Why Injectors Are Failing? [Archive] - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

hoot

11-07-2004, 05:45 PM

Going into the fourth year now.

Do you think someone would know THE main reason why they fail and will share this info with us?

Or is it top secret? They don't want us to know because if we found out they'd have to kill us?

Interesting how you don't read one cotton pickin thing in the tech news or any other publications for that matter.

There has got to be somebody in the know at Bosch or Dmax that reads these forums and knows the answer.

I wish they would come forward and inform us so we know what we are all dealing with.

I could be in the same situation in the future with my Cummins. I don't
know. I can't find out because the industry is so tight lipped about
this.

I wonder if there is an edict out there keeping the info locked. Otta be a class action lawsuit.

Edited by: hoot

Tomslick24

11-07-2004, 05:59 PM

You know someone knows why...The 98.99.00.01 detroit diesel series 60 engine heads were having a lot of copper failure or sleeve as some call it .We had a massive engine overhaul campaign because of it.Detroit said they didn't know why?????Yeah right..Come to find out they were trying a new machineing process,which didn't work.My fleet finally got them to fess up and we did the overhaul's under warranty....which cost detroit diesel a bundle.Morale to story as in the injector issue is SOMEONE KNOWS AND YOU CAN BET ON IT...

kool

11-07-2004, 08:13 PM

i do but i would have to kill u:)

OC_DMAX

11-07-2004, 08:34 PM

Hoot wrote: Otta be a class action lawsuit.

Your can bet the reason GM acted first (7yr / 200K mile injector warranty) was out of fear of being dragged into court with a class action suit. GM set the terms of the settlement instead of the court. Large corporations do not spend $100's millions of dollars out of the goodness of their heart, they just react to protect the bottom line.

Bigwheel

11-07-2004, 09:34 PM

Maybe we should call this:

"Welcome to the Research and Development Place".......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

We offer complete reassurance of your total investments, but we can't guarentee that the manufacturer will guarentee our solutions to keep your trucks running problem free well over 200,00 mileshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif ( mainly prevent solutions from being installed to help us in many years, problem free 200,00 miles )

Too many things to say here, and too many good people on here to say anything bad, but I will say this: I've brought my 02 max in several times for possible injector hick-ups, and I almost got billed for having them check my max with no codes... They said : Nothings wrong till your down on the road..... Like a Rock......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif

Thanks GM for your continued, Unconditional, Support.....

dmaxalliTech

11-07-2004, 10:47 PM

Chad, no hard feelings right?

LOL

problemchild

11-08-2004, 12:06 AM

Maybe spicer could run an injector flow bench like the whole uni debacle.

byronlj

11-08-2004, 01:12 AM

"DIESELGATE"!

Dave

BamaFan

11-08-2004, 01:21 AM

My take : It does not bother me one bit that there have been injector problems. Thats the way it goes with man made parts. That being said, all I ask is for GM to share with us the fact the injectors are a flawed design, poor wormanship, or whatever. Improve the design, and lets move on. I appreciate the extended warranty, but I really want to know the "new" injectors are improved and more reliable. I do not think thats to much to ask. I have always been a GM guy, and always will be. Now, if they will support me (us) in the same way.

acehi

11-08-2004, 04:26 AM

My take on this whole thing is, if they know the specific trucks that have the bad injectors, why not recall them in and fix them all. I to am not bothered that there is an injector problem, especially on my year truck. What bothers me is I do a lot of long trips and being up here in Alaska you can drive for hours and see no houses, cities or anything. And when i drive through Canada down the Alcan, it is a beautiful drive but in the areas I drive you don't want your truck breaking down in the middle of no-where with no cell phone service and your chances of someone driving by you before you freeze to death being very slim. If they would just replace the known bad injectors up front people wouldn't have to worry so much. Granted, there are going to be breakdowns, but at least fix the KNOWN problems. I would much rather break down of a bad injector(s) that was not on the "known problem list", instead of worrying about my next long trip with my family in -20 degree weather in the middle of no-where in a vehicle with a known possible problem. I would feel a little more at ease. Just my .02 cents

Jeff

a bear

11-08-2004, 04:55 AM

I aint worried about it too much. I figure by the time I get 200K on my truck if the change rate is high they will have a better quality injector by then. Untill then I'm covered.

hoot

11-08-2004, 06:33 AM

Anybody that says they aren't concerned about injector failure must really feel that way. Like <span ="bold">acehi
says... long trips is the concern. I got a call from a friend one night
who's crankcase filled with fuel. Had his whole family in the truck.

I'm not attempting a scare campaign here at all. I didn't create the
facts, GM did. As I racked up the miles on my Dmax, it got to where I
would trust my wifes 94 big Blazer with over 80,000 miles on
it more than the DMax. Concerned, darn right. I could care less
about GM warranty . I don't expect to have to use it for a major
breakdown. I had a headgasket go. Next I would be looking at failing
injectors. Almost a given as far as I'm concerned.

I just would like to know after giving GM a huge chunk of change, why I
couldn't trust my $40,000 truck. What was/is the reason for failing
injectors.

Fuel filters haven't shown any promise although I think they are a good
thing. Injectors are failing on low mileage trucks, new trucks, old
truck.

What is failing is my question? Many of us can understand tech talk
here. We know how the injectors work. We would like to know if the
problem is truly addressed or is going to be the norm.

The one thing that aggrivates me is some of you GM suckers who think GM
is IT, taking in everything GM shoves down your throat and coming back
for more. I was there. It's stupid. How can anybody honestly be
comfortable because it's covered by GM. It's like buying alternaters
from Pep Boys. Life time warranty. Yes they give you a new one every
time you replace it but who wants the aggrivation.

Parts fail, machines aren't perfect but this is ridiculous.

"I just had all eight injectors replaced on my 03 Dmax and I'm so happy. I love GM for treating me so well. I love this truck" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

</span>
Edited by: hoot

dmaxfan

11-08-2004, 09:55 AM

What really sucks is for us that have 03's and 04's. The warranty doesn't cover us for the 200,000 mile warranty. Isn't the injectors the same in all from 01-04? Heck I dunno.

mightyvh

11-08-2004, 10:11 AM

I just would like to know after giving GM a huge chunk of change, why I couldn't trust my $40,000 truck. What was/is the reason for failing injectors.

I love my truck but that is how I feel too. I have never been left on the side of the road by a vehicle that I couldn't easily fix...Rad / Battery. I know it can happen but I always have this injector thing in the back of my mind when we go on a trip. I think GM has a good idea of what is wrong but not a good way to fix. So they are getting ahead of a recall / suit with the 200k warranty and fix only the ones that die. Hopefully they will get on top of this issue and really solve it

st_pinetree

11-08-2004, 10:11 AM

Well, I just had mine done, and here's my take on it. First, if you know the symptoms, I don't think its really likely they will go in a catastrophic manner and strand you someplace. (although, there are exceptions) 2nd, GM is doing something with the extended warranty. I think they will back up the 03, and 04's as well, we'll have to wait and see.

I have been a GM person my whole life. In 01 I bought a Furd.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif There is a number of major issues out there with the 6.0 fords that we've all heard about, but there was also some issues with the 99 up 7.3s as well. My engine was shot completely due to a poor design of the air intake system at under 40k miles. Then there is the often talked about "cackle". and other smaller problems. Ford absolutely puts their air intake issue off on the consumer, and many are beginning to fail now that there are some miles on them. The "cackle" is just normal diesel noise. Yeah right. Read more here if you are interested. http://www.texastowncar.com No support from Ford and the only way you can get anything accomplished is to use your state's lemon law or the Dispute settlement board. Ford's "customer service" is a complete joke IMO.

The moral of my sad tale is that there are promblems with all of the big diesel pickups. Sad, but true. Personally, I think the injectors are something I can live with. (And I make a lot of long weekend trips in the summer and can't afford to be stranded someplace either.) I am hopeful that GM is working with Bosch to find a permanent solution, and thankful that at least they have offered up the extended warranty to the 01, 02 people. Now they just have to extend it to the 03,04 folks and I'll be a fairly satisfied consumer.

I hate to say it, but maybe some Japanese competition would help with some of these quality control issues.

Dura_Mike

11-08-2004, 12:45 PM

I hate to say it, but maybe some Japanese competition would help with some of these quality control issues.

I wonder who will be supplying the injectors for Toyota when they hit the US market with their diesel powered 3/4 ton trucks in '07??? You can bet Toyota has been monitoring all of the problems with Bosch injectors...http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

Tsckey

11-08-2004, 01:35 PM

I’ve mentioned this before, but in California the Attorney General settled a lawsuit with GM regarding gas engined vehicles that were experiencing high rates of injector failure. Initially, GM tried to blame the owners (sound familiar?) citing bad fuel. The AG’s action was based on the simple premise that if you introduce a product into a market you in effect certify that it will function properly in that market. You are presumed to have knowledge of the conditions that will be encountered by the consumer of your product and to have taken the precautions needed to ensure that the product will perform satisfactorily. That means that if you place a sensitive machine into a harsh environment that is known to cause failures in that machine you, not the customer, must bear the cost of repair. The settlement provided for repairs and extended warranties for the aggrieved vehicle owners, essentially the same terms that GM extended to ‘0-‘2 Duramax owners. If the same failures occur to the later years, as sadly appears to be the case, very likely the warranties will be extended to them, as well.

By the way, Hoot, you always seem to be up on these things, IIRC you mentioned in a post some months ago that there are structural differences between the Duramax and Cummins injectors. Could you elaborate?

TC

hoot

11-08-2004, 02:43 PM

By the way, Hoot, you always seem to be up on these things, IIRC you
mentioned in a post some months ago that there are structural
differences between the Duramax and Cummins injectors. Could you
elaborate?

TC

Couple of things.

There are no high pressure lines directly connect to the injectors.
Cummins uses a fitting in the side of the head that transports th
efuel, through some sort of "edge" filter and to the injector,
non-contact.

There are no internal return lines.

HBruns

11-08-2004, 03:26 PM

.... No support from Ford and the only way you can get anything accomplished is to use your state's lemon law or the Dispute settlement board. Ford's "customer service" is a complete joke IMO.....

I agree!
My wife drives a 1995 Ford Windstar. When this car was less than a year old it rolled while in "Park" and sustained ~$500 in body damage hitting a tree. When contacted that day via phone, Ford Motor Company was very responsive and promised to make things right. We wanted the transmission problem fixed and the body damage repaired. Later, in writing, they back-pedaled and told us they would be willing to test the transmission... but only if we shipped it to them http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif

At that time I vowed NEVER to buy a Ford again; that's now two new pickup trucks where Ford was not even an option. Not only that, I (still!) tell anyone about this who will listen, and even a few who won't.

My complete, continuing & utter contempt for Ford is because they did not make it right. The fact that there was a problem is not the issue; it is how they decided to handle the problem that I will always remember.

gardnerteam

11-08-2004, 03:43 PM

As far as injector failures on long trips, as I've said before, I drove mine back from Guadelajara Mexico with two cracked injectors filling my crankcase with diesel. I changed my oil every 200 miles or so - next time I won't even do that. Didn't affect driveability nor engine performance - mileage went to about 8 though. If starts blowing diesel fuel on you, drive the damn thing til you get where you need to go. The one thing in our favor is the DMax is one hell of a great engine, despite a questionable injection system, and despite GM. Cummins is also a great engine, despite Dodge. Ford, well, it is FIX OR REPAIR DAILY in its current state.

Mackin

11-08-2004, 04:16 PM

Good Ole brand switch truth serum! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif

But Hoot there is some truth in your questions and statements. GM has one chance with me to get it right.If I see another failure while in warranty,it's gone.Ditto with the repair facility,if they get a recall on the repair,come spring it's gone. I wont have a nagging problem to deal with.

I hate the fact of bringing my truck in today tomorrow or ever. At 45K there should not be a pivoting point for such a major repair.I luv the GM truck fit finish and drive train and I wont At'a boy a repair that should have never come but be happy it is repaired and not FUBAR.

As far as failure it's metal fatigue in my eyes non stoppable. As written secondary or primary filtering to better quality isn't prolonging a preexisting problem.

It has to be a supplier problem either in machining (drawing) and or metal supplied is bad or substitute out of Bosch original spec. Substitution of material is common in the industry,trust me. When parts are formed and inspected and production quotas are to be made defective parts are allowed thru.

I believe this do to the random and non pattern of failure. I also believe if your a lucky one to have a defective injector running enhancements can possibly escalate the failure,That's my opinion.

I also believe this is what you heard (injector Knock) prior to your trade Hoot,it's horrible.

I think (hope)that if Bosch tightens it's quality assurance, GM might get out of this issue,time will tell.

01 Beta tester,

Mac

hoot

11-08-2004, 05:13 PM

Hey I don't feel like I escaped. I have similar injectors. Only time
will tell but the good news is there are few reports of injector
failure even on 100,000 mile plus Dodge Cummins trucks. Maybe Cummins
jumped on the possible issues with Bosch and made the appropriate
demands.

st_pinetree

11-08-2004, 06:39 PM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif.... No support from Ford and the only way you can get anything accomplished is to use your state's lemon law or the Dispute settlement board. Ford's "customer service" is a complete joke IMO.....

I agree!

At that time I vowed NEVER to buy a Ford again; that's now two new pickup trucks where Ford was not even an option. Not only that, I (still!) tell anyone about this who will listen, and even a few who won't.

My complete, continuing & utter contempt for Ford is because they did not make it right. The fact that there was a problem is not the issue; it is how they decided to handle the problem that I will always remember.

Hee Hee, not that they really care, but it gives me a warm fuzzy to spread my woeful tale to whoever will listen as well. The airbox on those PSD's is such a POS its really pathetic. But they won't own up to it. Even after they came out with "the extreme duty" air filter kit which will only set you back a couple hundred bucks. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif Right, give Ford a couple hundred to fix a fatal flaw on a $40k truck. No thanks, I'll just drive something else from now on. As far as these Dmax's, if they ever get the injectors right, I'll drive one forever with a big grin my face. Not much else to complain about.

hoot

11-08-2004, 06:48 PM

I thought that new $100 Donaldson PowerCore air filter on the Ford is the cats meow?

Tsckey

11-08-2004, 07:41 PM

Some companies do stand behind their products. My first 4Runner came with a defect in the transmission. I wasn’t satisfied with the service from my dealer so I contacted Toyota directly. I regret today that my letter was somewhat sarcastic, because they were on the phone to me the day they received it and promised to have the thing fixed to my satisfaction. And they did. The second 4Runner was fine, but when I took it in for a routine timing belt replacement the dealer (different one) asked if I’d had the head gasket recall work done. I hadn’t. Well, the service manager said that since they had to take it apart anyway, why didn’t I go ahead and have a few other maintenance items taken care of at the same time. All of it was done at less than the cost of the belt replacement alone. So, even though I love my truck and enjoy driving it more than any vehicle I’ve ever owned, if Toyota comes up with a viable diesel alternative, I’d give it very serious consideration. On the other hand, if GM wants to do the right thing by us and stand behind their engine, I’ll keep what I have and drive it until it’s ready to return to the earth ... or I am.

TC

RonJT

11-08-2004, 07:43 PM

I do not think gm will say what the real problem is--because we may all want injectors--they are just going to replace as they fail.

The real question is have the injectors been fixed???

Funny--the other day I saw a duramax idling on the way home on my bike---tons of white smoke.....I wonder if he knows.

SaguaroKid

11-08-2004, 08:30 PM

We need an insider. Does anyone know anyone that works at the DMax plant?

Mackin

11-08-2004, 09:23 PM

We need an insider. Does anyone know anyone that works at the DMax plant?

Right

Federal Reserve,Abe Lincoln,JFK,Silver Dollar,Lee ,Pepperidge,Dirt, shovel ,Casket, come to mind?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif

Jomar

11-08-2004, 09:32 PM

I`ve got a feeling, ( and I hope I`m right ) that a lot of what is posted on these forums gets back to GM.

Jomar

SaguaroKid

11-08-2004, 09:37 PM

Mac said,

Right

Federal Reserve,Abe Lincoln,JFK,Silver Dollar,Lee ,Pepperidge,Dirt, shovel ,Casket, come to mind?

Are you a wind talker, Te oh sa tad oh.

I talking about hooking up to with a U.A.W. brother! Edited by: SaguaroKid

OC_DMAX

11-08-2004, 09:56 PM

As Mackin wrote above, we should not even be thinking of injector failures on this product at 40k or 50k miles. I agree with this 100%. Diesels used to be the engine you bought for economy and durability. During the last several years, I am beginning to wonder about this in general (all three brands).

With the expense of injector replacement and the reality/prospect of engine damage with each crankcase full of diesel fuel, these failures should not occur until well after 200K miles. The 200K mile extension is a good first step, the part I do not understand is the 7 year limitation. There should be a minimum mileage that GM warrants the injectors to go, independent of time. We consumers did not install defective injectors in our engines, GM/Bosch did. We paid a $5k premium for a Duramax (durable) motor, I expect a reliable product.

Heck, my 2003 Toyota Camry came with a 150Kmile / 15 year engine/emission warranty (something unique in CA). GM charges almost as much for a new DMAX motor as what I paid for the Camry new.

Bigwheel

11-08-2004, 10:16 PM

Eric:

Yea, no hard feelings!!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif

I deeply appreciate your help, as well as many others on here.

I think you know where I was going with it.......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

You know how I was treated at the dealer, and the b.s. that goes with the warranty stuff. Edited by: Bigwheel

tophog

11-08-2004, 11:23 PM

I think what would help is get this problem into the public spot light ...I know it would be expensive but would get GM's attention as bad publicity is going to hurt sales. These forums are a great place to vent but does nothing in terms of forcing GM to fix the problem and fix it right. As ProblemChild stated in some post ...we're just a bunch of "sheeples".

On edit: How about a big-ass diesel place rear window sticker members can purchase that reads "This truck has poorly designed injectors" or something along those lines ...then on a predetermined week everyone makes a dealer visit so the sticker can be seen. Wouldln't take too long for GM to get the msg. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gifEdited by: tophog

Mackin

11-09-2004, 05:50 AM

GM knows it's costing them a bundle!

ur2slow

11-09-2004, 07:28 AM

For us new guys what are the symptoms of the injectors failing? I don't think I caught it in any of the posts.

Thanks,
Jon

4x4man

11-09-2004, 08:26 AM

My symptoms were rough idle, horrible knocking noise at idle, pinging under acceleration, and smoke at tailpipe at idle (white/blue).

Duramax Dually

11-09-2004, 09:48 AM

Mine was sluggish power and light smoke at idle. Still driving it today....waiting. Injectors on order. Checking oil level every morning. So far looks good. MPG is stable.

On The topic: I agree, GM will never cough up why the injectors are failing. Matter of fact they may not know. Bosch knows and could be telling a load of garbage to GM. Now I do not believe for one minute that the masterminds at GM have not disected an injector and said AHH HA! that's the problem...But without Bosch's buy in and confirmation it is merely speculation. I do know this, The failed injectors go back to Bosch and GM is given full credit towards replacements. GM loses the labor. Of course that is really nothing in the grand scheme of things, the business they are losing with this failure is more than GM will ever be able to quantify....

Regardless of outcome, Still like my truck, would still buy another and will get the new set up in it and drive it like there is no tomorrow.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

hoot

11-09-2004, 12:20 PM

Well at least GM can count on the hard cores. Somebody has to pay for the perpetual replacements.

I personally could care less who pays the labor or who is taking the
blame. More concerned with being screwed with the major failure after
shelling out $39,000. GM is not taking that concern away and not
fessing up with a real design fix.

Seems like corporate suicide to me. I won't buy another one. Now if
they came out with a real fix, I might consider them again. Till
then, no GM diesel for me. They continue to live up to their reputation.

IMHO Dodge has the most reliable diesel. Maybe not as fast, maybe not as refined but reliable it is.

Edited by: hoot

Duramax Dually

11-09-2004, 01:53 PM

Hoot,

Well I am not necessarily a hard core, but I am realist. Looking for perfection in any car is nuts. Switching makers does not fix this problem, only masks it. I figure ALL car makers have their problems which is why they have service departments. I have just become quite familiar with GM products and know how they think and where they install everything and for the most part are user friendly. So unless GM totally drops a ball on a vehicle there really is no reason to switch makers under the premise that I can get perfection elsewhere.

I truly believe the Cummins motor is a tried and proven engine, but the Duramax motor is solid as well. Just a bit of a hick up in the injector system. I sure hope someone can dig up the root cause as it could have lasting effects on all the makers using Bosch products. However as long as the general public falls into this "I have to have the BEST, the Most HP, Most TQ, Most towing capacity they will continue to push the envelop and things will fail, some catastrophically. They advertise to feed the male EGO..They do not sell cars to women...they sell cars to men. "Be the first on your block", "Most power in its class" "Its got a HEMI"....Blah Blah...I think the JD Powers claim is a big pile of cow manure. But people believe it and buy and then turn around and brag about it. So it does work. I mean why would anyone buy a new car with a 10 year, 100K mile warranty and then 3 years later sell it...Why???...Because they have told you that it is old news and you need a BETTER one. We have become a wasteful nation and a bit over obsessive in one up'ing the neighbor.....

Carry On......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

Bill Reid

11-09-2004, 05:03 PM

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNABLE="on">
<T>
<TR height="100%" UNABLE="on" width="100%">
<TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNABLE="off">Here is my short story on my 01 Duracrap...

86,000 miles - Started consuming coolant. Glow plugs pulled and cylinder #8 has coolant pouring out of it. Truck sat at dealer for several WEEKS because GM wanted the WARPED head back to look at prior to sending another. Head replaced under warranty.

99,000 miles - All injectors replaced under warranty because one injector failed.

125,000 miles - towing our 42ft car hauler back across the desert at night just South of Quartzite and the engine toasted. $644 tow bill later this is what I find; Cylinder #8 AGAIN!!!!!!!!!! This time it took the engine with it. Low coolant light comes on and engine starts sounding like a box of rocks. My driver couldn't over to the side of the road fast enough. Oil POURING out of the rear main seal... turns out it wasn't just oil. Diesels just make a darker version of milkshake http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif . Truck is now at dealership. Mechanic had to yank hard to get # 8 glowplug out because something rattling around in the cylinder bent it.

So, now I'm out of warranty. Found an engine from a broker who gets new engines pulled off the assembly line that get dyno tested and then sold as used. Apparantly there are still some surplus complete LB7 engines. Its an 03-E04 as the PVC system on the new motor is different and supposably better. Engine was $6500 SHIPPED... NO CORE and its complete from turbo to oil pan minus altenator and A/C compressor. Labor to swap motor will be about $2000. I'll pull my old motor apart and see what, if anything, is salvagable.

Bottom line... this will be our last Chevy diesel... on to Dodge I think... as soon as our business can recover from the unexpected $8500 bill. Kinda sucks too... as we had our trailor painted the same Indigo Blue as the truck.

Just thought I'd share... injectors are NOT the only problem with this engine.

Anybody think GM would listen to me if I wrote a letter?</TD></TR>
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a bear

11-09-2004, 05:05 PM

Duramax Dually I agree 100%. And the cummings is only part of the truck. What good is a refined engine when the trans and body is a POS. Just look at the Dodges on the road. After a couple of years they look like hell with the rattles to match. Little things one after another.

At least GM is willing to foot the bill while working on a better injector design. They didn't have to and I think they are being as fair as they can for now. I hear everyone saying recall but what are you going to replace your recall with. This injector issue is not so bad/common that I can't wait 200K for a complete fix. I also wouldn't think they are dragging their heels as this warranty is costing them a bundle. As far as the break down in the middle of nowhere song, this is BS. Any vehicle can leave you at any time for any reason. I see all brands on the side of the road. Actually I never saw a DMax.

On a Dodge note my dad has had evaporator cores changed and is on his 3rd transmission on his Ram and he is eating every penny. They say he is overworking the truck. Go figure. He is one of the last Dodge diehards in our family and is ready to make the switch. The others have already converted. I get sick of hearing how good the cummins is. The rest of the truck matters as well. Maybe we should start living around the Allison.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

Bill Reid

11-09-2004, 05:12 PM

hoot

11-09-2004, 05:13 PM

I have just become quite familiar with GM
products and know how they think and where they install everything and
for the most part are user friendly. So unless GM totally drops a ball
on a vehicle there really is no reason to switch makers under the
premise that I can get perfection elsewhere.

I have found in the last 6 months that my Dodge is user friendly
also... much more so. It seems everytime I work on it I get pleasantly
surprised by the engineering.

I truly believe the Cummins motor is a tried and
proven engine, but the Duramax motor is solid as well. Just a bit of a
hick up in the injector system. I sure hope someone can dig up the root
cause as it could have lasting effects on all the makers using Bosch
products. However as long as the general public falls into this "I
have to have the BEST, the Most HP, Most TQ, Most towing
capacity they will continue to push the envelop and things will fail,
some catastrophically. They advertise to feed the male EGO..They do not
sell cars to women...they sell cars to men. "Be the first on your
block", "Most power in its class" "Its got a HEMI"....Blah Blah...I
think the JD Powers claim is a big pile of cow manure. But people
believe it and buy and then turn around and brag about it. So it does
work. I mean why would anyone buy a new car with a 10 year, 100K mile
warranty and then 3 years later sell it...Why???...Because they have
told you that it is old news and you need a BETTER one. We have become
a wasteful nation and a bit over obsessive in one up'ing the
neighbor.....

Carry On......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

Some might say moving to a Dodge would not be considered being over
obsessive or upping your nieghbor. For me it was the only choice right
now. Sometimes I feel like I'm on the sidelines but it feels good being
there. On the road sitting up in a real 4x4, impressions change.

Edited by: hoot

hoot

11-09-2004, 05:17 PM

At least GM is willing to foot the bill while working
on a better injector design. They didn't have to and I think they are
being as fair as they can for now.

Nothing personal but that statement makes me sick http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif

Working on a better injection design?????? What's the matter with doing
that in 2000? This is fricking almost 2005 boys. How frickin long does
it take? Don't you get it at all or are you all GM blind? Maybe Ford
and Navistar will be smart enough to make the real changes as Dmax
fizzles.

Remember the early GM diesels in Oldsmobiles

Remember 1994 circa 6.5's People were getting injection
pumps replaced faster than they could run through a tank of fuel and it
went on for years.

It's nothing new... It's happening again. This is what my real beef is.
They are letting it go for years again. Same BS different day.

OK it's a good strong motor. I agree 100% Isuzu did that part right. GM
bosched the rest up. And they can keep it and the sissed out frame and
suspension design on an HD truck. Between the two I've had it... sorry.

Flame ON

Edited by: hoot

Got Juice?

11-09-2004, 05:24 PM

That's ok hoot, i know of 4 HPCR CTD's that have had their injectors done. 2 on TDR1 and 1 in town here (whole motor replace) and another in a friends truck who is on the TDR but does not post much.

His Rail Press sensor also died.

Bottom line is with the injection pressures we are running. Steve has pointed out we are darn near running water jet cutter pressures in these injectors, so FOD is more catastrophic due to higher pressures, closer body tolerance and orifice size. Clean fuel is not a luxury.

Europe has cleaner diesel than we do, we need to clean up our act a bit.

hoot

11-09-2004, 05:29 PM

dmax lover

11-09-2004, 06:31 PM

Actually, according to bosch studies - in terms of fuel cleanliness, U.S. fuel is on par with european fuel.

Everyone has their opinion about why the injector failures are happening. I believe it's poor lubricity in U.S. fuel - and suspect programmers may make it worse. Bosch says without lubricity the injectors will fail very early in life. This is in their presentations to CARB (california's epa), with data to back it up. Why should I think any different.

- jeffEdited by: dmax lover

partsguy662

11-09-2004, 06:45 PM

DURAMAX1

11-09-2004, 07:07 PM

I was on my way back from Glamis on Holloween. Truck started running funny. I was towing a 10K trailer loaded. All I have to say is, I MADE IT HOME. 160 miles. Pulling all the hills @ 65 mph. Had #7 injector replaced. I do remember passing 3 Powerstrokes on the side of the road. 1 cummins. On it's worst day, I made it home. That is what keeps me in this truck.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

kool

11-09-2004, 07:11 PM

hoot

11-09-2004, 07:15 PM

I don't care what Bosch or GM says about fuel and lubricity. When you
design a mechanical machine, you design it to work with what's
available. If the fuel isn't up to par cleanliness wise or lubricity
than you provide the hardware/lubricants to deal with those issues so
you end up with a durable system.

Otherwise get the f out of the market!

Seems simple enough

a bear

11-09-2004, 07:17 PM

hoot

11-09-2004, 07:18 PM

We need an insider. Does anyone know anyone that works at the DMax plant?

i do but sometimes people on here make me just wanna keep people outta the circlehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif

kool.... don't put your job on the line. There is no need for any insider to post openly. We all know better than that.

Edited by: hoot

hoot

11-09-2004, 07:22 PM

Just about everybody that grew up with
me on the DMax is or had injector issues. Some of the Cummins cases you
mention.. in the high hp realm? There is no flashing light over on TDR
about injector problems.

23-26,000 lbs is a lot. Water jets typically.... 60-80,000

Clean fuel is important I agree.

Now really Hoot how many of those Dodges since their HPCR debut are up to 100K miles?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

How would I know but I do know statistically there are a bunch. I read
a few post of guys with well over 100,000. CR has been available since
late 02 in the 03 models. 05's are shipping as we speak.

Unfortunately there is no BROKER on TDR to verify http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif

partsguy662

11-09-2004, 07:24 PM

Hoot, out of curiousity, how effective is the fuel fitration on your
dodge? I know you mentioned the screen filter in the rail, but
have you checked your spin-on filter yet? I just wonder if
dodge/cummins has someting figured out as far as filtration goes that
GM/I-SUE-U doesn't...I know many duramax users have added extra
filtration to their trucks, and still had injector issues......It just
seems to me that fuel has to be causeing the failure somehow..

RonJT

11-09-2004, 07:40 PM

IT would seem to me that having the Dodge HPCR truck--with basically the same injector is an ideal case for us to compare against.

If the Dodge is not having problems--and the injectors are the same--and the same fuel is used--then whatever difference is going on in that truck should help lead to the cause of the problem.

Statistically speaking--we are not ready to compare the trucks yet--because our trucks are in the fourth year and the dodge is in the 1st/2nd year??? Oops Hoot says they are in Production for at least 2years. So we are getting very close. We should be hearing about failures.

One thing that is interesting--(correct me if I am wrong)--the Dodges started out with a coarse and a fine filter and a lift pump???

We just have one filter and no lift pump.

Edited by: RonJT

kool

11-09-2004, 08:08 PM

Swatkins lly

11-09-2004, 08:08 PM

As far as the break down in the middle of nowhere song, this is BS. Any vehicle can leave you at any time for any reason. I see all brands on the side of the road. Actually I never saw a DMax.

Maybe you should talk to my wife, on second thought you would not last two minutes http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif About three minutes into the story of my vacation, she would be so pissed off that anyone, that thinks the way you do, would be dead meat....

sixfoot

11-09-2004, 08:12 PM

If GM put the Cummins in their trucks, they would be perfect! Nothing personnal Hoot, but the only thing Dodges have going for them is the Cummins engine!! The trannys are garbage and they turn into rattle traps after a couple of years.

tophog

11-09-2004, 08:21 PM

Bottom line is, regardless of brand people buy diesels for reliability and longetivity. Afterall that's what diesels are known for. If the majority of new trucks can't go 200K out of the box on stock injectors, something is very wrong. Extended warranties or no extended warranties if the source of problem is not rectified at some point in time people will quit buying the damn things. Or at least those people who aren't content with the extended warranty band-aid to help them feel better or justify their purchase.

Granted, all vehicles have problems, however after all the turmoil over the GM injector issue I bet the majority of owners have that "when are mine going to go?" question floating around the brain which in the end makes one paranoid to drive their trucks any significant distance from home. She sure is pretty sitting in the drive way ...though.

hoot

11-09-2004, 08:41 PM

I think we're all on the same page here. I'm not here to blast GM and hype Dodge.. I know it sounds that way sometimes.

We're all in this together. We want $40,000 worth. I think that's more
than enough to pay and not worry for 200,000 miles with a diesel.

If they can't do it than we're just a bunch of suckers that are hooked
on diesel if we can't stop blowing our hard earned cash on these
things, Ford, GM, Dodge whatever.

Personally I feel alot better letting off some steam about it and
finally having the nerve to tell GM to stick it this time around.

I wish everybody well with their trucks regardless of brand.

Mackin

11-09-2004, 08:49 PM

GM is screwing up,that's all there is to it. Of course their standing behind the problem, a problem that should not exist,what else can they do?

There isn't a handful of failures there are ,you fill in the numbers but 6/8 week wait tells the story.None of us 01,02,03 Duramax owners so far ,should have to deal with a major warranty repair this early on in ownership with such low mileage occurrences.

Like HOOT or not! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

Time will tell if they have corrected the problem,perhaps my next set will get me only to out of warranty,is that what their gambling on?

Compile that with todays diesel prices and it makes you wonder about owning a diesel.

Guess we'll just have to see how it plays out.

Bigwheel

11-09-2004, 09:21 PM

Duramax1:

I dont think it's encouraging to know that your 2004.5 dmax needed #7 injector replaced, and you say " I made it home " to me that is the most embarrassing statement that could be said about this truck. I thought the injector issues were solved starting with 2004, guess not.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif

10K pound load is nothing for todays diesel trucks, lets talk about a totally loaded 34 ft 5th wheel with couple of slide outs...then let's see on getting home.

The one main reason nothing will be done is that the dealships don't have one dmax sitting around, not even used ones for long, in central mn, a dealer sold a 2001 dmax,sb,crew,ls, loaded, with origional 8 injectors already replaced, and 97,000 miles, and they sold it for $19,750...GM see's that their trucks sell, and even used they sell, no reason to fix anything......

Speaking of someone's comment of $40,000 dollars worth, let's see:

Brand new set of billstein shocks, why cant a 40,000 HD truck have a stupid set of shocks for the ride.......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif......

This will seperate us in two areas:

1) The ones that don't care about any problems, will love them forever.......No Matter What...

2) The ones that will just change to prove a point.........

next topic, this is starting to hurt...........http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif

Edited by: Bigwheel

DURAMAX1

11-09-2004, 09:34 PM

Bigwheel. The point I was trying to make is, I made it home ok. I can't speak for the 3 powerstrokes on the road w/tow trucks. Well I will prove you wrong about the 10k load in a couple of days. Just ordered a 35' 5th wheel. Still have the best truck out there.

st_pinetree

11-09-2004, 09:43 PM

GM is screwing up,that's all there is to it. Of course their standing behind the problem, a problem that should not exist,what else can they do?

They could do the same thing Ford has done with Cackle and bad air boxes on the 7.3's - Nothing, they could do what Ford did with the entire 6.0 - Nothing.

They could do what dodge did with their auto tranny's every year up until now. - Nothing.

Again, they all have problems. Wish it weren't true, but it is.

Bigwheel

11-09-2004, 10:45 PM

Duramax 1:

I was only complaining about the need on replacing an injector on a 2004.5, it's just down right frustrating to hear that, thought there was better news about the newest lly revision that's out there. I hear you, very true that you did at laset make it home, some do not make it. Did they give you a reason why you needed #7 injector replaced so soon???

Duramax Dually

11-09-2004, 11:24 PM

Well I see this has turned interesting....and uncomfortable....

Hoot: I understand , Not trying to argue with you, Matter of fact I hope your new truck last for years to come. $40K+ for any vehicle is silly but we continue to pay, they continue to jack up prices and we continue to pay. By the time my daughters are 20, a standard truck will be $85K with a V6......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

The point I made in my earlier posts were not to offend anybody. But we are obsessed with having more or the best. We also expect an awful lot from trucks.

As I have said many times before, GM will fix my truck and I will go on about my business. Sure I could sell and buy something else but what's my confidence that I have eliminated all my problems....NONE! I have swapped evils. But now I have added insult to injury. I have taken the traditional bath that we all do with cars and watch it depreciate to virtually nothing and turned around and started all over, but now paid more. But there still no guarantees. Sure you get a warranty but I still have that with my '01. Right now I am in control of the current situation. I would feel the same way with any vehicle I had purchased. I used this truck hard, but maintained it well. Still has not let me down and is running very good while I wait on injectors. I cannot see trashing the truck when everything else on it is in perfect working order. I refuse to be a vehicle mongrel and buy new out of fear. Your car can take a dive anywhere at anytime. A colleague of mine just bought a new Lincoln Navigator, drove it 746 miles and the tranny said ADIOS!!! So you get AAA and use it when something happens. I am still a little confused why people get upset when cars break down...Sure it sucks, it always happens at the worst time but get it fixed and move on. Even if you spent $100K on your truck with a special guarantee it would not go without breaking...

I was one of the very few that bought an 01 that left it 100% stock, ran additive from the beginning, change fuel filters at 10K miles since 10K miles and maintained it meticulousy and I still got bit. I do not think it is fuel, This sounds like a mechanical issue and a poor design from Bosch.

Carry On

st_pinetree

11-09-2004, 11:25 PM

One of the questions I have is what is exactly the problem? Cracked injector bodies? If I remember correctly from the early reports, this was a big problem. Is it still an issue? What about the "improved" design" that came out in the late 02's? Did that solve the cracked body problem or not? I didn't ask why mine failed. Should have I guess.

Or is it the ball seat erosion? If that is the primary reason for failure, I would think the filtration improvements people have made (and apparently GM is working on) would make a big improvement. Is there anybody here with a late 02 or 03 with additional filtration that has had injector problems?

dmaxalliTech

11-09-2004, 11:44 PM

I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last nighthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif

dmaxalliTech

11-10-2004, 12:02 AM

I just started a thread on a GM forum that GMCSID turned me on to. I linked to this thread. I will post the responses I get.

acehi

11-10-2004, 02:42 AM

I stayed at a holiday inn Express last night... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif OMG, I love it...

I have read on here before about the number of people that join these forums are basically ones that have run into some problems with their vehicles and want to voice their opinions. There are millions of D/A's around the US and only a few thousand that have problems. I still think those odds are pretty good.

In my earlier posts, I was voicing about being concerned of driving this long drive and worried about the injectors, yes I am concerned but with the odds of my trucking breaking down during this one trip, I am not that concerned.

Still everyone has their favorite brand of vehicle. And the ones that have bought the D/A's have to admit somewhere inside themselves that Chevy/GMC is their favorite brand otherwise they wouldn't have spent $40k + for it when they could have bought the Ford or Dodge for $30k+. Me personally, I have always been a chevy lover and always will. I did not like what they did to the front end of the 03's and newer, that avalanch look, but I would still prefer a chevy. On the other hand, I like the looks of the newer Dodge trucks but would never own a dodge because of the history of tranny's on them, and Ford... I just don't like the looks of them. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

Chevy/GMC does have a great product and I feel they do put forth a great effort find a solution.

I work with water jet cutting machines daily and I see how much damage is done to these solid carbide nozzles. We are lucky to run a full week on one nozzle. Yes, the nozzles have the abrasive running through them and that does most of the damage, same as the abrasive in the fuel but much finer. However, there is a jewel orifice just in front of the nozzle that directs the water flow and it has pure water going through it. The water runs through a water softner system, then it runs through 4 sets of filters of which 2 of them are .05 microns. These jewels also wear out but at 1/4th the rate of the nozzles. Our machines run at 50,000 psi continuous which is about twice that of our D/A's. If pure water can destroy a jeweled orifice in one month, then I can only imagine what diesel fuel with only small amounts of dirt can do to these injectors over 50,000 miles. I am guessing the injector bodies are made of carbide or tungsten, anyone know??? Maybe they are still trying to find a material to use that can withstand these high pressures for long term??? That is my guess, I am only basing this guess on my experience of metal working.

Jeff

twest

11-10-2004, 07:46 AM

I did post a poll over at the TDR1 3Gen"s on injector issues ,98 reply"s,78 had no issues,10 had over 100k with no problems,NOT one member had all six replaced,it was one or two, and not a mention of being stranded.Hoot I have to agree with you this is a known problem and a minimum 2 years being aware of it.All things made with hands can fail,but when its a known issue and it within your power to fix it and you don"t.Then it a sign YOU can"t or YOU won"t.Problems will aways develop it how you handle them that COUNTS!!!!!!!.Edited by: twest

Bronco

11-10-2004, 09:43 AM

On the road sitting up in a real 4x4, impressions change.

Hoot, not sure what you mean when you say sitting in a real 4x4? As compared to what?

Anyways this thread is titled " Why injectors are failing?"

1. We have no idea what the failer rate is when compared to the overall amount of Dmax's sold?

2. We have no idea what modifications were made to these vehicles that failed and what part the mods played in the failure.

3. We have no idea what aftermarket products increase injector longjevity.

4. Some real proof would be nice here.

The one thing I know for sure is that waiting more than 2-3 days to have your truck repaired is complete and total b*llsh*t. Any other service buisness in the world would not be in buisness for long if they made you wait more than a week to have your equiptment fixed! Hoot I do agree with you on this point. The manner in which GM is handling there repair cases is less than par.

BTW, if your maintenance is up to date and your truck shows no symptoms, you should be confident in your truck and enjoy driving it. I drove 2200 miles through 5 western states, filled up at many different fuel stations off the beaten path and never worried once.

The truck was a treat to drive and I averaged 20 MPG. ( No load, Power Services DFA, Fruadzilla 50 HP.)Edited by: Bronco

dmax lover

11-10-2004, 01:36 PM

I would think that if the lubricity was the issue, GM would specify in our ever-so-useful owners manualhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif
a fuel additive to thereby increase the lubricity of the fuel we
buy. Like hoot said, it's been over 4 years and nothing new from
Gm as to what is going on here....GM light duty diesel engines have had
a bad rap for over 20 years.....if they don't get it right very soon,
their share of the light diesel truck market is going to suffer....None
of us spent over 30,000$ to have their truck sit at a dealership's
service department...Let's hope for an answer very soon, fellow members

From GM technical bulletin 03-06-04-017

"...some customers may desire to use a lubricity additive to aid in the longevity of their fuel system components. "

If GM admitted that the truck will not run reliably on
available fuel - I betcha that the EPA would make them buy them
back; So you will see statements that it is designed to run on
available fuel - yeah it was designed that way, doesn't mean it's
reliable...

And hoot, better throw some holy water over your truck
on a daily basis - one of the guys arguing for a stricter lubricity
standard in the new ASTM diesel spec was from daimler-chrysler - said
something about needing a tighter standard to protect their new light
duty trucks (that would be your new dodge!) :)

The new ASTM diesel specification becomes
effective Jan 1, 2005. This sets spec of 520 micron HFRR
whereas bosch and daimler-chrysler pushed for 460 micron HFRR (what has
worked in europe). The 520 number is described as a
compromise between the truck mfgrs and the oil industry - not because
it will protect the fuel injection system in our trucks (that includes
you hoot!).

- jeffEdited by: dmax lover

hoot

11-10-2004, 02:07 PM

Good stuff! Keep it coming

Georgecls

11-10-2004, 02:30 PM

Let us not forget that it is not just GM having injector issues. In the past two weeks I have dealt with owner operators and fleet owners who are in the process of replacing electronic injectors on their Cummins, CAT and Detroit Diesel engines.. In some cases with less than 100,000 miles on them at $500/injector.. The classic is a $3,000 "tune up" with 2 injectors repaced, etc. which occurs every 100,000 miles or so of over the road driving..
So, we are NOT alone in this problem..
Going back to page one, paragraph one of 2 years ago:CAT spent 6 figures with Southwest Research to determine why their injectors were not lasting even through warranty..
The pure and simple response from Southwest as "dirt"..
Our disel fuel has not changed from that original discussion..
Not to say that the elimination of dirt will completely cure injector issues but a lot of research has determined contamination to be the #1 cause vs. poor injector design, etc.. If one is running an ISO 23/21/19 diesel fuel, injector/pump failure is a given. Period.......
George Morrison

Bronco

11-10-2004, 02:41 PM

If dirty fuel is the number one cause of failure, it would seem to reason that people who used the dirtiest fuel and also people who used the most fuel would be having the most problems.

I do not know who has the dirtiest fuel but I do know who uses the most fuel.

People who have the highest milage, people who have heavily modified vehicles, people who tow heavy loads, people who accelerate and drive fast. People who live at lower altitudes rather than higher alttitudes. ( due to EPA lean/rich)

So basically the above people should have a much higher failure rate. Do they?

dmaxfan

11-10-2004, 03:04 PM

Georgecls

11-10-2004, 03:21 PM

Certainly I did not say dirt/contamination is the only issue affecting injector/pump life; however, my point is that GM is not the only engine manufacturer with injector/pump issues.. Every manufacturer is having problems/short life..
It is very basic: if one has a 30,000 psi system, it is fundamental that one needs a very clean ISO cleanliness level. Our diesel fuel is not..
Not to say that manufacturing, design, implementation are not there to a degree also..
Which leads to the direct inability to equate high miles, failed injectors, low miles, no problems..
The same exact issues plague Cummins, CAT, etc..
I just received a call (as I was typing this) from a brand new KW/CAT operator who has two failed injectors at 30,000 miles..
George Morrison
George Edited by: Georgecls

dmaxfan

11-10-2004, 03:31 PM

Certainly I did not say dirt/contamination is the only issue affecting injector/pump life; however, my point is that GM is not the only engine manufacturer with injector/pump issues.. Every manufacturer is having problems/short life..
It is very basic: if one has a 30,000 psi system, it is fundamental that one needs a very clean ISO cleanliness level. Our diesel fuel is not..
Not to say that manufacturing, design, implementation are not there to a degree also..
Which leads to the direct inability to equate high miles, failed injectors, low miles, no problems..
The same exact issues plague Cummins, CAT, etc..
I just received a call (as I was typing this) from a brand new KY/CAT operator who has two failed injectors at 30,000 miles..
George Morrison
George

I apologize and should have been more clearer. I agree that fuel cleanliness is an issue. I just meant that I don't believe it is one issue alone. I do agree with you though.

tophog

11-10-2004, 03:44 PM

It sounds like none of the manufacturers or injector companies have a handle on this high-pressure fuel setup regarding US diesel cleanliness. It sounds like everything points to less reliable engines, more warranty work, customer frustration, etc. In the end it isn't clear who wins ...Regardless of the issues, if no one can make a reliable 200K engine why are we fools spending $40K on trucks probably not as reliable then gassers.

Mackin

11-10-2004, 04:06 PM

It will be quite interesting the day we all find out that is for sure.

Yet another observation.

I have one smoked intermediate injector that pounds like nobody's business.Since my LIL dumpster incident the injector has been silent.

Do you guys notice the ones really trouncing their Duramax like Tomac,Black Jet,Brandon aren't having injector issues? Ka-winky-dink? Individualistic? Anyone know of a solid competitor having injector issues?

Maybe we just ALL have to pull and drag race to keep them in balance! Awaiting GM's TSB release!

Edited by: Mackin

Duramax Dually

11-10-2004, 04:06 PM

TopHog,

Us fools spend $40K on a vehicle because we(as consumers) were not told that these items were potential problems. We paid extra for what we thought was going to be a long life set up. Had the sales guy said the best you can hope for with this $40K plus truck is 85-100K miles and it will die, I would have never signed up. But we were all under the premise that Diesel was the way to make power and could handle large loads. Gassers did make sense since the MPG was a horrific(4 mpg vs 12-13mpg towing).

In answering a couple posts back, I was one of those high milers folks. First year I put 47K miles 40 of that was towing an 11K Lb trailer back and forth from Central California to Las Vegas and sometimes to Arizona. I was religious about filter change at 10K miles. My truck has always been 100% stock. This is why I kind of laugh a bit as I hit 96K miles and they are going away. I am slated for the new injectors when they can get them to my dealer. Now I have ran fuel additives since 10K miles, I added the Nicktane kit at 60k miles or so. It appears with all of what is being posted that even with the new injectors the life expectancy will be short. However I will start out with this new set and a much better fuel filtering system in place.

Jeff

dmax lover

11-10-2004, 04:10 PM

Duramax Dually,

Which additive did you use?

thanks,

jeff

tophog

11-10-2004, 04:16 PM

TopHog,

Us fools spend $40K on a vehicle because we(as consumers) were not told that these items were potential problems. We paid extra for what we thought was going to be a long life set up. Jeff

That was the point I was "trying" to make in a round about way. Today people are purchasing $40K diesels based on diesel "history" only to find out the new, modern diesel engines are less reliable then the older engines due to all the fancy high-pressure fuel systems.

So much for the "you get what you pay for" pitch ... It all boils down to quality ... if Toyota made a diesel I'd buy it in a pinch. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

Duramax Dually

11-10-2004, 04:28 PM

DMax Lover: I use FPPF and have in every tankful I have put in.

Tophog: Understood, was making sure we were on the same pagehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

svpdiesel

11-10-2004, 04:36 PM

Does anybody know anyone in Europe who has diesel experience there?
They have been using this type of injection longer than the US, and it
would be interesting to find out what frequency of failure is common
over there. The difference being their higher-quality fuel standards.
This goes back to what George was talking about- dirt being a big
contributor to failure.

dmax lover

11-10-2004, 04:39 PM

TopHog,

Us fools spend $40K on a vehicle because we(as consumers)
were not told that these items were potential problems. We paid
extra for what we thought was going to be a long life set up. Jeff

That was the point I was "trying" to make in a round about
way. Today people are purchasing $40K diesels based on diesel
"history" only to find out the new, modern diesel engines are less
reliable then the older engines due to all the fancy high-pressure fuel
systems.

So much for the "you get what you pay for" pitch ... It all
boils down to quality ... if Toyota made a diesel I'd buy it in a
pinch. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

I wouldn't. The reason I bought american
for the first time was that toyota pissed me
off. I now know why edmunds rates toyota's low
on "value". The quality isn't high enough to justify
the price (or sometimes their attitude).

For the first six months I had my truck - I kept saying "I
am SO glad that toyota pissed me off. I LOVE this truck."

- jeff

ROCKYMTNDMAX

11-10-2004, 04:44 PM

dmax lover

11-10-2004, 04:52 PM

DMax Lover: I use FPPF and have in every tankful I have put in.

Tophog: Understood, was making sure we were on the same pagehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

The reason I asked what additive you used is that
the only additives that I have seen that will take a worst case u.s.
fuel (650 micron wsd on hfrr) to below the number recommended by bosch
(460 micron wsd hfrr) are...

1. Stanadyne Lubricity Formula

2. Stanadyne Performance Formula

3. Shell Rotella DFA.

I want to have fuel that would be around 300 micron wsd on
hfrr - I use stanadyne performance formula year round and mix in
stanadyne performance formula in the winter. I have been
double dosing the lubricity formula in the summer and mixing
stanadyne's lubricity formula and performance formula in the winter.

By the way, Kennedy has said here that he uses both two
stroke oil and marvel mystery oil in his own rig for extra lubricity
(on top of his fppf).

- jeff

p.s. Also wonder whether if you would have got more miles out of her if
you wouldn't have used an emulsifying additive (which gm says to avoid

Edited by: dmax lover

dmax lover

11-10-2004, 05:09 PM

I wish GM and other manufacturers would raise their
standard on fuel filters. Racor could produce almost any filter to meet
tougher standards.

Now you have to ask, is this really the problem? I don't think that
this is the only problem due to so many injector issues with secondary
filtration. I believe it is not just one problem, but a combination of
problems.

I agree with you on the topic of the stock filter. For
one, I wish the stock filter had a non-metallic bowl - like the racor
filter that I added. Also the stock filter is only rated at
45-ish gpm -> I saw a formula in racor's literature to calculate how
much fuel flow is needed - input variable was hp. With
horsepower pushed up alot by a programmer you needed around 60
gpm.

Another thing that I noticed is that racor
states that a filter is less efficient under pressure versus
under vacuum (so much for thinking that lift pump provides better
efficiency). I am seriously thinking about yanking the
stock filter off and replacing it with a racor 460 (with primer and
heat) - does anyone know if the wif and heat will wire up to the
oem leads?

I do agree that there could be more than one
cause. Cleaner fuel is always better and Bosch has
published data on both u.s. fuel quality and pump and injector wear
using this crappy fuel with extremely poor lubricity.

thanks,

jeff

Edited by: dmax lover

hoot

11-10-2004, 05:37 PM

RonJT

11-10-2004, 05:50 PM

I cannot remember who--but I thought someone was thinking of an adapter for the OEM head.

Since Greg's kit splices into the existing system--both wif and heater--I would think that the same could be done with the same kit in the OEM position.

Jeff,

Where is the information about filter performance in Vacuum versus under pressure?

dmaxfan

11-10-2004, 05:59 PM

Georgecls,

Your clean fuel mandate is certainly accepted by the end users but why would manufacturers put out systems that don't deal with known dirty fuel issues?

The Dmax fuel filter is garbage. They supposedly are attempting to fix the injectors but I would have thought the first thing to do is make cleaner fuel. Is this common sense or do they know something we don't know?

How much would it cost to bring ISO levels down to accepted levels for our system? More than it costs to replace all injectors to the point where they can't keep up production levels?

Somebody is dropping the ball in engineering big time. I don't think it's bean counters. I think it's shoddy engineering and poor follow up because I think the way they are dealing with it now is hurting them two fold...... cost and return customers.

Hoot,

Now keep in mind that this is just my take on the situation.

Whenever they built this truck, they had no idea what the long term would look like. They may have kept and tested a truck for mileage issues, but not all trucks have injector issues. I am guessing about 1/5 or 1/7 have injector problems.

Now I am not in any way taking up for them, but there really wasn't a way for them to tell that the design was a flaw for longetivity.

I will give you a great example, Did you know that Ford spent more money on developing the taurus, than Lockheed Martin did for the F-22 stealth fighter?

GM is to blame for not coming up with a feesable solution to this problem for the past four years.

Mackin

11-10-2004, 07:06 PM

SaguaroKid

11-10-2004, 07:08 PM

I don't know but I think they should go to depleted uranium..

hoot

11-10-2004, 07:12 PM

I was just following up on the dirty fuel part of the equation Mac Attack.

How do we even know there are dirty fuel issues when they keep putting new injectors in? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

Got Juice?

11-10-2004, 07:37 PM

Your suffering tunnel vision still and assuming dirty fuel is the problem and forgetting that failure is still happening with more than adequate fuel filtering available.

What type steel is the injector barrel made off?

Mac, I still believe dirty fuel is causing galling within the injector. That would certainly explain the balance rates being off. Also as a side note, since the common rail holds all the fuel@given pressure for all 8 injectors, it is within the realm of possibility that 1 injector can cause enough of a problem to 'red flag' 2 or 3 more injectors through balance rate testing.

To the best of my knowledge, Dipaco has the equipment to test the HPCR injector, as does bosch, but does a GM dealership have the 75,000.00 machine to do it in house on a dealership level? I don't think so. As good as a Tech2 is a lot of times technicians fixing these things end up replacing parts on these trucks from what the tech 2 and pathing tables tell them the problem is. So in some respects it is trial and error to fix the problem and the customer pays. This is also why i suspect GM is replacing a full set of injectors at a time due to the fact a single injector can misdiagnose 2 or 3 more or all of them.

Just a thought. Probably wrong, but just an educated guess from what other people have posted about injector replacements, and the dealership servicing i have witnessedEdited by: Got Juice?

Micheal Tomac

11-10-2004, 10:09 PM

I think the injectors like abuse from pulling and racing

Edited by: mtomac

acehi

11-11-2004, 01:40 AM

RonJT, that was me that was going to make the adapter. I made one and I got the Racor filter to screw on to the adapter. I then worked on the threads for the adapter to screw on to the stock head and I had it fitting my truck so I sent it to another individual (Jody Bays) for him to test it and he could not get it to go on his stock head. He sent it back to me and I worked on it a little more. I think I have it down right but now I am getting ready to move to California in 2 weeks. The movers came and picked up all my stuff so my lathe is in transit to my next location. Once I get there and find a new home to live in, I will get my machine set up again and finish it. I had several people asking for one of these adapters and I am trying to get it done.

Jody Bays, if you read this, I tried emailing you but I get an error on your email address (memory must be bad) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif. My computer crashed a few months ago and I lost all data. I don't remember your nickname here or I would have contacted you sooner. Please reply if your still here.

Jeff

wlkjr

11-11-2004, 08:11 AM

Common sense says if it was a filtration issue, GM would come out and say use a better filter. They could even recall and put new filters on all trucks for what they're spending on replacing 8 injectors. Everyone acts like GM is sitting on their haunches and doing nothing. I'm sure they're doing something to try to counteract this problem. I think they'd really rather build a good truck and get it right the first time. As George said, other manufacturers are having problems also, so it's not just a GM issue. It really doesn't make sense why some fail at low mileage with every filtration and precaution taken and some haven't failed yet with high mileage with no secondary filtration. Go figure. Apparently it has stumped some pretty good minds so far. In the meantime it's a waiting game.

OC_DMAX

11-11-2004, 08:34 AM

wlkjr wrote:
Common sense says if it was a filtration issue, GM would come out and say use a better filter. They could even recall and put new filters on all trucks for what they're spending on replacing 8 injectors.

Thats exactly what GM / DMAX Limited appears to be doing. There is a new replacement OEM fuel filter that Racor makes that is about to hit the market that appears to provide better filtration. The only problem is they are 5 years into production!!!!! So if you have a five year old truck, you have been running with marginal filtration for five years!

Obviously, this whole injector issue is very complex from an engineering point of view. GM does not want to produce a repair prone vehicle any more than you or I want to own one (and you can bet the CFO of GM would rather have the $millions$ that they have spent on the warranty expenses on this injector issue still in GM bank account)

There is not just one problem. There are a number of contributing issues: lubricity of fuel, materials and process problems in manufacturing injector bodies, fuel cleanliness (and marginal OEM fuel filter performance). All these issues can create a failure. A very tough issue to deal with.Edited by: OC_DMAX

Georgecls

11-11-2004, 09:23 AM

And again, with respect to manufacturer's goals: making it through warranty is Job #1.. After warranty, problems become profit centers.. Just go visit any Cummins/Cat/Detroit diesel shop and you will see smiles on shop foremen's faces.. Injector change-outs are a significant profit center for these repair stations..
And frankly, without the injector business, these shops would have very little business! The engines themselves are wonderfully reliable, as with our Duramax engine..
The electronic fuel injector systems are the achilles heels of ALL current diesel engines..
George MorrisonEdited by: Georgecls

hoot

11-11-2004, 12:33 PM

The electronic fuel injector systems are the achilles heels of ALL current diesel engines..

George Morrison

In other words they are putting out junk and know it. No matter how
great the specs are and all the wonderful things these systems are
capable of, the system not lasting 100,000 miles in a diesel takes away
a big part of the original intention of buying one.

SaguaroKid

11-11-2004, 01:02 PM

Perhaps the government had a role to play in regards to tighter emmisions, then the auto industy reacted with the high p.s.i. fuel system. That does not mean we should be left holding the bag though. I believe they have had enough time to correct the engineering or dirty fuel problem or what ever. Hell, their having problems with the LLY! We as consumers are in the drivers seat until we commit to a product then the corporations are in the drivers seat dictating to us what they will do or will not do to correct their errors. That's what blisters me.

tophog

11-11-2004, 01:06 PM

The electronic fuel injector systems are the achilles heels of ALL current diesel engines..
George Morrison

In other words they are putting out junk and know it. No matter how great the specs are and all the wonderful things these systems are capable of, the system not lasting 100,000 miles in a diesel takes away a big part of the original intention of buying one.

DITTO DITTO DITTO!

jcummins

11-11-2004, 01:56 PM

a DITTO here too!

Mackin

11-11-2004, 03:35 PM

Then whats the sense in using additives and additional finner filtering into spec?

What is the failure rate in European common rail?

tophog

11-11-2004, 04:52 PM

Then whats the sense in using additives and additional finner filtering into spec?

What is the failure rate in European common rail?

Prolong the inevitable?

jholly

11-11-2004, 05:25 PM

Thats exactly what GM / DMAX Limited appears to be doing. There is a new replacement OEM fuel filter that Racor makes that is about to hit the market that appears to provide better filtration.

sounds good, but how about all the folks that added extra filtration and still have the injectors fail? I think there is something that missing from the injector failing disscussion that does not include filtering or addatives.

Jim

tophog

11-11-2004, 05:35 PM

IMO the so-called "New" filter, assuming it's indeed better regarding filtration compared to the existing filters, ... is a tourniquet to reduce the "bleeding" the injectors are causing GM ... it may help but based on the history of the injector problems and the lack of any accurate failure pattern the injector problem won't go away with the release of the new filter. Band-aids, band-aids band-aids ...

hoot

11-11-2004, 05:48 PM

The knowledge was already in place when they designed the Dmax, that the fuel cleanliness would be an issue.

GM used what they claim is a 2 micron filter but when tested by customers, proved to be far from it.

I get the feeling GM/Dmax made an assumption that the injection system
would generally make it to 150,000 to 200,000 miles... the actual
projected life.

At that point they would have sold so many trucks and the feedback
would have been overwhelming FOR this engine and that failures at that
mileage would be deemed "expected" and profitable for dealerships.

But somehow the testing was inadequate or they got caught up in
manufacturing inconsistancies, and the fix turned out to be out of the
threshold of cost and design.

They really surprised us all. We thought the Dmax was going to be it and the tranny would be questionable.

Edited by: hoot

st_pinetree

11-11-2004, 06:26 PM

Well, somebody knows the answers, but I doubt we'll know out here in consumerland for quite some time.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif

Duramax Dually

11-11-2004, 08:48 PM

I am one that added secondary filtration and mine are going away. I left mine stock and it did not matter. I bought from quality gas stations and when I cut my fuel filter they looked clean and no rust. I changed them every 10K miles.

I do find it funny after all those brutal towing miles I did for the first 85K miles that I stop and 11K miles later they go away....Maybe the injectors do like being abused.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif

Whatever happened to Broker.....??? He had a couple of various trucks with 200- 300K miles and only complained about alternators, seats and 1 rearend...Can they really last the long? he had a truck that he claimed went 300K plus and his was manufactured 5-01 like mine...

On another note, My neighbor and I were chatting the other night. He has a CAT powered Diesel pusher motorhome, He had his fuel system take a dive. Has not heard what it is yet. Again under warranty....I told him about my truck...He thinks this is happening because of the demand for the diesel trucks to be quieter and cleaner

OH Well....A bigger problem than any of us wil be able to solve. We have to wait for the fix....How about a triple filter Nicktane kit down the frame rail.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

Mackin

11-11-2004, 09:21 PM

Broker is like the Bosch injectors~ Has no information for us and comes and goes.

AussieDMAX

11-11-2004, 09:22 PM

Earlier in this thread someone asked about experience outside the US. Some time ago I checked with the two main Chevy/GMC conversion companies here in Australia. Obviously the size of sample is small (my guess would be since introduction approx. 40-50 Dmaxes were imported and converted for right hand drive; part of these imports are used, low mileage trucks, the rest is new). Between the two companies they had seen 1 injector problem ("a guy who used diesel from his own storage tank at his farm...."). Both companies were surprised to hear of injector problems in Dmaxes......... I took delivery of my (new) truck in May this year (an LB7 built in Nov.2003). To be on the safe side I just added a Nicktane filter. Again the sample is small and I am not suggesting Aussie diesel is any better than what you guys put in your tanks..... I just thought to pass this piece of info on.

NWDmax

11-11-2004, 09:22 PM

An aquaintance of mine just had his injectors done on his 02 with 40k on the odometer.He owns a medium duty truck dealership in Yakima Wa. and its the 5th set they've done.The dealer that did the replacement said that the the replacements were a japanese brand and not Bosch.Is there any truth to this claim?

I told him no way but.......

Blake

Bigwheel

11-13-2004, 12:46 AM

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif

I JUST SAVED 15% ON MY TRUCK INUSURANCE BY SWITCHING TO GEICO!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif....

With that kind of savings maybe I could get a extended warranty.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gifEdited by: Bigwheel

Duramax Dually

11-14-2004, 12:02 AM

NWDmax: Here is something interesting I heard. There was some chit chat that the replacement units are made by Nippodenso(sp?) I do not know if this is a good or bad thing to be honest......

Here is another tid bit. I was up by Yosemite Friday and Saturday. Happen to see a 2002 LB7 powered Ambulance. I got to talking to the drivers and the ambulance had 160K miles and not had one problem short of a few little things. They both liked the truck and said it hauls butt. So here you have an ambulance in a severe duty always and no injector problems. With all the speculation this is a weird deal.

As a Process Development Engineer by profession, if I was put in a position to identify the failure mechanism this would take a full on DOE. The variables in this case would make this an extensive project which I suspect is why GM and others have not come out with the a root cause analysis. It is not easy to identify, especially since it is not a catastrophic failure. It appears to be about 15-20% and from all years and motor types. Is it materials, Process, Use or Environment...I bet it is all 4, but which one carries the larger weight?????http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

Gooooooooood Friggen Luck...... Tagachi L- 16, maybe L-32 with numerous hypothesis....Maybe by 2008 we will know....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif

NWDmax

11-14-2004, 12:28 AM

Duramax Dually:Where did you hear the "chit chat" and do you believe it?

My dealer friend is reliable but he is an owner/med duty truck salesman and not a nuts and bolts type.

Their dealership doesn't do the injector repairs during the warranty
period since they don't get reimbursed by GM. He was just passing on
info the tech or service writer had given him.So it is kind of 3rd hand
speak to be taken with a grain of salt.Just trying to clarify.

Blake

a bear

11-14-2004, 01:21 AM

Maybe the Ambulances get the good stuff. The entire Acadiana Ambulance fleet have been Duramax powered for the past 2 years. When I attended First Responder training earlier in the year I inquired about the DMax to a couple of Medics. (instructors) They said all the units that they knew of never had any major issues. Acadiana is the largest fleet here in the South. I would guess to say they have in the neighborhood of +- 500 units.

Idle_Chatter

11-14-2004, 09:27 AM

Whew! just read the entire 7 pages - some very good stuff. My August/2001 truck has been showing some signs of age (lopey idle, a bit more noise, some drop in economy) but oil pressure is still solid, no smoke and still pulling strong. Running FPPF, a Kennedy Mega post-OEM and a Juice/Attitude at level 3/4 all the time and I am very optimistic at 93,400 miles.

A couple of items: I think that Nippondenso is probably making the solenoid coils for Bosch - not the injectors. Also, on the question of electronic injectors being a given-to-fail, that may be very true. Not only do they experience the high pressures of Common Rail, but are also subjected to severe duty cycling with the high power/temperature solenoids and pilot-injection. Does it not make sense that the benefits of quieter, more efficient, less polluting, more powerful and more economical performance over a less sophisticated injection system would take its toll? Racing engines require teardown and service after nearly every event. Fighter aircraft engines have very short hours between overhaul. A four cylinder mechanical injected Rover diesel will go 500,000 miles on filthy fuel without an injector failure - but you won't find Mackin waxing one, Tomac racing one or anyone pulling a 35' fiver over the Rockies with it!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif

hoot

11-14-2004, 11:18 AM

Tom..

Others in the know have also said similar things.. more power = more
fuel running throught these engines. So we have more dirty fuel running
through more sophisticated and less tolerant injection systems.

You would look at that as less life. But then so would the design
engineers. If they design it to go 200,000 miles without a major
failure that it should do just that. Otherwise you're lying to the
customers. They need to revise it to 100,000 miles in my opinion. Than
all would be good, right? Than we would say hey, it's doing exactly
what they claimed. Right now it's not.

Blue Max

11-14-2004, 04:24 PM

I don't think they (GM) know what the cause is or how to fix it. If you look at that injector replacement thread I think the new trucks are having more problems than the old ones and with less mileage.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif

OC_DMAX

11-14-2004, 05:45 PM

<span style="font-weight: bold;">Hoot wrote: "If they design it to go 200,000 miles without a major
failure that it should do just that. Otherwise you're lying to the
customers. They need to revise it to 100,000 miles in my opinion. Than
all would be good, right? Than we would say hey, it's doing exactly
what they claimed. Right now it's not</span>."

IMHO, they also need to disclose to the new vehicle buyer the expected
costs to replace 8 injectors at the 100K mile interval. Most
first time Bosch HPCR diesel buyers have no idea that the repair cost
is in the $4,000 range.