Ive been doing quite a bit of reading and Im a little lost on this subject. Possibly Ive missed the thread that has outlined this or maybe they havent been put together in the same thread. O.K., lets assume that an custom intake has been installed with a box seperating the filter from the engine bay. An intercooler has been installed correctly and a 4 inch exhaust system minus cat/muffler have also been added.

What I gather is that a turbomaster installed requires a boost spoofer to keep the engine from throwing codes in some instances. I think this is related to abnormal IATs due to the lack of an IC. My question is this; what purpose does the Turbomaster have controlling the wastegate if a 10k boost spoofer is installed. My understanding is that the spoofer will allow you to increase boost up to 15psi sustained by turning the dial when properly installed OR is this just allowing the wastegate turbomaster to do its job without throwing codes?

Could someone please explain this relation. Basically I am wondering if the spoofer will do the job of increasing boost without the need to fab a turbomaster?

Thanks folks!

TM is used for folks wanting to or having to eliminate the vac WG system system coding being fooled is a overboost code, if one has a functional vac system fooling is all that is required, but a TM won't leave you without boost like a failed WG solenoid-bad vac pump-or bad lines will.

A fooled engine will still defuel on high IAT which is why conventional wisdom is non post turbo cooled truck limit to 10 ish psi as max boost sustained setting;

running empty with 10 psi boost & healty truck you are running 80+ mph, mine is running nearly 100 with that kind of boost

Does the PCM know/anticipate what the IAT reading should be based on boost/throttle position/fuel delivery? I have heard on people attempting to "fool" the IAT to help prevent PCM defueling. Will the PCM flip out if it sees 150 degrees F at 2500rpm, 10 psi boost, max fuel delivery and WOT? Will it know that something about IAT just don't jive?

Now for the real question in all this. If your EGT is in acceptable range, what will the harm be having higher than normal(but not stupid-crazy) IAT?

if you get a reflash you dont need the fooler and your tranny and fuel delivery are taken care of as well and im told the turbo master is a nice add on as well

I would like to go the reflash route, but I ain't got that kind of coin laying around. And I love my little girl too much to give her up, because that's what the reflash vendors want for one of their units, if you know what I mean. Now I have a wife....:idea: . On second thought, I probably would STILL have to coming up with the difference.:badidea:

Nothing hurt but you would need to fool IAT as well as boost signal, I supect (but can't say 100%) there is a boost-rpm-IAT sanity check which is why one needs reflashing, now if setting for 7-8 psi sustained boost should be no issue there plus you get plenty of performance gain over stock if on a budget. another reason to have a variable resistor, so that when cooler weather comes, ambient conditions will allow for higher IAT operation & you can lessen the MAP sensor fooling for more boost

Best thing for you to with PC-d 6.5, is get a junk yard F PCM for your year, it will allow you to do some inexpensive things for more power, with a swap your fuel goes from 56mm max to 63mm plus a little more agressive timing-shift-fuel-IAT

TD, that's the main reason i was asking about PCM interchangeability the other day. I DO want to got with the F PCM to eliminate the some of the "foolin'" that's going on. The worst thing about all this is that a freeze plug got sucked into my intake when the intake was off and the engine was running and now I can't find it ;) . I would love to find out if the junkyard PCM has to be out of a 4X4 or not.

If what you are saying is real and a freeze plug is rattling around, I'd pull off the upper intake and find it, you dont want it laying around inside the head, while junkyarding look for a complete F upper & lower, then you don't have to plug it. it should work but I can't say 100% C & K PCMs are similar enuff to work with each other

TD, as luck may have to, I just pulled the upper intake and the silly thing managed to get stuck in the EGR tower, what are the odds:D ?

This may sound like silly question, but does the Chevys run the transfer case through the engine PCM? I've worked on Fords in the 90's and Ford ran the transfer case, as well as most of the body electrical gadgets, through what Ford called a BCM, or Body Control Module. If GM did things this way, it would make me much more certain that the ECM's will interchange. Any thoughts?

Ok, I am still not tracking. Inexpensive horsepower boost. 10k pot will work without the turbomaster? I dont want to do a reflash.. dont have a huge paycheck to work with. Im just trying to figure out if I need to do a TM with the spoofer or if the spoofer will get me what I want considering 4" exhaust, upgraded intake, IC, and gauges to monitor the system.

if your vacuum system is still working you don't need a TM just a fooler

if your vac system is broken or you want to improve reliability you may need both

if you want maximum performance go reflash or rechip depending on which system you have OBD-I or II and you won't need to fool just the TM or just the vacuum control

if you haven't been through the reference material in FAQ I highly suggest you do that now so all of this will make better sense to you.

Sorry for getting away from the subject. What TurbineDoc siad about your stock WG set up is the most important thing:

1: IF your vacuum WG system is in solid shape-meaning that you have proper vacuum to the WG (about 20 psi) then all you need to do is install the 10K ohm potentiometer inline on the green wire of the MAP sensor, the one mounted on top of the upper intake-do a search for "boost fooler or map fooler" find a good drawing and explanation. By adding resistance to the signal back to the PCM you are lowering the boost that the PCM sees, which allow you to raise the boost to say, 10 psi and the PCM only thinks the boost is 7 psi. Now the Pcm won't open the WG early and allows you to run a high boost psi.

2: If your vac WG is non-functionally (bad solenoid, bad pump, bad actuator etc) then it makes dollars and sense:D to go ahead and replace the vac system with a homemade or storebought turbomaster and do the boost fooler mod as described above (my solenoid was bad so it made sense to just spend $10 for parts to build a TM and have adjustability instead of spending $35 to replace the solenoid and still have no real control over the boost)


In a nutshell, if your stock system is good, just do the boost fooler to be able to get more than the 7 psi the PCM allows. If anything major is wrong with your stock system, replace the Vac WG actuator with a Turbomaster and do the boost fooler.

Final piece of advise, do not attempt any of these mods before installing both boost and EGT gauges:Nonono:

I hop this made at least a little sense

Dang it, TD. Finally had something that I actually knew something about:) and you jumped in and stole my thunder:) . You must have been typing the same time I was.

One more time for the slow learners please: if I sell my first born and get a reflashed pcm, do I need a fooler still? reason I ask is I put one in shortly after the Heath turbomaster, but it doesnt seem to do anything. I still get boost codes and defueling. If the pcm would clear that problem up that's one more thing leaning me in favor of the new pcm.

pcm will allow the boost with out defuel yes. so no you dont need the fooler.and you will get fuel and trans taken care of

if I sell my first born and get a reflashed pcm, do I need a fooler still? reason I ask is I put one in shortly after the Heath turbomaster, but it doesnt seem to do anything. I still get boost codes and defueling. If the pcm would clear that problem up that's one more thing leaning me in favor of the new pcm.

how much boost do you have the TM or fooler dialed in for you may need to dial it back some more than current setting, also what is current IAT.

A quality reflash should cure all of the ailments listed

how much boost do you have the TM or fooler dialed in for you may need to dial it back some more than current setting, also what is current IAT.

A quality reflash should cure all of the ailments listed
Doc, I've got the tm turned down to about 9-10. I had it up at 12 the first week, but I kept turning it down to try to get the boost sensor to stop tripping. I then added the 10k resistor, but it didn't seem to help. I still get the SES light on the highway, not so much high boost at low speed, but any time I get up to highway speed it trips regardless of boost. No idea what the IATs are at. No way of checking.
I think I've been in defuel mode a lot, some days she feels pretty strong, others not so much.
Speaking of which, I pulled my camper home today, merging on the highway it was pushing a little soot and pulling reasonably strong (for a 6.5). But next few times I had to run it up to speed it seemed much slower, and no soot. I suppose that's what they mean by defueling?

Since we're running around this subject, my question is" does the pcm cause a defuel if my TM is set to run 10 psi?

Also does a defuel always trip the SES light? Does high IAT? Do many monitor their IAT by adding a guage or can something tie into the sensor?

Sorry TD, I understand the workings of each of these components I was just unsure about the need to use them together. Unfortunately I am not with my truck so I dont get to toy around and figure things out. Your first response had some broken grammer and made it hard for me to understand what you were saying. Second response was much clearer... thank you!! PowerChallenged, thanks for the further explaination of the individual parts...

I kept reading and reading and no one was ever saying you need one or the other from what I could tell.. unless i skipped right over it. Now I know. Thanks!

Sorry TD, I understand the workings of each of these components I was just unsure about the need to use them together.

Unfortunately I am not with my truck so I dont get to toy around and figure things out. Your first response had some broken grammer and made it hard for me to understand what you were saying. !


Now now don't go dissing the teacher :Nonono: :Nonono: :D :D my grammer may be broke (but my spelling of grammar isn't ;) )

really I ain't all broke maybe your your understanding of material is :D combine what I wrote 1st post with material in FAQ for how the WG system works and it should make more sense, am I correct that you have gone through the FAQ for details how the WG system works and you are ready for final exams:D .

If something is lacking between the 2 we need to know, intent of FAQ is to give easy accurate info so one can better understand answers as given constructive criticism is allowed here

Thanks TD... and all dissing aside I appreciate the info. I read about the wastgate system and have done quite a bit of work in the Army on HMMWVs. I always get a little quirked about splicing wires controlled by the computer and doing "your own thing" which is not popular in the Army. I wanted to ensure that splicing the wires would in effect be better than rigging the WG system. The 10k pot seems to be the choice since my vac system is functional.

Again, after all my time spent researching vehicles that I have owned I have never been to a site like DP. Constantly impressed by the FAQ and the ability to advance search for anything I need to know. In this case I couldn't find a yay or nay about TM -or- spoofer.. but now I know... and I also know that I'm ArmyMechanic and Im not smarter than a moderator!

Not all that smart, I've just been around the 6.5 and fiddling with it a little longer maybe,

BTW I just want to say :saluteusa: :thankyou2 :saluteusa: for being out there on the front lines.

I turned in my uniform years ago, and want to let you know my appreciation & that it still warms my heart knowing we still have folks willing to do what needs to be done despite what zipperheads in media will want you to believe; we salute & support you guys out there back here.

:saluteusa: :saluteusa: :saluteusa:

As far as vac working or not working; for reliability which was maybe not clear in my post a TM is way to go, especially on a Hummer if that is what we are talking about.

Heat is part of what kills the WG solenoid, embrittles the nylon tubing so it cracks, and kills the vac pump diaphragms. If I were in harms way I'd not want to lose my boost in time of need, also removing a vac pump and shorter belt is one less item to go bad

And maybe free up some extra grunt since "up-armoring" really taxes the 6.5 system I'd want to eke out every ounce of reserve Hp I could get.

Thanks for the comments in the post above! As far as messing with the WG on the hmmwv... haven't had alot of time to mess with it unfortunately. It would take most the day to remove all of the equipment inside the truck to remove the cover and gain access to the turbo housing. Cant risk the downtime on the truck to go fooling around with the WG unfortunately. You are right about the armor. My truck weighs about 15000lbs!! 33% over the rating on the suspension not to mention the taxing on the engine. If i push the truck over 40mphs toget up to 45 when im out around town, I go from 210 degrees to 240 befor i hit 43mph. NO FUN! Truck is very hard to reverse from a standstill... i almost always end up doing a very bad thing- putting it into nuetral reving up the engine and then slamming it into reverse. Not good.

Be headed back to the states in a couple months and going to be digging into my 3500. Just trying to get a head start and plan my steps. Judging by your last post I might need to go ahead and fab up a WG TM... I guess I wont know for sure until I dig into the system how I will design it. Need to do my best to find a diagram around here on the site to figure out how I am going to make one.

It would be fun if they would let you play with it to equip a Hummer with all mods in my signature, when I'm hauling the backhoe shown in my members garage I'm rolling 24K with truck & loaded trailer, 70 is easy 80 is doable as well; but at some point enuff is enuff with that weight, so I self limit to 70

yea it would be great... would definately be able to move around the city easier.

When I was USN they had a program called beneficial suggestions where service member could make suggestions for improving way stuff works or is maintained, I don't know if USAr has similar, but check it out maybe we could make a faster shoot & scoot Hummer (in spite of armor); sort of a Place pet project,we get some R&D & also help you guys get out of, or into out of harms way faster when you got to go to aid of your buddies

yah- i would have to see.. i know the army has some stuff like that but they are amoung these ideas of KISS (keep is simple stupid) and probably wont be into allowing tinkering around on products by 5th rate army mechanics. dont know though.. ill look into it and see what I can find. most the mechanics in the army are pretty dumb about electronic stuff when it comes to hmmwv fuel management, boost, etc.. ive seen alot of guys boring out the IP feed line and getting quite a bit more HP out of that.. its quick fix to help dump more fuel into the engine.

.. ive seen alot of guys boring out the IP feed line and getting quite a bit more HP out of that.. its quick fix to help dump more fuel into the engine.

something like this http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42291 (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42291&highlight=feed+the+beast) works better than just boring out IP inlet fitting as GM in infinite wisdom choked the fuel mgr with same wussily fittings as well as one on the IP.

Yah, something similar to that. These folks dig out the inlet with a drill.. suppose your set would be safer and more reversible. Not sure if I will bother doing that just because I think I am going to put a wvo system in when i get home. I already stuck it in the budget. Between the wife's mei powered chrysler and my chevy we burn alot of fuel as is. Are you happy with your addition of the second lift pump? HMMWVs have a fuel filter installed pre-IP / post lift pump. Not sure about our trucks.. havent had mine long enough to spend much time under the hood unfortunately- too much time deployed.

however - id bet the army would kick some cash out for an intercooler system for the hmmwv that was easy to install and that they could purchase in bulk- would definately improve performance and we would quick detonating these engines in this 125F heat so muh.

IC doesn't do much good for slow speed crawling, need about 10 mph of air across it to be much good, but a Water To Air IC might be the ticket if you had some way to keep the water cool

yah. most the time we are either cruising about 30mph or sitting at a deadstop... traffic can get very backed up around baghdad. i see a lot of folks blowing their engines out here in the heat, turbos getting shot, and fuel systems going kablewie... ive had my truck die on me twice.. had to dump ice cold water on the IP to get her back going.. right out in the middle of the city! argh.... whats your opinion on wvo transition TD?

If you have ready access to WVO, and are willing to keep it clean, mix no more than 25% WV to Nr2 it works without issues, for me too much a PITA to mess with it, I've got better things to do with my time than go scrounging for, & then prepping WV for use.

Some guys just dump it in after straining it don't pay attention to concentration, works for a while, but those that run that way eventually show up sooner than later with issues, usually right about the time cooler weather kicks in and their WV with who knows what is in it in way of animal fats & such turns to lard, IPs & lift pumps don't work well on lard.

Go to fluids discussion area that is where the veggie burners & bio burners hang out & discuss all pro & cons of it. Doable but just doesn't appeal to me.

yah. most the time we are either cruising about 30mph or sitting at a deadstop... traffic can get very backed up around baghdad. i see a lot of folks blowing their engines out here in the heat, turbos getting shot, and fuel systems going kablewie... ive had my truck die on me twice.. had to dump ice cold water on the IP to get her back going.. right out in the middle of the city! argh.... whats your opinion on wvo transition TD?


For those conditions, you really need an electric fan trans cooler, deep trans pan with extra fluid, severe duty water cooling pump & fan clutch, improved lift pumps & fuel filtration, for DS4 IPd Hummers get PMDs off of the IP and on a cooler out of the engine bay, probably a return fuel cooler with fan not bad idea either.

I've never looked under military hummer but is exhaust ststem as cobbled up with twists & bends like a civvy truck or burb, 2.5" pipe & downpipes on civvy trucks are real flow killers & heat storers gotta let these things breathe.

I'll digress & rant a little biggest problem is sending you guys over with Hummers, good for intended purpose people moving scout vehicle(replacement jeep), but not good for use as an APC.

Politicians wanting to look good & showing support "feeling need to do something" lets up-armor them, so without fully examining the problem mandate up-armor program for all vehicles.

Imagine somebody with todays mentality in WWII thru entry of Hummer days; up-armoring a Jeep to extent of the overtaxed Hummer today, then complaining how poor of a vehicle the Jeep (one of the best military assets ever) was because it wasn't up to the task. Duh Jeeps & Hummers were never designed for this kind of duty, want a vehicle rated as APC capable build/buy APCs

Did they do anything to correct already problematic cooling issues, low power etc. nope but I sure "feel better" about doing something. They should review all the things we have done in civvy community that work, allow those solutions to be applied to Hummers, stop using Hummers as APCs, again a role they were never intended for, and get more real APCs in country to compliment/support that which is being asked of the Hummer.

Hummers are good vehicles and can fufill many roles, but it can't do them all, and when switching roles an engineered approach to the situation/application has to take place.

IMO this is why it is important that politicians have to come from ranks of military before they lead them and also should not be allowed to be born & bred into the job of politician, you can't learn about the world & how it really works from capitol hill you have to have been there done that got the tee shirt with sleeves cut off & grimy experience

rant over

Nice Rant! I agree completely... i have often said the exact same things as you just said. HMMWVs are great machines but they arent meant to be loaded down like we have them. Too much money spent on them.... however, I have been kept alive by this truck more times than I can count even with the armor... i would take it anyday. My last trip here I spent the whole year in and about Falujjah with no armor on me or my truck. riding around with no doors and no a/c. Ill take the amor anyday even if it means i get suck on curbs, in the mud, trying to back up etc.. etc.. which is a weekly occurance. Just the other day I had to shove one of my trucks over a curb with mine because it just didnt have the power to make it up and over. Ended up sitting on the curb like one of those model t cars at six flags... quite comical except that this was in a very bad neighborhood. still though... i feel quite safe in those things. the military does need to spend quite a bit more time figuring out a true replacement for the hmmwv and just scrub the truck. we will never go into combat without apc on wheels again. that may be our undoing in a future war... but it is the truth. the new truck needs to have the ability to be light and modile and fit into small spots like the hummer does and still have the armor. Not sure how they will do it but its gotta get done. A contract for a bunch of uparmored suburbans would be nice.. but it wouldnt happen, too expensive and who would fix them? off road capabilities are limited then too... all these new trucks they are coming out with are nice and protective.. but they cant fit in tight spots like the hummer can.

re- the exhaust on the hummer is not too bottled up. pretty much a straight shot from the engine to out the side... smog grabber in there tho.. imaging that.

The primary issue is this:

The military services are taking the current equipment (prepped up for doing the LAST war) and attempting to adapt it for THIS war.

Past military tactics were basically this:

-Use Air Assets to pound the crap out of an area of land
-Use ground forces to pound the crap out of the same area of land
-Rush in with heavy armor to grab that land
-Use reserve assets to hold said land
-Repeat

Now, current military tactics are more like SWAT tactics - it's building by building, street corner by street corner, floor by floor.

The current group of military hardware for land asset use (Army/Marine Corps) are NOT designed for street fighting. Ironically, the HMMWV is the best to use since it's one of the most nimble - but it's not the best armored.

I won't get into the uparmoring. You all have hashed it out and I agree. The HMMWV was designed as a light tactical support vehicle - not as a front line combat transport truck. It's versatility allows it to be used as an uparmored truck, but it's not designed for that role from the ground up.

Now - there's a reason why a lot of the civvy conversions to armored vehicles haven't been GM derived - there's no Duramax version of the Suburban or Tahoe.

So - with that being said, the HMMWV is one of the best things out there. It's too bad that when the new stuff for this war finally comes off the assembly line, we're likely into the NEXT war.

-Steve

youve made some good points. - not much else anyone can say other than 'congressman, fix this crap please' and we all know that aint gonna work lol.