Well, I've become quiet interested here in a lot of reading about SVO/WVO alternatives. (Straight Vegetable Oil/Waste Vegetable Oil).


Using this as an alternative fuel to the skyrocketing cost of diesel, looks very nice at the moment. I do a lot of resturant work doing refrigeration, 90% of which seems to be Chinese resturants (which is the oil of choice)


Here's my concerns before embarking on this journey:


1. Difference in the viscocity of SVO/WVO is way thicker (unheated) than that of #2 Diesel. So, with the precision that these pumps are to operate at, then how does the pump compensate for the difference in the thicker fuel? Or does it not matter, it just pumps it anyway? There were claims of the use of SVO/WVO extended the use of worn pumps, because of the thicker viscocity.


2. With the viscocity change in mind, if you heat the fuel, what does that do to the pump? I had read a post somewhere a few months ago, attributing a whole fleet of GM-Diesels, and no pump jobs because of full fuel tanks every night. (Thereby lowering the fuel temperatures. A full fuel tank will take longer and more heat before the tank/fuel temperatures elevate too far) Follow what I mean? Does fuel temperature reduce the pump life, or is the lubricity the major contributor to pump failure?


3. Color of fuel affecting optical sensor? I've heard about the owner's manual talking about not using fuel oil (stove oil to some). I was wondering if that was just for road tax legality reasoning, or if there was optical sensor problems that they stuck that in there? (Non-tax fuel being dyed red.)


All of these sites seem to be very informative, and no problems reported with the use of SVO/WVO. I'm just trying to explore all avenues before investing time and money into this little idea.Edited by: knkreb

1. I don't know exactly what the difference in viscosity is of heated SVO vs diesel, but it would have to be considerably more viscous to be dangerous to the IP. The biggest difference is that a higher viscosity means less leakage, less leakage means greater efficiency, and greater efficiency means better performance. This is how SVO extends life of worn pumps, critical areas like the hydraulic distributor head where leakage causes the dreaded hard start hot condition, can be solved with a higher viscosity fluid, which is why the pumps don't give a problem when the fuel is cool.


2. Lubricity is by far the bigger threat, poor lubrication means wear. Temperature is not really a problem, unless they rise so high that the viscosity of the fuel drops enough to effect pump efficiency. The highest fuel temps the pump will ever see is after a hot soak, as soon as the engine is started, the cooler fuel flows in and hotter fuel flows back to the tank and the pump cools down. I assume you will be running some sort of SVO heater circuit, my advice is regulate those temps around 130-140F, any higher is simply unnecessary.


3. Fuel has to be pretty dark to cause optic problems, normally color is not the problem but rather elements in the fuel that leave stains on the optic lenses. Kerosene is not a very good replacement for diesel, it contains no aromatics or parrafins which makes its combustion performance lower than diesel, but it won't hurt anything but performance and mileage.

One of the things I've read detrimental is seal compatability, Nepopreme rubber & O rings can fail sooner with non Diesel fuels, replace with Viton, have also seen comments of optic sensor inability to "see" through some blends. I think the Greasel kit incorporate a heater to thin out the heavier fuel, this would be especially necessary in cold climate as the problem is not so much viscosity, but lowered pour point/waxing. Edited by: Turbine Doc

The seals, well, where are these seals at? Never took chemistry class, so I never had the chance to sleep through that, or forget any of it.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif We use Viton seals (used on valves) in Discus (r) compressors in the refrigeration industry. Tough stuff. I don't know if vegetable oil would have the properties that would eat up the regular seals or not. I've heard that the bio-diesel may give you fits, but haven't seen/read any hard evidence yet. I *believe* that the SVO is tame enough not to require any replacment of seals. From the testomonials I've read, people have done up to 60,000 miles without problem.


I just want to do this right if I'm going to do it.

SVO has a free fatty acid content of ~5-7%.


This is part of the reason you start up on diesel and shut down on it. That FFA content won't matter in a working pump as much as sitting in one.

Okay, I'm ready for class. . . only took me 11 years past graduation to want to start to learn something. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif Fatty acids. Well, does that mean the acids will be attacking the guts of the pump, and seals too? Free fatty acids only in SVO, in WVO, or both? If this is a problem, then what are the possiblities? Is there a way to reduce the fatty acid content, or is it going to be a fixture in the mixture. Hey, not bad a rhyme. (sorry, it's late)'


So if I understand right, basting in fatty acids, not good? But taking a nice snooze in diesel, makes for a happy pump? I thought it was because the SVO/WVO is too thick to pump and work properly in the fuel injection system.

KNKREB,


I could be wrong but I think petrol diesel is mildly acidic too.


FFA level in WVO raise with high fat foods being cooked.


If your frying pork skins in peanut oil, the FFA level could be ~12% after a couple days at 250*F. The FFA from animal sources is generally higher. I've nutralized it for ethyl estrification but not for SVO.

I've nutralized it for ethyl estrification but not for SVO.





Can you expound? You've neutralized the FFA acids, or something else?

Imagine an eletric motor stirring Ethoxide(caustic alocohol) w/ 1% THF into 45 gal of heated WVO. Then when the reactions(1 hr with THF catalyst) completed, stirring in HCL untill it's nuetralized. The Tryglicerides should split into mono and di-ethides and you have 10 gallons of glycerol to remove, yuck!


gylcerol burns at 1500*F and is a clean fuel. it's gelly alchohlEdited by: quantum mechanic

So, everything that I've read so far about Diesels, is that alcohols are a no-no. Yet, when reading about all these Bio-Diesel home brews, they are adding in alcohols. Now, does the alcohol somehow "disappear" or form some other compound that will not harm the diesel engine? I see all these different brews for bio-diesel, and wonder what's okay, the best, and what to stay away from. Thanks QM for your insight on this! I used the keyword esterification on a search last night, and my head is still spinning, but found lots of great stuff.

I've added ethanol to my diesel/biodiesel blends. up to 7.7% with 1.1% thf for solvent and biodiesel does form a new molecule, that's why the glycerine is precipated. a big heavy long molecule is broken into two or three shorter ones. Ethyl or methyl fuel oil, depending on meOH or etOH. With svo you're burning TRI-glycerol fuel oil. a much heavier denser fuel oil.


I just had the idea that you could mix 7.7 % etOH and 1.1% THF to 91% SVO and it would lighten the viscosity. You wouldn't have to heat it as much. It would be a denser fuel oil than bio diesel without the processing time. You would burn the glycerol bio diesel processing would remove.Edited by: quantum mechanic

Hey TDG: back to the question of the seals. . . where are these seals? Are they internal to the pump, or are they external, and changeable? My pump is the 5521 vintage. Will it be able to handle some of the stuff that comes along with either bio-diesel, SVO, or WVO? Wondering about biodiesels methanol, ethanol alcohols.