I am new here a did a fair amount of searching and reading on the subject of DFA and Emulsification Vs De". The question I have is if Deemulisification allows the water to set at the bottom of the tank, filters etc and rust Then in the Emulsification aren't you sending water molicules through your injecters and water blasting them at ove 20,000 psi ??? Getting balder by the minute on this one.

A non-experts opinion:


By dropping the water in your tank and filter, it will still get picked up and moved through the system just by the vibrations and road bumps. Long term it may have more of an effect.


By emusifying, you are bonding the water to the fuel. So it does not send a blob of water through. This happens on a very small scale. In my opinion, it is such a small scale your injectors would not see any effects from this. And again, emusifiers will not pick up tons of water. You get a bad tank and it will not bond it all to the fuel.... Try it in a glass, put mostly fuel.. some additive.... then add water, mix it up...... see how much water it will take.... Make sure to do it drops at a time... cause it wont bond much..... add more additive... see what happens....


Getting it out is much better in my opinion than leaving it there....

ISurvivedNMU, your "non-expert opinion" was superbly written and the information shared totally correct.
George Morrison

George, Firstly I want to say thanx for the rapid delivery of my Delvac 1 last week http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Its always nice to deal with some one whose buisiness is fast and friendly. I sure wish you could elaborate on this issue a bit more though. I assume that their is more water in Diesel fuel than most of us realize. Does Primrose Chemically encapsulate the water molicules as they pass through the injectors ? My concern is always getting that one bad tank of fuel and of course condensation and other crud that gets in the fuel tank.

The use of Primrose 405 or other emulsifying diesel fuel additive provides continuous protection from free water fallout, system corrosion from free water and bacteria colony prevention as bacteria cannot grow without a free water/diesel boundary. However, emulsifying diesel additives provide protection only for normal entrained water levels. All diesel fuel contains some level of entrained water, varing from as low as 20 ppm up to through 100 ppm.
If a person purchases diesel fuel with an extreme amount of water (above 200 ppm), emulsifier capability is exceeded and water protection/separation is now left to the OEM water separator.
George Morrison

I don't have Primrose available in my area, so I've been using FPPF. I've heard (they claim) that it can emulsify it's volume in water. Is this a true statement?


cadman_ks

In my mind, emulsifying its volume, would be hard to prove. Since diesel has water in it already, you would have to figure out how much, and then add the difference of that amount and the amount of additive... That would be fun to work on in a lab.. My opinion is it sounds like a lot of water to emulsify.


GC, does any of this stuff have the good alcohols in it? Not Absolute, or Jack.... Ya know, the ones that are Ok to clean up an emergency water problem in a tank of diesel? Or am out in left field on thishttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

This what I dont understand. Do theese types simply suspend the water or encapsulate the water molecules to prevent a water jet effect on the injectors ? With the stanadyne type are you guys saying that it seperates out ALL water includeing the stuff in the fuel or just excess like condensation ? Also I am wondering George if you reccomend an occasional dose of something extra to get out any possible excess water from poor fuel ? My very uneducated observations are wondering how a product such as Primrose that is so concentratred can match the abilitys of another like FPPF. I am not trying to put ant products down just trying to gather enough info to make a more informed descion.

Regardless of additive type.. emul or demul, they can only handle minute amounts of water.

You still need to trap the visible size amounts.

... My very uneducated observations are wondering how a product such as Primrose that is so concentratred can match the abilitys of another like FPPF. ....


FPPF is very concentrated as well. I'm using the Fuel Power, and you only use 1oz per 25gal.


cadman_ks


PS: Using FPPF HAS increased my fuel economy. I too do not totally understand how it works, but don't really care if it captures water AND increases my fuel economy...

Yes I understand both are highly concentrated, but looking at them both the Primrose treats 87 gallons more per bottle. It seems that you are adding less volume of additive with the primrose. So the question I guess I am getting at is HOW do you get the rest of the water out in other than normal doses ? Just by draining the water seperator ? Do You guys do this in between fuel filter canges or is the dummy light in the dash all everyone is relying on. I am wondering if others do some periodic heavy doseing to get that out. In short the debate seems centered on weather or not its better to run finer amounts of water through the injectors over a period of time Vs the calculated risk of getting a dose of raw water through with the De emulsifyer. But then if their is excess water you run that risk either way ?

I like the conversation, but I think I watched a comercial on laundry soap that fits in. Their theme is dont look at the sticker price look at gallons treated, then divided that by sticker price to get the price per gallon treated. Im sure it would be huge for a company to sell less concentrated additive and make the customer think they are getting more bank for the buck. I use Power Service and I think its somewhere around 2.5 oz per 25 gals.


Better yet we could compare this way... if you were to get the best buzz from a beverage.... Would you choose a half glass of vodka or a half glass of beer?

I have a r60 primary with a water separator, and I have drained it looking for water, and NEVER found any. My filters are clean from rust... Life seems to be good...


Don't take this too far.... First, do you have proof that the fuel quality in your area is bad? I read more about stations putting gas in the diesel than water being in a tank. I know it happens but you have systems set up to find it and take care of it.


I think- Any additive is better than no additive.... Plus there are so many opinions... Take one that makes sense to you and run with it...

I see your point on the detergent but I was not referring to the cost factor but if 1 0z of 1 treats 8 gallons and 1 0z of the other treats 12+ gallons I am wondering just how effecaceous the second example can be at suspending water. I have run Power service in my tractor a good long time but I have no clue what type of additive it is or even if it has alcahol in it. So after I run out my stock on that I wont buy it again. The long and the short of it is I decided to go with the FPPF and Cetane boost. As far as getting water at the pump, it is this rare occurance in my view that could instantly cause more damage than a lot of treated fuel from either side of the fence. Now if I knew what station and where this was going to happen it would of course not be a concern. One of things I am going to do is get an auxillary tank so I can have a more reliable fuel source ( hopefully). This of course all relates to how much you drive OTR or if always the same places and how many miles per year. After reading the "How many miles on your Max" post I am blown away that so many who drive so little Pony up for a Diesel. Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

Back to the soap.. How well will the more concentrated soap clean your clothes... What do trust more to clean your clothes... Tide or Wisk....


George will knowhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Just curious if thats the case why do you wash with brand X ? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

The Primrose 405 and 409 (winter treatment) are indeed "industrial strength" fuel additives intended primarily for commercial use. Many of the consumer diesel fuel additives sitting on truck stop shelves are a mixture/dilution of 10% fuel additive with 90% diesel fuel..
George

Georege, Once again many thanx for your concise anawsers. Some of this stuff is difficult at best to understand. I like to know the ins and outs of what I am useing. I placed another order from you today for more MOBIL 1 Goodies but I did decide to give the FPPF and cetane boost a try from Eric. Any one who has not yet ordered from one of theese guys is chaeting them selves out of first class products and service. After My first order from George I got a emial from his office thanking me for my buisiness. I almost fell off my chair. Its been a LONG time since I have done buisiness with people as good as those on this forum. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

I really think thats what it comes down to. Use what your comfortable with... You seem to be and emulsifier if i can stereotype youhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif..... I think its about marketing from there on... one is more concentrated, the other has more filler.....


Personally, I have chose Power Service cause they are easy for me to get.... Ok in the price.... and it seems to work well with my filter inspections....

I am not a big fan of BS. I dont know exactly what you are getting at with the stereo type stuff. I have used Power Service a long time. I just get lost on the point of useing a product that is completely unkown as to whether or not it is a emulisifier or a De emulsifier or even if it contains Alcahol and apparently has the most filler of all. After reading the Power Service spin off non answer it pretty told me everything I needed to know about it. Both FPPF and Primrose are non alcahol based so theres where my choices lied Vs. Stanadyne. I chosen to listen and act upon the advice of the experts. Many thanx for their assistance. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

I was Just Kidding about that....WOW........ If you need to know more about this you can call Brian Willson at Power service and he can answer your technical questions...... But it sounds like you have counted them out.....


George knows his stuff also!!!!!





Brian would just be anouther opinion....


Just tryin to help.... and have funEdited by: ISurvivedNMU

I am all for fun and screwin around. But when I am after some info and I get analagys of laundry soap, beer and geek emoticons I just dont have a clue what you are trying to say. I did not rule out Power Service untill they Refused to answer weather or not their product contained Alcahol. I do not like BS and that includes companys that do the spin cycle answers. Now on the other hand if we build a nice big fire and break out the cold drinks I like to BS around all day. Just a different place and time. Power service has worked well for me in the past But the experts I chose to listen to were George, Kennedy and Eric. They support this and other forums and offer a LOT of knowledge. I in turn show my support by patronizeing their establishments. Like you said, personal choice. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

ISurvivedNMU





Did you read the reply from PS?? There is NO emulsifier or demusifier in the bottle. "There is no room" after they fit in all the other wonderful stuff they put in there. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

nope no room after the kerosine and # 2 diesel goes in the bottle http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Now I know its good to be prepared. There have been a few reports of rust and corrosion in the dmax fuel system, but i wonder how serious of an issue water in the fuel is. I've driven my big truck 230,000 miles at 5-7 miles per gallon and never had a water problem. Granted my truck has much lower pressures, but it doesn't have a water removing filter and i rarely use additives in it. Diesel fuel must already have some type of water control in it already. I'm assuming its an emulsifier as diesel cantaminated with water is hazardous waste that no store wants to deal with. Most of the time its enough, but there's always that rare chance its not. In that rare chance, would an emulsifier be enough? maybe maybe not. Just something to think about.

GMCDURAMAX


Those are some big assumptions on your part. Read some of the posts from George and you will start to doubt your thinking about fuel.


In your rare case you might be right but in the mean time I'm will to follow George's advice and emulsify the fuel and my thinking of additional filtering.

Yes there are some big assumptions there and i know you cant compare a dmax to a big truck( I am still looking for a good emulsifying additive for both), but thats just what I've observed in the +-3800 gallons i've bought. i'm just saying that it sounds like even additives can only deal with a very small amount of water. Its a small insurance policy at best.


What does everone think of Howes. It says it eliminates water.

Oops missed an 0 +- 38000 gallons

But thats through a low pressure system. The 30,000 +PSI of the Duramax is the issue at hand which magnifies impurities to a extreme. As far as good choices I was pretty pleased to have to force a descion between FPPF and Primrose. Just because I didn't feel like I could make a bad choice either way. In the smaller truck the cetane increase is just as if not more important to me than the water issue. I see filteration as the primary issue there and additives as insurance.

ISurvivedNMU





Did you read the reply from PS?? There is NO emulsifier or demusifier in the bottle. "There is no room" after they fit in all the other wonderful stuff they put in there. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif





NO, I missed it... Just looked for it and could not find it.... What thread is it in? When i was going through the sam thing as bluemaxxx I called around and got in touch with a few companies. Power service spent a long time on the phone with me... His name was brian wilson, and assured me the the antigel and diesel kleen was an emusifier. I will be calling back there this afternoon... But i would love to read the post about no emuls of demuls.... Thats crazy... If its true, looks like in lookin for new additive also..... dam

Yeah, I was very dissapointed with that post from Power Service. Their stuff is easy to get any place in Michigan. I had used it a long time before. I didn't mean to be short yesterday but man it rubs me the wrong way when you ask theese companys a straight question and you get non answers. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif I dont even see that they claim their product is not alcahol based just that its a proprietary secret. I usually figure that means yes. lol. Its a real pisser some times tryin to sort through this kind of stuff and make decisions on products you are dumping into a 40k + investment. If I could have gotton straight answers from them like you did they certainly would have been on my short list. My emails to them were no different from that posted on this forum though. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gifEdited by: BlueMaxxxx

What does everone think of Howes. It says it eliminates water.





George recomeends the Primrose and JK recomeends the Total Power, either is good enough for me then. Real life product testers. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

NO, I missed it... Just looked for it and could not find it.... What thread is it in? When i was going through the sam thing as bluemaxxx I called around and got in touch with a few companies. Power service spent a long time on the phone with me... His name was brian wilson, and assured me the the antigel and diesel kleen was an emusifier. I will be calling back there this afternoon... But i would love to read the post about no emuls of demuls.... Thats crazy... If its true, looks like in lookin for new additive also..... dam





Here it is right from my SECOND email to him. The first one was just full of marketing BS avoiding my question.





Mr. Alster,

It is neither. There is not enough room in the container to put an effective
water dispersant. If you have a water or water related problem you should
use the Diesel 911 to get the water under control and then continue to use
the Diesel Kleen.

Emulsifiers are not recommended and demulsifers will not work in a general
use additive. To solubilize water you have to use a large amount of an
additive to effectively take care of the water problem. Multi purpose
additives cannot contain a strong lubricity, detergent, cetane boost,
corrosion and stability package and sill have room to carry the necessary
chemical to control water.

I gave all the details so that you and other consumers will realize that
there are a lot of additives making strong claims about how their additive
does everything and take care of water too. Once you have the details, you
can make a better choice, get more for your money and not be mislead by
inflated claims.

Sincerely,

Brian Wilson
Technical Support
Power Service Products, Inc.
Edited by: FirstDiesel

I have the Total power and cetane boost ordered From Eric. I am useing products from George as well so I certainly expect that I will give the Primrose a shot in the future.

Thats such crap. Im on the look also... I hate this crap... Erics only two hours away... I will just have to hang out til after bird and deer hunting of over......


Thank you for sharing that!

This is the arguement FOR emulsifiying.

"Many fuel additives contain chemicals that disperse moisture in the fuel. If the moisture is dispersed, it cannot concentrate in one area and cause a restriction in fuel delivery if it freezes. In addition, being dispersed in the fuel allows the moisture to be carried to the water separator where it can be removed from the fuel."
From (http://www.intellidog.com/dieselmann/b_smoke12.htm)

The idea is to NOT seperate the water. Emulsifiers will still allow the filter to remove water.
Everything I have ever read about de-emulsifiers says they are useless in the quantities available in a small bottle of additive.

Maybe we should also be looking closer at corrosion inhibitors.



And in case youall haven't figured me out... I do not trust GM's advice on additive. I don't see anything in recent GM history that qualifies them to make those kinds of judgements.Edited by: hoot

Hoot,

That's an interesting article, especially the author's recommendations - quoted as follows:

"My recommendations
For system maintenance:
Stanadyne Performance Formula Junior, Stanadyne Lubricity Formula, Ford Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additive Amsoil Diesel Fuel Modifier or Diesel Fuel Additive Concentrate.

For performance:
Stanadyne Performance Formula, Amsoil Cetane Boost Diesel Fuel Additive (in conjunction with their Modifier or Concentrate).

For storage:
Stanadyne Diesel Fuel Stabilizer, Racor Biocide.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Hoot,

That's an interesting article, especially the author's recommendations - quoted as follows:

"My recommendations
For system maintenance:
Stanadyne Performance Formula Junior, Stanadyne Lubricity Formula, Ford Diesel Fuel Lubricity Additive Amsoil Diesel Fuel Modifier or Diesel Fuel Additive Concentrate.

For performance:
Stanadyne Performance Formula, Amsoil Cetane Boost Diesel Fuel Additive (in conjunction with their Modifier or Concentrate).

For storage:
Stanadyne Diesel Fuel Stabilizer, Racor Biocide.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


Well, that clears things up doesn't it ?!? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif

Does Primrose 405 contain alcohol?


Rick

Does Primrose 405 contain alcohol?


Rick





No. Does NOT contain alcohol.

Does anyone know what Bosch recommends, they make the injectors. The injectors seem to be more trouble than the pump.

It's crazy...

Diesel Progress... latest issue has an article that reads almost exactly as George Morrison speaks.

Written by a fellow named Jim Windsor. Maybe George knows him.

There is one statement that seems to qualify the emulsifying philosophy...

"Some during freezing temperatures use an old New England fleet manager's trick: add 1 pint isophropyl alcohol (common drug store rubbing alchohol) to every tank monthly. Alchohol absorbs water and is cheap!"

Edited by: hoot

Dont Bosch and GM totally reccommend staying away from anything with alcahol in it ? In my minds eye that one of the great benefits of both FPPF and Primrose. No alcahol.

It depends on the type of alchohol. iso is okEdited by: hoot