I have talked to people that have installed them. I have seen NO gains. Bigger injectors dump more fuel than the airflow can handle IMHO. The people that I have talked to would never do it again. I have not seen any gains at all. Is this a big hype sell you something you are better without? I will look into the markup of this hype and see what some of you guys have been sold. Need opinions from you guys.

mike

Judging by the amount of black smoke I saw at the dyno event you sponsored earlier in the year, I would venture to say your absolutely correct. Larger injectors would probably create just a bigger cloud of black smoke (just earlier). I would think a better investment in time/dollars would be in a larger turbocharger (to move more air). Must be a hard to do though, since I have not read about too many people changing the turbo to get more air (or for that matter anyone selling a aftermarket kit). Edited by: OC_DMAX

Was the misspelling in the subject a mistake or on purpose? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


I've got aftermarket injectors from John Kennedy. Day to day driving they made the truck a bit more responsive and a whole lot smokier. I can turn off all the programming and go back to stock (except the injectors) and pull with about 80hp more than stock while maintaining the same EGTs as I did when stock. In this way they were an imrpovement.


When adding any of the larger programming boxes to the injectors they don't help at all. I'd almost be inclined to say they hurt. If extra air (NO2) is added though they definitely shine through.


I have however been running them with no lift pump of any nature and after recently aqcuiring a tech 2 it's extremely obvious that something is needed (the pump are sitting in the shop now). My truck has seen a low of 8,000 actual rail pressure with a demanded of 22,800 psi and this weekend while racing with the new TTS extreme that just rolled in I was seeing similar results. A few weeks ago we put the tech 2 on another tts extreme equipped truck with two fuel pumps and his rail pressure never dropped below 18,000 and that was only for one frame on the tech 2. It immediately climbed to match the desired and remained there until he let off at 100mph. The trucks are otherwise the same on the fuel system.


Reading the forums I was convinced I needed a pump before I could see the tech 2 results for myself. I can't say for sure that it will actually improve my 1/4 mile times but I have a very good feeling it will. I don't want to turn this thread into another fuel and pump discussion.


My opinion for those considering injectors, don't do it unless you already have NO2 on your truck, or a larger turbo. I don't have all the answers. I just try things and find out what does and doesn't work. Try to learn as I go.

mike, you have seen no gains on trucks running nitrous or a bigger turbo?

So far some very good answeres. Bigger turbo should come first to burn what we have. If, after that you feel that you are lean, then address that problem.

mike

I think that is incorrect, Mike. Everyone who has put aftermarket injectors in that I know of have seen plenty of gains. Using injectors instead of programming is simply a different path to the same goal.....more hp/tq. I think there are a few benefits of injectors over programming as well as some drawbacks. The smoke would be pretty much uncontrolable, unless you had a custome tune....I guess the Juice/Attitude could help a bit utilizing the low boost feature.and I guess fuel mileage might suck..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif.. I guess you wouldn't have any timing rattle prone to certain tunes.....but,saying more fuel in the optimum window being bad is kind of like trying to substitute cubic inches on a gasser. Of course this is all just opinion as I have never driven a Duramax with xx% over injectors.


Edited by: BIG DIPPER

I am only asking questions here. Has anyone run faster with aftermarket injectors? Has anyone actually seen more power on a dyno? ( injectors only ) I know they can help, I just question how much by themselves.

mike

Moderation is the key IMHO. That and a bit more boost.


For the same reasons you "need" a lift pump, injectors can benefit. More fuel in less time...

Injectors are a valid part of any power building program. From a baseline perspective they add power. I gained about 70 ponies on my baseline with the injectors. The truck seems to idle smoother, starts easier and has better low end power with the performance injectors.


The job is a big one and not easy but I would do it again.


They do smoke more than stock but when you can easily fog out a lane with the stockers and a big program who can really tell? The only scenario where you won't see a gain with them is if you already have a big power tune, we already know we are out of air just with programming. Add a bigger turbo or twins or a bottle and the injectors are worth every penny.


My truck is faster on just diesel with the injectors.


You can add forty over injectors and come close to 500 horsepower with a "conservative" tune but I think that most of the people running them are slated towards the more aggresive end of the power spectrum.


Just my N20 cents..... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif

from what i've read i don't think they're worth it unless you're
spraying. it seems some people have dyno'd slightly higher on #2
only prior to injectors, but they shine when you add the NOS. i
just like being able to turn down the smoke if i want to. People
like super diesel have proved you can make some very high #'s w/o
injectors.. once we have more turbo options and a better IP their
value will most likely elevate.. perhaps in the future people
will write custom tunes for the injectors but there would have to be
some decent demand for that to happen.

Over done injectors simply dump more fuel for a given demand squirt from the PCM. Fuel is only useful if you have the air and the timing to burn it. The extra black smoke you see putting injectors on an otherwise stock truck shows that you don't have enough of both to take advantage of all the fuel. We probably see some gains to the extent that the stock PCM settings are set with enough advance to burn "air friendly" clean which is probably a bit lean and the extra exhaust may be bring a bit more air through the trubo than the stock setup anticipates. The dramtic increase in black smoke though is telling you that most of the fuel is being wasted.


So injectors by themselves are brute force with a fraction of the power you'd get out of controlling timing and boost with the same amount of fuel.


The injectors start to shine when you stack power adders which are starting to push the limits of stock injectors to deliver fuel consistantly and you're actually taking advantage of the timing and boost control to burn all of that additional fuel. Once again though, the demand for fuel from the stacking and the over done injectors is still providing more fuel than the combo can use efficiently. We need more air at this point.


They really shine when you run a dry shot kit which is finally getting to the point of being able to fully use all of the fuel that is being dumped. The injectors provide the security blanket fuel for a dry kit to avoid going too lean and hurting yourself. The kit is your air in a bottle and the shot will have a higher total hit in a FI application than you would anticipate with a NA setup. We'd expect to see a 1.5-2 times the power out a given shot size on FI car not to mention the spooling impact. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif


The real key will be a true user controlled programing package like LS1 Edit for those that are familar with that tool. There is no substitution for application specific tune applied on the dyno. While there is probably still more power to be made for the guys that are pushing the stock turbo today, they really will need the hands on tuning tools to work with a twin or big single turbo setup in the future. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif


Rick

Speed, did you have twin CP3's or lift pumps?... I may have gotten that a little mixed up from the wording....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif





Burner--------------->http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif

They aren't all that smoky either depending on how big you go and how much box you run with them...

I dont have anything really intelligent to add because I am only an installer of these, not a Dr off....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif


But, from what I have seen, the guys doing it are the "addicted crowd" You know who you are.


I have witnessed a set of 20's make a very even additional 50 hp over stock all the way up the power band. I dont think going bigger then that is a huge gain, but again, I am the installer, not the thinker.


Would I do it to mine? Sure, Whats a couple hours work cost me? Not much, just the cost of having the rework done... Hmmmm


I might just order some and put em in just to add to my sighttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif

Just installed a set of ~18's on a truck.... Only using a HJAT, the difference is very noticable on the street... I think part of the help in noticing something is the quality of the upgrade..


Some that I have put in were just replacment nozzles in a baggy, still had carbon on the tips. The ones that I think make better power are on the injector, assembled, tested and flowed on a test stand.. The percentage is documented on a flow bench and the readings are included... Others are just what ever they decide to rate them at I think...

And here I always thought a hole was a hole.........





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif





Edit: and on a serious note.....we know who has the flow matched units.....care to tell who has the crusty ones that have questioanble quality?Edited by: ratlover

How many holes?


Edited by: Burner

But now we are talking about enlarging emhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif.....with some sorta extruded grit I think is the prefered method right now right? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif I thought a smaller hole was better for....er....atomaization? Definatly cant go too big or performance will suffer, a fine line of big enough or too small. And it will likely be different for each truck what is optimum. Kinda like the 3 bears....too big, too small, ahhhh just right.

This injector company might work for you guys....


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/BMDMAX/2004-10-28_120431_injectorv.JPG

Well.....that was some fine reading............. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif


(what did they say ? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif )

And here I always thought a hole was a hole.........





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gif





Edit: and on a serious note.....we know who has the flow matched units.....care to tell who has the crusty ones that have questioanble quality?





KD has the quality flow matched units.

I've got four reasons to keep my mouth shut about the place in Texas that supplied some crusty nozzles...


Uno, Doas, Trace, Quad-ro,.....

Eric
You spell like old people make love. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif

mike http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

I aint as close to the border as you my southern friendhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif


I think I got my point across on where the crusty injector nozzles come from though

I know talking to John he sells the flow matched deals and thinks that that is a very big deal.


Mystery abounds on who is peddeling the crusty injectors. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif So what are the 4 reasons? Why do I have a sudden craving for carrots?