I have ordered DSG's hi-pops :ro)and they should arrive tomorrow afternoon. This will be the first time i will be changing injectors myself and would appreciate your guys help with this.

Special tools needed?
Torque Specifications?
Proper procedure to change em?
Is any bleeding of the system required or just install and start?

Any and all help with this will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

CR-

Having went that route. I can give you some advice...

The BIG #1 ALL TIME RULE IS:
Cleanliness is next to Godliness with injectors.

Do the passenger side first. I removed the turbo. Some brave souls have done it without, but I personally dont see how its possible. If you remove the coolant resevoir, you can get to the donwpipe clamp much more easlily. Putting that damn clamp back on seemed like 50% of the PITA factor (untill I removed the coolant bottle).

Take your time and DO NOT hurry. Plan on spending an entire day up to your pits in truck-guts.

Use the push on return lines! Available from Kennedy diesel. They save hours.

I did not prime or bleed my truck. I just let, 'er crank till it fired up. It ran real ragged for about 5-10 minutes, then smoothed out.

Best of luck to ya!
Tim

OK, keep out the dirt, got that. Any torque value or just make em good and tight?
Any parts/gaskets for re-installing the turbo later needed?

I just ordered the kit from DSG to install them, pretty sure they clamp on as factory, hope that will surfice.

OK, keep out the dirt, got that. Any torque value or just make em good and tight?
Any parts/gaskets for re-installing the turbo later needed?

I just ordered the kit from DSG to install them, pretty sure they clamp on as factory, hope that will surfice.
IIRC the injectors touque to 45 FT-LB. The oil line gaskets for the turbo are reusable if you are careful. There is no 'exhaust flange' gasket at all. A dip in Phillips Milk-of-Magnesia will keep the turbo bolts from galling up if you ever need to remove them again.

The clamp on return lines will work fine, they are just the Mother-of-all-*****es to install.

Tim

Need a deep 30mm socket with reliefs to clear the little drip line fittings on the injector. I like the one with a "nut" head on the top like Snap-on sells. I change them with the turbo on. Make sure you have a 12 pack on hand to ease the install. How about taking one injector apart and getting us the part number off the tip? Hope you get us some before and after results. Good luck!

OK, will have a 12 pack on hand in case the 26'er doesn't cut it. Deep 30mm, thanks i'll need to get one of those. Before results pretty much as stated in other posts, will see what the hi-pops do for me.

My real concern is if my down pipe is in the way, because of the way its put together i have to damn near drop the exhaust to move it out of the way, hopfully its not in the way but i haven't looked yet. If i can firuge out how to take one apart i'll get you any numbers you want, i already have a set of 8 from my 95 here, need a part # from one of those?

I've found being able to slip the downpipe off the exhaust, very easy.

30mm deep socket impossible to find in regular tool sources. Check out automotive suppliers for socket used on front ends. Some will rent you the tool. Cheaper than buying the official injector tool too.

If i can firuge out how to take one apart i'll get you any numbers you want, i already have a set of 8 from my 95 here, need a part # from one of those?
I know all the stock tip numbers. I just want the numbers off the "performance" tips so I can aquire some for testing. Seems the suppliers of these nozzle holder assemblies use different tips.

Easy way to take apart is to turn the nozzle assembly upside down and clamp the body in a vise. Using a suitable wrench take the nozzle tip nut off. The tip will either be sitting there or still in the nut due to carbon. The numbers will be on the side of the tip.

last 3 digits should be 311

I'm not sure about taking a new hi-pop apart, if i bugger something my warrenty will be hooped, with my luck i'd drop a part and loose it. You might have to wait a year or two until i pull them again.

Slipping the downpipe off is probably easy QM until you've installed a 4" D'max system into a 6.5, things get a little tight.

I just found a pop tester and will also test my old injectors after i pull them as long as they have the right fitting to adapt to these injectors (freebie). At least that should tell me if mine were pooched as i suspect. Makes me wonder that if i'm loosing 25 HP with pooched injectors then with hi-pops installed it will be like a 50 HP gain!

Want to make your life a lot easier? Remove the passenger side inner wheel well. It makes getting the downpipe and turbo so much easier to get off. The 15 minutes it takes to remove it will be made up for by the easy access you'll have.

You may want to purchase or borrow the correct socket - it'll have releifs cut into the corners, so that the fuel nipples don't get damaged.

I picked up the 30mm deep socket at Napa, not the special one needed but appears it will do the job, i guess if i have difficulty bending or breaking return line nipples i'll have to customize it with the Dremel.

Hi-pops didn't arrive today :-(
Oh well there's always tomorrow.
I've also been waiting for DSG to get back to me on their inter cooler, the guy said they haven't sold one yet and i wanted to know how and where it installed, if i can't find one that mounts in front of the rad i think i'm going to get one made at a rad shop!

I'm in proccess of changing these injectors, the kit for the lines didn't come with clips (i've wrecked a few coming off), the lines are different also, they seem to be a slight bit smaller and have a cloth wrapping, would these possibly not require the clips and just be the slip on type as sold elsewhere or will i need new clips? Also looks like i'm going to have to pick up a proper socket, kinda buggered a return line on one injector taking em out and don't want to do that putting them in.

So theres no exhaust gasket below the turbo. Should anything be used there?

CR, please post the details on the DSG IC, that is when you receive them! I am also not willing to put an IC on the front skid plate and have been waiting for someone to develop something for in front of the radiator.

On the turbodiesel register, a ford Ps IC was fit into a '94 GM with (with very little sheetmetal trimming and a tray welded in) a cummins and seriesed turbos.

I use a 30mm deep impact socket and it has worked well.

CR,
I chose not to weld the down pipe to the exhaust pipe. that's the ease I refered to. It leaks a tiny bit of exhaust(as evidenced by the soot stain) but I've seen the value of detaching it, dropping the downpipe and removing the turbo/exhaust as a unit. Easy out, easy back in. No reason to fret over oil return line gaskets or correct positioning.

My down pipe isn't welded to the exhaust, its clamped but has a 3.5 x 4" swage there thats slipped inside a good 1.5", thats what makes it difficult to remove, anyways the pipe is still in place, i have the 4 injectors in the holes on that side, just don't want to break the returns on em with a regular deep socket as i buggered 1 taking em out.

Hey i just re-read your post, sounds like you pull the down pipe with the turbo?

Here is the link to DSG's IC picture, the guy still hasn't called me back on it and i will call again after this post. DSG Intercooler (http://www.dieselservices.com/webstore/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=227&CFID=164424&CFTOKEN=75046327)

I'm following gmctd's lead and getting a salvaged unit (Ps maybe) the spearco never materialized. I'll have to plumb it myself.

I just talked with DSG, the IC is a new product for them and they're doing the first install today on another truck. The guy will let me know where and how it installs in the next couple of days and i will post when i get the info.

I'm following gmctd's lead and getting a salvaged unit (Ps maybe) the spearco never materialized. I'll have to plumb it myself.And let us know how that goes too.......With lots of pictures too....

I hate to burst anyone's bubble about that DSG Intercooler...

It looks like Turbo Tech's unit that has been around for quite a while. I think BD even sells them.

It will not produce the same results as the Spearco unit for the simple reason that it is smaller.

Oh yea, one other thing...

Mounts in a similar location as the Spearco.

DSG. Isn't that diesel service group in Saskatoon? I bought a intercooler off them this spring for my 98 1/2 ton that mounted where your skid plate goes.Fairly easy to install, hard part was getting quality clamps on hose as i kept blowing off the ones that they sent with the kit.

Only drove it a couple of blocks as it was late.

After many smashed and mashed nuckles i'm happy to say the hi-pops are in. I thought it would be harder to start when i was done, to my surprise it started rather quickly and smoothed right out after 5-10 seconds of running. I took it for a short burn but didn't notice any difference from stock?

I will warm her right up tomorrow and go for another run, i will check the old injectors on the pop tester in a couple of days to see if this was a justified change.


To my surprise i was having difficculty changing out the drivers side injectors when i dropped my rachet on #7, after picking it up from beneath the truck and standing up beside the fender (smoke in hand), low and behold i had a vision, i could see the injectors from outside the fender!!!! 4 or 5 extensions later i was able to pop out #3, #5 & #7 while standing beside the truck and installed em from there also, damn i whish someone had told me that!

Anyways, she's running again but for some reason the check engine light is on after this short run, is that normal? Why would it come on? I was extremely careful and dont think i bumped anything to make it come on?

I guess i can add DSG Hi-Pops to the sig now but am getting very disspointed by other posts with better times with less mods!!!

I hate to burst anyone's bubble about that DSG Intercooler...

It looks like Turbo Tech's unit that has been around for quite a while. I think BD even sells them.

It will not produce the same results as the Spearco unit for the simple reason that it is smaller.

Oh yea, one other thing...

Mounts in a similar location as the Spearco.Adding insult to injury is the fact that the Turbo Tech is not a very "clean" install. You need to cut into your wheel well for pipe routing. If you're really going to go the frame mount route, do what you need to do in order to fit the big Spearco.

Ugh! Did I really say that?

You said it Spin...

Finally... I new you'd come around.

Not only is it smaller, But Ugly as well. I've seen pictures of an install with the outlet pipe(I think) being routed outside the framerail into the R/S wheelwell.

Not on my truck...


Yes. Beg, borrow, steal, modify, reinforce. Whatever it takes to do the Spearco.

Priceless...

Okie dokie here's the scoop

Check engine light was a bad vac line to WG, fixed that now initial boost pegs to 18 PSI on hard accel for a second. Then awhile after the fix the light came on again, fiddled with the selonoid and seemed to fix it again, will still have to investigate that further. BTW you can clear the light with the key/peddle procedure as i did it twice now.

Question: If i were to go with a turbo master or other and get rid of the vac pump can i stop it from throwing codes for that?

Hi-pops have not seemed to make any difference that the seat of the pants are telling me but so far it doesn't seem to have its little stumble yet and idles just fine. I'm beginning to wonder about timing now, so off to the dealer i went and put it on the scan tool for a couple of numbers and here's what the Tech2 said.

Desired 12.1
Actual 12.2
TDC Offset 0.97
Closure time 1.9 ms

These are at an idle with the engine warmed up.

Question: Although these numbers are like reading french to me what do they tell you guys and where should they be at for maximum performance without throwing codes?

With being chipped/reprogrammed i would like to set the timing for maximum performance to match the mods so far. I will be taking the truck back to the dealer and have them set timing as per recommendations from your input.

Thanks for your help!

Did you get a nozzle number off your new injectors?

The tdc offset can go to -1.9 that's a degree more advanced.

Timing may be too advanced at +12deg idle, -0.97deg TDC Offset not retarded enough for performance.

+8.5 Desired and Measured with -1.5deg TDC Offset is correct for OBD-I

Hold off a bit - will have more OBD-II info, shortly

Did you get a nozzle number off your new injectors? Sorry but i didn't pull one apart.

The TDC Offset was 0.97, i'm not sure but shouldn't the Tech 2 have minus sign in front of it if its a negative number such as -0.97. Does this not mean my timing is off by over 2.5 degree's?

Also what about the turbo master question? I'm thinking of making my own. What needs to be done to fool the computer if anything?

Also what about the turbo master question? I'm thinking of making my own. What needs to be done to fool the computer if anything?
You have a reflash so no fooling should be needed.

1.9ms is a pretty long closure time, and I'd venture to guess that if you watched it while you gave it some revs, you would be going over the 1.9 maximum. '98+ PCMs are more lenient about closure times, allowing 2.1ms before setting codes.

0.97 TDC offset means your pump is retarded too, needs to be advanced about 2 degrees, your '00 will relearn TDC offset just shortly after the engine warms up.

What about the WG selonoid, just leave it sitting there hooked up with out vac lines?

yeah, leave it electrically connected.
I'm not sure if completely doing away with the solenoid/vacuum system is the way I would go on this very late model 6.5. It will be tricky to make a spring perform close enough to what the PCM is expecting to make it happy.

Appears as tho the late Tech-II may not display (-) for TDC Offset value in '98-up OBD-II.

SnapOn MT2500 shows negative value, power-down, plug in Tech-II gives similar TDCO value but no sign.
Re-plug Snapon, get negative signed value.

Desired and Measured - Actual - timing is positive signed on both scanners.

Tech-II does display (+) and (-) signed TDCO values for OBD-I

gmctd: Timing may be too advanced at +12deg idle, -0.97deg TDC Offset not retarded enough for performance.
So should it be changed or is it ok there, what should the desired and actual be at?

timing should be ~8.0 degs act/des. Offset should be -1.5 to -2.0 tdc

The +12deg may have been cold advance - ECT should have been verified at 190deg.

Supposing the TDCO of 0.97deg is -0.97deg (a 2004 Tech-II gives the same indication on '98 OBD-II) a more negative value of -1.5 to -1.94 will raise, flatten, and broaden the torque curve - good for towing - and slightly increase the HP output at upper rpm end.

Check ronniejoe's post for a chart of his dyno run

He has a charge-air cooler, but you got frigid Canadian temps - much better than a c\a-cooler on a hot summer day.

OBDI reads out DES and ACT timing relative to the pump, OBDII trucks read out timing relative to crank. Engine speed, temperature and load are fed into the PCM which determines how much advance is needed, among other things. The advance the PCM determines the truck needs at any point in time is read out at DESired, ACTual is where the pump actually is, there is no magic number for what these should be, DES will constantly change as demands and conditions change, ACT just needs to follow along quickly and accurately to PCM demands for the truck to operate properly.

True - and very good info - but idle at operating temp - 190deg - is mostly around +8 - +9deg at 690 - 750rpm, ambients above 50deg.
Cold advance will be up around +12deg\idle, depending on ECT and IAT - ECT at 190deg and IAT at 20deg will get increased advance - so his figure may well have been correct.
Saw the same +12deg with ECT @ 165deg, ambients @ 55deg, dropped to +7.9deg at 185deg ECT, idle rpm low 600's.

Noticed a large number of differences in OBD-i and OBD-II interfacing, control, and display.
Got more questions than answers, again.........

So based on your info my timing may be ok? My TDC off-set may be -0.97 so if this is the case do i really need mess with it to get +/- -1.9 degree's, will 1 degree make that much of a difference?

If your TDC offset is indeed actually set at -0.97, then your good, but it is likely set at positive 0.97 then you may not be getting full advance range from the IP and you should advance the pump about a degree to get it right. It will make a difference. I would mark where it is real good, advance it a hair and see what happens to the TDC offset.

So much info without the right tools (scanner).... this sucks.

Any how did the pop test on the old injectors i pulled, they all pop @ 1000 psi, 2 or 3 of them had more of a squirt than the mist to them so i think the hi-pops were justified, now if i could only get more power from those hi-pops and other mods.

yeah, sounds like they were due alright. Scanner pretty much a must have tool for these trucks.

What constitutes and injector being hi-pop? Other words what pressure makes it hi-pop and what pressure is normal?

I just noiced on the box these DSG's say nozzle # 09/15/04DB, looks more like a date to me except for the DB. Code says 2150 PSI.

While adj the IP and playing with my OBD-I, TDCO moved from -1.5deg to +1.5deg, where the engine barely ran, with Desired and Actual at +0deg.

Don't know how there could be a +0deg or a -0deg, since 0deg is TDC, but -

Returning the IP back to +8.5deg position recovered Desired\Actual and TDCO -1.5.

I really don't think your 0.97deg is a positive value, based on that scenario - your truck runs well.

As in rj's post, moving from -0.7deg to -1.94deg netted +3hp gain, but improved the torque band considerably.

Difference seems to be Tech-II and OBD-II, where TDCO only gets signed value if Positive (+) ; no sign indicates Negative (-).

Shop Manuals ambiguously state similar value discrepancies.

? ? ?? ? ? ? ?

What constitutes and injector being hi-pop?...Code says 2150 PSI.
Bosch specs for these injectors is opening pressure of ~140bar (2030psi), since yours are set to 2150psi (~148 bar) which means opening pressure is higher than stock. So if your gauge was accurate for testing your old nozzles, and they opened around 1000psi and some just squirted fuel out, you definitely needed a new set, and I"m quite surprised you haven't noticed more difference in something, performance, startup, idle quality, all should be improved.

Only performance gain noted was the 2 second decrease in 0-60 time with the chip and a lot of engine rattle. All other mods = no difference. There has to be something else wrong with the truck.

Boost spools up quick and will hit 18 PSI when loaded right, cruises @ 10-11 PSI on the hiway, medium grades will boost to 15 PSI and steady, fuel rate when the chip was first installed was 79mm under load. At idle the fuel rate was 8mm when i checked it the day after installing the hi-pops.

Besides a new IP what else can i do here to find this lost power from these mods?

Weird...
I took the wiring to the pot right out yesterday, only change i made. I made a 0-60 run this morning and got 12 seconds, maybe my eyes were blurry as it was 6 a.m. Also with engine loaded just right, boost would peak to 19 PSI for a second?

One other thing i did when the turbo was off was to grind out the casting ridges inside the outlet heading out to the intake, i also took my flapper wheel on the drill and reamed out the inside of the turbo outlet on the exhaust side just above where the clamp is, it was very rough and bumpy so i figured it couldn't hurt to smooth it out some while it was out.

0 to 60 in 11.0 sec does not sound good enough for what you've done to your truck. W/15+ pounds of boost, high pops and computer you should be rippin' down the road( I would say @ 9.0sec 0-60). From what you've described I think the IP is a great place to start looking for the problem. I estimate you should be putting down 210 to 230 horse to the wheels.

MDT What kind of times are you running with your mods?

So based on your info my timing may be ok? My TDC off-set may be -0.97 so if this is the case do i really need mess with it to get +/- -1.9 degree's, will 1 degree make that much of a difference?
I happen to have had a 6.5 come into the shop today from the dealer, who brought their Tech2 with them. They had just changed the pump and wanted to know about setting TDC Offset, I checked where it was and it said 0.09 with no polarity sign. I performed the PCM reset routine and the PCM relearned TDC offset to -0.18. So, the Tech2 does show negative polarity, but shows no sign for positive, meaning, CR, your truck is set at a positive 0.97 and should be advanced/relearned.

0 to 60 in 11.0 sec does not sound good enough for what you've done to your truck. From what you've described I think the IP is a great place to start looking for the problem.
I agree with you there too, since your CTimes are in the 1.90 range, I think bringing them back down to spec, 1.60s, restoring transfer pump pressure, and reseating delivery valves will make the difference you've been looking for.

TDG I was reading a post earlier and i'm not sure but i think it was TD in another thread and possibly in another forum here was talking about these CHIPPED trucks seemed to run CT in the 1.9 range, can CT be effected by PCM and if so then i could just go back to the programmer and get him to have another look at it and once again since making mod's maybe have him do some more tweaking? All i have to do is travel 2.5 hrs, he pulles the PCM and plugs it into his computer to change things. When i questioned him on timing on the initial install he said it could all be done within the PCM.

I happen to have had a 6.5 come into the shop today from the dealer, who brought their Tech2 with them. They had just changed the pump and wanted to know about setting TDC Offset, I checked where it was and it said 0.09 with no polarity sign. I performed the PCM reset routine and the PCM relearned TDC offset to -0.18. So, the Tech2 does show negative polarity, but shows no sign for positive, meaning, CR, your truck is set at a positive 0.97 and should be advanced/relearned.
What vintage T2 and truck TDG, GMCTD & I have a theory that GM is getting wise to TDC offset an purposely fooling what the tech sees and can adjust with later trucks and tools; so they can't do things to a truck that would get GM into trouble with the smog cops. My older model MT2500 scanner showed a -2.0 offset while T2 showed a 1.67 no sign attached to it. When GMCTD adjusts his OBDI truck the T2 displays a + sign with the value displayed. Our thoughts were if error was true we should have some sort of code and truck would run like crap mine doesn't so we did not make any changes. Next trip over we may do some more playing.

Also closure rate being high may be how reflashes from various vendors are getting more power before doing any changes to that you may want to do some R&D on the bench along those lines to see if it results in more delivery.

CR, I don't know what times my truck is running but from a stop light my brother could not keep up with me in his 2004 Yukon w/ 3.73 gears. (I have 3.42's). I have been wanting to get my truck to the dyno and the track, but I'm saving for my HF/HP injectors, while working on a trick intercooler and exhaust. Don't be disappointed if your speed doesn't come down to where mine is at remember your truck probably weighs about 1000lbs more than mine.

My Truck weighs in at 7275 lbs.

Off Subject,
Started it this morning -20C not plugged in, started after a couple of revolutions, pretty rough idle and missing, shut it down after 30 seconds, re-ran glow cycle, re-fired and ran smooth after 5 seconds or so. I do need to change all my glows as i broke one while doing injectors, put in a new G60 (only one i had) so now i'm miss-matched.

upgrade the 60 to what the other's are.

Which plugs are better? The one i pulled was BERU Germany 924, 0 100 271 106 10.5V

On another side note the pulled injectors were made in France, installed ones were made in Germany. Dunno what the diff is there.

can CT be effected by PCM?
Not directly no, Closure Time is just a measure of performance, how long it takes for the Fuel Solenoid to close. The reason for keeping times under 1.9 is so that the FSol closes the poppet valve before the rollers hit the cam lobes and you get a full fuel and consistent delivery on every injection. The reason for the 1.5 minimum, is to ensure the poppet valve spring is strong enough to push the valve/armature back open to accurately end the injection event.

So to answer your question GMCTD, Long CTs can cause loss of overall fuel quantity, possible light cylinder imbalance and late timing because now your start of injection is determined by when the poppet closes instead of when the ramp starts.

CR, you've got my trucks weight beat by almost 1800lbs.

So my truck appears to be a little fat... lol

Had a MT-2500 on the truck today, once again by an ning-com-poop that didn't know how to use it on the diesel but i did get a couple of numbers for my $20.

Both desired & Actual timing were 11 degree's and TDC Off-set was -0.5
Is it just me or is the rattle in this thing getting louder by the day...

Here are some pics of the inside of the turbo and what i did to it while it was out.

OK now educate some of us less knowledgable ones.
What are we looking at ?

First pic is inside of turbo on the compressor side, where the grinding marks are is where there was a casting ridge that i ground smooth, sorry i didn't think to grab the camera until i had gound it out.

Second pic is looking up from the bottom of the turbo on the exhaust side, it was very rough in there.

Third pic is after taking the flapper wheel on the drill to smoothed it.

Fourth pic is the wastegate looking up from the bottom of the exhaust side also.

I would have put this in the original post but the forum software wouldn't give me a preview with the images?

Here is a better pic of the turbo with the casting ridge ground out.

What did the compressor wheel look like? I know MOST of the 6.5 turbos we get have bad wheels, mostly due to dirty air filters, doesn't take much dirty air to turn that wheel into a sand blaster that will eat the aluminum wheel.

The wheel looked fine, tips were shined up but aren't they all, this thing is making incredible boost, hiway cruising its between 10-11 PSI and steady, any little hill usually runs at 15-16 PSI steady to the top, punch it loaded just right and i've seen it hit 20 PSI. I don't know if grinding out that ridge helped or re-sealing it with a very light coat of RTV did it or maybe smoothing out the exhaust on the outlet or the hose to the upper plenim is holding better but she sings real good now! Could be a combination of them all.

20psi, yeah, it must look pretty stinking good then ;)

I'm not assisting it with a spring or anything else, thats just from the chip with factory vacuum canister. I've been thinking real hard on either assisting it with a spring or doing some testing with just a spring to see what happens. I noticed in the wastegate pic above in about the 4:00 position there seems to be either a chip or some material burnt off and some by-passing, i may have to take it off again just to have another look.