Anyone here work at the Tonawanda plant?

Yeah, does anyone? Will the engine be built from casting to the end of the process at Tonowanda?

I heard that all parts will be machined somewhere else, they will only put the motor together.

Yes, I work at the GM Powertrain plant in Tonawanda NY. If any of you guys have questions I will give you all the info I have. I am a Pipefitter there and will be installing the equipment to build this engine. We normally will machine the cranks, heads, and blocks but the block on this engine is an industry first ( it is a graphite block ) and we are not set up for that material so the blocks will come in already machined.

Wow... graphite!

Yes, I work at the GM Powertrain plant in Tonawanda NY. If any of you guys have questions I will give you all the info I have. I am a Pipefitter there and will be installing the equipment to build this engine. We normally will machine the cranks, heads, and blocks but the block on this engine is an industry first ( it is a graphite block ) and we are not set up for that material so the blocks will come in already machined.
Keep us informed Fellow Pipefitter! Im a Pipefitter for Timken Co. reaserch, they are busy Testing Bearings /hubs/spindles for the New GMT-900 trucks that will have the new diesel around 2010-2011.

Probably a stupid question, as i don't kno much about materials, but what is the difference between a graphite and alum. block? i know its lighter and stronger but are those the only advantages

A graphite block will also dissipate heat faster than alum. with less distortion.

Probably a stupid question, as i don't kno much about materials, but what is the difference between a graphite and alum. block? i know its lighter and stronger but are those the only advantages

Graphite ... CGI = compacted graphite iron. Somewhere between cast iron and forged steel. It has been around for a LONG time, but has not been
used much because it is more difficult to produce and more difficult to
machine.

There is plenty of information out there on the internet about this metal.
Expect to see more of it.

Graphite ... CGI = compacted graphite iron. Somewhere between cast iron and forged steel. It has been around for a LONG time, but has not been
used much because it is more difficult to produce and more difficult to
machine.

There is plenty of information out there on the internet about this metal.
Expect to see more of it.

So, will this be a major step forward??

Don't let the cat out of the bag ol' buddy!!! You might get slapped on the PP:cool::cool:. coming up next week as well!!! Got to get together!!!

CC

A graphite block will also dissipate heat faster than alum. with less distortion.

hey man when are they thinking the first 4.5's will be avaible for purchase.

expected to be released in 2009 as a 2010 model. As a crate motor....unknown.

expected to be released in 2009 as a 2010 model. As a crate motor....unknown.

o ok cool, thanks for making this clear. I didn't know if it was going to be released in 2008 as a 2009 model or release in 2009 as a 2010 model. Thanks again.

Man I wanted to get one, but graphite? I am sure the brains have done their testing. But I just can understand how it can handle the detanation over and over?

They have to be sleeved? And why not just make it cast?

Spud

So It's lighter, stronger, and better at dissipating heat. Are they any downsides to it?

Pardon my ignorance, but are the CGI blocks the ones that look like styrofoam in raw form (little balls compacted together)?

The aluminum block and heads on my caviler look this way.

So....... what do the new hub bears go around suspensionwise. Coil over IFS??

6.9 duramax is what I have heard....hopefully integrated with some of the new 4.5 stuff plus some better stuff yet.... time will tell.

Man I wanted to get one, but graphite? I am sure the brains have done their testing. But I just can understand how it can handle the detanation over and over?

They have to be sleeved? And why not just make it cast?

Spud

Graphite is carbon. The blocks are not made out of carbon. They
are made of iron with carbon in them. I cannot teach a phd course
in metallurgy in a message, but your can do some reading.

CGI is not steel, but neither is it cast grey iron or white iron or nodular
cast. All are alloys of carbon and iron. CGI is cast iron, but very
strong and hard-to-machine cast iron. Think of it that way.

Until recently the price/benefit ratio for CGI has not "been there". It
is just too expensive to machine for mass-produced engines. GM is
stepping up this time.

There are other "wonder" metals that have been around for a long
time, but are not used for engines for cost reasons. Harley Davidson,
of all companies, has a cast iron blend of iron, carbon, and silver. It
is easy to machine, has 90% of the strength of typical cast iron, but
90% of the thermal conductivity of silver. Very desirable metal, that
one. But it costs A LOT. HD has, in the past, made special "cheater"
iron cylinder jugs with this alloy. No overheating, ever. Only for
racing, and only when you will not get caught.

Graphite is carbon. The blocks are not made out of carbon. They
are made of iron with carbon in them. I cannot teach a phd course
in metallurgy in a message, but your can do some reading.

CGI is not steel, but neither is it cast grey iron or white iron or nodular
cast. All are alloys of carbon and iron. CGI is cast iron, but very
strong and hard-to-machine cast iron. Think of it that way.

Until recently the price/benefit ratio for CGI has not "been there". It
is just too expensive to machine for mass-produced engines. GM is
stepping up this time.

There are other "wonder" metals that have been around for a long
time, but are not used for engines for cost reasons. Harley Davidson,
of all companies, has a cast iron blend of iron, carbon, and silver. It
is easy to machine, has 90% of the strength of typical cast iron, but
90% of the thermal conductivity of silver. Very desirable metal, that
one. But it costs A LOT. HD has, in the past, made special "cheater"
iron cylinder jugs with this alloy. No overheating, ever. Only for
racing, and only when you will not get caught.

Thanks for the explanation.

Pardon my ignorance, but are the CGI blocks the ones that look like styrofoam in raw form (little balls compacted together)?

The aluminum block and heads on my caviler look this way.

No, that's "lost foam casting". I saw it done once when I toured the Saturn plant many years ago. A styrofoam replica of the part is made, set in large vat like tub, sand (I believe) poured in to fill the voids around the form, then molten aluminum poured in. The molten aluminum vaporized the foam and took its place, which is why your heads and block look have a styrofoam like pattern to them.

I read somewere that the " lost foam casting" method was created by John Deere.

So....... what do the new hub bears go around suspensionwise. Coil over IFS??

6.9 duramax is what I have heard....hopefully integrated with some of the new 4.5 stuff plus some better stuff yet.... time will tell.


i would also like to know about the frontend to,maybe a sold axel :naughty:

i would also like to know about the frontend to,maybe a sold axel :naughty:

I wasn't going to say anything. LOL:cool:

With the big retooling, what will happen to the Big Block? Will it still be built at Tonawanda? Here's something to think about: The new 4.5L Duramax has 72 degree banks, not 90 like most V-8's. Funny thing about that is 72 degrees works with V-6, V-8, and V-10 without balance problems.

a v-10 D-Max would be sweet

sorry ,but big blocks are dead,,



r.i.p. rat motors

sorry ,but big blocks are dead,,



r.i.p. rat motors

It was only a matter of time. Probably not enough sales to justify it. No More handshaker, no more big block.

CG blocks have been around for a while now like Frank_Ep said mostly in higher end cars (until they went to aluminium blocks) and in racing. They is however they do not dissipate heat as fast as aluminium blocks they simply have a higher transfer rate across the entire block so you don't have as many problems with hot spots in certain parts of the motor. This is due to the grain structure of the graphite compared to the grain structure of cast iron. As my boss explained it to me (he is an engineer) the graphite tends to make for a more even pore during casting which will usually make the core have a more uniform finish. We have been using these blocks in NNC racing for about 7 years now and if I remember right they are less than 7% graphite so don't let the graphite content scare you they are still mostly recycled cast iron from things like old rotors with very little virgin material in them. As for the machining differences there are very few with standard CGI blocks. We tested a few trial blocks that were over 10% graphite and they were a little harder to machine but not that much difference, you just have to go slower. This also gives them the only other benefit (that I know of) which is suposed to be increased wear resistance. If they really wanted to make a state of the art block with great wear characteristics they would used nikasil spray in liners.

sorry ,but big blocks are dead,,



r.i.p. rat motors

They are still in the Topkick/Kodiak 4500-8500, and marine applications, not to metion all the crate engines.

we all just need to get over the sfa in a chevy light truck. wont ever happen again.

lets just bring back reg cabs as the only ones and carburaters too,and no good diesels either

Report I read said this new engine is not a Duramax but a true GM. Also read that only 150 employees were going to be working on it. The remaining still working on the 8.1 gassers. That was a total of 1500 employees at Tonawanda per UAW agreement. The other information was that the exhaust headers are part of the block so the enitre engine will fit into the gas prowered V-8 vehicles, bolting up to the same motor mounts. The transmissions will be beefed up to handle to additional torque. I will bet they will add more workers to the 4.5 as demand increases. GM will have 18 Diesel Engines world wide with the 4.5 addition. The smallest being the Italian designed Polish built 1.3 Multi Jet common rail, and ending with the 6.6 Duramax. :rolleyes:

They are still in the Topkick/Kodiak 4500-8500, and marine applications, not to metion all the crate engines.

Topkick/Kodiak 4500-8500 was/is sold to Navistar so don't know what will happen w/ them.

the only good crate engine is the ramjet 572 :D

any idea yet on when we can order one ? 2009 or 2010?

The Tonawanda Plant makes 1,000,000 engines a year. The set up for production is still in progress, the first 4.5L may not be started up for test until late summer. Crate engines will probably be available by early 2009. The required conversion parts and modification spec's may be done by an aftermarket supplier. Anyone looking for a new business probably can start looking for a shop that will be capable of turnkey conversion. It would be nice to get a complete redo for a flat fee, like new engine, interior, paint, tires and wheels, for say $6000 to $10,000 US. Like they say don't crush um restore um.

From what I was reading about the 4.5 the exhaust and intake ports on the heads will be reversed. In other words the exhaust ports will be in the V of the block and the intake on the outside of the heads. Weird but I guess it makes it easier to package the turbo and makes for better flowing heads. It should be interesting to see and is certainly a novel idea.

From the display motor that GM had in there display at SEMA 2007 the exhaust and intake are all cast into the head. There are no manifolds for the intake or exhaust from what I saw. Both the intake and exhaust are in the valley of the motor, but I'm not sure where it goes once inside the head casting. The turbocharger bolted right up to the heads in the rear of the valley and the intercooler pipe returned into the heads about 1/4 of the way from the front in the valley. The valvecovers were plastic. The GM rep. stated the motor would bolt in the same area of any current LS based engine package but would not say for sure what homes it would be in other than light truck for sure.

a 4.5 will cost $12k-15k just for it and conversion ,is prob $5,000