I am trying to figure out why everyone is so against bio in percentages over 5%.

I am trying to figure out why everyone is so against bio in percentages over 5%.

on a new vehicle there shouldnt be any problems, the sticker on my lmm said diesel/ biodiesel. i know that biodiesel is a cleaner and it will eat away some fuel lines and gaskets on older engines. i have been running 100 percent bio in my lmm, lb7, lly with no problems and it seems to run better

I am trying to figure out why everyone is so against bio in percentages over 5%.
Volkswagen says the same thing. My neighbor who works at a dealership said the replace a lot of injectors, pumps, and filters on the tdi's, and if the find bio over 5% it's on the customer.:eek:

I am trying to figure out why everyone is so against bio in percentages over 5%.
Here are excerpts from a joint statement published by the Diesel Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers regarding biodiesel.

"Biodiesel fuels are collectively known as Fatty Acid Methyl Esters (FAME)."

"All FAMEs are less stable than mineral derived fuels."

"A particular concern is the oxidation stability of FAME blends with sulphur-free diesel fuels (S<10 ppm), ... The oxidation stability of blends as low as B5 can greatly reduce when using sulphur-free diesel or 15 ppm sulphur diesel such as that planned for introduction in U.S.A. in June 2006."

"The FIE manufacturers request their customers to support their efforts to obtain good oxidation stability for 5% FAME blends in Europe or for any other blend worldwide."

You can read their official statement HERE (http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=2498)

The real reason is the big oil companies don't make any money off of bio-diesel. It's not in their business interest, so they use their influence (big money) to discourage the use of bio. YMMV...

The auto manufacturers cannot determine a standard for biodiesel. So many feedstocks and quality issues.....It is really a CYA issue.

Volkswagen says the same thing. My neighbor who works at a dealership said the replace a lot of injectors, pumps, and filters on the tdi's, and if the find bio over 5% it's on the customer.:eek:

Do you know if they run a test on all fuel?

Ive dealt with VW dealers a lot, and there is one theme: complete and total incompetence. Most of them wouldnt know how to find a fuel filter, let alone a B20 fuel mixture.

I am trying to figure out why everyone is so against bio in percentages over 5%.

Real simple to answer!
Because of all the myths!

Engine manufacturers are not in the fuel busines. They do not do the testing on the fuel.
Most engine manufacturers today send their engines off the assembly line with Biodiesel in the tanks!
I have noticed an upward trend in the percentage warranted by the manufacturers. Eventually it will be B100. But since biodiesel is so hard to get B5 is a great blend to run in diesels! Only reason some of us run anything over b5 is because we have easy access to it!
I run B100 simply because I make it!

The real reason is the big oil companies don't make any money off of bio-diesel. It's not in their business interest, so they use their influence (big money) to discourage the use of bio. YMMV...


110% correct!!!!!

Real simple to answer!
Because of all the myths!

Engine manufacturers are not in the fuel busines. They do not do the testing on the fuel.
Most engine manufacturers today send their engines off the assembly line with Biodiesel in the tanks!
I have noticed an upward trend in the percentage warranted by the manufacturers. Eventually it will be B100. But since biodiesel is so hard to get B5 is a great blend to run in diesels! Only reason some of us run anything over b5 is because we have easy access to it!
I run B100 simply because I make it!

Question. Overall is biodiesel BETTER than regular diesel? As far as performance, engine longevity etc?

The real reason is the big oil companies don't make any money off of bio-diesel. It's not in their business interest, so they use their influence (big money) to discourage the use of bio. YMMV...

Thats what it sounds like to me!

As soon as the Big Oil companys figure out a way to make $$$ off Bio and pay off all the big auto company's,they will be happy to recommend it!

here is something that I posted on the Hummer forum.... but you guys could benefit from it as well.....

bio-fuels are 50% "clean" and 50% not-so "clean" as the current regulations on them are rather broad....

The issue with B20 or greater is that depending on what type of fatty acids were used (animal or veggie) the peroxide levels can be raised, and continue to raise while in your tank (more so with animal then veggie but both can do this). Of course, this means that its more corrosive and generally attacks the rubber hoses, brass fittings and various other metals / plastics. The corrosion can start if you have peroxide levels above 300 parts per million.

Generally, most stations are in the 300 ppm for peroxide levels. Below 100 is ideal, but some levels have been seen over 600.

The detriments are that the rubber will start to gel, the sock in the tank can get clogged, the filter can get clogged, the metal (fill pipes, lines etc) can corrode and some forms of plastics (acetyl specifically) can become rather brittle and crack.

I don't know the specific internals of the Lift pump nor the other major components of the fuel system, but if Teflon seals are used that can aid in prevention of "quick" seal degradation.

If you are running B100, the "best" way to deal with it would be to run on B20 or B0 at initial start-up and then switch to B100 when at operating temp and then switch back to the dino diesel prior to shut down to clear the lines as the B100 can solidify fairly quickly - but depending on locale, you might not need to do this.....

So, the bottom line, as I see it, is this: if you use your truck all the time, and burn through a tank of fuel every week, you would be less prone to having issues then those who let their truck sit for a while and it takes months to burn through a tank of fuel. And depending on your fuel source, you may never have a problem for either....


==========another post of mine clarifying some questions===========

Viton is a great material for sealing in "harsh" environments - Teflon coated seals for Bio-diesel will work as well (they are both from the same polymer family - FKM vs PTFE).

If you did a search on Peroxides you would find (from Wikepedia) "... that organic peroxides can accidentally initiate explosive polymerization in materials with unsaturated chemical bonds." which is exactly what I was saying by the peroxide levels increasing overtime. (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peroxide)) also take a look at http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38836.pdf (http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/38836.pdf) on page 8 second paragraph from the bottom as well as the section of the article about peroxides being the catalyst for fuel oxidation at the bottom of page 37 - along with other references through-out that article (page numbers according to adobe). Note this data is 2 yrs old - the data that I previously reported is current relative to the "numbers"

When you are talking about Hydroxides, I would assume you are talking about the Sodium Hydroxide (lye) that is used as a catalyst to CREATE the bio-diesel (or one of the elements used in transesterification).

Relative to the brass & aluminum corrosion - take a look at page 3 http://www.si.edu/MCI/download.....roxide.pdf (http://www.si.edu/MCI/downloads/reports/peroxide.pdf) - the peroxide completely ate away the brass sample.

As I previously stated - I know there are many folks who have run their trucks on Bio without any issues. The caution that I am trying to convey is that the "boggie" for bio-fuels is rather wide and most of the fueling stations do not "sample" their fuels (for obvious reasons) and rely on the fuel creator to supply "good" fuels - which just isn't always the case... What you "don't" know CAN hurt your pocket book and perhaps your mood...

Generally B5 won't hurt your fuel system due to the low, diluted amounts. B20 is where it starts to have the effects....

And yes, OEMs DO test fuel as that causes a LOT of warranty for them. The Big Oil companys are the fat cats that don't have to "pay-up" if their product doesn't perform to expectations (like a warranty)

here is something that i posted on the hummer forum.... But you guys could benefit from it as well..... Bio-fuels are 50% "clean" and 50% not-so "clean" as the current regulations on them are rather broad.... The issue with b20 or greater is that depending on what type of fatty acids were used (animal or veggie) the peroxide levels can be raised, and continue to raise while in your tank (more so with animal then veggie but both can do this). Of course, this means that its more corrosive and generally attacks the rubber hoses, brass fittings and various other metals / plastics. The corrosion can start if you have peroxide levels above 300 parts per million. Generally, most stations are in the 300 ppm for peroxide levels. Below 100 is ideal, but some levels have been seen over 600. The detriments are that the rubber will start to gel, the sock in the tank can get clogged, the filter can get clogged, the metal (fill pipes, lines etc) can corrode and some forms of plastics (acetyl specifically) can become rather brittle and crack. I don't know the specific internals of the lift pump nor the other major components of the fuel system, but if teflon seals are used that can aid in prevention of "quick" seal degradation. If you are running b100, the "best" way to deal with it would be to run on b20 or b0 at initial start-up and then switch to b100 when at operating temp and then switch back to the dino diesel prior to shut down to clear the lines as the b100 can solidify fairly quickly - but depending on locale, you might not need to do this..... So, the bottom line, as i see it, is this: if you use your truck all the time, and burn through a tank of fuel every week, you would be less prone to having issues then those who let their truck sit for a while and it takes months to burn through a tank of fuel. And depending on your fuel source, you may never have a problem for either.... bs

Question. Overall is biodiesel BETTER than regular diesel? As far as performance, engine longevity etc?

it runs better. it cleans the fuel tank and fuel system. it is supposed to make the engine last longer

I run b11 soy mix in the duramax, However I just bought a bluetec mercedes and they are adiment if there is a problem and there is over b5 they will not warranty the problem. I suppose I can try to mix half tanks of each, I would just prefer to run b11 in both and I am looking for info to make a decision on. I am also looking for a forum such as this where people discuss bluetec engines anyone seen one around?:)

Well I am always concerned about warranty issues too. BUT do you think the service dept will tell what blend you are using. Do you think they will send off and do a ASTM D6751 test for bad fuel ($1k test)or for mixture %. Is it even possible to find what blend ratio your doing with a simple test ? :) I think if you stay quiet (keep the ole pie hole closed) and say that you are using what they allow they should not even harrass you.

Vitron seals in the fuel system...as I understand it..was used by GM since the start of the duramax in anticipation of ULSD...which lack aromatics...which as I understand make the seals soft and supple. Without the aromatics those seals would shrink and leak. Enter Vitron. So we should be B100 compatible due to the fact the trucks can run ULSD.

It is possible that some of the rubber lines would degrade faster with the B100 and replacing them with the supper expensive Vitron lines would solve it but I have checked mine and they are not spongy or leaking and I have used Bio at high levels since new. 120k on the truck.

So B100 is a well known solvent that does attack rubber seals. Now the composition of the B100 due to animal or vegtable fats would cause more corrosive property well that is new to me. I am not a chemist so i am not sure.

Habanero are you out there? Can you comment on this?

bs


So he is lying about B100 damaging the rubber hoses? Come on! Multiple of people (diesel engineers) have also said the same thing too!

So he is lying about B100 damaging the rubber hoses? Come on! Multiple of people (diesel engineers) have also said the same thing too!
No... buna (nitrile) and rubber will degrade from b100. Thats proven. Viton is good for b100 service. There are other new materials that are compatible with b100 also. Hell even the rubber boot on the local b20 gas pump is falling apart from just that, its rubber... Just be aware that any soft line can deteriorate. Just the newer vehicles are less prone to hose failure due to new materials being used.

The practical solution is to use B80......at least IMO.

Not sure what all that BS was about 'peroxide' but Ive never heard a thing about it till now....

The practical solution is to use B80......at least IMO.

Not sure what all that BS was about 'peroxide' but Ive never heard a thing about it till now....
Are you a petrochemical chemist? or a diesel injection systems engineer? :rolleyes:

Maybe you stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night! :)

Well I am always concerned about warranty issues too. BUT do you think the service dept will tell what blend you are using. Do you think they will send off and do a ASTM D6751 test for bad fuel ($1k test)or for mixture %. Is it even possible to find what blend ratio your doing with a simple test ? :) I think if you stay quiet (keep the ole pie hole closed) and say that you are using what they allow they should not even harrass you.

Actually, the OEMs have authorized dealerships to do full blown fuel testing / sampling given prior approval. In other words, if the warranty claim is going to be to replace an engine or cost the OEM thousands, its nice to know what the source of the problem is - esspecially on a isolated case.....

Regarding the peroxides for animal vs veggie fats... all I was trying to convey there was that the different type of fat creates slightly more peroxides which are the catalysts for the "breaking" down of the rubbers and other materials in the fuel system.

I'll continue to run B100 in mine without concern. I've read that most automotive manufacturers changed over to viton fuel lines in the mid-late 90's. I've never heard anything about some percentage of peroxide levels in biodiesel. As long as the quality of your biodiesel is good (meaning that your fuel is fully converted, washed, and dried well) I would not hesitate at all to run it. I run nothing but B100 in my Duramax and will continue to do so. I've also had a newer Dodge Cummins 5.9, Ford Powerstroke 7.3, and two VW TDI's all running B100 without any problems at all. I've yet to actually find a report on where biodiesel made of good quality ruins an engine. I am a big supporter of biodiesel. It is much better fuel. It lubrication properties are much better and it burns much cleaner. It's amazing how much smoother and quieter biodiesel runs in any diesel engine. As far as the warranty thing goes, I think that over time auto manufacturers will accept a higher blend of biodiesel as it is getting more and more popular.

I'll continue to run B100 in mine without concern. I've read that most automotive manufacturers changed over to viton fuel lines in the mid-late 90's. I've never heard anything about some percentage of peroxide levels in biodiesel. As long as the quality of your biodiesel is good (meaning that your fuel is fully converted, washed, and dried well) I would not hesitate at all to run it. I run nothing but B100 in my Duramax and will continue to do so. I've also had a newer Dodge Cummins 5.9, Ford Powerstroke 7.3, and two VW TDI's all running B100 without any problems at all. I've yet to actually find a report on where biodiesel made of good quality ruins an engine. I am a big supporter of biodiesel. It is much better fuel. It lubrication properties are much better and it burns much cleaner. It's amazing how much smoother and quieter biodiesel runs in any diesel engine. As far as the warranty thing goes, I think that over time auto manufacturers will accept a higher blend of biodiesel as it is getting more and more popular.

Is there a way you can tell what the peroxide levels in the fuels are? Most stations that sell bio here are hi-volume stations so I'd assume it's good quality fuel. No animal in it, soybean I believe.

yup check out http://www.purewater4u.com/store/its/peroxide.shtml levels of peroxide can be in the 100-600 level (600 is high).....

i agree with adamrc, there are people who have been running b100 for three or rour years without any problems. as long as it is made right and clean and free from water it should be fine. i have a 74 mb that i switched over a few tanks ago and it dosent even seem like the same car. i haven't ran b100 in my duramax yet because i haven't made enough to fill that big tank but i am running at least b50 and it likes it very well. it is harmful to older hoses but i think most of that was addressed in the early 90's.

I was driving across country from Boston to LA last week and stopped at this place. I had never tried Biodiesel so I filled it up (Half Tank). I couldn't tell any difference except that it cost 8 cents more per gallon. I looked all over the pump and couldn't find any indication how what B number it was.

Any idea if this was B5 or B100 or whatever? I had never tried it before so I figured what the hell.

http://images28.fotki.com/v1001/photos/1/1208714/5318089/IMG_0506-vi.jpg

Are you a petrochemical chemist? or a diesel injection systems engineer? :rolleyes:




Is anyone here a petrochemical chemist? Or a diesel injection systems engineer?

If youve got a bone to pick with what I wrote, address the issue. If not, youre just wasting your breath. (metaphor)

Is anyone here a petrochemical chemist? Or a diesel injection systems engineer?

If youve got a bone to pick with what I wrote, address the issue. If not, youre just wasting your breath. (metaphor)
YES!

The practical solution is to use B80......at least IMO.

Not sure what all that BS was about 'peroxide' but Ive never heard a thing about it till now....
You keep making statements to contradict or diminish what others have posted, without any apparent knowledge basis.

The peroxide and fuel stability concerns stated by the diesel injection systems manufacturers are VERY REAL. The quality of Biodiesel is all over the map. It WILL degrade over a very short period of time. This is one of the reasons why PURE biodiesel is generally not considered hazardous during an accidental water spill, where as any concentration of mineral diesel IS.

These are some of the reasons why the injection systems manufacturers are very reluctant to support anything greater than 5% biodiesel (B5) at this time. (It is NOT some conspiracy with the oil companies.) But you attempt to detract from them by making totally unfounded comments.

It is one thing if you want to say that YOU will ignore their warnings for you own use. But to insinuate that others should ignore what injection system experts have said is reckless and uncalled for, unless you want to pick up their tab for any repairs required if they happen to have problems caused by the fuel used.

I appreciate the factual information, that was what I was looking for when I started this thread.

For what it is worth, the degradation of B100 is known...but it is not something that occurs overnight.

The rate degradation is not one I fully understand but one would think improper storage has a lot to do with it...seeing how this fuel will aborb water out of the air to levels around 1200ppm of water. Which is way too high.

Now one interesting study...which I cannot find right now...was done by the
Air Force on the stability of the fuel.

They were mainly looking at B20 because of the mandated use of the blend by the military.

They found that B20 was the MOST stable fuel over time as compared to Regular diesel...I am not sure if they compared it also to B100 but you would expect that would come in last.

So yes the fuel is less stable...but that can be controlled through proper handling.

As far as the quality of the fuel being all over the map...I can say that statement was most definitely true 2 years ago. Today the stuff I am seeing is consistently clear and my fridge test is confirming a lack of water.

I am about ready to send a sample over to George Morrison at AVlube to do a final confirmation on my supply of B100.

So one cannot really blame the OEM's for fear of the fuel...but I believe with the standards now in place for the fuel it will slowly become more mainstream.

I believe what today is a B5 stamp of approval will soon become a B20 stamp of approval..and so on.

I won't run anything but the pure 100 percent diesel until the bio stuff is all that is on the market. Too many if's, but's and and's so why run something that is so highly questionable.

Highly questionable by who? You..ok do you what you will. But Biodiesel has had millions of miles on it. Been around a long time.

The drawbacks and the positives of the fuel are well known and studied.

Thankfully there are enough people that see this fuel as way to diversify our fuel supply.

The biggest problem is trying to become mainstream in the presence of perhaps the most powerful industry on this planet.

I can tell you that the OEMs are moving towards having all Diesel powered trucks to be capable of running Bio.... partly because the gov wants to mandate B20 capabilities as mainstream (similar to how they made E10 mainstream)....

If you are one that doesn't burn through a tank of fuel in 2 weeks, then I wouldn't run Bio. If you do run through a tank that quickly then perhaps Bio is for you... I know many have run bio and have reported no ill effects...

YES! Where? If you are referring to yourself, you might want to change your sig.


You keep making statements to contradict or diminish what others have posted, without any apparent knowledge basis. No, Ive just read the biodiesel boards (real world experience) for the past 4 years on TDP, TDIclub, TDS. Lots of people mixing biodiesel and having great results....assuming that the fuel is fully reacted and DRY.

The peroxide and fuel stability concerns stated by the diesel injection systems manufacturers are VERY REAL. The quality of Biodiesel is all over the map. It WILL degrade over a very short period of time. This is one of the reasons why PURE biodiesel is generally not considered hazardous during an accidental water spill, where as any concentration of mineral diesel IS. Im sure the quality of BD is all over the map......there are many different plants making BD from many different feedstocks. Of course youre not going to get the same results. Ive personally run BD at high levels for over two years.....nothing special, but Ive done a lot of fallout and fridge tests with everything from B100 to B20. Ive never clogged a filter or lost an injector. But then again maybe Im getting good fuel. Also, I store it outside in drums for up to 4 months before use.......

These are some of the reasons why the injection systems manufacturers are very reluctant to support anything greater than 5% biodiesel (B5) at this time. (It is NOT some conspiracy with the oil companies.) Ive never made that claim. But you attempt to detract from them by making totally unfounded comments. All I said is that I believe mixing biodiesel and diesel will be the best option as opposed to running B100.

It is one thing if you want to say that YOU will ignore their warnings for you own use. But to insinuate that others should ignore what injection system experts have said is reckless and uncalled for, unless you want to pick up their tab for any repairs required if they happen to have problems caused by the fuel used.

Anyone who does not have the common sense to use their best judgement while reading opinions on the internet will get whats coming to them.

www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/toolbox/pdfs/biodiesel_stability_storage_brian_he.pdf

Do whatever you feel is OK. For me, until the bio is standardized and recommended by the mfg and mandated by the government I'm sticking with straight diesel and no ethynol in the MB either.

No, Ive just read the biodiesel boards (real world experience) for the past 4 years on TDP, TDIclub, TDS. Lots of people mixing biodiesel and having great results....assuming that the fuel is fully reacted and DRY.

Yeap, that's what I thought.... --"(R)eal world experience". Oh, yes, "fully reacted and DRY" are obviously (according to MT) the only requirements to insure good quality fuel.:rolleyes:

Why don't you try staying at the Holiday Inn Express? -It'll really make you an expert and you'll have all the knowledge to dispute what the manufacturers have to say about this. :D

Anyone who does not have the common sense to use their best judgement while reading opinions on the internet will get whats coming to them.

www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/toolbox/pdfs/biodiesel_stability_storage_brian_he.pdf
Diesel fuel injection equipment (FIE) manufacturers have seen and analyzed thousands of failed parts over the years; they still see them every day and pay Millions of Dollars every year in warranty claims. They don't just read posts at 3 or 4 bulletin boards and then decide what is best for their customers. Their recommendations are made after spending millions of dollars testing their products with a multitude of fuel blends in every conceivable environment that the product will see, to make sure that their customers' equipment will perform as designed for the life of the vehicle or machinery.

If you recall, not too long ago the FIEs were saying not to use ANY bio with their equipment. High pressure common rail systems are much more sensitive to fuel quality than the old mechanical systems. But as design improvements are made in order to better tolerate the effects from biodiesel, and more reputable bio manufacturers have come on stream, the diesel fuel injection equipment manufacturers have determined that the quality of the available fuel and ASTM specs have improved to the point where they feel that 5% bio is generally OK to burn in their newer engines, but only as long as it meets ASTM specifications. Even B5 can be bad if it doesn't meet specs, but at a 5% concentration, its bad effects will be much less compared to 100% or even 80%.

Yes, many owners have and continue to burn biodiesel at much higher concentrations than is recommended by the manufacturers, and SO FAR they have not noticed any ill effects. But, for the most part, unless they are getting their fuel from a reputable blender who is taking every precaution to ensure ASTM quality and will guarantee that their product will not harm your equipment, these people are taking a gamble with their equipment, because they really have no idea if the BIO fuel they are burning meets specifications or not. Many of these problems develop over time. You won't necessarily notice a problem after one or two tanks full of bad fuel. But by the time you do notice a problem, it will be too late.

I expect that it won't be long before the FIEs determine that B20 is OK to burn in their NEW engines, again as long as it meets ASTM specifications. However, I caution people from using any concentration of biodiesel that is outside their equipment manufacturer's specification, because if they have any injection system problem, they run the risk of having their warranty claim denied and I'm sure most everyone here knows that those kinds of repairs are not cheap.

Like the old saying goes "BUYER BEWARE!" ;)

I think its cause bio is still relativly new and isnt extensivly researched yet. Personally woudlnt worry anything under 20%. Guys on here use more w/no problems.

Not knowing much about it, B5, B20, B50, B34251, What does it all mean Bazzil? Are these percentages mixed with #2 diesel?
I am in the process of making a deal to purchase some Bio on a weekly basis from an aquointance, who just purchased a Fuel Mieser II . He seems to have everything in order. My plan is to have him deliver into my 250gal. tank. How long is Bio stable enough to be stored in a steel tank outdoors? Yes, I run at least a tank of fuel per week. We also own a 2006 Cat. powered Kenworth truck(accert motor). I will do some research but am planning on running Bio in that also.

HELPFULL comments would be appreciated.

Brand new Diesel truck has a clogged fuel filter after only 2500 miles. Why? Because of Safeway fuel, B20, 100% of the fuel bought there. No BS. Safeway address is 13013 SE Kangley Rd. Kent, WA. Dealer charged me $169 to diagnose and replace the filter. I'll NEVER buy Safeway B20 again. But I'll admit I’ve never had a problem with the regular "gas" I bought there for my "gas" vehicles. Maybe it was a dirty batch? Or maybe it was B20 eating up the fuel system prior to the filter. Chevron Dino-diesel is what I’m buying now.