: A different kind of Programmer question
cowdoc 11-05-2007, 08:02 PM I need to start out by saying that I am probably just thinking crazy, but then again, I have never been accused of being a genious either. Here goes anyway!
OK, I have been tryiing to get my hands on some LBZ dyno graphs from Hypertech Max Energy, Edge Evolution, and Diablosport Predator. Maybe I just don't know where to look, but I can't find any. I have seen dyno graphs for LLY's from Edge Juice and Hypertech (ZF6 but not Allison) and Predator. I have seen charts for an LMM with the Max Energy. Anyway, from what I can tell, the only one of these tuners that makes any extra power below about 1750 rpm's is the Predator for the LLY. Everything else starts making extra power at 2000-2250 rpm's. I never turn that many rpm's even when towing and surely not just driving around. It seem to me that these programmers do us little or no good at normal driving rpm's. Am I totally crazy or making at least a little sense?
I am looking for THE BEST tuner for mpg gains and power in the rpm range that I need. I originally had the Predator on my LBZ, but sold it and got the EVO. Both are great units, but did I make the wrong switch?
What is the skinny on the new, soon to be released, Dialosport Trinity?
2006sierra 11-05-2007, 08:39 PM I can not verify your hypothesis but I think you may be right about the power bands. But it is not just the horsepower. On the PPE it seems to be more or less normal at low rpms but increases in power as the rpms go up. This is good with me since I get great milage when not putting my foot in it but really hauls when I want to. Just some observations.
straightpiperoar 11-05-2007, 09:18 PM x2 2006sierra
cowdoc 11-06-2007, 06:05 PM Does the Predator increase power at low rpm's on the LBZ like it does on the LLY?
richanitamoore 11-06-2007, 11:52 PM "Customer Q&A (with Peter Treydte, Banks' Director of Technical Communication)
QUESTION #1:
I have installed a Banks Monster Exhaust and am considering a "Six-Gun and Speed-Loader." My primary application is towing a 15,000 lb. trailer (GCWR 23,000) with an '06 F-350 SRW 6.0L Auto 3.73 CC SB 4X4. I tow at 60 to 65 mph (3.73/18 in tires) which translates to 1700 and 1750 rpm. All of your charts start at 2000 rpm which is 74 mph in my truck, which it never sees towing. Consequently, my interest is in torque and power out put at 1700 to 1750 rpm.
1. What is the torque and Hp increase that I will see from the Monster exhaust and at what RPM, especially 1750 rpm?
2. What is the torque and Hp with the six gun and speed loader at 1750 rpm.
3. A product that I would like to see you offer for my truck is a way to manually select 4th gear. My choices are 1,2,3,or 5th.
The higher rpm max out put numbers don't do much good for the vast majority of trailer tower's like me who don't tow at 75 or 80 mph.
Read on for the answers...
ANSWER #1:
First I must address your overriding concern about test data at engine RPM's lower than 2000. It is important for you to know a little bit about how our testing is done. All the power data that you see in our brochure is the result of full load testing. That means that the vehicle is brought to full throttle application in a fixed gear (in this case 4th gear which is direct) and a load (resistance) is applied to the rear wheels in order to maintain a specific engine RPM. These conditions give us the most accurate measurement of the engines power output. Our tests normally start at the top of the RPM range, in this case 3600 RPM. The vehicle is held under this set of conditions while data is taken; this will commonly last about 30 seconds. Then more load is applied to draw the engine RPM down to the next test point, usually done in increments of 200 RPM. This is repeated until the RPM reaches a point at which the vehicle electronics determines that load is too great and a downshift to the next lower gear is commanded, in this case 3rd gear. This scenario can only be compared to climbing a hill at full throttle while the hill gradually gets steeper and steeper.
The scenario that you describe of cruising at 60 or 65 MPH at 1700 to 1750 leads me to believe that you are indicating a situation that does not require a dramatic amount of power output. If you continued to maintain that speed while climbing a hill, eventually your throttle application would increase and your transmission management would downshift the transmission such that you were no longer operating at 1700 to 1750 RPM. This brings up an important point of vehicle dynamics and power application. Any given set of road conditions will require a certain amount of horsepower to accomplish a task. For instance, your GCWR is 23,000, and your vehicle with trailer has a certain aerodynamic profile. If we assume that you are traveling on a perfectly level road on a day with no wind at 60 MPH, there will be a certain amount of power required to accomplish that task. For the sake of argument, lets say that is 100 HP. Your engine needs to produce 100 HP at 1700 RPM to keep that vehicle moving at 60 MPH. We can assume that it is capable of doing so in its stock condition. The addition of a Monster Exhaust will not change that power requirement. the engine will still produce 100 HP to keep the vehicle moving at 60 MPH. HOWEVER, by removing restrictions to airflow, it will be able to do so more efficiently, which translates into better fuel economy. Every one of our airflow products will have this effect. Once one of these conditions changes (faster speed, acceleration, steeper road, heavier load, headwind) then the power requirement also changes.
The added power potential of the Monster Exhaust, Techni-Cooler and the Six-Gun Tuner will be used when your power demand is increased. This occurs when you want to accelerate faster (ideal for taking a heavy load up to merging speed), pass slower traffic more safely or climb a hill faster or in a higher gear than previously possible.
You may occasionally see power curves from other manufacturers that show data at lower RPM levels, but those tests are performed on an acceleration dynamometer that never applies full load to the vehicle. Tests are performed by running the engine rapidly through its RPM range. This data is not a proper representation of the conditions that your vehicle is subjected to on the road, especially one that weighs 23,000 pounds.
I hope that this gives you a better understanding of why it is difficult to answer your questions about what the power increase is at a lower engine RPM. This data could be gathered from a vehicle with a manual transmission, but then it would not be applicable to your vehicle with an automatic, and since it is impossible to operate the vehicle at that RPM under full load anyway, it is meaningless information"
http://www.banksblog.com/archives/regularly_heard_from/peter_treydte/index.html
This is off Banks Blog
Unit453 11-06-2007, 11:58 PM Sounds like you are looking for a custom tow tune....EFI may be something you are interested in.
TBarks 11-07-2007, 10:57 PM Hey Doc, you're making absolute sense. I'm looking for the exact same thing. I could be wrong but I have to believe that at least as many of these trucks are used for normal towing as they are racing and pulling. If someone could come up with what we want they'd clean up. Let me know if you find it.
cowdoc 11-08-2007, 02:43 PM TBarks,
I saw a dyno chart on the Predator for the LLY once (on Kennedy's website I think) that showed some gains down around 1500 rpm's. I had Predator v2.02 on my lly and I must say that it did have some grunt down low and improved fuel economy. I just always heard that the egt's were awfully hot with the Predator. I never knew because I didn't have gauges. I just wish someone could tell me if the LBZ Predator does the same thing. I have a feeling that it does. I got one for my LBZ and ran it for a while and it did have a lot of low rpm pull. I got EVO fever and sold the Predator to get the EVO. I am pretty happy with the EVO, but if the Pred is better for my purposes (towing) I would get one. I could kep the EVO for a while just to see oe my egt's were running with the Predator. According to one of Unit 453's tests, the Pred egt's (empty) were lower than the Hyperpac.
Someone who has the answers please chime in!
TBarks 11-08-2007, 07:26 PM Just an additional note, another requirement of mine is whatever IT is has to pay for itself in fuel savings over about 15,000 miles. I'm not unhappy with the power now. It'll go when I want it to. I don't have much problem running 65-70 on the interstate. It kicks down to 5th gear quite a bit and occassionally to 4th on bigger inclines but that doesn't really bother me. My main desire is better fuel economy. Spending $1000 to get 1 MPG better wouldn't make sense.
I know I'm being picky. And I know I might not find anything that does what I want. Until something else comes along that I can try and return if it fails I'll just stick with what GM gave me.
cowdoc 11-08-2007, 08:18 PM TBarks, what mpg are you getting stock?
TBarks 11-08-2007, 08:51 PM Around 18.5 empty at 65-70 mph. Around 10 towing 20,000 lbs at 65 mph. Not terrible for a crew dually 4x4. But I hear better than 20 from some empty and 14 towing. If I could get 20 empty and 12 towing, I'd be tickled.
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