Trying to get some info on how much the Edge Juice with Attitude will reduce the "life expectantcy" of my engine. I have to drive this truck for a mininum of 5 yrs, and was wondering if it will hold up for that amount of time, or will there be excessive wear and tear? I know alot of guys on here run this tuner, so your opinions will be greatly appreciated.


Russ

Well I have had mine for one year, and my truck loves it. I change the oil on a regular basis, and my fuel filter as well. I have had the oil analyzed and it comes back great each time. I am hard on my truck. It looks beautiful, but it is a farm truck that gets beat on each day. HARD!!!!!!!

It is very reasonable to assume a reduction in life of a boosted
engine. How much ids the big question though as they have not been
around long but it would be very nieve to think that there is zero
reduction in life expectancy here. Only time will tell how much there
is.

It is very reasonable to assume a reduction in life of a boosted engine. How much ids the big question though as they have not been around long but it would be very nieve to think that there is zero reduction in life expectancy here. Only time will tell how much there is.


Pretty much have to agree here and add that the reduction may be similar to all means of increasing power output, not just Edge.

Read here:





http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13335&K (http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13335&KW=neverenuf) W=neverenuf

It is very reasonable to assume a
reduction in life of a boosted engine. How much ids the big question
though as they have not been around long but it would be very nieve to
think that there is zero reduction in life expectancy here. Only time
will tell how much there is.


Pretty much have to agree here and add that the reduction may be similar to all means of increasing power output, not just Edge.



I fully agree and there is not just the engine life that is up for debate, there is the life of the "Ally" as well.

I have to disagree on any serious shortening of the engine life or durability. My main reason is that although I have been running an Edge for two years now I am not a "thrasher." I drive very conservatively and feel very strongly that the Edge is not only NOT damaging my engine and trans but may actually be BENEFICIAL to the longevity of my truck (which I am planning to drive for a very long time!) The Edge does not "boost" the engine. It varies injection timing and duration which is only changing the normal function of the injectors - not producing higher injection rail pressures, not pushing injector performance out of standards and not changing turbo function in any way (on my LB7, anyway). One of the reasons that I think it may be beneficial is that it so dramatically improves drivability and smooths out performance in the low and mid ranges. The factory tune must be very emissions conscious and will "starve" the engine at lower speeds and boost to try and prevent an emissions "spike." This caused my truck to be very difficult to drive in slick or wet conditions stock, because you would add throttle with no response until the ECM saw enough boost and then would get a "surge" as the computer allowed fuel which caused my rear wheels to break traction unexpectedly in slippery corners. This is shocking the driveline, something that my Edge eliminated entirely. I think that the Edge programming contains many positive non-competition aspects that I am continuing to enjoy. Of course, if you are flogging your truck and pushing the engine and tranny to the limits - the added power of the Edge will definitely allow you to damage your trans and shorten the life of your truck - but I think it's just wrong to think that the Edge is destructive if used rationally. Edited by: Idle_Chatter

When you take more power out of a engine you are boosting it whether it
is from actually boost or added fuel in the case of a diesel. Either
way you develop more internal strain on engine part because more torque
is being routed and if extra fuel is added there is more byproducts in
oil from combustion and more pressure, friction and strain on rings too
from this. Then you have to route this power to the drive wheels.
It does take a toll and wheter it takes 1 year or 5 off of a engine or
trannies life, it does none the same but given the short time the
engine and tranny has been on the market their is not data really
availible to assess the impact. @ tears "boosted" means little as you
can drive a gasser for 2 years and never change the oil and it will
still run (maybe not for much longer but it will run) so more time is
needed to find out the true impact but rest assured there is one
because there is no free lunch here.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, snoman, because taking a machine like the DMax/Allison and operating it within its design and performance capabilities by improving the control programming can only be better - just like the opposite of running less efficient programming (once again within the design and performance capabilities of the machine) can be negative. Good tuning is good tuning and does good things. Bad tuning is bad tuning and does not do good things. I think Edge tuning, used conservatively, is good tuning and I hope to prove it in a few more years and another hundred thousand miles.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, snoman, because taking a machine like the DMax/Allison and operating it within its design and performance capabilities by improving the control programming can only be better - just like the opposite of running less efficient programming (once again within the design and performance capabilities of the machine) can be negative. Good tuning is good tuning and does good things. Bad tuning is bad tuning and does not do good things. I think Edge tuning, used conservatively, is good tuning and I hope to prove it in a few more years and another hundred thousand miles.


FWIW, with any tuner you are operating outside of the design parameters, that's kinda the point isn't it?

FWIW, with any tuner you are operating outside of the design parameters, that's kinda the point isn't it?





Not quite, the error in the "power added is damage caused" argument is that you are operating at full (or enhanced) power and added Hp/Torque ALL THE TIME. You are actually operating the engine over a continuously varying range of power and actually at low to mid ranges nearly 90% of the time. Even with altered timing and injection pulses, you are within the pressure/temperature/vibration/stress/fatigue DESIGN PARAMETERS of the engine AND the engine is making better utilization of a LOWER range of Hp/torque than stock because of the better tuning. If you are not doing full-throttle runs, brake boost burnouts or foot-to-the-floor running all the time the Edge is only "tweaking" the timing, injection pulses and shift points. This is the "good tuning" of which I speak, that take some of the poorly programmed stock coding to a better place, like low end smoothness and more tractable and efficient mid-range torque when towing. I don't know why people can't differentiate that a power-adder does not add power all the time, only when demanded by driving conditions and driver input - if the overall effect smooths out performance, there is less need to demand periodic and repetitive stress demanded by the constraints in the stock tuning.

Even with altered timing and injection pulses, you are within the pressure/temperature/vibration/stress/fatigue DESIGN PARAMETERS of the engine


Just curious, not trying to start something, but what method did you use to come to this conclusion.

I come to that conclusion based upon that fact that the engine has peak Hp/torque design numbers. These numbers, like all numbers are within standard engineering margins. There are no mechanical designs that do not have margins. We know that these margins are sometimes substantial, as evidenced by the amount of additional power and performance bombers are pulling out of engines without immediate failure. By using alternative tuning to vary existing electro-mechanical functions without violating the basic functions (an injector is a "switch" it is designed to be turned on and off a designed number of times across a designed number of rpm/injection intervals - turning it on a microsecond earlier and back off a microsecond late means nothing to the switch, AND it is still ONE on/off cycle in the life of the injector that it has designed in.) The Driveline is designed to take a max peak Hp/torque, as is all the connecting mechanicals (with margin.) Under the peak - the system is not absorbing any more Hp/torque at 60% throttle with no Juice than it is absorbing at say 48% throttle with the added timing/fuel of the Juice! The forces are varied and spread out over substantial periods of time. With the exception of extreme flogging, pushing hard at very intensely applied short periods of time AND knowingly exceeding the designed margins such as very high Hp/torque applied to the 5th gear clutches in the Alli. I don't do that, I don't go there, my Juice usage probably NEVER EXCEEDS stock Hp/torque values - just at slighty different times in the infinitely variable combinations of power/load/speed. So, how am I shortening the life of my engine just by merely having an Edge installed? I have shifted a completely normal set of parameters without increasing them or changing their implementation - just their timing. Having a Juice installed does not mean that my tie rod ends will bend and fail sooner than stock ones. Doing a brake-boost 4wd burnout will bend and fail my tie rod ends.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif I don't do that.Edited by: Idle_Chatter

These numbers, like all numbers are within standard engineering margins. What is standard for a margin?


There are no mechanical designs that do not have margins. Actually there are, but they are not sold to consumers, that I'm aware of.


turning it on a microsecond earlier and back off a microsecond late means nothing to the switch, Injectors have duty cycles and it is possible to hurt an injector with too long a pulse width, although I don't believe Edge does.


I don't do that, I don't go there, my Juice usage probably NEVER EXCEEDS stock Hp/torque values, I guess you use the juice then to keep from having to push the pedal all of the way to the floor?


So, how am I shortening the life of my engine just by merely having an Edge installed? Maybe your not, I believe you MAY be by exceeding the stock power levels for a given RPM etc.


I'm not trying to beat on you. I run TST's comp box myself. Just about nothing I own is stock. Stock is just not as much fun as modified. I due however realize that sometimes you play, you pay. It's my truck to do with as I please, just as your's is. I will not advise someone that there will be no increased wear if they increase the power output of their truck by as much as 50%. There could be if it is used. I use mine, very frequently as a matter of fact, what would be the point otherwise? BTW I won't be able to check the BB until Mon. I only do this at slack times at workhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif

It has been proven that higher rpms increase wear.

Higher loads increase wear.

Higher loads stress parts more.

Burnt clutches don't last as long as unburnt ones.



No doubt in my opinion a power adder decreases engine and transmission
life. Don't even think it could increase or be good for it unless you
were so poorly tuned from the factory that it compromised engine life
in itself. That's what I think Idle Chatter is referring to. What's the
point in a Juice if you're not really using it? But I don't think the
Dmax is badly tuned to start with.



Some would say if you baby an engine it's not good for it.

If you run it like Broker it lasts a good long time but not as long as a Cummins http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

Well............


I will not try to debate whether or not it will or won't shorten life.......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif


I could drive it completely stock and be very careful and never change the oil........http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif.......


I could drive it slightly modified and kid myself that some 16 year old who just got his license won't smash into me......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley18.gif


I could assume that a dirt bag won't steal my RED TRUCK because it's a stinky diesel........


I could assume that GM built me a good one and it will run forever......or maybe just beyond warranty.......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif


I could drive it like I stole it, maintain it properly, and buy a transmission that holds the power....and be happy........


Just so you don't think I'm being a "WISE GUY", I believe that if mtomac and kingd and Mackin and Sdaver and Super Diesel and Trippin and Diesel Power and Heartbeatcanada and Diesel5 and so many others, myself included have not destroyed our engine.........


Well what else can I say.......


Power it up and enjoy...





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/hihi.gifNY

It is an amazing engine... physically.

It is not a question if increasing HP by 50% will reduce engine life, because it will. How much? 1%? 2%? 10%? 50%? Not enough data to support any number. Engines wear as a function of dirt, oil pressure, piston speed, temperature, and combustion pressure. Change those values, and you change engine life. It has been argued that turning your engine off and on causes the most wear that an engine ever sees.


The real question should be: Will my engine grenade prematurely because I put a single 125HP box on it? I would say the evidence points to no.

I think this debate actually goes deeper than the question would lead you to beleive. I would beat that peoples answer to this question closely parralles their philosphy on life. You can live your life conservatively...never take any risks and do everything by the book...and then one day get hit by a greyhound bus going 80 mph as you step off your front porch. Then you could spend eternity looking back and relize you never really lived a day in your life. Conversely...you could have fun in moderation.....have a blast while you are here...and spend eternity looking back and say....damn, now that was a blast! Okay...off the soap box....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif

I think this debate actually goes deeper than the question would lead you to believe. I would beat that peoples answer to this question closely parallels their philosophy on life. You can live your life conservatively...never take any risks and do everything by the book...and then one day get hit by a greyhound bus going 80 mph as you step off your front porch. Then you could spend eternity looking back and realize you never really lived a day in your life. Conversely...you could have fun in moderation.....have a blast while you are here...and spend eternity looking back and say....damn, now that was a blast! Okay...off the soap box....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif


I LIVE MY LIFE LIKE THIS IS MY LAST DAY.............


As my father always told me and my brother


" I am spending your inheritance every day "


Ya gotta live life, or like you say..........you may look back and wish you did things and then never had the chance to........


Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

dpower,



Well said.



Dennis

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, snoman,
because taking a machine like the DMax/Allison and operating it within
its design and performance capabilities by improving the control
programming can only be better - just like the opposite of running less
efficient programming (once again within the design and performance
capabilities of the machine) can be negative. Good tuning is good
tuning and does good things. Bad tuning is bad tuning and does
not do good things. I think Edge tuning, used conservatively, is
good tuning and I hope to prove it in a few more years and another
hundred thousand miles.



To make more power output you have to delevope more cylinder pressure
and/or for a longer period of time which also increases the amount of
friction on rings and side thrush wear on pistons. It also puts more
pressure on engine bearing for a longer period of time and adds heat to
oil from additional shearing friction in oil from pressure. You simply
cannot (though many would like to believe you can) tkae a lot more
power out of a Dmax without some side effect to it and the tranny. This
is a fact of mechanics and designs. The only question is how much it
does not whether it does or does not. Being in denial does not change
the physics of this action.

I think this debate actually goes deeper than the
question would lead you to beleive. I would beat that peoples answer to
this question closely parralles their philosphy on life. You can live
your life conservatively...never take any risks and do everything by
the book...and then one day get hit by a greyhound bus going 80 mph as
you step off your front porch. Then you could spend eternity looking
back and relize you never really lived a day in your life.
Conversely...you could have fun in moderation.....have a blast while
you are here...and spend eternity looking back and say....damn, now
that was a blast! Okay...off the soap box....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif



I like that filosofy

But of course the most important question is:


Will a DMax hold together long enough to get it to a Dodge dealership to trade it in?


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

Caterpillar had a published study out on their 3406 engine on durability VS power.


In a nutshell a 150HP 3406 would last 4 times longer than a 425hp 3406


Here is the kicker. Mechanical failures only made up a 5% early demise for the 425hp engines.... 2% for the 150hp engines. The study indicated that it was not so much of a mechanical per se failure that caused the 425 hp engine to not last as long.


IT WAS FUEL! or better put fuel quality. More fuel = more power = more fuel borne contaminants running through the engine. Their study went on to conclude that most diesel engine failures were attributable to fuel system failure exacerbated by the fuel requirements of the 425hp engine more than any other issue.


This makes sense.

Caterpillar had a published study out on their 3406 engine on durability VS power.


In a nutshell a 150HP 3406 would last 4 times longer than a 425hp 3406


Here is the kicker. Mechanical failures only made up a 5% early
demise for the 425hp engines.... 2% for the 150hp engines. The
study indicated that it was not so much of a mechanical per se failure
that caused the 425 hp engine to not last as long.


IT WAS FUEL! or better put fuel quality. More fuel = more
power = more fuel borne contaminants running through the engine.
Their study went on to conclude that most diesel engine failures were
attributable to fuel system failure exacerbated by the fuel
requirements of the 425hp engine more than any other issue.


This makes sense.



THere is a difference between complete failure and a loss of power and
high oil consumption from premature wear too which you did not mention.
(maybe report did not either) It is well know that injector failures in
a diesel spilling excess raw fuel into crankcase oil can take out even
a new engine.

Edited by: snoman

If i could get my mitts on that PDF report again i would post it!


Good Reading in it.

Trying to get some info on how much the Edge Juice with Attitude will reduce the "life expectantcy" of my engine. I have to drive this truck for a mininum of 5 yrs, and was wondering if it will hold up for that amount of time, or will there be excessive wear and tear? I know alot of guys on here run this tuner, so your opinions will be greatly appreciated.


Russ





The original question seems to have been, will adding power by adding an edge box reduce the life expectancy of the engine? or cause excessive wear. Now I admit we haven't tried to define "excessive", I for one won't touch that, I think there are as many definitions for that as their are "pretty". The question wasn't I believe will it blow it up. Most people seem to believe that adding power, by what ever means, not just Edge, will increase wear on the engine and driveline. Probably a direct relationship to how much and for how long the power is applied. Personally I believe that if I overmaintain my truck the reduction in life will be offset somewhat, enough so that it will not be a problem. I have never worn out an engine though. I've put up to 385,000 miles on them and by then the vehicle is worn to the point to where I want a new one, even if the engine still dosen't use oil. Now that's just my OPINION, but I believe that's what he was after.

But not 385k miles on a boosted engine. I usually get 200K plus out of
my vehicals and with original engines and trannies as well because
although I use them and abuse them a bit at times but I basically do
not exceed the stock power ratings. I recently retired for restoration
a 79 J20 Jeep that pushed snow very hard for many years and except for
a new timing chain in engine the complete drive train is still stock
and still runs well (though body needs help) and its THM400 work like
day one still (it has had a aux tranny cooler since it was new)
The moral here is you plan to keep it a long time, keep it "stock".

Edited by: snoman

So you want to keep your truck for 5 year? 5 years non stop towing across the country putting a crapload of miles or just picking up the kids and putting 12k a year on it? Yes more power will decrease life. How much who knows. But it only drcreases life when its used. JMO but a 90hp juice or program like it when used with a level head.....the rest of the truck will be gone before the milage difference hits ya.

It is not just the engine at stake here but also a 2500 to 3500 dollar
tranny overhaul too as the Ally is young does not have a great track
record yet with stock engines let alone with a boosted ones. It took a long time
for the Hydromatics to get where thay are today and the Ally is not
there yet by any means.

Edited by: snoman

JMO but a 90hp juice or program like it when used with a level head.....the rest of the truck will be gone before the milage difference hits ya.


That's what I'm betting on. Only time will tell.