Did a little digging in light of recent discussion in another thread. Rather than clutter that one up, I'll start a new one.

In discussing the issue of whether the GM "remanufactured" injectors for the Duramax were new or reman I learned is that Bosch part numbers tell the tale. Simply put, a number beginning with 0 is a new unit. A number beginning in 9 is a reman. What I provide is the same darn injector you'd get under warranty and the only one you can buy from either GM or Bosch at this time. They are the updated, latest/greatest and the numbers begin with a 0. GM prescribes changing the entire set now to ensure that the new units are installed as a set to potentially alleviate risk of failure with the old units. I am also told that they now prescribe changing the fuel filter as well.


My take is that GM/Bosch have labeled them remans to ensure that they get the cores back. Bosch is likely collecting the cores for a number of reasons. First, the early, and most problematic ones are being scrapped. The others are being tested for mode of failure, and set aside as Bosch begins to develop their reman process. This does a couple of things: 1) Removes the old units completely from the service lessening the likelihood that the early ones are recirculated. 2) Allows Bosch to do failure analysis. 3) Supplies Bosch's pending reman project. 4) Keeps the cores off of the open market and out of the hands of the aftermarket.


With the exception of a few special cases, all injectors sold by Kennedy Diesel are assembled in a clean room, and operated on test equipment to verify not only delivery, but opening psi, spray pattern, and that there are no leaks.

is their a simple test that one can do with a tech ll or something to see the shape or effeicentcy of the injector in a running mode, i did hear of a ballence test, but not sure what that is, thanks

Injector balance rates can be used for an "arms length" assessment, but variables can creep in so they aren't exact.


Watch for trends and try to be sure to eliminate temperature and engine load variables by having fully up to temp (transmission included) and in Park when testing. You are looking for some oddity or inconsistency. Eric could comment more on what GM feels is excessive, but around 3mm3 is where the concern begins. I'm sure GM will not touch one for 3mm, but that's the one to watch. Some will balance VERY well, yet others will be all over the place. One cylinder may be high one time, and OK the next. The numbers will also pare down as time passes from the time the balance turns on and idle stabilizes. The balance rate turns off when the pedal moves off of 0%.

Basically, if you had a discernible miss or smoke at idle etc, you can often see a problematic injector while the issue is occurring. In my case, I had a couple that were at 2.7-ish from new. Remained relatively consistent over 50k till we (Eric) swapped them for the mod units. The mod units have exceptional balance rates, and have remained this way for over 20k so far.

"What I provide is the same darn injector you'd get under warranty and the only one you can buy from either GM or Bosch at this time."

This is also the same darn injector any other supplier uses and has been for the past few years.

John, what do the boxes say on them when you buy them............ remanufactured right!
So you take a part labeled as remanufacture and tell people it new. IMHO that's just wrong. GM/Bosch would put new on the box if they were! Also the shop your send them to to be built and tested cannot adjust the flow rate of the injector, they cannot adjust the opening pressure, and cannot adjust the spray pattern. So what you are provideing is a quality rebuilt injector just as many others are doing, nothing wrong with that!

Isn't that axe sharp yet? For crying out loud man move on! If the GM units were actually reman, the Bosch number would be different. Selling new units and marking as reman is nothing new for Bosch to do...




"What I provide is the same darn injector you'd get under warranty and the only one you can buy from either GM or Bosch at this time."

This is also the same darn injector any other supplier uses and has been for the past few years.

John, what do the boxes say on them when you buy them............ remanufactured right!
So you take a part labeled as remanufacture and tell people it new. IMHO that's just wrong. GM/Bosch would put new on the box if they were! Also the shop your send them to to be built and tested cannot adjust the flow rate of the injector, they cannot adjust the opening pressure, and cannot adjust the spray pattern. So what you are provideing is a quality rebuilt injector just as many others are doing, nothing wrong with that!

Where's that horse again Mackin! ):h

Maybe they (bosch) are just being like a used car salesman when they tell you "new to you".):h

Call Bosch like I did and they will tell you the same thing, call a Bosch distributor you will get the same thing, call GM you get the same thing they only supply rebuilt units.

Why all the excuses, you got caught! Step up, be a man and admit it. Fix your advertising and move on. Instead you try to cover it up!

[QUOTE=Diesel Tech]Call Bosch like I did and they will tell you the same thing, call a Bosch distributor you will get the same thing, call GM you get the same thing they only supply rebuilt units.

You mean if I get my LLY injectors replaced, they are reman? What about the first LLY injectors that were replaced, were they reman? where did they get the parts to reman?

Oh, dang, my horse just died.

Jim

You right jholly, it sure seems like this subject winds up going back to the same concept...............
Dealing with aftermarket parts for so many years, I do know this...Companies will sell new parts although the box is marked remanufactured...The reason? They want the old units (cores) back so they can reman them...(commonly known as seeding the market) This is done with starters, alternators, water pumps, etc etc etc....
Is that to say that bosch is doing the same with injectors?? My thought is more than likely, but I can't prove it one way or another..My new bosch book doesn't have a part number for a duramax...
Oh well, back to...........

What is of interest, is that I tried to buy a new GM starter motor for a 2002 GM. They do not list a PN for a new unit, only reman (or so I was told by 3 GM dealers). But at $300, it is priced normal to GM new starters.

Perhaps GM doesn't list newer PN's that are rebuildable as being new, whether they are or are not. When I opened the box, it looked brand new.

Either way, it sure would be nice to get some cores for LLY's. I'd really like to add injectors, but I don't want my truck down for several weeks.

Steve, dont you have anything better to do than to come on here and call another supporting vendor a liar? Do you do business where he gets his injectors done? How do you know what they do? Seems like a poor business practice on your part.

Steve, dont you have anything better to do than to come on here and call another supporting vendor a liar? Do you do business where he gets his injectors done? How do you know what they do? Seems like a poor business practice on your part.
I do not sell injectors but I do know what can and cannot be done with the LB7 and LLY injectors. You can go buy the books same as I did to find out how it works or attend a bosch seminar on the interworking of the injection system. Then go buy some injectors and disassemble them.

So what your saying is it's OK to falsely advertise something your not doing and that's good business practice! -:t

Partsguy662

While I agree 100% with you about seeding the market, the LB7 injectors were seeded years ago. For the past few years GM has been boxing injectors as remanufactured. They quit making the motor over a year ago! Would you sell a part that was labeled as remanufacture to someone and call it new? Would you tell people your product is better becuase you use new injectors in your product when you really use remanufactured?

The truth is Kennedy is buying rebuilt Bosch injectors from GM or Bosch just as everyone else does!

Partsguy662

While I agree 100% with you about seeding the market, the LB7 injectors were seeded years ago. For the past few years GM has been boxing injectors as remanufactured. They quit making the motor over a year ago! Would you sell a part that was labeled as remanufacture to someone and call it new? Would you tell people your product is better becuase you use new injectors in your product when you really use remanufactured?

The truth is Kennedy is buying rebuilt Bosch injectors from GM or Bosch just as everyone else does! Actually Diesel tech, I have sold parts to customers and explained to them that the part is in fact new although it is in a remanufactured box...On some of the newer vehicles out there, it is absolutely obvious that a part is new and not remanufactured....To me, it really doesn't matter all that much...The warranty is the same regardless if the damn thing is brand new or remanufactured anyway, especially since the part in question is in a box marked reman...On the parts that I know are new although they are in a reman box, I might point it out to the customer, but it seems that it really doesn't matter to them anyway...
I sell bosch electrical products every day....I have little or no problem with their products new or remanned....
I've talked back and forth with kennedy quite a few times...He has been honest and approachable each time we spoke..Definetely doesn't come across as a complete snake of a salesman or as a person in general..He happens to do for a living something that most of us only get to do for a hobby (the lucky bastard)..It sure seems as though you have a personal issue with John, and the reman vs new injectors were just a way to start an arguement...

Steve, so you are saying that when a nozzle tip is honed out the spray pattern is going to be exactly like stock? Wouldn't it have to be stock to be the same? Well, you better tell everyone GM is a liar and that they shouldn't buy from them either since GM says the injectors are new.

Partsguy662

"I sell bosch electrical products every day....I have little or no problem with their products new or remanned...."

Bosch has always made good product IMO and doing what you've said is fine, but, if you were to tell someone your product is better because you are useing new parts and the others are not when indeed you all starting with the same rebuilt part just would not sit well with me.

Hey, even the "new" engines that are supplied for warranty are labeled "remanufactured" even though it is a new engine. Couldnt believe my eyes when I saw that in our service department. A brand new truck, with just a little over 600 miles, had a catostrophic failure on the engine, and the engine supplied by GM was labeled "remanufactured"

I've been trying to stay out of this,but I can't any longer. I first must say I have the upmost respect for people until they disrespect me,which no one on here has.Been quite helpful for the most part actually. That being said I feel this issue can be summed up with the answer to one question,do they work as intended for the application for a reasonable period of time? So who cares what the box says. I wouldn't be offended if someone sold me new injectors in a reman box,just as long as they weren't trying to boost profit from it,which I don't think Kennedy is trying to do. His prices seem to fall in line with everybody elses.I hope to see an end to the flogging of this poor old horse soon.

From afar, it appears one vendor is busting another's balls over a technicality (not intentional misrepresentation) for whatever reason (personal vendetta, gain market share, etc.). Whatever the reason, it is bad form. Sure, if a vendor is taking used parts and advertising them and selling them as new then we want to know. JK marketing injectors that he has been made to believe are in fact new (regardless of the packaging) hardly justifies a public flogging on a forum he helps make possible. Steve, I've heard great things about your products and have been patiently waiting for the release of one of your programmers for the LLY. However, your calling out Kennedy on this forum and your continued pursuit of discrediting him doesn't help with my patience in waiting for your product. There's no way any vendor would last long on this site if they sold snake oil. There are too many smart people here.

I have a really dumb question. And I'm not being sarcastic. What, if any, part on the "remanufactured" injectors is "used"? If I read the definitions correctly, used and reman are not the same.

That's right! It is GM's way of ensuring that the core engine is returned. They should really look at calling them "new core required" or something like that.





According to Kenn Langosch at Bosch Aftermarket:



0 445 120 008 is a NEW injector



0 986 435 055 is a REMAN injector The original part number will remain etched, but will be x'd out. The reman number will be on the opposite side.







Suffice to say that every injector that I have sold matched the core given. Every reman that I have purchased from GM has been a new unit. My main point of my "preffered method" statement on my site is that I do not want to take Duramax owner#1's used cores and give them to Duramax owner#2. I'd rather start with a known commodity in a new injector OR do the customer's own units so any problems above the nozzle are on him.







Now, where are the remans going? They are all going to GM through the warranty pool. Looks like we'll be seeing some come through the supply chain shortly. There have been a FEW remanufactured units produced so far.







Hey, even the "new" engines that are supplied for warranty are labeled "remanufactured" even though it is a new engine. Couldnt believe my eyes when I saw that in our service department. A brand new truck, with just a little over 600 miles, had a catostrophic failure on the engine, and the engine supplied by GM was labeled "remanufactured"

GM's main goal is to keep them off the market. Once the cores get out in circulation rebuilders are going to start selling them. Gm wants to keep all the sales to themselves.
Once went to a Bosch factory in Illinois. In the back I saw a huge pile of used voltage regulators. They had a guy back there smashing each one with a sledge hammer. I asked him why he was whacking them. He said they use to just get rid of them as scrap, but people where getting them and rebuilding them. By crunching each one they made sure they where unservicable.

What I've tried to point out to everyone in the first thread as well as in this thread is that all the injector suppliers are starting from the same point, that no one supplier is sending out new injectors. According to Bosch no new LB7 injectors have been produced for a long time (over a year),Hence re-manufactured on all boxes. For only one supplier to say his are new when indeed he is removing them for a box clearly marked re-manufactured, a catalog that they are purchased from stating they are re-manufactured is beyond me.

"I'd rather start with a known commodity in a new injector OR do the customer's own units so any problems above the nozzle are on him."

So what the customer is truly buying is a nozzle that has been replaced to his original injectors or a set of re-manufactured units with a nozzle replaced. Anything other than the nozzle is not covered.

Towin43

"one vendor is busting another's balls over a technicality (not intentional misrepresentation)"

I am sorry you feel the way you do, but, that being said how is it unintentional misrepresentation when you get into a thread on a competitors product and say mines better because we use new injectors. Then start a new thread to dispute the facts that have been clearly brought up and confirmed. Had Kennedy dropped it in the last thread it would have been over with, but instead has started this thread to say he thinks they are new units.
There is no argument with me that he is replacing the nozzle on the end of the injector just as all the other suppliers are doing, no better no worse. IMO the salesman is holding tight to we use new instead of just stating they are re-manufactured GM/Bosch units or your original units to modify with nozzles.

Fingers,
I can't answer your question but feel compelled to point out that "there are no stupid questions, just painfully obvious answers."

Sound familiar?

If Steve would spend less time on here bashing Kennedy he might get the powerloaderIII done quicker. :eek:

Not that I agree with either one, but a while back a Banks guy got trampled on this website when people were upset that the banks did not put the HP out that they advertise.

I have never met/talked to either one, but from what I hear, both are very reputible men. It sounds like Steve is trying to help everyone from potential dishonest advertising. Kennedy is relying on info given to him from Bosch, and so is Steve. Maybe Bosch is misleading info to one or perhaps both, who knows.

The simple fact is that no one needs to keep bashing each other until they get the same correct info. It looks bad for both business men to partake in this argument. Steve will piss off some people and Kennedy will piss off the rest. There will be no winners, only losers due to a drop in business on both ends.JMHO

[
Towin43

"one vendor is busting another's balls over a technicality (not intentional misrepresentation)"

I am sorry you feel the way you do, but, that being said how is it unintentional misrepresentation when you get into a thread on a competitors product and say mines better because we use new injectors. Then start a new thread to dispute the facts that have been clearly brought up and confirmed. Had Kennedy dropped it in the last thread it would have been over with, but instead has started this thread to say he thinks they are new units.
There is no argument with me that he is replacing the nozzle on the end of the injector just as all the other suppliers are doing, no better no worse. IMO the salesman is holding tight to we use new instead of just stating they are re-manufactured GM/Bosch units or your original units to modify with nozzles.[/QUOTE]

Kennedy didn't post on the initial thread until you posted that the product Kennedy sells is junk. Would John have even posted to the original thread if he had not been called out? That's my only point. If you have a problem with Kennedy's products and advertising then take it up with John off-line or discuss it with the forum moderators/owner that you believe a competitor is falsely advertising. The only reason I've posted any comments about this is that I don't want it to affect your business. I can't be the only one on the forum that is turned off by one vendor publicly calling another out. I've injected enough preaching on the subject and promise to not say another word. (the crowd cheers!! ):h ).

Fingers,
I can't answer your question but feel compelled to point out that "there are no stupid questions, just painfully obvious answers."

Sound familiar? ):hSo nice to be quoted by my friends.):h

Inquirering mind(s) want to know....What parts are being reused? Steve?

I haven't wanted to jump in but I'm going to at this point as both threads seem to have lead to the same thing.

First, I've learned in business that talking badly about or discrediting a competitor of yours in any way in front of a customer makes YOU look worse than the competitor in the customers eyes, I promise you that. I'm sure both are aware of this so I don't understand the constant fighting that goes on for the public to see, but it should stop. It's fine to disagree, but not to a point of calling another's product junk. Your disagreements have actually brought forth some good information on numerous occassions, but the level of disagreement should be kept professional IMHO. Anything unprofessional, which both threads have become, look bad for both of you and I have a feeling it would save you both a great deal of business if you would keep it private.

Out of my own curiosity, I called up five gm dealers surrounding my area that I do business with on a regular basis. All of them know me personally and all know what I do and have done to my truck. I have an excellent working relationship with the service managers of all five dealers. I told the service manager of each dealership that my tech 2 was indicating bad balance rates on two injectors and gave them some horrible numbers. Asked them if they thought the injectors need replaced. All five of them said something very similiar to "Yep, we better get you an appointment for NEW injectors" (note that I am very sure all five said NEW somewhere). The bottomline here is that even though the injectors are remanufactured, they are considered "new" as in "Changed for the better; rejuvenated" which is part of the meaning of the word (according to the dictionary).

Kind of a reach but here's an example of the way I see it. If you buy recycled paper, it's "new" when it's blank, right? But that paper has been used before, right? It's just gone through a process to make it "new". Exactly the same with the injectors.

I would agree that a change to John's web site could be made indicating that the "new" injectors are remanufactured Bosch injectors which is all that can be purchased. But, I don't think John is falsley advertising and he certainly isn't claiming that they are new indicating they have never in any way shape or form seen a home in an engine.

I'm not in any way taking sides. I've just read every post and it appears Steve called John out on this one. At no point did John post until after his injector nozzles were called "junk".

Finally, I've got a set of injector nozzles from John. I purchased "new" injectors from Eric and he sent them to John and John sent them to the "magic" place for the necessary work. John's nozzles are every bit as good as anything else out there. I don't think you can get better. You wouldn't be making a bad decision. I have no experience with DDs injectors so I can't comment. If they do the work in-house, all the more power to them. That certainly wouldn't be a deciding factor in my decision to purchase the nozzles though. If I were buying now, it'd definitely be one of the two. I'd definitely be asking DD the same questions I asked John and if their answers were the same, it'd be a tough decision. My injectors now have 20,000 on them and still balance better than the originals ever did.

In the nuclear world, we don't use the word new very often. It's usually refurbished to design specifications. New means nothing due to the very large tolerances used in manufacturing. Good part today, crappy part tomorrow.

The moral for vendors is, "If you build a good quality part, We will come."

Our EMD Emergency Diesel Generator's Injectors get rebuilt to our specifications, not GM's. We have third party companies do most of our refurb work due to large manufacturers not willing to do the precision work for an individual company. We expect and demand 100% QA on the parts we request. Nothing less period. Then they are tested and checked by us again. If we don't like the injector, it goes back to the vendor to be done again, no questions asked, no extra money given. When we ask for 20 good injectors, we better get 20 good injectors.


Once in a great while we will see "Virgin" injector barrels. Meaning never been used before. Big Deal! To us, the customer, we really don't care what the part is marketed as, as long as it's built well and to our specifications.

I've had a brand "new" EMD Turbo puke and I really didn't care that the vendor said it was "New". That Turbo cost over $150,000.00 and it came unglued due to poor workmanship, (Bearing went). The Turbo that replaced it was refurbished and is in service today. It was new to me and it works as designed and specified.

That's what counts to the customer.

Just another customer opinion.

song remains the same.