It seems the Dodge HPCR engines are having some of the same injector problems as we are: http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?threadid=54900.

I am not surprised to see failure in mass produced units that operate at hydraulic pressures of 28000 psi. I just wish it wasn' happening to our trucks. I have already had one injector replaced, and now I'm shaking and putting on a smoke show again at idle.

Mike

I just noticed a ton of white smoke while at a light today... great..

I saw a big white puf also today when I pulled into the driveway, I kind of thought the weather was to blame....now Im starting to worry...3000miles is all thats on mine.

4000 miles here.. already have the surge and pinging, now have white smoke.

braino, looks like were in the same boat :mad:

I had lots of black smoke, then white smoke & knocking (usually with the cruise control engaged) with no warning lights. I was worried about injectors and such since the LB7 engine had some problems with them.

So I took the truck to the dealer. They blamed it on the oil from the K&N filter, showed me the TSB that says not to fix the truck if it has an oil saturated filter. They say the oil gets on the MAF sensor and then gets baked on (the MAF sensor gets really hot) which effects the fuel-to-air mixture.

I put the original air filter back in and it ran fine with little to no smoking. I haven't had problems in the last 7000 or so miles. In fact, I can barely get it to smoke at all - even at WOT.

The dealer also said to clean the MAF sensor with B&G Air Intake Cleaner. Let it dry (evaporate) before installing the air filter again.

Bottom line: you may want to take out your K&N air filter and clean the MAF sensor before you take it to the dealer for service.

Hope that helps.

JT

Here's another link for a Cummins (Dodge) forum which has owners with injector problems:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117223

The fifth reply in this thread is talking about white smoke and rough idle issues, seem to echo what some Duramax owners are experiencing. I've read that Bosch is supplying very similar injectors for these engines and I'm wondering if it would be productive for Duramax and Cummins owners with similar injector related issues to contact each other see just how similar the issues/failures are. It doesn't seem like GM or DC are holding Bosch accountable for faulty injectors. Granted our fuel here may not be as good as it is in Europe but you'd think a manufacturer would design their product for the market it is to be used in, maybe enough consumers banding together would get the ball rolling if GM and DC cannot! Just a thought.

If I'm not mistaken both brands use BOSCH as the supplier/manufacturer of the HPCR systems. Not suprising that the Cummins ISBE is having the same problem, most likely due to the high pressures and duty cycle of the system. Hopefully BOSCH will continue to offer extended warranty coverage until they get a reliable system. Soon I hope, for the sake of the reputation of the current Cummins and Duramax diesel engines. The new Ford 6.0 has already had a negative impact on diesel power.
Hopefully this HPCR injector problem doesn't end up killing the popularity of diesel power in the coming years. When these trucks get a few years older and out of warranty, there will be some fairly large repair bills if things continue on as they are now. So far GM and BOSCH have stepped up to the plate by extending the warranty coverage but that is just a bandaid approach to the problem for now.

It doesn't seem like GM or DC are holding Bosch accountable for faulty injectors. Granted our fuel here may not be as good as it is in Europe but you'd think a manufacturer would design their product for the market it is to be used in, maybe enough consumers banding together would get the ball rolling if GM and DC cannot! Just a thought.
Trust me Bosch is being held accountable.............at least in the pocket book.:(

Whose fault is this?? Bosch only makes the damn things. Engineers with Isuzu are the ones that create the specs. Is this an enginnering oversight/flaw (Isuzu/GM/Cummins) or is it a manufacturing quality control issue (Bosch)?? The fact that Dodge owners are having similar problems does not help Bosch's position. Still yet there could be a fundamental problem with high preassure common fuel rail systems in general.

Too many questions......................................... ..

You guys are beggin....

This forum is strewn with continuous injector horror stories. You find two topics and a few injector problems and you call it equal?

Way too soon for that. Cummins CR came out two years later than the Dmax. Dmax started shipping as an 01 model. Cummins CR as an 03.

There are a lot of differences in the design of the injector body and the method of fuel input so I wouldn't compare apples to apples just yet unless you know the real cause and that both have the same design problem area.

You guys are beggin....

This forum is strewn with continuous injector horror stories. You find two topics and a few injector problems and you call it equal?

Way too soon for that. Cummins CR came out two years later than the Dmax. Dmax started shipping as an 01 model. Cummins CR as an 03.

There are a lot of differences in the design of the injector body and the method of fuel input so I wouldn't compare apples to apples just yet unless you know the real cause and that both have the same design problem area.


hahahhhhahaha That's one for the record! Spoken like a true Jumper!Easily could substitute Duramax and or Ford!
Sooooooooooooooooo predictable.

Foolish Hoot, poor old foolish Hoot! Weebles wobble !


Mac ):h ):h ):h

hahahhhhahaha That's one for the record! Spoken like a true Jumper!Easily could substitute Duramax and or Ford!
Sooooooooooooooooo predictable.

Foolish Hoot, poor old foolish Hoot!


Mac ):h ):h ):h

What I can't stand up for my truck? Did I say something wrong...??

Facts are the facts.... the injectors are not the same. Dmax injectors have been proven to be absolute JUNK.

The ones in the Cummins have not made the grade yet. Bad grade that is.

Did ya make 40,000 miles MAC before getting yours replaced??

BWAHHHHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAA


;)

Did ya make 40,000 miles MAC before getting yours replaced??


Yes and whats your point? Yours made it to and you ran like a girl with your skirt around your neck!

Hoot your a bandwagon jumper who could drive a VW beetle to work,get real!It's the truth and it still stings!

Mod your truck you know the one you said would stay stock? Rubberband buddy car transmission behind a MD diesel?
I'll tit for tat with ya!


Mac :D


Edited for IN a to behind a ,we all no why! AND how many injectors went down first year in the Duramax? Remind us when Cummins went HPCR,will you in dirty fuel USA? Since as you describe different fuel delivery then perhaps more time is involved!

Jinx jinx! ):h

I gotta watch it.... I hate when I stand up and bandwagon my latest ride.... than it nails me.

You do describe my tranny well... feels like a rubber band. But so far she pulls around town pretty decent.

Who's to say.... Cummins might have just as much trouble with injectors in the long run. Sure hope not. One good thing... not hard to get to.

Did you guys fix the friggin contest signup yet?

Yes Hoot Chad fixed it he's quite handy!


Mac =)

My question is. why, with the so called extra 2 yrs. experience, does GM still have injector problems with the LLY? If the dirty fuel is really the problem, then would it not be a good idea to improve filtration on a stock fuel system (same filter system as a 1943 tractor). I think GM doesnot want to put the extra dollars into the truck until the competition has to, or they will make less dollars per truck. This is about the same attitude as telling a customer to remove a headlight to cure a overheating problem. Thanx Geo

Whose fault is this?? Bosch only makes the damn things. Engineers with Isuzu are the ones that create the specs. Is this an enginnering oversight/flaw (Isuzu/GM/Cummins) or is it a manufacturing quality control issue (Bosch)?? The fact that Dodge owners are having similar problems does not help Bosch's position. Still yet there could be a fundamental problem with high preassure common fuel rail systems in general.

Too many questions......................................... ..I agree, whose fault is this? With my original post I was not trying to bash the Cummins I was simply pointing out an issue which appears to have a common culprit between the two brands, the HPCR and injectors manufactured by Bosch.

Too many questions indeed, just a few are: What are the differences in the fuel filtration between the Duramax and the Cummins? What are the differences in the HPCR setup between the two? How about injector design, are they the same exact injector just plumbed differently or is there a hardware difference?

There are dozens of questions that could be asked, I’m simply saying that if both the Duramax and the Cummins are showing similar signs (i.e. white smoke, rough idle) that are pointing to injector issues then maybe, just maybe instead of butting heads with the ram (had to say that) ):h we should attempt to see if there is a common point of failure. Like the Original Diesel said “the fact that Dodge owners are having similar problems does not help Bosch’s position.” We need collaboration not competition… until the problems are solved, then let the games begin.

Just my opinion

Flame suit installed and secure let ‘em rip.

On another forum that I frequent for info on my Cummins 600 (since that's my engine of choice), there have been some people complaining of injector problems, it seems mainly on the 600s, but these people are pretty few and far between. There seemed to be a string of them all at once and I haven't seen anything posted for a while. However, what a lot of people I talked to said was that when they started hearing their engine knocking they threw some diesel fuel treatment in (PowerService Diesel Kleen being the most common one) and that the sound went away. I have used this off and on in my truck (currently has 9260 miles on it) and have had no injector problems thus far. The other thing I noticed was that the people who seemed to have the most problems were the people who only drove their trucks on short trips around town and didn't do any hard work with them. You DMax guys should look into this as well. A lot of you guys seem to have low mileage on your trucks and injector problems. I'd bet that a lot of you with injector problems are only driving around town. You all also seem to have more injector problems than the Cummins guys, at least from what I've seen. Not insulting the Duramax, just commenting. You like your engine I like mine. :)

My guess as to what's happening? The people who drive these trucks primarily around town as their daily drivers are often times not getting their engines up to temperature and definitely are not putting heavy loads for extended periods of time on their engines. So this means that the combustion isn't as good as it should be (since the engine's not up to operating temp) and the combustion also isn't very hot or high pressure. This allows crud to build up in the tip of the injector. Then it gets stuck open (worst case scenario) or begins to stick (knocking sound from improper fueling). When you spend a lot of time on the highway, even empty, you at least have every component up to temperature to cook stuff off the injectors, and when you're towing you REALLY cook stuff off the injectors.

That's my thought, anyway. I agree that the problem is with the injectors from Bosch and something they should fix. That said, I think that the problem is also preventable and it depends on how you use it.

I am a resent "jumper" (Dodge to GM). The Fleetguard fuel filter has a better filtering media (stratopore), than the GM product (I have cut both open because I like to control my life). With GM, you get the same filter from every supplier. My question, again, is with 5yrs. of blameing dirty fuel on the injector problems on the Duramax (2 different series), why do we still have the same filter set up (does GM really care). Why where my injectors bad after only 2400km. Why did my running problems return with (right away) new injectors installed. The 2003 dodge I had knocked one time for about 5min. then never returned (HPR system). My observations are that with GM you get a good one or you get a bad one (quality control at the factory?) and GM is big enough to ignore the bad ones without losing sales (except mine). I have not installed an extra fuel filter because I know my fuel is clean and fresh (I use 6000 to 10000ltr. per day pumped from my own truck in my business). Thanx Geo.

Here's another question I have for you DMaxers. On the Cummins, it seems that most of the people who have injector problems have them on the #1 (front) cylinder. Following my theory of why the injectors die, this makes sense since straight 6 motors always run cooler in front and warmer in back, so the cooler temperatures would allow more gunk to build up. Are there any injectors that tend to be prone to failing on the DMax in particular? Could be a similar trend here.

I think it's more than dirty fuel as that would be a easy fix for GM to implement to halt future Injector claims.

I think we need to look else where to poor manufacturing and fracturing metal associated with heat possibly.



Mac

Entrained air cavitation erosion. Caterpillar knows (in talking with a fuel system engineer from finning) it and so does Bosch. So if it isn't dirt to be afraid of, entrained air certainly is.

Aeration and foaming resistance is another important indicator of fluid quality. Fluid in a hydraulic system always contains air as entrained bubbles, as well as in solution. The entrained air tends to increase compressibility of the fluid, making the system elastic, noisy, and erratic. Compression of this air generates heat and can increase oxidation.

Volumetric efficiency of the pump is reduced because air bubbles in the oil on the inlet side expand as the oil enters the pump. When the bubbles collapse on the discharge side, they can produce damage similar to cavitation erosion. Many high-quality fluids contain antifoaming additives to release air readily.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/bearingwear/bearingwearanalysis.htm

http://www.getottenassociates.com/pdf_files/Bubble%20Eliminator%20Paper%20for%20FP%20Expo%2020 03.pdf

This unequivically is why our injectors are failing IMHO. Dirt is a contributing factor, but entrained air is as suspect IMO

Yea but somebody tell us the most common failure and exactly what part of the injector is "broke".

Cracked body? Why? Too thin? Can't handle pressure? Entrained air causing what? Erosion? Where?

Erosion of the seat (dribbling injector/balance rate degredation)
Erosion of Tip (will not hold pressure/balance rate degredation)

Look at the CTD and DMX injectors
They are different, but i bet the tolerances the HPCR injects are built to are similar!
http://www.dipaco.com/rtf/rtfcatalogv1.5.pdf

There are a lot of major differences in the two.

I should have bought #8 in my truck for a closer look.Eric should be able to take some apart for us.How about it?

Unless GM has hit men out there.

Pressurizing H2O to these pressures will cause mini explosions. Any oil (even high antifoaming hydraulic oil)pulsed at these pressures will cavitate. The engineers should know this, so they should be designing for these factors. The part I do not understand is why the great varience in the running time to failure. Why do only 2 fail out of 8 or 1 out of 6 or 1 person goes through 2 sets of injectors in 70000m and somebody else doesnt have a problem in 70000m. Every thing has a life span (you never own anything you just rent it). If you knew the life span (to a reasonable degree) you could plan your maintenence and never have failure (theoretically). With the 10s of thousands of injector failures in the duramax you would think that someone in GM warranty would have acumulated the information from workorders, snap shots to TAC, tests in their labs, etc., and come up with a cure or a way to deny warranty (ala too big of a tire on the truck). Maybe it is cheaper to spec out the injectors at a lower price and keep replacing them till warranty runs out because we keep buying the trucks. Thanx Geo.

Very good points Geo,for certain as I've said also there is no common rhythm to failure.This says there is more than one problem in the field.I know we have had some common failures,but not all have failed the same.I had eratic idle,and knocking.Others haved filled their crankcase with diesel,some no start or slow start.
Early on all we had to go on is Dirty fuel.Same with entrapped air.
It's more,alot more to it.


Mac

When I had my 555 Cummins (HPCR), I found out the they same injection system had been in use in europe for 3yrs (like to read alot). The failure rate there, is next to nill, and Cummins 600hp ISX started having problems in North America. They developed new programming and recently new filtration, but it was the new programming that cured the injection system glitches. We all have heard that european diesel is better,cleaner, and dryer (less lubricating) (more refined). My thoughts on that are, we focus on the dirt in the fuel (the part our filter takes out) and not on the chemical composition. The fuel handlers (dirt and water) and the air humidity (water) over there can not be that much better. So back to chemical make up. The north american fuel is way higher in sulpher (even though it is low sulpher) and that is explosive and corrosive. I dont know for sure but it could preciptate at the high pressures of the HPCR system. My own experience is one of my diesel tune up tricks of adding a high quality two stroke oil a ratio of 500 to 1 (high flash point, mild detergent, high lubrication) to the fuel for a tank or two does not work on my HPCR trucks or equipment. Who knows what happens to it at 27000 psi. My duramax surges worse with it in the fuel. Every time I see the insides of a HPCR system I see crude (black precipitate that could be asphalates). Could the fuel be breaking down at these pressures? Anybody out there have the equipment to experiment with this theory? Cummins fix for north america, was slightly longer pulse durations (primary and secondary) with lower pressures. This added to the service life of the injection systems for HPCR Cummins in north america. Whats with Isuzu? Maybe filtering after the pressure increase is the answer? Thanx Geo.

What can you clean the map with? Any type of intake cleaner or maybe a throttle plate cleaner? I just removed my K&N.

Here’s an interesting note, I was reading up on HPCR did a Google search and found a post from another user on another forum, I’ll quote

“I will say this: I believe (hope?) our injectors are of different design/materials than the Duramax used (uses?). I think the lessons Bosch learned on the DMax system were applied to our system. I have no factual evidence to back that statement up...just comes from a long time reading this and other forums and looking over the Bosch website. Plus the fact that our system came into use a few years after the DMax system. If you look at the Bosch web page for their common rail system, they're calling it "3rd generation". I believe the Dmax uses the 1st generation, we have the 2nd generation, and perhaps the 2005-up trucks have the 3rd generation. Just a theory. Link to Bosch press release.”

Does anyone know if this is the case? Most of the postings I’ve read lead me to believe we share the same HPCR system, the setup just happens to be different due to V8 vs. I6. If this is true why would there be similar symptoms (i.e. rough idle, white smoke) between the different generations of HPCR? Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the Bosch HPCR will chime in, I’d think that verifying this generation gap or proving it to be incorrect will provide additional avenues of research for us.