles on the truck and the secondary filter. Go figure! Later! Frank http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

mr x spouted


"sounds cool. Where did you get that from?"


from the internet if of course..............its where you by addmission learned it all


hoot, the dylithium crystals for your buddie x's argument are getting weak.


frank, Im seeing a 30 to 35 miles pertank increase......generally when I fill up its around 22 to 23 gallons


v
Edited by: TurboVinnie

Turbovinnie,


I directly quote my sources. Anyone that wants can check where my information came from. These folks didn't post their information for it NOT to be used.


Or, are you saying that Frank Blum, George Morrison, John Kennedy and gwmayes are all wrong and only YOU are right?


Where's your sources? A sales brochure?


Of course Frank's switching around some facts did have us a little confused there on the little bubble vs cavity contents in the cavitation issue.


Right Frank?

I personally think there's benefits to having less air as stated above.......not that I think just a lift pump and a couple of good filters would maKe afuel preporator but if the small bubbles were reduced in any amount and fuel cleaner some of the results would be similar........I think this link has been around before if you have not seen it then check it out. http://www.fuelpreporator.com/theStory.html


I lot of this makes sense to me... of course they are trying to sell a product. Just my opinion and not the twisted and spun opinons of other good people.


V

Mr X Isn't that called "Plagiarism" when you use someones words without their permission? Do you really know anything about this topic or just using someone else's knowledge you are posting on? Only time will tell which set up is best and maybe 50,000 miles from now, all of us will wish we did something different, but that will be our choice and not yours. I don't have any secondary filter yet, but I am going to put one on and all your " Someone said this was good" remarks will not sway me one bit. What I choose will be on my back.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Have a good day!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Directly quoting someone's statements made in a public forum and providing attribution of each statement by name and date of their statements is the exact opposite of plagiarism.


All of these cheap accusations are easy - cheap shots. Please provide one instance wherein I twisted someone's words to fit some kind of agenda.


THESE ARE THE VIEWS OF THE TOP EXPERTS POSTED IN A PUBLIC FORUM FOR ALL TO SEE AND TO BENEFIT FROM.


I have never, ever taken credit for their pioneering work. To the contrary I am very careful to provide full attribution to the original authors.


So now because of your own personal animus towards me, (The famous "Mr X)," their hard pioneering and research work is worthless because I have quoted them?


All of this name calling and deliberate disregard of expert opinion in favor of slamming me seems kind of infantile.


TX-DMAX, get yourself a secondary filter on that truck!

a bear,


Per your advise I did some digging. But first you r very own words of 9/8/03:





Did Kennedy sell you that lift pump after you had a stall? Nope and also no stall.








Dig! Dig! Dig! You will never catch me in a lie. I told you in the past It's not my style. The truth is always easy to remember.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif





a bear,


Seems like, contrary to your denail, you DID have no start and stalling problems from the Mega filter.


a bear post of 4/3/03:


a bear:


...Did I get a no start if the Mega was not bled after about 350-400 mi ? YES<BR style="mso-special-character: line-break"><BR style="mso-special-character: line-break">My best guess is that the air that would normally pass through the system in very small quantities and undetected accumulates in the Mega over time. In my case 350-400 mi. Then after setting a while the truck is started, runs for about 10 secs. Then Gulp..


Sounds to me like it sure does stall after running 10 sec. Hate for my wife w/kid to be pulling out in traffic around here and stall like that.

Talk about quotes:


"Open the hood on your 03 GM truck some night and admire that beatuful engine. Oops sorry, forgot, GM decided a underhood light was too exspensive ona $45,000 truck."


Now that's a fact.


Thanks Sam, I needed that http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Mr X,


Stall and no start is a little bit different. I think it was common knowledge on the DP that I did experience a no start. I posted it more than once. Man you are so easy. I did expect that reply by the way. You are now so predictable. I guess the definition of stall and no start will be next. That would be real lame. But again....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif


Like I told you before, being dishonest was not in my up bringing. Why is that so difficult for you?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


On edit: Didn't you drive some 150 miles to have a qualified mechanic install your filter. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif


Edited by: a bear

Turbovinnie,


I agree that eliminating air and burning pure fuel would boost performance. However, I do not believe that the lift pump eliminates air. I believe it just keeps it from vaporizing.


a bear,


In plain English I'd say that if a truck starts, then stops, that's a stall.


For example, if my wife starts the truck and is halfway out into oncoming traffic, and then it stops, I think the policeman would call that a "stall."


Now if a truck don't start, then that is a "no start."

I knew it! I knew it! Man you are so easy.


Well I guess one could interpret it differently. I usually associate a stall with a moving vehicle or some place one would shelter an a_s. Where do you stay.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gifEdited by: a bear

a bear,
Dictionary definition of “stall”

- The sudden, unintended loss of power or effectiveness in an engine.
- To cause (a motor or motor vehicle) accidentally to stop running.
- To stop running as a result of mechanical failure.



What part of "stall" don't you get?


GOTCHA!

Think I'll go hibernate.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Sleepy.gif Edited by: a bear

Me to a bear. Later! Frankhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

I don't have any additional filtration or a lift pump on my truck. My truck still has the stock fuel system. I don't think adding a filter after 65000 miles will do me any good. Maybe dirty fuel has already "doomed" my injectors but I doubt it. I want to see how far I can go "performance wise" on the stock fuel system so I won't be altering it unless there is a real performance gain to be had. Additional filtration won't make the truck any faster or pull farther so I'm not persuing cleaner fuel. IF my injectors ever do go south I'll just put a set of bigger aftermarket ones in anyway.

I think GM/Isuzu/Bosch/IHI did a great job on this motor when you look at how much power it is capable of making with just computer tuning. 500RWHP and high 12's out of a 4wd crewcab truck isn't too bad. The Powerstroke and the Cummins can't come close to the power the Duramax in making when those two have to use the stock turbo, stock injectors and stock fuel system, without using nitrous or propane. Edited by: mtomac

mtomac,

If we are experiencing mileage improvements with better filtration it is possible that would translate into a small performance gain. You have said in the past, every little bit counts.

Make sure when you get performance injectors that they aren't simply using old style soft-seat cores.

You are gettin 500RWHP?

Mike

The combo I'm running right now dynoed 489 on another truck.

My mileage sucks 15-16 running these big boxes, its' hard to keep your right foot out of it

I'm looking for another 50-100 hp. I doubt a filter is giving much of a performance increase. I'm concentrating on other things like, bigger downpipe, water injection, bigger injectors, bigger turbo, nitrous, making the truck lighter, drivshaft loops, roll bar, ect.

I would buy a new set of injectors or have my old ones modified. I know about the oh-ones. Edited by: mtomac

Turbovinnie,

chuntag95 ran clear line from the fuel tank to the pump w/o any mods or added filters, and discovered that air or outgassing of fuel vapors regularly occurs in our stock trucks.

Below is a quote from a64pilot, an Apache helicopter test pilot who was one of the first to state that pressurizing our fuel system would stop the vaporization. However, he also stated taht our fuel systems were engineered for this vaporization and that it hasn't been a problem.

From a64pilot
posted &lt; language=1.3 =text/&gt; document.writeln(timestamp(new Date(2003,4,29,14,4,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </>05-29-2003 02:04 PM </v:stroke></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:ulas></v:path><o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"></o:lock></v:shape></v:imagedata></v:shape> (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00005094) <A href="http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=3;t=005741;reply_nu m=000120;u=00005094" target="_blank"><v:shape id=_x0000_i1028 style="WIDTH: 14.4pt; HEIGHT: 12.6pt" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="Edit/Delete Post" target="_blank" href="http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=edit_post;f=3;t=005741;reply_nu m=000

x should I send you a juice so you will have somthing else to bitch about..........the horse is dead and pushing up mushrooms. Use what you got and be proud...........Quit trying to save the world......we are all big boys.


mike t, I agree


x im done with you here, come to the war room and let me kick that but again


vEdited by: TurboVinnie

Just providing some more pertinent expert opinion in reply to your post about air, and, answering a bear's question about my install.


Aren't I allowed?


Don't have time for the War Room if you cannot back up cheap shots with facts/example.