Once again i found myself daydreaming, could a d-max be mech. injected? or has this been done? If u think about it this has some attractive values to it. Ever noticed how many guys are putting 12v cummins in their chevys; prob. cause they make easy power and no fussin with electronics and there isn't a good chev. mech diesel to swap that can make big power! I'm sure the hassle of putting a d-max and elec. parts turns alot away from it otherwise. If u look at it the LB7 is perfect for it. Machine custom inj. cups to fit cummins 12v injectors, which would eliminate the crap LB7 inj. Make mountings for twin P7100's from cummins 4cyl ISB or if there is one a single 8cyl P7100. The only othe obsticle is the inj. lines and that isnt bad. Put a TH-400 behind it and go! Maybe it's just me beein stupid but somthing that would be cool! (minus the parts that are perfect are cummins ones!)

How are you going to control the injector timing, amount of fuel delivered and throttle controls required for various speed and loads?

How are you going to control the injector timing, amount of fuel delivered and throttle controls required for various speed and loads?

How does a old 12 valve do it? ;) :D

How does a old 12 valve do it? ;) :D

X2, Just like the 12v, If u remove all the elec. stuff from a d-max, it's still a diesel like any other. All the electronic parts are for the common-rail sys. and emissions for the most part!

With the old Mech trucks all you need to controll it is a coat hanger through the hood if you wana get real redneck :grd: ):h

Lot of old trucks are so mechanical that you have a seperate mechanical fuel shut off to get it to quit. Turn off the key and the only thing that dies is the radio ):h NO electronics what so ever.

It is very possible and already in the works! Ratlover, now you know why my truck is in so many pieces and Seth is running all of my old goodies. We are shooting for the Gordyville indoor pull. Hopefully sitting this summer out will pay off in the long run. I'll keep you posted.

why????

do you think a mechanically injected diesel is easier to make power out of than an electronic duramax??? EFILive??? Plug something in and type some numbers on a keyboard? :)

You are creating so many head aches that are not necessary. If you think swapping an electronic dmax into an old vehicle is expensive, I cant even imagine how much it would cost in R&D to make a mechanically injected duramax.

You are going around texas to get to new hampshire from connecticut ;)

Honestly, the reason the P7100 is used in high HP apps is because people have been modding it for 20 years and know what works and what doesnt. People have just started (in comparison) to mess with electronic diesels. The possibilities with HPCR are endless and infinitely variable. In 5 years as people continue to develop computer tuning, IMHO you will see mechanical injection fade away. There is no advantage to it that I can see. HPCR can do everything it does and SO much more.

Remember the P7100 is fixed timing. What you set it at when you install it is what you're stuck at. How inconvinient is that? You need timing to make power. But that means keeping that same timing * at idle. Good luck starting (withOUT 5 cans of ether) a mechanical pump'd diesel at 20* of timing. Not feasible for a daily driver in the slightest.

electronics can adjust stuff in 30 seconds, have switchable on the fly tunes, and complete control of everything.

This wasn't intended to be a daily driver. Sled Puller only. There will not be an Ally transmission behind it either. How high can you take a HPCR duramax in rpm's and fuel it efficiently with EFI live?

Yeah.....just pount the key board a few times and BAM! Instant power. Easy!

I think either you or your brother might have mentioned that nathan......but now that you see how easy it is and how you need timing to make power. better scrap your build plans and just get EFI live instead. ):h The possiblities with HPCR is endless guys.....you know your not going to make any power driving to texas. All the big pulling guys will be ditching thier p pumps in 5 years and putting efi live on their trucks.....you guys might as well get on board early. I tell you what....you country boys dont know crap about making power ):h

Old school BBC technology is a dinasour.....you dont see anyone competing with those. I mean with aftermarket improvments and all they are just bandaiding em. Nothing can compete with todays technology and efficiency

:rotflmao:

This wasn't intended to be a daily driver. Sled Puller only. There will not be an Ally transmission behind it either. How high can you take a HPCR duramax in rpm's and fuel it efficiently with EFI live?

LBZ has the capability to accurately time and fuel up to almost 7,000rpm. LLY/LB7 can do 5,000 or so rpm. How much more do you want?

IMHO you are wasteing your time trying to make a mechanical dmax.

We could use a Stanadyne Rotary IP off of a 6.2:D :lol: If I was serious that would be the funniest post of the year. Where is my prize?

We could use a Stanadyne Rotary IP off of a 6.2:D :lol: If I was serious that would be the funniest post of the year. Where is my prize?

Tha inject enough fule to start a duramax? ):h

Probably enough fuel to cover the Pilot Injection:gr_grin:

Probably enough fuel to cover the Pilot Injection:gr_grin:
No way! You would need one of those pumps per cylinder just to get to 500rwhp!:iamlost:

How does a old 12 valve do it? ;) :DI didn't say that it can't be done. Of course a diesel engine manufacturer can do it. I cut my teeth on diesels with mechanical injection systems. I went to school for several months many years ago to learn how to troubleshoot, service and develop automotive applications using mechanical injection systems and I worked in the engineering end of the business for many years. So I know it CAN be done.

I'm talking about setting up an existing Duramax diesel engine to run using a completely different mechanical injection system. Heck installing the nozzles and making new injection lines are the least of the problem.

It's a nice thought, but it will take MEGA $$$$ and a lot of engineering talent and equipment to design, develop, build, test and validate such a system. Unless you have the engineering and manufacturing resources of a major diesel engine manufacturer, you will go broke long before you can have a feasible design that works.

You have to figure out, design and build the system for mounting the mechanical pump and the rest of the injection system onto the engine. You have to design the injectors and the injection lines. Then you have to design and build the means for the injection system to be properly synchronized to the engine so that the timing, fuel delivery and throttle controls work correctly during all engine speeds and loads. All along, you need to make sure your design meets all federal and state mandated emission requirements for the life of the engine and you have to prove it by running countless durability and torture tests and documenting everything so the EPA and CARB are willing to allow you to drive that sucker on public roads.

I guarantee you that simply bolting a Cummins mechanical pump, injectors and lines on a Duramax will not go anywhere, even if you do run your coat hanger thru the firewall to control the pump. :) ;)

It is very possible and already in the works! Ratlover, now you know why my truck is in so many pieces and Seth is running all of my old goodies. We are shooting for the Gordyville indoor pull. Hopefully sitting this summer out will pay off in the long run. I'll keep you posted.

I will have to talk to you some time. I have been tossing this idea around in my head for awhile:) If someone can get 1500 hp with efi let me no, because it can be done with a mechanical pump.:)

I will have to talk to you some time. I have been tossing this idea around in my head for awhile:) If someone can get 1500 hp with efi let me no, because it can be done with a mechanical pump.:)
Give it a month or four, it will happen, there are a few over a 1,000hp, and as far as i know the p-pump wasnt doin it 5 years after it hit the market, but i could be wrong. I have to agree, that the HPCR is pretty much limit less. Hell, why doesnt sombody come up with a triple cp3 kit, i am sure it's possible. Some bigger fuel rails, injectors, and yes; some pistons that can take it, and we will be there. I like the idea of a mechanical duramax, and i am not puttin it down. But i think that we will get the common rails there pretty soon, it just takes time, thats all.

[quote=1FastMax;1945684;]Hell, why doesnt sombody come up with a triple cp3 kit, quote]

im pretty sure thats already been done;)

Ben show me A LBZ turning 7000 rpm's then ill be convinced
all lbz's ive seen start to defuel around 3500

Until i can see a efi duramax spinning 5000 + and can free rev higher im not convinced

Until then a p pumped Dmax for pulling would be frickin insane:D

Im sure it CAN be done...I have already seen a p pumped common rail dodge and it ran real good. When a p pump goes on a duramax we will see very very high hp numbers.....and im sure alot of carnage

why doesnt sombody come up with a triple cp3 kit, i am sure it's possible

Very possible, it's already been done to some extent and has been in the works for some time now.

You have to figure out, design and build the system for mounting the mechanical pump and the rest of the injection system onto the engine. You have to design the injectors and the injection lines. Then you have to design and build the means for the injection system to be properly synchronized to the engine so that the timing, fuel delivery and throttle controls work correctly during all engine speeds and loads. All along, you need to make sure your design meets all federal and state mandated emission requirements for the life of the engine and you have to prove it by running countless durability and torture tests and documenting everything so the EPA and CARB are willing to allow you to drive that sucker on public roads.


We're not talking about a daily driver we're talking about strictly pulling with it. I agree that it would be way to hard to build one for the road.

Who needs to change timing that much on the track? When you pull you are at high RPMs so that is where you set your timing to run at.

Not trying to be an a**hole but am just stating my side of things.

This will happen and I think all will be impressed. Besides who wants to have something everyone else can? Why not go out on a limb and be different.

[quote=1FastMax;1945684;]Hell, why doesnt sombody come up with a triple cp3 kit, quote]

im pretty sure thats already been done;)

Ben show me A LBZ turning 7000 rpm's then ill be convinced
all lbz's ive seen start to defuel around 3500

Until i can see a efi duramax spinning 5000 + and can free rev higher im not convinced

Until then a p pumped Dmax for pulling would be frickin insane:D

Im sure it CAN be done...I have already seen a p pumped common rail dodge and it ran real good. When a p pump goes on a duramax we will see very very high hp numbers.....and im sure alot of carnage

The LBZ ECM has the brainpower to do it, we just need to get the tables.

WHY do we need to spin more than 5,000 rpm??? Why do we need a P-pump? "Just because its a p pump" doesnt mean its going to breath newfound life and HP into anything its bolted on to. It is 50 year old technology and not the answer to anything or any one of the dmax's current issues when pushed to the limit.

I 110% guarantee you even if someone made this fantasy P-pumped dmax, it would make no more hp than a healthy commonrail setup with dual (or triple) CP3's. Because 1000hp with a twin CP3'd Nasty Girl isnt "very very high hp"??? They still have fuel left and thats with only two CP3's. Like I said, ability to fuel is the LEAST of our problems with taking the dmax further. There are so many logistical nightmares involved in getting this to work that its not even worth (IMO) taking the time to think about designing it. There is NO advantage to this! Im not sure how you guys see promise in this idea. WHy would a p-pumped dmax be so awesome????

A p-pumped CR cummins is the same as having any p-pumped 24 valve. No un-fixable ECM issues to deal with, combined with better flowing 24v head. Better than a 12v p-pump cummins? You bet! Better than a cracked ECM HPCR with complete tuning capabilities? Not a chance!!!

I say we concentrate on real problems, like pistons...then after we can keep a 1200hp HPCR dmax together, and after every other hurdle in the engine is conquered, someone will look into bolting a mechanical pump on (why, I still do not know!).

P pump is still king on the cummins because the VP44 sucks, and they cant crack the ECM on the common rail cummins. If they could completely figure out the Cummins ECM the P pump would go the way of the dodo bird. P pumps are so innefficent on sled pulling trucks. Like I said, FIXED timing, so you have a very narrow RPM range you can run and still have the best balance of fuel and timing to make the most power.


no offence to anyone who feels positively about the idea, this is just my own oppinion :)

this is just my own oppinion :)

You look very ignorant to someone who knows what mechanical pumps can do. HPCR will NEVER do some of the things that a mechanical pump can do.

Your general Cummins knowledge of heads...etc, is also lacking.

I'm sure anyone considering this project will surely value your "oppinion".

Oh, btw, all mechanical pumps don't have static timing.

Why go for a P-pump when you could have a sigma?

Tha inject enough fule to start a duramax? ):h
I'm still laughing at your avatar, so funny I almost fell over.

I think we could use steve's input here, he know about makin real power on the DMax, Pat, and Guy to.

You look very ignorant to someone who knows what mechanical pumps can do. HPCR will NEVER do some of the things that a mechanical pump can do.

Your general Cummins knowledge of heads...etc, is also lacking.

I'm sure anyone considering this project will surely value your "oppinion".

Oh, btw, all mechanical pumps don't have static timing.

when did I say all mechanical pumps have static timing. rotary pumps dont.

fine, oh knowledgeable one, tell me how a mechanical pumped duramax would be the greatest thing since sliced bread

You look very ignorant to someone who knows what mechanical pumps can do. HPCR will NEVER do some of the things that a mechanical pump can do.

Your general Cummins knowledge of heads...etc, is also lacking.

I'm sure anyone considering this project will surely value your "oppinion".

Oh, btw, all mechanical pumps don't have static timing.

You are referring to the amount of fuel flow, right?
CR is the future or a hybrid form which would consist of both (mech pump/common rail).:D

Why go for a P-pump when you could have a sigma?

We would do that but the ITPA rules do not allow it at this time, but hopefully that will change over the next couple of years......

You look very ignorant to someone who knows what mechanical pumps can do. HPCR will NEVER do some of the things that a mechanical pump can do.

Your general Cummins knowledge of heads...etc, is also lacking.

I'm sure anyone considering this project will surely value your "oppinion".

Oh, btw, all mechanical pumps don't have static timing.


I agree

By the way why is everyone shooting down a fellow DP member for trying something different?

I am not saying HPCR is not good. But I think there is more to be said from a mechanical pump.

LBZ has the capability to accurately time and fuel up to almost 7,000rpm. LLY/LB7 can do 5,000 or so rpm. How much more do you want?

IMHO you are wasteing your time trying to make a mechanical dmax.


Ben, you can play with EFI Live, we will play with the mechanical and will meet ya at the track. :D I mean everyone thinks Nasty Girl is the greatest thing ever, and I respect him for his time and efforts to make it to where he is at, but like smokin 4 u said, we try to go out on a limb, and get slammed for it???? :wtf1: Again, everyone has an opinion, but we do not want to wait 2 to 3 years, so we are going to try it.............. Johnboy I love your avatar!!!!

LBZ has the capability to accurately time and fuel up to almost 7,000rpm. LLY/LB7 can do 5,000 or so rpm. How much more do you want?[quote]

Lots more!:) Where are these files? All the LBZ stuff I have tops out at 4800rpm. I have heard the LBZ ECM can process it fast enough but if the tables are not there where SOL. Unless the EFI Live fellows are not giving us the full monty which is very likely. I am not getting my hopes up on the LBZ ECM. The other issue is as far as I know there is no OS that will work with out the Allison TCM to talk to. Ever try to stick an ECM out of a Ally truck in a stick truck. It get pissy in a hurry. It misses it little freind TCM and throws all kinds of codes many have never seen.:eek: I figured out a way around it but it would only work for so long before it got lonely and wanted to talk to its freind TCM again. AFAIK the LBZ ECM does not have a manaul trans OS. Which means even if the EFI boys give us new expanded tables where still SOL because the Allison will not like big RPM.

[quote=DURAtotheMAX;1945802;][quote=ecc_33;1945710;]
WHY do we need to spin more than 5,000 rpm??? Why do we need a P-pump? "Just because its a p pump" doesnt mean its going to breath newfound life and HP into anything its bolted on to. It is 50 year old technology and not the answer to anything or any one of the dmax's current issues when pushed to the limit.

I 110% guarantee you even if someone made this fantasy P-pumped dmax, it would make no more hp than a healthy commonrail setup with dual (or triple) CP3's. Because 1000hp with a twin CP3'd Nasty Girl isnt "very very high hp"??? They still have fuel left and thats with only two CP3's. Like I said, ability to fuel is the LEAST of our problems with taking the dmax further. There are so many logistical nightmares involved in getting this to work that its not even worth (IMO) taking the time to think about designing it. There is NO advantage to this! Im not sure how you guys see promise in this idea. WHy would a p-pumped dmax be so awesome????

A p-pumped CR cummins is the same as having any p-pumped 24 valve. No un-fixable ECM issues to deal with, combined with better flowing 24v head. Better than a 12v p-pump cummins? You bet! Better than a cracked ECM HPCR with complete tuning capabilities? Not a chance!!!

I say we concentrate on real problems, like pistons...then after we can keep a 1200hp HPCR dmax together, and after every other hurdle in the engine is conquered, someone will look into bolting a mechanical pump on (why, I still do not know!).

P pump is still king on the cummins because the VP44 sucks, and they cant crack the ECM on the common rail cummins. If they could completely figure out the Cummins ECM the P pump would go the way of the dodo bird. P pumps are so innefficent on sled pulling trucks. Like I said, FIXED timing, so you have a very narrow RPM range you can run and still have the best balance of fuel and timing to make the most power.


no offence to anyone who feels positively about the idea, this is just my own oppinion :)

I think you need to learn a little more about the P-pump.

For sled pulling The Diesel Motorsport that matters! RPM is good, more great, lots more is Oh Hell Yeah! :ro) I have explained HP is function of torque to you before. With the same torque and more RPM you make more HP. With more horsepower you pull futher!

Ben, you can play with EFI Live, we will play with the mechanical and will meet ya at the track. :D I mean everyone thinks Nasty Girl is the greatest thing ever, and I respect him for his time and efforts to make it to where he is at, but like smokin 4 u said, we try to go out on a limb, and get slammed for it???? :wtf1: Again, everyone has an opinion, but we do not want to wait 2 to 3 years, so we are going to try it.............. Johnboy I love your avatar!!!!

This is my first post in this thread and I already had a Avatar comment!:) Thanks Seth!

I say givem hell boys! The hard part to me will be finding a V8 pump and mounting it. There is a MOD class Ford pulling truck (Double Overtime) that runs a 7.3 with a mech. pump. Runs strong to! He has crazy money it but it is freakin cool. I heard he uses a V8 Mack pump? You will need to make sure the pump has a firing order that will work with the cam. Even if it doesnt match it is not a huge deal. I know where you can get a custom billet cam for the Dmax made. I already have one!:) At the kind of RPM you want billet is manditory IMHO.


My thoughts on the future of Common Rail diesel performance.

To me the real advance in CR diesel has not happened yet. Just like in the early days of EFI Gas the ECM is holding us back. Until we take the Bosch or Delphi ECM out and set it on the shelf we are working with one hand tied behind our backs. We need a stand alone ECM! Than we can really rock. I have been talking with the makers of mnay of the best known Gas standalones and found that they could not run our injectors because of the very high volatge they run on. Using them to take control of the FICM is possible though. But I rather have a Standalone that could run with out it. That way one ECM could run LB7/LLY, LBZ/LLM, CTD, and maybe even the new Intertrashnal 6.4. I just recently found that such a critter is exists! It aint cheap but damn I want it. I been told it has processing speeds capable of dealing with RPM more than twice that of what I have already spun.:eek: :ro) :ro) :ro) :ro)

Sound kinda like my Accell DFI in th erace car.

I no expert and don't claim to be.

One big question (at least at this stage in D-Max ville): If we can't get a motor to live reliably at the HP we are at, why try to push it furthur with other parts. One of the big things we noticed with Dual CP3's is that shit started to break much quicker and that was with infinite control over fuel timing and volume (withing the injectors parameters) thanks to efi live. Now you want to try and use mechanical injection which is less precise, which would lead me to believe it would break shit much quicker....

All the big dog Cummin's guys are using it, but they have a bottom end that can take several times as much abuse as the DMax and also alot of time and $$ in research for THEIR application. Don't get me wrong, I like the DMax, but the Cummins does have a stouter bottom end (NO question about it).

If I understand the mechanical pump, timing can be a function of RPM (similar to mechanical advance on a distributor), but aren't you also limited to a specific range?

I'm not saying don't do it, but it seems to be an exercise in futility. Putting a DMax in an older vehicle would be sweet (and has been done), but it seems using an older motor with a donor harness and ECM would be much simpler and less $$$, for what it's worth....

If we get to a point where the DMax can live reliably at 1000HP and computer tuning becomes the obstacle, then it would make perfect sense to look into a mechanical alternative.

I can't wait until the CR Cummin's guys have some time to tweak as there have a been a few putting out some pretty high numbers from them with little time to experiment.

I no expert and don't claim to be.

One big question (at least at this stage in D-Max ville): If we can't get a motor to live reliably at the HP we are at, why try to push it furthur with other parts. One of the big things we noticed with Dual CP3's is that shit started to break much quicker and that was with infinite control over fuel timing and volume (withing the injectors parameters) thanks to efi live. Now you want to try and use mechanical injection which is less precise, which would lead me to believe it would break shit much quicker....

All the big dog Cummin's guys are using it, but they have a bottom end that can take several times as much abuse as the DMax and also alot of time and $$ in research for THEIR application. Don't get me wrong, I like the DMax, but the Cummins does have a stouter bottom end (NO question about it).

If I understand the mechanical pump, timing can be a function of RPM (similar to mechanical advance on a distributor), but aren't you also limited to a specific range?

I'm not saying don't do it, but it seems to be an exercise in futility. Putting a DMax in an older vehicle would be sweet (and has been done), but it seems using an older motor with a donor harness and ECM would be much simpler and less $$$, for what it's worth....

If we get to a point where the DMax can live reliably at 1000HP and computer tuning becomes the obstacle, then it would make perfect sense to look into a mechanical alternative.

I can't wait until the CR Cummin's guys have some time to tweak as there have a been a few putting out some pretty high numbers from them with little time to experiment.

Agreed!! Fuel and RPM are not the problem right now. Most sled Pulls limit to 4500 RPM unless you are going to pull modified or unlimited good luck with that.

Ben, one thing I think you fail to understand is that this isnt a street truck discussion. No one cares how efficeint it is, how many cans of either it needs :blahblah: These are purpose built trucks made to run in a certian RPM range for 300'. Nothing else matters.



WHY do we need to spin more than 5,000 rpm??? Why do we need a P-pump? P pumps are so innefficent on sled pulling trucks.

More RPM is better. Go tell the big boy pullers that they only need to spin thier motors to 3200 RPM because thats were the power band should be.

Ben, I swear this to god. If you talk about efficiency in a discussion about all out performance again I am pulling your man card. Matter of fact if I see the word efficiency from you in any of the competition forums other than to say "Who gives a Censored about efficiency" I am going to question your sexual orientation. :p:

):h

BTW excellent post Johnboy :)

btw excellent post johnboy :) agreed

agreed

x2.

I like the idea. Good to see more people talking about it and even doing it already.

I'm glad that some of you are all for this. I think it's great that the duramax is a serious contender in the street class but is that all we are shooting for???? Ben you have posted several times in this thread asking why. My question to you is why not? The ITPA class I've signed up for contains some of the top pro stock diesels in the country. Rodney Tarr, Brad Ingram, Bill Heyen etc, there is no way my truck will compete at this level with twin pumps and a hot efi live tune.

rotary pumps dont.



wasn't talking about rotary pumps, we were talking about inline pumps.



I say we concentrate on real problems, like pistons...then after we can keep a 1200hp HPCR dmax together, and after every other hurdle in the engine is conquered, someone will look into bolting a mechanical pump on (why, I still do not know!).

Maybe because you won't be able to hold a 1200 HPCR motor together.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4381666041681185600&q=brad+ingram+pulling+truck&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Here is a good example of the trucks that he will be competing with. Ingram's truck easily spins to 6K.

Pretty sure he isn't running EFILive. ):h

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4381666041681185600&q=brad+ingram+pulling+truck&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Here is a good example of the trucks that he will be competing with. Ingram's truck easily spins to 6K.

Pretty sure he isn't running EFILive. ):h

Will a Duramax hold that much fuel/power currently? I think we are trying to put the cart before the horse.

Not trying to be a jerk, and it would be cool if it could do it, but as of right now.....?

Not that it isn't great to try something totally different than the norm.
But the HPCR system is not the obstacle to overcome in order to compete with the big dogs. CR technology is much more precise than P-pump. it will just take time to get the rest of the motor to handle the power available.
Good luck with the project and hope it works for you guys.

Will a Duramax hold that much fuel/power currently? I think we are trying to put the cart before the horse.

Not trying to be a jerk, and it would be cool if it could do it, but as of right now.....?

That depends on how you make the power. Back to my rev hard it actually easier on then the engine than big torque at below 3000RPM rant.

What are the two main killers of the weak link in our engines right now the piston? Pressure and heat. To make big HP and keep things alive IMHO rpm is the anwser. If you keep your torque down than you keep your cylinder pressures down. The higher the RPM the more air you move. The less time your piston your piston is exposed to the heat of ignition. The more oil you flow to cool the pistons.

To really make it work you will to choose your parts wisely as everything must be setup to work in the rev band you want. Cam design, turbo charger, injectors, pistons, valvetrain and so on need to be addressed.

This is far from a new Idea. This is how diesel tractor pullers and Cummins truck pullers have been getting it done in the top classes of pulling.

[quote=ecc_33;1945710;]


I 110% guarantee you even if someone made this fantasy P-pumped dmax, it would make no more hp than a healthy commonrail setup with dual (or triple) CP3's. Because 1000hp with a twin CP3'd Nasty Girl isnt "very very high hp"??? They still have fuel left and thats with only two CP3's. Like I said, ability to fuel is the LEAST of our problems with taking the dmax further. There are so many logistical nightmares involved in getting this to work that its not even worth (IMO) taking the time to think about designing it. There is NO advantage to this!

I say we concentrate on real problems, like pistons...

Your lack of "Pulling experience shows" More rpms would make up for what we dont have with EFI live....I would rather run a 5000 rpms than at 3200 like i do now....The more r's you can turn the more usable power there is across the board....Ever try spoolin a real big charger?....it takes LOTS of r's to do so. And as far as keeping them alive? I seem to think alot of people forget that kyle has been doing it longer than you have even had your dmax:)...... Dont get me wrong there are down falls to p-pumps...but for pulling it would be the cats moew.....I know the older V-8 CATS had inline v style pumps but dont know how efficient they are at pumping massive fuel?....The older macks would be a good choice too

wasn't talking about rotary pumps, we were talking about inline pumps.


Maybe because you won't be able to hold a 1200 HPCR motor together.

well then why dont you stop being a pain and enlighten me? you know you were as dumb as me once too.

Ben there has been a big discusion on how the cp3's loose efficiency over around 4000rpm's...You get turning 4800+ with 80-100% bigger injectors and rail pressure drops way low....The more rpm's you can carry (with a good cam and heads) the higher the horse power curve is.....the higher rpm's/hp's the less torque and lower drive pressure...That will help a engine live.

IIRC i made 544hp at around 3300-3400rpms
i made my peak torque at around 2300-2400rpms....
Now as the r's went up torque decreased....at about 4200+ the hp was dropping rather fast....if it was peaking in hp around 5500 the torque would be way lower imho....i think it would have a much better chance of stayin in one piece and pulling way better

Whatever pump the Double Overtime truck is running fuels pretty well, watched him pull and beat Scheids truck twice the same night.

Will a Duramax hold that much fuel/power currently? I think we are trying to put the cart before the horse.

Not trying to be a jerk, and it would be cool if it could do it, but as of right now.....?

:exactly:

I believe he is running a v style pump. There is a similar mechanical 7.3 powerstroke one of my buddies just built with an inline pump. Look under Billy Zimmer or Stroked Out on youtube to see it.

Billy's truck is impressive that is for sure.

[quote=1FastMax;1945684;]Hell, why doesnt sombody come up with a triple cp3 kit, quote]

im pretty sure thats already been done;)

Ben show me A LBZ turning 7000 rpm's then ill be convinced
all lbz's ive seen start to defuel around 3500

Until i can see a efi duramax spinning 5000 + and can free rev higher im not convinced

Until then a p pumped Dmax for pulling would be frickin insane:D

Im sure it CAN be done...I have already seen a p pumped common rail dodge and it ran real good. When a p pump goes on a duramax we will see very very high hp numbers.....and im sure alot of carnage


Like a busted bottem end. :eek:

If you wanna P pumped diesel, buy a Cummins. Then you wont have to work around all the piston issues and extra expense. You can build a competitive 12V much cheaper and it will spin the RPM you want. All that on a nearly stock engine.

Technology is evolving, why go backwards?

WOW!, I didn't know what kinda storm my little daydream was gonna brew up! Thanks all for the post's! Like u guys have mentioned the d-max needs help in the rotating assembly area before we start pushing 3000hp worth of fuel in it, I follow that completly! I just started the post out of frustration with my injectors and i was curious if this had been done or in the works. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE HPCR, greatest thing since Krispy Kream! but untill "miracle injection" is developed, any sys out there will have it's pro's & con's. It prob. wouldn't make the best choice for street/daily trucks if ur trying for rotate the earth power, however it might be pretty impressive in a truck with a focused application= SLEDS, again providing the bottom can handle it. It would be a cool as a kit that could be bolted on for some one that is electronic stupid that wants a d-max in somthin it dosn't come in. And as i mentioned originally, no crap cracked, leaky LB7 injectors. I have some very limited machining experiance and i'm a dang good fabricator and i'm pretty sure With the machinery parts and some $$$, I could pull it off. I'm not claiming to be a genius or a smart@## but It really isnt rocket science. It wouldn't be cheap, at least not initally but you never know! IF u really want some timing adjustment, make the pump mount on a Top-Fuel adj. mag base for timing adj., or heaven forbid make somthing. Putting it in the CP3 location would be easyest but it could go elsewhere. Any how keep the posts up! I like hearing what u guys have to say!

And as i mentioned originally, no crap cracked, leaky LB7 injectors. !

put LLY heads on it and use LLY injectors. :p: :D

put LLY heads on it and use LLY injectors. :p: :D

That would be awsome, if and when i have the money to! When i tear it down it likly will get LLY heads, unless someone makes some i dont know 4130 billet injectors:eek:! I would like to reuse my current tip beings i sunk $400 in the ExtrudeHone process on em! which was worth every penny!

I was reading a bit in this thread and there are some funny statements:

[quote=Kyle03D;1945851;]You look very ignorant to someone who knows what mechanical pumps can do. HPCR will NEVER do some of the things that a mechanical pump can do.[quote]

I'm glad that somebody knows the future, check out the links:

www.dieselperformanceresearch.com (http://www.dieselperformanceresearch.com) ; http://www.jcbdieselmax.com ; http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/022506/content.shtml

Kyle, please tell me what the differences is between a mechanical Injection System Horsepower and the HPCR Horsepower and why we will never see that power bt HPCR?????????

I guess here is somebody ignorant :eek:

I have a standalone ECU for the D-max, which works on the www.dieselperformanceresearch.com (http://www.dieselperformanceresearch.com/) and on the JCB's race truck. My plan was to develop it further for a real standalone aftermarket kit, but I guess my resources went out.

What we need to make big HP? Fuel and air ==> fuel 2xCP3 is good for 1200 HP, now you need a nice turbo combination to get the air in to make the power.

I was reading a bit in this thread and there are some funny statements:

[quote=Kyle03D;1945851;]You look very ignorant to someone who knows what mechanical pumps can do. HPCR will NEVER do some of the things that a mechanical pump can do.[quote]

I'm glad that somebody knows the future, check out the links:

www.dieselperformanceresearch.com (http://www.dieselperformanceresearch.com) ; http://www.jcbdieselmax.com ; http://www.audiworld.com/news/06/022506/content.shtml

Kyle, please tell me what the differences is between a mechanical Injection System Horsepower and the HPCR Horsepower and why we will never see that power bt HPCR?????????

I guess here is somebody ignorant :eek:

I have a standalone ECU for the D-max, which works on the www.dieselperformanceresearch.com (http://www.dieselperformanceresearch.com/) and on the JCB's race truck. My plan was to develop it further for a real standalone aftermarket kit, but I guess my resources went out.

What we need to make big HP? Fuel and air ==> fuel 2xCP3 is good for 1200 HP, now you need a nice turbo combination to get the air in to make the power.

Good to see you back here Volker...I was hoping you would see this thread! :D :cool:

Ben

Kyle, please tell me what the differences is between a mechanical Injection System Horsepower and the HPCR Horsepower and why we will never see that power bt HPCR?????????



HP is HP, I didn't say anything about HP.

I guess here is somebody ignorant :eek:
Agreed

Why can't Cummins' ECM be cracked

Why can't Cummins' ECM be cracked


we don't read chinese :eek:

.:rolleyes:

we don't read chinese :eek:
:funnypost

This is far from a new Idea. This is how diesel tractor pullers and Cummins truck pullers have been getting it done in the top classes of pulling.[/quote]

This is what I like to read :D :D :D !! Here I thought maybe I was on a totally different page than others out there. Glad to see that I'm not.

This is far from a new Idea. This is how diesel tractor pullers and Cummins truck pullers have been getting it done in the top classes of pulling.

This is what I like to read :D :D :D !! Here I thought maybe I was on a totally different page than others out there. Glad to see that I'm not.[/quote]

Just tryin to think outside the box(HPCR) !!!

we don't read chinese :eek:


That is friggin funny.

Ben, you can play with EFI Live, we will play with the mechanical and will meet ya at the track. :D I mean everyone thinks Nasty Girl is the greatest thing ever, and I respect him for his time and efforts to make it to where he is at, but like smokin 4 u said, we try to go out on a limb, and get slammed for it???? :wtf1: Again, everyone has an opinion, but we do not want to wait 2 to 3 years, so we are going to try it.............. Johnboy I love your avatar!!!!

Why did diesels(ford powerstroke 1995) get popular,for there..1 speed...2.... power...3....torque. That was the new age of diesels. "ELECTRONIC" Only has gotten better w/time.

why????

do you think a mechanically injected diesel is easier to make power out of than an electronic duramax??? EFILive??? Plug something in and type some numbers on a keyboard? :)

You are creating so many head aches that are not necessary. If you think swapping an electronic dmax into an old vehicle is expensive, I cant even imagine how much it would cost in R&D to make a mechanically injected duramax.

You are going around texas to get to new hampshire from connecticut ;)

Honestly, the reason the P7100 is used in high HP apps is because people have been modding it for 20 years and know what works and what doesnt. People have just started (in comparison) to mess with electronic diesels. The possibilities with HPCR are endless and infinitely variable. In 5 years as people continue to develop computer tuning, IMHO you will see mechanical injection fade away. There is no advantage to it that I can see. HPCR can do everything it does and SO much more.

Remember the P7100 is fixed timing. What you set it at when you install it is what you're stuck at. How inconvinient is that? You need timing to make power. But that means keeping that same timing * at idle. Good luck starting (withOUT 5 cans of ether) a mechanical pump'd diesel at 20* of timing. Not feasible for a daily driver in the slightest.

electronics can adjust stuff in 30 seconds, have switchable on the fly tunes, and complete control of everything.


Actually, since I am very familiar with the cummins and had a 12 valve in my ford, I think I can comment on a mech. injection pump. Why do people still build big drag cars that have carbuerators on them. EFI (not EFI live) had came out in the early 80's and is much more efficient? One reason, it's simple, and the design is almost flawless. I guess I'll have to eat my words when it happens, but I can build a 1500+hp cummins engine with a p7100 with 1300 cc's of fuel that multiple big turbos can't clear up. Haven't seen a duramax do that yet. While I agree, that punching buttons on a laptop is easier, it's more easy mechanically to tweak a pump. (I.e. delivery valves, bigger plungers/barrels, etc) The reason the 12valve truck is so desireable is that it is relatively easy to swap into any vehicle, because of lack of electronics. I had 25 degrees of timing, and it was a perfect 500 hp street truck. And would start easily, all year round. (no ether, etc) So far, from owning and building both trucks, the cummins motor still prevails as far as reliability and longevity. (even when adding horsepower) With the head O-ringed and studded, and valve springs upgraded...I could free rev the other wise stock internal truck to 5500rpm. (this was with a 5K governor spring that I made myself) I don't think the duramax would do that. The V style motor is still goverened under the laws of physics and isn't as efficient as an inline motor when it comes to durability and longevity. Seen many 12 valve trucks with over 500K miles and the cylinder walls look brand new. Not trying to brag on the cummins engine, because I love the ride I have now. Wouldn't trade it for anything. This truck rides 20 times better than an old ford leaf sprung truck could ever hope to be.

Here is my take on it FWIW. We have just scratched the surface with the HPCR. The old cummins has 1 thing going for it, r&d. They had to build injectors to make power, they had to research and try different turbos to make power and they had to play with injection pumps to make power. The duramax does not need different injectors at 700 rwhp. Stock CP3 good for 550 - 600 rwhp, 2 cp3's good for 1100 - 1200 rwhp, and what about 3 CP3's we will find out. There are some issues to work out like pistons and then the next weakest link, but make no mistake the duramax will make BIG power. Look at Nasty Girls boost to make over 1000 rwhp it was VERY low compared to a cummins making the same power. We have a good breathing engine.
Making the power is not the problem.

I dont think that day is coming... This engine will be struggling to live at the power levels that the cummins can take.

I dont think that day is coming... This engine will be struggling to live at the power levels that the cummins can take.

Why do you say??:eek:

Use 2 camshaft driven 4 cylinder P pumps (denso) off of a B3.9 Cummins.

then mod them with a GSK Kit, 0 plate and AFC slid full forward, P&B's , LCDV's etc

Injectors might be a SOB though. You would have to gut some stock bodies and find a mechanical that will fit and seal into the head, unless you started with LLY heads.

Why can't Cummins' ECM be cracked


It has been. Trouble is the CAN BUS is not the central interface between Chryco and Cummins electronics. VanAaken is trying, one person I know has done it, but so far no word on an EFI type kit ..... yet

You cant touch the Cummins power making ability look at all the modified sledpullers and dyno busters. Too bad it comes in a Dodge

You cant touch the Cummins power making ability look at all the modified sledpullers and dyno busters. Too bad it comes in a Dodge

I don't drive a Dodge, I Pilot a Cummins!:D

I tried to enter the show n shine as the 'ugliest chevy'

too bad there were so many other ugly chev's to choose from!:p:

but I can build a 1500+hp cummins engine with a p7100 with 1300 cc's of fuel that multiple big turbos can't clear up.

thats great, but so what? The duramax engine itself will not live at that power level. So why should we even bother converting a dmax to mechanical?

25* timing on a street truck????? How is it in the winter? :eek:

Do you personnaly know how long a duramax will live at 5500+ rpm without all the low end torque?

Do you personnaly know how to get a duramax to spin 5500+ with HPCR?

Think some of you(coughBencough) are missing another point......right now it wouldnt be terribly difficult IMO to put a P pump on a duramax. It is very hard for most of the guys around here to develop a standalone controler and some 1 off OS to run it. Will the day come when the electronics can support it? Probably pretty soon. But for a guy that wants his truck ready for next season its a question of witch can he get on there and the bugs worked out.

HPCR is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Technology is the greatest. All the world will converter to HPCR. Bow down to the mighty CP3 :blahblah: Problem is something needs to be done NOW. Now will some smart guys get together and figure out the HPCR stuff in time ;) Maybe/hopefully ;) But is it going to be done with the stock brain and tunned with EFI live? NOPE, so quit waving the EFI Live true street truck flag becasue most the guys in here dont give a rats ass in terms of this discussion :p:

Do you personnaly know how long a duramax will live at 5500+ rpm without all the low end torque?

Do you personnaly know how to get a duramax to spin 5500+ with HPCR?

Think some of you(coughBencough) are missing another point......right now it wouldnt be terribly difficult IMO to put a P pump on a duramax. It is very hard for most of the guys around here to develop a standalone controler and some 1 off OS to run it. Will the day come when the electronics can support it? Probably pretty soon. But for a guy that wants his truck ready for next season its a question of witch can he get on there and the bugs worked out.

HPCR is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Technology is the greatest. All the world will converter to HPCR. Bow down to the mighty CP3 :blahblah: Problem is something needs to be done NOW. Now will some smart guys get together and figure out the HPCR stuff in time ;) Maybe/hopefully ;) But is it going to be done with the stock brain and tunned with EFI live? NOPE, so quit waving the EFI Live true street truck flag becasue most the guys in here dont give a rats ass in terms of this discussion :p:

I am not bashing or calling anyone out here just stating my opinion.

I think you and some others in here are the ones missing the point. The existing HPCR system will make more power than the motor will hold. Developement needs to be in mechanical issues with motor first and R&D with turbos and injectors then IF the HPCR hits this "wall" that so many think is there then do something with a mechanical fuel system.

That said, if someone just wants to do it fine, but don't say your doing it because you cannot make power with HPCR. If its RPM's that are the concern then spend the money on a stand alone controller or something of that nature. It is possible to do the rpm's you are talking about it will just take some R&D.

I am not bashing or calling anyone out here just stating my opinion.

I think you and some others in here are the ones missing the point. The existing HPCR system will make more power than the motor will hold. Developement needs to be in mechanical issues with motor first and R&D with turbos and injectors then IF the HPCR hits this "wall" that so many think is there then do something with a mechanical fuel system.

That said, if someone just wants to do it fine, but don't say your doing it because you cannot make power with HPCR. If its RPM's that are the concern then spend the money on a stand alone controller or something of that nature. It is possible to do the rpm's you are talking about it will just take some R&D.

:exactly:

The main issue thats driving this is RPM. Its real easy to say "just spend the $ on the R&D and get a stand alone controler". Someone that wants to have a truck pulling next season has to make a choice on what will get them were they want to be. Have you looked into getting a stand alone controller or making the HPCR work? Its not going to be easy, quick or cheap. Not that a p pumped duramax will be easy.....but I bet there are alot more people that could do that than do the required R&D for a HPCR truck. The HPCR stuff may get worked out in time. We shall see though ;) :D

My post wasnt realy aimed at anyone other then Ben. I like getting him riled up :D

WHat about that company that is making the marine duramax packages? Do they not have a stand alone controller? Has anyone asked them about RPM's? I talked briefly with them at the SF, but I don't remember.

Check bosch motorsports, they have ecu's capable of fueling to whatever RPM you desire.
Or you could p-pump it and take a step backwards:rolleyes:

To get higher rpm, the electronic is not the problem, it is the mechanic (in my case :D ). To get the engine so good balanced, injector balanced to keep the engine together. Here a list of other mechanical problems when we get over 500 HP:

cracked pistons
injector failure (LB7) not dependent on HP
bended rods
valves hits pistons
melted pistons
RPRV blow up
etc.

That shows me that the R&D has to be done on the mechanical side to get the big numbers. Price compared mechanical to electrical is, that the electronic is much cheaper to get a new brain on the engine. But don't forget the engine is just so good how the owner takes care and tune it the right way, you can have the best modified engine and blow it up in a second :D.

The mechanical side of the HPCR is perfect for your application (Drag and Pull), don't think there will be a better product coming out the next few years. The new Bosch Generation G3/4 is the piezzo controlled system and has more problem as the LB7:D , The advantage from the piezzo is, that it will open and close the needle faster which decreases the NOx's and CO's thats all.

But I'm sure, there will be a solution soon to increases the rpm's to decrease the cylinder pressure and get closer to the Cummins engine.

Prost :beerchug:

But is it going to be done with the stock brain and tunned with EFI live? NOPE, so quit waving the EFI Live true street truck flag becasue most the guys in here dont give a rats ass in terms of this discussion :p:

Im gonna hold you to that phil. :p:

LBZ ECM has the brain power to do it. Ross and Paul WILL find a way thru programming around the LBZ RPM limit. There is a ghetto way to do it now if you do some snooping around in EFILive.

I hate to be the one to say it,but some of you think electronics and going forward it the cats *****,but simple fact it what's better? I've done a D-Max motor swap once already and that alone made me wish it didn't have electronics. Sure I love EFI but there's nothing like a P7100 and probably never will be. Even tractors are getting to modernized and the dealers are starting to cuss them.
I say more power to whoever can make a P7100 fueled D-Max :D .

So because electronic motors have alot of plugs and stuff that looks really confusing, a p-pump is definitly better. LONG LIVE THE CARBEURATOR!
The reason we are touting hpcr systems is because they really are that much more efficient. With the ability to set fueling and timing wherever you want at whatever RPM you want there is no way a mechanical pump can compete.
Look at the size of turbos people are putting on CR street trucks and they are still streetable! Lets see you do that with the mighty p-pump.
The p-pump has its place and that is on a mod truck, and even that is probably going to change once we can get a CR engine to rev to 6000 and live.

So because electronic motors have alot of plugs and stuff that looks really confusing, a p-pump is definitly better. LONG LIVE THE CARBEURATOR!
The reason we are touting hpcr systems is because they really are that much more efficient. With the ability to set fueling and timing wherever you want at whatever RPM you want there is no way a mechanical pump can compete.
Look at the size of turbos people are putting on CR street trucks and they are still streetable! Lets see you do that with the mighty p-pump.
The p-pump has its place and that is on a mod truck, and even that is probably going to change once we can get a CR engine to rev to 6000 and live.


:exactly:

:exactly:
So because electronic motors have alot of plugs and stuff that looks really confusing, a p-pump is definitly better. LONG LIVE THE CARBEURATOR!
The reason we are touting hpcr systems is because they really are that much more efficient. With the ability to set fueling and timing wherever you want at whatever RPM you want there is no way a mechanical pump can compete.
Look at the size of turbos people are putting on CR street trucks and they are still streetable! Lets see you do that with the mighty p-pump.
The p-pump has its place and that is on a mod truck, and even that is probably going to change once we can get a CR engine to rev to 6000 and live.

LONG LIVE THE CARBEURATOR!


:lol2: :funnypost

All hail the Rochester!

So because electronic motors have alot of plugs and stuff that looks really confusing, a p-pump is definitly better. LONG LIVE THE CARBEURATOR!
The reason we are touting hpcr systems is because they really are that much more efficient. With the ability to set fueling and timing wherever you want at whatever RPM you want there is no way a mechanical pump can compete.
Look at the size of turbos people are putting on CR street trucks and they are still streetable! Lets see you do that with the mighty p-pump.
The p-pump has its place and that is on a mod truck, and even that is probably going to change once we can get a CR engine to rev to 6000 and live.

I agree, and we got efi boy Ben agreeing.....but obviously he is missing the point. Point is we arnt talking about a daily driver or a hot street truck. Point is if a guy wants to build a truck that will spin and wants to build it NOW its going to be pretty freaking hard to do. Right now you have to know who to talk to and hope they can work out the bugs and get you a functioning brain. Right now there are guys that put P pumps on powerchickens.

If its so easy to just do the R&D and make it happen then why dont some of you guys do it or tell us specifics how to do it or who to contact and stop flapping your gums :p: Not aimed at you Volker and your insight is always enlightening ;) :D

There is a ghetto way to do it now if you do some snooping around in EFILive.

Aww hell I will go there......Please swing over to the custom tunning forum and tell us all how easy it is to just get rid of that pesky defule. Show us how easy it is to just getto rig it so its just not there anymore. Lotsa guys are fighting with it and your insight would be realyy appreciated :D

Did anybody see the results from scheids?
Just curious cause I don't remember seeing a p-pump truck take it.

pretty sure maybe that Martin's truck isn't common rail, or Eriks, or Kents, or Curts, or Ingrams, or any truck entered in modified class at all for that matter.

A common rail truck won 1 out of 4 Classes hmm.

Did anybody see the results from scheids?
Just curious cause I don't remember seeing a p-pump truck take it.


Actually all top ten trucks were P pumped in the Pro Street class. Like I said before, this truck isn't meant for the street class!

I'd go with duel Dominators then. :rolleyes:

pretty sure maybe that Martin's truck isn't common rail, or Eriks, or Kents, or Curts, or Ingrams, or any truck entered in modified class at all for that matter.

A common rail truck won 1 out of 4 Classes hmm.

Um RPM, duh! :D

This is the only thing holding it back, right?

Cut that loose and I say the PP goes bye-bye in a year or two.

I'll try again to drag it out of you what you see in a PP that CR won't do (given free reign on rpm).

I'll try again to drag it out of you what you see in a PP that CR won't do (given free reign on rpm).

We do NOT have free reign of RPM. This is why they want the PP. Give us the rpm and the pp will not go on.

We do NOT have free reign of RPM. This is why they want the PP. Give us the rpm and the pp will not go on.

I think that's what he was saying Roger :D

I think that's what he was saying Roger :D

Should have read his post better:duh: :shootself

Should have read his post better:duh: :shootself

Yeah ya damn farmboy ):h Caintcha reed? :D LOL!

Hey if somehow I make it out to Hicksville, can I drive that one in your avatar?

Hey if somehow I make it out to Hicksville, can I drive that one in your avatar?


You can drive it all you want

We do NOT have free reign of RPM. This is why they want the PP. Give us the rpm and the pp will not go on.

I'm not being a smart ass at all but I'm pretty sure its been posted in here how to get as many RPMs as you want and while it may be expensive (to use a completely different brain to control the truck) I'd be willing to be it'll be FAR cheaper than converting over to mechanical injection.

I believe Bosch Motorsports was mentioned and I'm thinking there is at least another stand alone controller available that can "call the shots" at RPMs in excess of anything you'd want or be able to turn. Talk to last year's points mod class points champion about it. ;) He's the one that told me about it.


Bottom line is, capabilities for turning more than 5000 RPMs is available as far as computer controls goes on the Duramax so that isn't that great of an argument for leaning toward going with a mechanical engine IMO. Its still fine to do a mechanical engine if you want, the reasoning just should be different, even if its "just because I want to."


C-ya

Nathan, I just dont get it. I think the WS results show clearly that the common rail is supperior for your application. Also how are you going to drive this truck daily or start it in the winter? :rolleyes:

Everyone here will agree that the CR when the RPM issue is fixed will be better. Problem is no one has said how exactly to fix it. If someone would post up were exactly to purchase the electronics it would help many members and I'm sure all this talk of putting a p pump on a duramax would dissapear.

You can drive it all you want

Great! Screw truck pulling! Let's go get that thing stuck somwhere ):h

As for the standalone, I've heard a few things and from what I gather, it's not gonna be for the masses any time soon. Maybe for a '08 SS or Mod class puller truck with a manual and drop box, that kind of thing, yeah.

However, I would be thrilled to be proven wrong. :D

If a standalone was to surface put me first in line for one!:D Then Nasty could install her new mods for more power. Been waitin for this one.....hehehe! Is there more left in the Dmax on fuel? Oh ya baby!!! ;)

Well maybe Volker will chime back in and say whether or not they'll have an Allison interface in the near future....

Everyone here will agree that the CR when the RPM issue is fixed will be better. Problem is no one has said how exactly to fix it. If someone would post up were exactly to purchase the electronics it would help many members and I'm sure all this talk of putting a p pump on a duramax would dissapear.

Should I make an end for this??? I was talking with my contract company in Germany today and we are developing a new stand alone controller for the D-max. It is my third project for the D-max, first a stand alone for a Marine D-max, high performance nozzles for the LLY, and now the stand alone Truck ECU, so I know the engine completely.BUT It TAKES TIME AND PLEASE DON'T PM ME WITH QUESTION, WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT I WILL ANNOUNCE IT!!! I'm working on the specification like, whether I use stock sensors or replace them with high performance parts etc. It is in work but like I sad, it takes time!!!

I will do that Project on the side, because I will go for the ECU company to China and the support work for a two Chinese Customers and will be traveling a lot thrue the world in the next few months.

HAVE PATIENT AND DON'T DO THE STEP BACK WORDS TO THE P-PUMP -:t and believe in the new technology

Prost :beerchug:

Well maybe Volker will chime back in and say whether or not they'll have an Allison interface in the near future....
No Allison interface, she is not strong enough to keep the power.

No Allison interface, she is not strong enough to keep the power.

Very true my friend! ;)

Volker PM me if ya need someone to test that bad boy ! ;)

No Allison interface, she is not strong enough to keep the power.

...which means it's gonna be fantastic for the few who can actually use it.

Guess I better start saving up for an SCS :eek:

Volker, none of my posts were aimed at you :) I figured you of all people would have an idea on when we might expect something ;)

I know it takes time and alot of work to complete a project like this:) Hopefully you can work through all the development bugs and get something to Nathan and Seth so they dont have to go old skool on ya :D

Volker, none of my posts were aimed at you :) I figured you of all people would have an idea on when we might expect something ;)

I know it takes time and alot of work to complete a project like this:) Hopefully you can work through all the development bugs and get something to Nathan and Seth so they dont have to go old skool on ya :D
There's alot going on in the back ground but somethings need to happen for some .Some lead,follow,or get passed by that wont happen here.If he was a flag the wind blows differently daily after more data is recieved.Time will tell....

Volker

I am all in for the ECM. As I already do not have an Allison. Just let me know when ready I would love to try it.

Will it run LB7 injectors? LLY only?

On all: I'm kind surprised and disapointed. 11 month ago I came out with great injector nozzles wich increases HP and efficiency. Everybody liked my idea and everybody who has them are satisfied. A few peaple purchased my nozzles but I overinvested in the nozzles and in the DIY Dual CP3 kit, which everybody wants them but like I sad I overinvested in my products and now I'm broke.
This would be an other big project with a lot of investment I have to do and will do, but it takes time because I do that on the side with the new job out in China.

Here some features:
RPM: 6000
Pre Injection - 3000 rpm
24V battery (2x12V)
Glow plugs relais controlled
2x CP3 controlled
CAN Bus J1939 display available
EGT controlled (safety)
Laptop community inclusive CAN-doungle and Software for adjustment by flight available
no VGT controller
no Allison integration
etc...

Made you hungry???

BTW: I got a lot of phone calls last week from a few guys here. I will tell everybody the same and treat everybody the same. I'm a nice guy (I hope so :D ) and I will that everybody is succesfull and satisfied. When I have news and more infos I will post it, also send me an e-mail with the subject D-max ECM (volker@mde.cc)I will send some newsletter every 2 weeks. Thanks guys.

I will tell everybody the same and treat everybody the same. I'm a nice guy (I hope so :D ) and I will that everybody is succesfull and satisfied.

And here I thought you talked to me becasue I'm one of the cool guys, now your saying your nice to everyone? ):h

Good luck with the project Volker :) Keep us posted :cool:

And here I thought you talked to me becasue I'm one of the cool guys, now your saying your nice to everyone? ):hI thought someone had already given you the bad news? Now I feel bad for not telling you earlier :p:

And here I thought you talked to me becasue I'm one of the cool guys, now your saying your nice to everyone? ):h

I thought I was the cool guy last week also;) Got to get the super street/ mod truck started!! Volkert's going to have some RPM's for me:thumb: :ro)

Very true my friend! ;)

Volker PM me if ya need someone to test that bad boy ! ;)


Stand in line Nasty, Truck Pullers first Dyno Queens second!:lol:

Stand in line Nasty, Truck Pullers first Dyno Queens second!:lol:

:funnypost

The cp3 do not like high rmp's,this is one area that you need to look at. :eek: biger springs on the piston in the pump or 3 pumps at lower rpm's ???

The cp3 do not like high rmp's,this is one area that you need to look at. :eek: biger springs on the piston in the pump or 3 pumps at lower rpm's ???


You read my mind!;)

Dyno queen? How many HARD miles have you put on a 1000+ RWHP dmax.......ummmmmmm oh ya none!!! Guess what I have 15,000+ no dyno queen here baby! :D :D :D

One of the main reasons I never got into drag racing or pulling much cause both sides think they are da shizzit! :)

The cp3 do not like high rmp's,this is one area that you need to look at. :eek: biger springs on the piston in the pump or 3 pumps at lower rpm's ???

That is one option but why not run a bigger pully as to not overdrive the CP3's at 6000 RPM? But if you run 3 CP3's your wife might kill you if ya lose the Air Cond. :D

That is one option but why not run a bigger pully as to not overdrive the CP3's at 6000 RPM? But if you run 3 CP3's your wife might kill you if ya lose the Air Cond. :D


A/C is already gone. Shipped it to Chicago last week.:D 3 CP3s underdriven should give you the volume and the pressure for less money or work than a modded pump and be reilable. Cummins guys tried the hyperdrive overdrive gizmo remember how well the pumps liked that.:eek:

CP3.4 will fix it all. Run it underdrive and you'll still have gobs of fuel and less headaches than 3 pumps.

And people thought we were nuts when we put two on.....

One of the main reasons I never got into drag racing or pulling much cause both sides think they are da shizzit! :)

Correction. Pulling and drag racing guys are the shizznit! ):h

CP3.4 will fix it all. Run it underdrive and you'll still have gobs of fuel and less headaches than 3 pumps.


Brayden how much more does it flow than our trucks' CP3.3's??

same size? bolt-on??

Brayden how much more does it flow than our trucks' CP3.3's??

same size? bolt-on??


MAN Diesels have used that pump for a while.

Not bolt on from what I have seen unless there is another configuration of the pump that I am not aware of.

correction. Pulling and drag racing guys are the shizznit! ):h lol!!

Industrial injection sells them...they claim a 240% increase. Definetly not a simple bolt on.

CP3.4 has a internal oil lubrication in it, you have to bring pressuriezed oil in the system. Not really a bolt on pattern.

Dyno queen? How many HARD miles have you put on a 1000+ RWHP dmax.......ummmmmmm oh ya none!!! Guess what I have 15,000+ no dyno queen here baby! :D :D :D

One of the main reasons I never got into drag racing or pulling much cause both sides think they are da shizzit! :)


So, driving around town terrorizing the local moose population is the shizznit? :rolleyes:




:D I'll never understand Canucks :D

Industrial injection sells them...they claim a 240% increase. Definetly not a simple bolt on.

That, and the price is like stoopid.

Ok we can get all the fuel we want to the injectors. But how much can we get to flow through them? How many cc's? The people I have been talking to think they will not handle the volume some of us pulling guys are going to need. before you say Nasty girl made 1000 Hp how much more do you need. We are talking ALOT more!!! Any help on the flow would be greatly appreciated

Bigger pumps are for bigger engines which are slower in RPM's, that means the max RPM of the pump goes down to keep the durability. Normaly the CR pumps running cam shaft RPM's which the CP3.4 is designed for.

RPM is NOT the only reason common rail will not be used on competitive mod trucks.

Slick setup there..

i think ive seen that engine a time or two:D :ro) :bling: :bow: :driver: :hail: :rocking: :RockOn: :thumb: :Whoa: :chevy:

RPM is NOT the only reason common rail will not be used on competitive mod trucks.

So WHAT are the udder reasons, there, Mr. Red Rocket Pilot? :D



I'm gonna guess that Roger has hit the nail on the head....the body of the injector is too small and too long to get massive quantities of fuel down where we need it?

with the rumored rule changes coming in the DHRA mod class I wouldn't waste time thinkng about using an engine out of a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup in a mod class pulling truck

I'm gonna guess that Roger has hit the nail on the head....the body of the injector is too small and too long to get massive quantities of fuel down where we need it?

The injector body or length has nothing to do with the flow specification of the injector. The weak point is the nozzle to get enough fuel with the right atomization in the cylinder also the right spray angle. The current injector tip has a spray angle from 157 degrees which is really flat (see my avatar). You need a new configuration of the nozzle for performance use. I had a design (Rodger knows) a 2 bank 12 holes nozzle with different spray angle for advanced injection timing to hit the piston bowl by advanced timing like 30 - 40 degrees BTDC. Don't forget ==> Better atomization is a better effeciency of the engine. I know you guys talking about high performance, but even there it is important to have the engine right adjusted for the best efficiency, that you might have enough fuel for the HP you want. I see the P-pump delivers up to 1300 cc per shot. When we take the stock D-max injector 100cc ==> 310 HP LB7 with same timing, efficiency and calculate up:

200cc ==> 620 HP
300cc ==> 930 HP
400cc ==> 1240 HP
500cc ==> 1550 HP
1000cc ==> 3100 HP
1300cc ==> 4010 HP

The Dodge get with the P-pump arround 1200 HP and up, that tells me the efficiency is really bad which goes in unburned fuel (black smoke and high EGT's) which helps to blow up the engine pretty fast. So a design of good injectors tips and a good fuel system which survive the high RPM's helps you further as just "squirt" the fuel in.

I just want to help you to understand the fuel delivery system and more fuel is not lineal to more power

Prost :beerchug:

OK, Volker, if I understand you correctly then, you believe our injectors, with the right nozzles, will flow enough fuel for 1500 HP?

In your opinion, what's the limitation of HPCR that Kyle keeps hinting at?

with the rumored rule changes coming in the DHRA mod class I wouldn't waste time thinkng about using an engine out of a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup in a mod class pulling truck

I heard that too. 8.3+ Cummins, Cats, whatnot...

stock D-max injector 100cc ==> 310 HP LB7 with same timing, efficiency and calculate up:

200cc ==> 620 HP
300cc ==> 930 HP
400cc ==> 1240 HP
500cc ==> 1550 HP
1000cc ==> 3100 HP
1300cc ==> 4010 HP




This something I have always been curious about.
Being raised around diesels with mechanical injection pumps I was always used to people talking about the cc's of fuel something is getting.
So how much fuel is a typical "tuning only" 500hp duramax running?
Just for comparison sake I have always wondered.

OK, Volker, if I understand you correctly then, you believe our injectors, with the right nozzles, will flow enough fuel for 1500 HP?

In your opinion, what's the limitation of HPCR that Kyle keeps hinting at?
Yes, I know you will have enough flow with the stock injector with new designed and modified nozzles.

I don't know why Kyle think a HPCR engine is not competitive. But I respect his opinion and who knows, he might brews something together???:cool:

This something I have always been curious about.
Being raised around diesels with mechanical injection pumps I was always used to people talking about the cc's of fuel something is getting.
So how much fuel is a typical "tuning only" 500hp duramax running?
Just for comparison sake I have always wondered.

Depends on your mods, arround 160 - 170 cc per shot

I must be stupid or reading this wrong, but the entire combustion chamber is less than 160 cc. The bowl itself is only what, 47 cc area?

Do you mean cubic mm? Or is the 160 cc per unit time or something?

Help!

I must be stupid or reading this wrong, but the entire combustion chamber is less than 160 cc. The bowl itself is only what, 47 cc area?

Do you mean cubic mm? Or is the 160 cc per unit time or something?

Help!

Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cmm Quibic Millimeter of course ==> 160 - 170 cmm :D

Volker cmm is the same as mm3 correct?

yep cmm or mm3 are the same, sorry for confusion :o:

Thanks Volker....I was starting to think I had lost my mind there...

So when guys talk about a "750 cc" P-pump, do they mean 750 mm3?

750cc total output per pump crank. 125cc per cylinder. 1250 mm3 per cylinder.

Thanks Volker....I was starting to think I had lost my mind there...

So when guys talk about a "750 cc" P-pump, do they mean 750 mm3?

750cc total output per pump crank. 125cc per cylinder. 1250 mm3 per cylinder.

I follow the 750 cc / 6 = 125 cc...but I don't follow the rest.

1 cc = 10^3 mm3 = 1000 mm3

Sorry, I'm just missing something, but I don't have my head screwed on at all today.

Your right, I'm wrong.

I was out in the shop just now and 750 cc is an obnoxious amount of fuel. That's like 3 cups!!


I follow the 750 cc / 6 = 125 cc...but I don't follow the rest.

1 cc = 10^3 mm3 = 1000 mm3

Sorry, I'm just missing something, but I don't have my head screwed on at all today.

I was out in the shop just now and 750 cc is an obnoxious amount of fuel. That's like 3 cups!!

Sounds like the recipie for superior smoke heightness! ):h

Now we are getting some where:D Thanks for all the comments and answers. Keep them coming!! So for a 1500 HP motor we need what size of injector? Also will they be able to fire quick enough at 6,000 RPM?

Your right, I'm wrong.

I was out in the shop just now and 750 cc is an obnoxious amount of fuel. That's like 3 cups!!

Yeah, there'd be no space between the drops :D

Glug glug glug!


Once upon a time I was told, "it's just fuel and air," i.e., you can talk head porting and valves and all that, but to make 1500 HP it's instructive to just see how much fuel and air it actually is....a LOT more than where we are now!

May favorite Kyle quote of all time: "you mean you guys are STILL under 1000 hp?" ):h

Sounds like the recipie for superior smoke heightness! ):h

Flame out the stack is for 30' so I have heard!:D

A stock LB7 injector can deliver tons of fuel if you leave it on long enough and there is lies the problem. At 1800 bar pressure you need ~ 2700 us to deliver 200 mm3 of fuel. A LLY nozzle needs ~3100 us for the same fuel delivery. That is going to limit your engine speed to about 4300 RPM as above that your way past doing any good with the fuel in the cylinder. The truth is above 3500 RPM your EGT's are going through the roof already! So first you need to figure out the new amount of fuel needed and the time in which it needs to be put in. Then we can figure out the proper injection flow needed to support it. After the injector and fuel delivery system is in place you then have to deal with the heat it's going to make and that's no small task in itself.

So if your looking for 6000 RPM your going to need a much bigger injector than most would think to get the fuel into the cylinder at the right time.

Yeah, there'd be no space between the drops :D

Glug glug glug!


Once upon a time I was told, "it's just fuel and air," i.e., you can talk head porting and valves and all that, but to make 1500 HP it's instructive to just see how much fuel and air it actually is....a LOT more than where we are now!

May favorite Kyle quote of all time: "you mean you guys are STILL under 1000 hp?" ):h

Was watching NHRA a couple weekends ago. The announcers were babbling as per usual, and then something caught my ear: It takes just under 15 gallons of fuel for one top fuel/funny car run. About 5 of that is for the actual 1/4 mile pass. They stuff so much fuel and air into the cylinders that they are on the verge of hydro-lock the entire run. Talk about no space between the drops!:eek:

That my friends is "fueling" :D

A stock LB7 injector can deliver tons of fuel if you leave it on long enough and there is lies the problem. At 1800 bar pressure you need ~ 2700 us to deliver 200 mm3 of fuel. A LLY nozzle needs ~3100 us for the same fuel delivery. That is going to limit your engine speed to about 4300 RPM as above that your way past doing any good with the fuel in the cylinder. The truth is above 3500 RPM your EGT's are going through the roof already!

Thanks for that piece of info Steve!

Was watching NHRA a couple weekends ago. The announcers were babbling as per usual, and then something caught my ear: It takes just under 15 gallons of fuel for one top fuel/funny car run. About 5 of that is for the actual 1/4 mile pass. They stuff so much fuel and air into the cylinders that they are on the verge of hydro-lock the entire run. Talk about no space between the drops!:eek:

That my friends is "fueling" :D

As a avid drag racer and crew chief of the family Pro-Mod, i can vouch for that! Top fuelers prob 12 inj in the blower hat 2 in the blower case, 2 in each intake runner and 2 under the valve cover that spray right on the intake valve, Thats 46 injectors!!!

We had a mis adjusted barrel valve on our alcohol burning pro-mod once. It idled for about 3-4 min and it burned nearly 15 GALLONS of alky!!! We dont have near the fuel sys of a T/F :eek:

The injector body or length has nothing to do with the flow specification of the injector. The weak point is the nozzle to get enough fuel with the right atomization in the cylinder also the right spray angle. The current injector tip has a spray angle from 157 degrees which is really flat (see my avatar). You need a new configuration of the nozzle for performance use. I had a design (Rodger knows) a 2 bank 12 holes nozzle with different spray angle for advanced injection timing to hit the piston bowl by advanced timing like 30 - 40 degrees BTDC. Don't forget ==> Better atomization is a better effeciency of the engine. I know you guys talking about high performance, but even there it is important to have the engine right adjusted for the best efficiency, that you might have enough fuel for the HP you want. I see the P-pump delivers up to 1300 cc per shot. When we take the stock D-max injector 100cc ==> 310 HP LB7 with same timing, efficiency and calculate up:

200cc ==> 620 HP
300cc ==> 930 HP
400cc ==> 1240 HP
500cc ==> 1550 HP
1000cc ==> 3100 HP
1300cc ==> 4010 HP

The Dodge get with the P-pump arround 1200 HP and up, that tells me the efficiency is really bad which goes in unburned fuel (black smoke and high EGT's) which helps to blow up the engine pretty fast. So a design of good injectors tips and a good fuel system which survive the high RPM's helps you further as just "squirt" the fuel in.

I just want to help you to understand the fuel delivery system and more fuel is not lineal to more power

Prost :beerchug:
Say what you want, but it all goes back to effiency. DuratotheMax. Ouch.

Time'll tell.

DHRA is gay .....8.3 cummins...why doesn't DHRA santion Semi's....C15 cats....in a pickup ...come on. Talk about blurring the line.

IMHO

electronics suck!

How many times has your computer just messed up and you just have to reboot?

How many times has your truck done something wacky just because....electronic glitch or this done this...because some sensor is messed up and told it to????

point blank is.....if you wanna blame the reason your truck isn't pulling good or racing good on electronics....go ahead an play with cp3's an keep a good daily driver, if you want the motor to do the same thing everytime day in an day out on the track go mechanical Inline 8 P7100 would do great at about 6000 rpm on a Duramax.....then when it screws up your to blame not the truck!!!

IMHO

electronics suck!

How many times has your computer just messed up and you just have to reboot?

How many times has your truck done something wacky just because....electronic glitch or this done this...because some sensor is messed up and told it to????

point blank is.....if you wanna blame the reason your truck isn't pulling good or racing good on electronics....go ahead an play with cp3's an keep a good daily driver, if you want the motor to do the same thing everytime day in an day out on the track go mechanical Inline 8 P7100 would do great at about 6000 rpm on a Duramax.....then when it screws up your to blame not the truck!!!


Well, I've never had to 'reboot' my truck! Maybe it's because Bill Gates didn't have anything to do with my ecu :D

And the mechanically injected engines have just as much voodoo to them (if not more), at least the big-time units. Every tractor or truck pull you go to, some mechanically injected vehicle won't run right / can't get off the line / sticks a rack / etc. Far from foolproof.

They make a hell of a lot of fuel but IMHO are just as finicky in a different kind of way.

well said mat!

IMHO

electronics suck!

How many times has your computer just messed up and you just have to reboot?

How many times has your truck done something wacky just because....electronic glitch or this done this...because some sensor is messed up and told it to????

point blank is.....if you wanna blame the reason your truck isn't pulling good or racing good on electronics....go ahead an play with cp3's an keep a good daily driver, if you want the motor to do the same thing everytime day in an day out on the track go mechanical Inline 8 P7100 would do great at about 6000 rpm on a Duramax.....then when it screws up your to blame not the truck!!!


I agree. Its a shame we arent still running Strombergs, Powerglides, and Stanadyne injection pumps; such potential with all of those.

FWIW, Ive never had to reboot my truck either. ;)

And the mechanically injected engines have just as much voodoo to them (if not more), at least the big-time units. Every tractor or truck pull you go to, some mechanically injected vehicle on't run right / can't get off the line / sticks a rack / etc. Far from foolproof.

They make a hell of a lot of fuel but IMHO are just as finicky in a different kind of way.
They can be finicky, but most of the pump problems can be avoided with this (http://www.columbusdieselsupply.com/tp3a.php) little jewel. Or for you Dmax guys they have a non-billet 8cyl version. I believe this is what Kyle is fabbing up for Climax. (http://www.columbusdieselsupply.com/tp3b.php) (at least that's the rumors I'm spreadin'):D

They can be finicky, but most of the pump problems can be avoided with this (http://www.columbusdieselsupply.com/tp3a.php) little jewel. Or for you Dmax guys they have a non-billet 8cyl version. I believe this is what Kyle is fabbing up for Climax. (http://www.columbusdieselsupply.com/tp3b.php) (at least that's the rumors I'm spreadin'):D

How many Cp3's will it take to equal 1 of thoses pumps flow wise?......... :eek:

4

I agree. Its a shame we arent still running Strombergs, Powerglides, and Stanadyne injection pumps; such potential with all of those.

FWIW, Ive never had to reboot my truck either. ;)

Oh yeah, 4l80E's dominate the drag strip and powerglides with thier old school 2 gear technology cant compete in a performance application. :rolleyes:

4

:) Smart man.

Now, the next question, how many rails and of what size?

I realize just about every top fuel dragster runs a slip and slide. My point is that people need to get out of their stuck old ways and realize in 95% of the time, electronics are more ideal, and until someone shows me this mechanical pump'd duramax, Im going to keep flying the HPCR flag.

electronics are more ideal, and until someone shows me this mechanical pump'd duramax, Im going to keep flying the HPCR flag.
I don't disagree that electronics are better most of the time. Especially from a diagnostic or fine tuning standpoint. However you can't beat the simplicity of a mechanical injected diesel. (aside from the actual guts of the pump) If you've got fuel/air and compression you've got fire. The main reason you haven't seen a mechanical Dmax is because of what it would cost. Believe me it's been planned out by someone who could do it, and has done it to other engines. When the Dmax hard parts show they can hold up and make it worth it you may see one. All it takes is money, look at the p-pumped modified powerstroke.

All it takes is money, look at the p-pumped modified powerstroke.

Crazy people, they could have converted it to Common Rail just as easy. What where they thinking?

Kyle......this is Oeder,

yea too bad those old sigmas and Bosch P's are soooo unreliable.........and old school!

I know what they do when everything is right, I know the numbers, for all of you who don't I'm so sorry!

common rail an cp3's are awesome no doubt they have their advantages and disadvantages in both worlds if your going to go 300' on a track mechanical is the way to go IF YOUR GONNA GO BIG!

When and if Kyle ever gets inline 8 on his truck Sigma or a Fast P and gets the bugs worked out........the Dodge boys....Terry, Erik,Kent,Van,Curt......will have work cut out for them.....I know this because we've already talked about it

A P-pump can put out in excess of 17,000 PSI and probably could go to the CP3's 23,000 with a little work. I see no reason a P-pump can't be used to feed the common rail if you strap some electronic controls to it. Best of both worlds.

(mechanical purists around the world cry "Blasphemy!")

With the volume issues taken care of in a single pump, the only thing missing is big honking injectors.

What would you do.....just put all the lines to a single manifold?

wow

Lol;)

A P-pump can put out in excess of 17,000 PSI and probably could go to the CP3's 23,000 with a little work. I see no reason a P-pump can't be used to feed the common rail if you strap some electronic controls to it. Best of both worlds.

(mechanical purists around the world cry "Blasphemy!")

With the volume issues taken care of in a single pump, the only thing missing is big honking injectors.
Now that is interesting.

What would you do.....just put all the lines to a single manifold?

For the Dmax, three left, three right and a cross over between the rails to keep them equal. Belt driven ala current twin CP3 setups, or if getting fancy, put a gear driven pulley in place of the CP3 and set the pump between the A/C and Alternator.

A driver motor can run the P-pump's throttle similar to how the Fuel Pressure regulator is run on the CP3. (would need to amp up the ECM signal) Response would be different, but could be scaled and adjusted with EFI.

P-pump gets lobotomized. Fuel plate, governor, and AFC all go, or at least get disabled.

:funnypost

I realize just about every top fuel dragster runs a slip and slide. My point is that people need to get out of their stuck old ways and realize in 95% of the time, electronics are more ideal, and until someone shows me this mechanical pump'd duramax, Im going to keep flying the HPCR flag.

Since when did top fuel cars start running glides?

Go back and do some rereading of this thread there cupcake.....your keep missing the point completely on why mechanical injection may be the answer for the short term. It has nothing to do with whats the best in a perfect world.....

Oh....and you are saying that 5% of the time mechanical is better than electronics? Thats kinda a funny statment coming from a guy who also states that electronics and technology is the only way to go ):h

While I'm on it.....I dont see any HPCR duramaxes that are swinging the kinda RPM or making the kinda power that these guys are looking for. Dont see any of the big tractor boys running standalone HPCR either. Do see alot of old skool p pumps though :D Does that mean that HPCR isnt an option to look at?

Anyone except me ever thought of stacking 2 (or more) CP3 bodies together with a common crank/cam shaft? It's kinda smallish in diameter maybe to run several pumps, but maybe 2 would work.

I know, dumb idea :)


on edit: well, shoot, if you're going to do that, why not just make your own damn billet CP9 or whatever...

Anyone except me ever thought of stacking 2 (or more) CP3 bodies together with a common crank/cam shaft? It's kinda smallish in diameter maybe to run several pumps, but maybe 2 would work.

I know, dumb idea :)

that's a good idea if there wasn't a turbo in the way! I was wondering the same myself.:rolleyes:

Turbo doesn't have to stay there. Neither does the cp3.;)

Turbo is a ways back. The Intake manifold is first in line and takes up about 6". Aftermarket turbos sit higher and their intake would be higher than the pump. So if you really wanted to, you could shoe horn a double or triple staked CP3. Don't know how well the common shaft would handle the torque though.

I have a CP3 mounted in the cab with a weedeater motor turning it and thats my throttle too. cp3s dont tend to live long past 10k though :think:

Anyone except me ever thought of stacking 2 (or more) CP3 bodies together with a common crank/cam shaft? It's kinda smallish in diameter maybe to run several pumps, but maybe 2 would work.

I know, dumb idea :)


on edit: well, shoot, if you're going to do that, why not just make your own damn billet CP9 or whatever...

Not a dumb idea, BUT ...

Bosch developed this pump for over 4 Years until she was "perfect" for the automotive application. I developed over 5 Years on a PowerGen CRHP with over 29k PSI fuel pressure for over 5000 hours in durability. You guys think just screw and weld some parts together and it will work. The HPCR Pump is a high tech pump with high strenght steel, heat treatments and coatings, special plane bearings, special flat seals.
Sometimes it makes me sick to hear some opinion to find some solutions about the Common Rail Injectiom Systems.

Back to two CP3-bodies in one ==> doesn't work, you can't assamble it :eek:

Anyway, here a pic of two L890 on each engine on the JCB's Dieselmax record vehicle.

http://www.mde.cc/bla/pump.jpg



Prost :beerchug:

The difference here Volker, is for this application, it only needs to have a proof of concept lifespan. THEN, you can make it reliable for us. After all, you have already plowed the road. Don't you expect people to follow?!

Cool, Volker. What was the rated capacity of the '890?

I know "stacking" CP3s wouldn't work in practice without some crazy machining, but conceptually all it needs is more and bigger cylinders. The operating principle isn't NASA-level stuff.

12-cylinder CP pump :D

This mechanical project is full steam ahead on 4 trucks that I know of, including my own. It may or may not work, but I'm not going to sit around wondering if we will ever compete with the cummins on a higher level. Isn't this the same process that has got the duramax where it is today? It's all about trial and error, and while some are out perfecting the HPCR setup I hope you find time next season to watch a few fellow DP members pulling in the pro stock and modified classes. Good luck to everyone whatever they go with!

I hope it works out for ya.

Is this all gonna be "secret squirrel" or are you going to keep us updated on what you're doing?

I'm guessing getting the pump on is going to be straightforward. What kinda mechanical injectors are you going to use?

Now id just like to throw this out there from what i gather to keep with the electronics you need more fuel in a shorter time correct? Like the injectors cannot flow enough in a short enough time and thats why you want mechanical injection? If thats so why not machine new heads with 2 injectors per cylinder? If im wrong well then so be it.

Now id just like to throw this out there from what i gather to keep with the electronics you need more fuel in a shorter time correct? Like the injectors cannot flow enough in a short enough time and thats why you want mechanical injection? If thats so why not machine new heads with 2 injectors per cylinder? If im wrong well then so be it.
Check #145 and #163 in this thread

There's no room at all for a second injector. Ain't even a lot of room for one with much of a bigger body.

Now id just like to throw this out there from what i gather to keep with the electronics you need more fuel in a shorter time correct? Like the injectors cannot flow enough in a short enough time and thats why you want mechanical injection? If thats so why not machine new heads with 2 injectors per cylinder? If im wrong well then so be it.
Check that out: http://www.buckdiesel.com

Since when did top fuel cars start running glides?

Go back and do some rereading of this thread there cupcake.....your keep missing the point completely on why mechanical injection may be the answer for the short term. It has nothing to do with whats the best in a perfect world.....

Oh....and you are saying that 5% of the time mechanical is better than electronics? Thats kinda a funny statment coming from a guy who also states that electronics and technology is the only way to go ):h

While I'm on it.....I dont see any HPCR duramaxes that are swinging the kinda RPM or making the kinda power that these guys are looking for.

Is that the HPCR system holding it back?......Or is the engine simply out of air at the very high RPM's? You can port the heads all you want, and change cams until your blue in the face, but there is only so many RPM's that your going to get from any given engine.

I also don't think that the diesel tractor pullers run the kinda RPM's that everyone wants to believe.;) My cousin has been dominating the 410 (~6.8l) limited pro class all year, and yes its done with a highly modified P-pump, as well as a ported head, big cam, etc etc, but when you work it hard it likes 3300-3600 RPM the best. The engine just likes that RPM. And yes they have tried several different cams, but they all just seem to run out of stuff after that RPM.




Dont see any of the big tractor boys running standalone HPCR either. Do see alot of old skool p pumps though :D Does that mean that HPCR isnt an option to look at?



HPCR is not allowed in most tractor pulling organizations. They are not allowed to use computers to control anything, just log data.

"I also don't think that the diesel tractor pullers run the kinda RPM's that everyone wants to believe. My cousin has been dominating the 410 (~6.8l) limited pro class all year, and yes its done with a highly modified P-pump, as well as a ported head, big cam, etc etc, but when you work it hard it likes 3300-3600 RPM the best. The engine just likes that RPM. And yes they have tried several different cams, but they all just seem to run out of stuff after that RPM."

That's why it's called 'Limited Pro". If you think the big boys run 3600 rpm down the track, you're gonna be sorely disappointed.

I know that the Hot Farm guy around here are running mid 4000s. The dominate tracotor is rumored to leave at a hair over 5000. A buddy of mine that pulls in this class is simply out of gear with his current pump and tire setup. He has the tallest tires he can fit and often is against the govenor at 150' mark.:eek: More rpm is not for everone but for a manaul trans puller it helps a lot. Autos not so much. But who pulls with that slush box junk anyway?):h

More rpm is not for everone but for a manaul trans puller it helps a lot. Autos not so much. But who pulls with that slush box junk anyway?):h


Aren't you supposed to be out at the track tonight helping one of your fellow shaky-handed pullers?


:D

Nope helping myself tonight. Drinking a cool one in between sniffing paint fumes.;) Red paint of course.:D

....;) Green paint of course.:D

Fixed it for you! ;) :D

You guys are right, the tractors don't run the RPM the trucks do. Ted Sterners 3rd gen dodge with the common rail to P-pump conversion pegged a 6k RPM tach in Hillsboro when he left the line (not that 6k is a good idea but it happens). The trucks willl carry more RPM down the track than most tractors do spooling the chargers. This is also why the trucks tend to have more injection pumps stick than the tractors do, I guess there are down sides to everything.

A P-pump can put out in excess of 17,000 PSI and probably could go to the CP3's 23,000 with a little work. I see no reason a P-pump can't be used to feed the common rail if you strap some electronic controls to it. Best of both worlds.

(mechanical purists around the world cry "Blasphemy!")

With the volume issues taken care of in a single pump, the only thing missing is big honking injectors.
Wow I had to read this post several times and my head still hurts. The common rail pressure issue has been taken care of. Or didn't anyone notice what was in the pic Kyle posted in post #140? Volume and RPM is what needs addressed.

"I also don't think that the diesel tractor pullers run the kinda RPM's that everyone wants to believe. My cousin has been dominating the 410 (~6.8l) limited pro class all year, and yes its done with a highly modified P-pump, as well as a ported head, big cam, etc etc, but when you work it hard it likes 3300-3600 RPM the best. The engine just likes that RPM. And yes they have tried several different cams, but they all just seem to run out of stuff after that RPM."

That's why it's called 'Limited Pro". If you think the big boys run 3600 rpm down the track, you're gonna be sorely disappointed.

Not to be a Smart A$$ but all of the limited pro tractors i know turn 4k+ some even in the 5k range. Limited pro class is also 540CI, single unlimited turbo, And A pumps only no p pumps allowed, Super farms are another story, 640 cubes, 3x3 single charger and p pumps!

"I also don't think that the diesel tractor pullers run the kinda RPM's that everyone wants to believe. My cousin has been dominating the 410 (~6.8l) limited pro class all year, and yes its done with a highly modified P-pump, as well as a ported head, big cam, etc etc, but when you work it hard it likes 3300-3600 RPM the best. The engine just likes that RPM. And yes they have tried several different cams, but they all just seem to run out of stuff after that RPM."

That's why it's called 'Limited Pro". If you think the big boys run 3600 rpm down the track, you're gonna be sorely disappointed.


I know what the "big boys" run. We are nowhere close to being on there level. I have seen the "big boys" push the bottom end of a motor out right through a 1" thick steel girdle. Or blow the engine apart on a pass bad enough to reach in and grab the camshaft and walk away with it.

I used the limited pro class to give an example of what the tractor guys that are limited to 410CI are able to do, very close to the displacement of a duramax.;)

Not to be a Smart A$$ but all of the limited pro tractors i know turn 4k+ some even in the 5k range. Limited pro class is also 540CI, single unlimited turbo, And A pumps only no p pumps allowed, Super farms are another story, 640 cubes, 3x3 single charger and p pumps!

Limited pro in my area is 410CI. Its Twin States, and ECITPA pulling associations. And yes this tractor I was reffering to will easily hit 5200 on the line, sometimes it runs 4000 down the track, (if its an easy track) but if you pick the right gear and make it work, it will run 3500 all the way down the track and spin em like crazy at the end.



Just for sh**s and giggles, anyone know what a ported duramax head flows?

Limited pro in my area is 410CI. Its Twin States, and ECITPA pulling associations. And yes this tractor I was reffering to will easily hit 5200 on the line, sometimes it runs 4000 down the track, (if its an easy track) but if you pick the right gear and make it work, it will run 3500 all the way down the track and spin em like crazy at the end.



flows?

Your right Rules do very from area to area, i just stated rules for this area. The rule i mentioned pretty much cover FPP and Interstate !

Anymore info on this stuff?

Does anybody know how Nathan's project is coming along?

That project is still in the r and d stages. We are not trying to rush into anything at this time. I'm putting the hpcr motor in my truck for this season.