Well, now that fuel prices are spiking so high, I'm entertaining the thoughts of alternative fuels. I've just started reading about SVO, (Straight Vegitable Oil) WVO (Waste Vegitable oil) and heard about Bio-Diesel.


So does anyone have any experiences with any of this stuff? Good, bad, otherwise? I'm just looking for real research here, not folklore.

Nobody has done anything, or heard anything about this stuff? or just too scared to try?

I guess I'm the guy.


I have a little yellow grease gathering, processing and usage experience.


My father's new company is all about green fuels and I've researched a few.


I'm most impressed with first SVO. It's simple and there for the burning. For example, Houston, Tx generates 20 millon gallons of WVO a month. The only caveat there is the grease guys that are out there opperate like the mafia. careful.


Second is agtane, FT-diesel and the like. Requires infastructure for processing, refining and the associated costs. These fuels are catalyst reformed and sulpher free.


last is biodiesel. The ethyl and methyl esters are great at liquifying petroleum and anything made from petroleum. I think it's a great additive for sulpher free diesel. Infrastructre for storage, processing and refinement necessary.

I've been running WVO in my 88 6.2 for the last 3000+ miles with no problems. Same power Same mileage. I will start the conversion of my 95 6.5 TD tomorrow and expect the same results.

Any issues to be concerned with the optical sensor in the pump? The 88 is great, 'cause it's mechanical . . . but with the electronics and extra stuff on the newer engines, I'm wondering. . .


What does WVO look like anyway? Is it clear, brownish, or what? I've been doing some reading online, and wondering about all the in's and out's. I toyed with Wesson oil in my boiler last night, and learned a few things. Thinking about how to convert it over to WVO for free heat this winter.

WVO is different depending on the source. Fryer grease is a light golden color when filtered to 10 microns. Edited by: quantum mechanic

How hard is it to actually get the WVO and properly filter it? Are
restaurants really open to giving it away or do they balk at the added
problem of you coming to gather from them, and do they have it in small
quanti**** or large? What do they store it in? 55 gal drums or what?
Also is it a problem to find while you are traveling, and properly
filter?



I was looking at the Greasel site and was considering installing the
long thin 36 gal tank kit on my suburban if it will fit by the frame
rails. Even at $600 it will have paid for itself in only 4 months since
I spend about $120 month in diesel. Plus I like the thought of better
lubrication properties on the IP. Does anyone have this installed in a
6.5?

Most restaurants are required by either city or county health deptment, depending on location, to have their grease dumped into a trap. Generally these traps are owned by the company that picks up the grease and they get paid every time they pump it out and the grease is the bonus. Some people have been arrested stealing grease. The best way to get it is to offer to put a trap on a resutrants lot or find one that's part of the building and offer to pump it out for free.


I have a 5.5 hp ohv 3"pump for this. I've filled a few plastic 55 gal drums I found and utilized for storage as well. I'm working on a 500 gallon tank trailer with the pump mounted.





I'm going to add a little ford radiator to my coolant flow from a torus and heat my oil in the tranny cooler core.Edited by: quantum mechanic

QM, I am using the Frantz oil cleaner, to filter the grease. The only problem I am having is the toliet paper from Frantz is $ 2.00 a roll. It fits in the filter perfectly, whereas toliet paper at the store is not consistent in size and it's not as good a filter. How do you filter the grease?

Umm...


` I let it sit for a year and it was settled enough for my purposes so far. In the future I'd like something that pumped and filtered it without much input from me. A gravity filter for instance.

I heard that biodiesel can reak havoc on diesel engines 92 an dolder, I have the new LLY engine. Does anyone know about warranty issues such as VIOD?


QM do you brew yours at home, if so do you have any recipes?

There are a few different recipes on the net out there for it. It requires most often methanol. You can use ethanol, but much tricky-er. It takes a few steps and a little bit of time. It's not a mix in a packet of powder, and BAM bio-diesel. Do a search on bio-diesel, and you will see some of the best sites pop up on top. It will be a few hours of reading and trying to remember all that chemistry stuff, and understanding transesterification. In the long run, just follow the recipe, and it should turn out.

I got my instructions from the internet and combined some methods. I use 1%THF because it solvates the oil and alcohol allowing acid or base catalysed reaction to reach equilibrium in 1 hr instead of 8. It's a freaking mess to deal with and anything you use as equipment is ruined. I don't believe the hype about biodiesel. It's a petroleum solvent for sure but it won't eat your seals in 2% blends. B100 would have a greater tendency to do so.

Am I understanding this right...you can take SVO and dump it into a diesel engine, and go?? This sounds too easy. Where's the catch??

The catch is svo has a higher viscosity and it's best to shut down the engine on diesel fuel for start-up reasons. So you wind up with two fuel systems going to one IP and a way to switch bach and forth.

So I can get away with putting a tank in the bed with an extra lift pump/check valve, splice it into the fuel line (past the OE lift pump,) put a shut off solenoid in the diesel line, and switch wile pulling into the driveway...so what's a gallon of vegetable oil worth these days...i'm sure less than 2.05 for diesel fuel.


Something else...how about a 50/50 mix in the tank...feasable or not??

2.05...hahaha....try 2.20!!!!

WVO sells for a dollar a pound or so. SVO is more expensive unless you're the source.


It seems like you should have the liftpumps rigged to come on with the fuel transfer solenoids.

QM, don't you mean $1.00 per gallon. At $1.00 per pound, it would cost between $4.00 and $7.00 per gallon.

'Cuse me, a dollar a gallon to buy it. It's a cleaner burning fuel, You cold put it in a oil burning heater and the fumes won't kill you.

Yea, just tried that with my boiler with Wesson out of the bottle. It works, just not well. To thick for the nozzle. I think it needs to thin out to get it to work right. It wouldn't ignite, had to start it with #2 first, then it would burn if the flame was going.

Well, I added about a 1:6 ratio of veggie oil to my tank. Just to see if all the talk was true. It had to have some merit. Anyway, it was clean oil out of the bottle. My truck ran the same, one thing I did notice was it ran a little more quiet. I have since added more fuel (diesel only) and the truck is more loud than the previous fuel.

When this thread started I hadn't converted my 95 yet. Its done now, and I have approx 800 miles on WVO in the last 2 weeks. On my first 35 gallons (in the stock 40 gallon tank) I went 670 miles which works out to 19.4 MPG!!! I think I spent about $8 on diesel for my starts/stops (which is in a 3 gallon boat tank strapped down in back for the time being). I have about $400 in parts for the conversion, a weekends worth of time, and another $200 in pumps/drums/filters for my gathering and filtering. The filter I am using will process about 100 gallons and costs $4.78 + shipping. I'm not trying to brag, just inform. I can post schematics and p/n's if anyone is interested.

Did you build it yourself from the ground up? I was wondering about your source for parts, if they are just stock auto parts, or some speciality stuff of some sort. I've got a van, and I am wondering about where to put everything at. (since I have no bed/trunk, or spare tire room)


I'd like to check out your set up.Edited by: knkreb

Please do post your parts list, shematics and any pics you have of the setup. Where do you get the WVO?

I'm fixin to start buying mine from a place that recylces cooking oil
for cattle feed at .15 per pound. Works out to a little more than
a 1.00 per gallon which is half of what diesel is now in DFW.
2.209/gal

I have been kicking this idea around since before I bought my truck. The major concern for those of us here in the northern part of the country is that temps are below 50*F for a good part of the year. What I have been considering is putting coiled copper tubing in the bottom of my fuel tank. I could then plumb coolant through it and let convection work to evenly distribute the heat through the tank. When thinking about this however, I remebered some problems my buddy had last winter. The temp was around -20*F, and his diesel fuel had gelled. This was the supposed "winter blend". Also, once the truck was running the coolant wouldn't get warm without a heavy load. I guess I am just rambling at this point, but I would like to know if anyone has any experience with WVO in northern climates. What precautions do you have to take?Edited by: tahoe2dr

SVO clouds at 40*F. I would heat the tank and heat the fuel with a heat exchanger before the IP. Perhaps fuel tempature sensors are required to know when to switch to SVO.

Here I am waiting for my new PMD, and watching fuel prices skyrocket. It is $2.299 per gallon now. In light of these depressing anomalies I have decided to give some serious thought to the grease conversion. I am a decent fabricator, although I really have nothing impressive to show for it. So, here is what I am thinking...

1) A fabricated aluminum or steel fuel cell for the WVO
2) A copper tubing/coolant "heater" for the tank
3) A single pass type heat exchanger for the fuel supply line
-Tending toward copper tubing... looking for polymer
4) A 12 volt solenoid to port the coolant to the fuel cell
-Can later be hooked up to a thermostat for summer usage
5) A six port solenoid for the supply and return diesel and WVO lines
6) A ton of foam insulation material for the tank and lines
7) An additional fuel pump for the WVO
8) An additional filter for the WVO
9) A long weekend...

Can anyone running WVO, or knowledgable about it, tell me if I am missing anything? Screw $2.30 a gallon... I'll run whatever I can find that is cheaper. Boy am I ever glad we as americans set out on this quest to rid the world of terrorism and ensure uncertain "oil futures" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif... Is there anyone in the Wisconsin/Minnesota area that can shed some light on the WVO conversion/installation process?

Here is a copy of the schematic that I used and part numbers of the key parts. knkreb, I converted the stock fuel tank to hold the WVO, and am using a boat fuel tank (3 gallons) for the diesel. I'm using an ATF cooler as my heat exchanger in the tank, and bundled my fuel line with the heater hoses to heat the fuel on the way up (18 feet or so in the bundle). We've gotten a couple of times into the upper 30's in the night, so I plug in the block heater and am able to switch over after 5 minutes or so. Most of the WVO I am using is from Chinese restaurants in town, I pump from their dumpters. A couple of places give me the oil in the 5 gallon 'cubies' that the new oil comes in. The purpose of the 3 port valve on the return line is to allow a 'purge' for cold weather. When I switch back to diesel, using the purge valve I can send the return diesel torward the veggie tank pushing all the oil back into the tank so when I shut down the only veggie oil is in the tank. The purge takes approx 45 sec. Please note the Item 6 is a 6 port valve, I drew it as two separate valves for clarity, but it is really 1 unit.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/veggiesuburban/2004-10-19_135416_Diagram2.jpgEdited by: veggiesuburban

Veggie,
What is the rating or size of your ATF (Transmission?) cooler? Do you see a lot of junk in your Racor filter? Is the Racor absolutely necessary? I am a little discouraged by the $240 price tag on it. I am laying out templates for a two compartment tank. One side, the WVO, should hold about 45 gallons, the other, DFO, should hold 5 or so. My plan is to insulate both the tank and fuel lines with foam rubber. I really want this to work here in Wisconsin. Also do you have anything to indicate the fuel temp in the tank? Thanks once more.

I'm thinking about adapting a water heater to be the fuel tank. It provides the insulation, and heating element already. Just figuring out just how to do it and where to put it in a van.

Do they make 12 volt water heaters for rv's? I was just wondering about that. Seems like a lot of technology metriculates down to 4x4's from rv's anyway. I was thinking about using a stock tank heater for those really cold nights... but just having an insulated tank with 30-45 gallons of warm oil should stay that way over night... i think. If anyone has pictures of their conversion or ideas please post them. Thanks

I bought the Racor from my local diesel shop for approx $90, I do find stuff in it, althought I question how it gets there since I filter to min 5 micron. The greasel guys recommend not running without so I don't, I figure that diesel is filtered too and look at all the junk that the truck filters still catch. I don't monitor temps on the fly, I have an infarred gun that I checked with during my initial runs, as it gets colder I will continue to check and see how things go. I'm not sure of the rating of the ATF cooler, but its a Hayden 1402 for whatever that's worth (it's the size greasel recomended for my size tank.)


When I dropped my tank for the instal, the bottom half was covered with a plastic protective cover that left about a 1/2 gap. I was thinking about removing the plastic cover, applying a self stick 120V pad heater to the tank, covering it with 1/2 closed cell poly pack foam and re-installing the plastic shell. I have almost 1.5 inches on top and top half of the sides that I could insulate as well. That would allow me to preheat my oil overnight while my block heater is going. I know that in 'outdoors' circles the phrase "cotton kills" is often said due to the tendancy of wet clothing to wick away body heat. I didn't know if wet insulation would similarly wick away tank heat. Closed cell foam won't absorb water itself, but will trap it against the tank and I am unsure if it will do more harm than good, does anyone have any thoughts on this?

If you were to "lag" the tank as we did in the canoe club (Navy for those not familiar) and sealed the insulation properly I wouldn't see it being a major problem. What I am considering is using a type of contact cement, lagger's glue, to attach the foam to the tank. I would then cover the tank with fiberglass cloth and epoxy resin. This "should" seal out all the water. As one final kicker I would load up my spray gun with underbody coating and coat the whole assembly. Between the glue, fiberglass, and undercoat, I don't think water will be a huge concern. I like the idea of the 120v tank heater. My only problem with that is what do you do when you go to work and your truck sits for atleast 8 hours nowhere near an outlet? Correct me If I am wrong here, but if you were to put your WVO pickup directly below your ATF "heater" wouldn't that just about garauntee that you would get atleast warm fuel into the lines? With that concept in conjuction with a dual pass heat exchanger for fuel lines, your warmup time would be only as long as the engine coolant takes to heat. I will definitely do some experiments concerning this theory. I would also opt insulate the fuel lines to and from the engine compartment. I wish I lived where that was not a concern, but it gets damn cold here. Veggie, if you don't mind me asking, what did you spend on the entire conversion? Also, how did you go about appropriating your WVO? I guess, what was your sales pitch as to why they should let you have their oil? Thanks again

I am fortunate enough that my emplyment/lifestyle doesn't require me to run my monster 'Burban all the time. I use it when I need it, and believe me I LIKE driving it/hauling/trailering. With fuel prices so high and my take on the WVO conversion - PAIN IN the A*S - I look for alternate means of transportation. Again, I am fortunate that my job/life allows flexibility. That said (and I know you guy don't want to hear this), I use a beater $2k '87 VW Scirocco 16V in bad weather that gets 30/35 mpg and in good weather my '93 BMW K75 RT-P that gets 50/45 mpg. 45 when I beat the snot out of ithttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif. So, my method is to get decent average miles per gallon by alternating the machines. 'Nuff said, good luck with the conversions and tradeoffs guys. I mean that.

There's an estimated min. 2 billion gallons WVO collected a year in the USA.


I thought it was a great idea to collect it and use it as fuel before the current world uncertainty that has oil men in high cotton.

I know I like to take others' drawings and glorify them... Well, here is what I did with Veggies drawing...

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/tahoe2dr/2004-10-20_185143_WVO_SETUP.jpg

This is not accurate yet. I just wanted something to help me explain the system to my friend. He is the "proud" owner of the '97 PowerStroke. Even though he is a F*^# owner I think he will be great help on this project.

-In response to the "job/lifestyle permitting" comment... I wish more people saw things as you do. I cannot count the number of times I have been driving my '93 Honda Civic down the highway loaded to the gills with parts and tools... when I was passed by some "soccer mom" in a 9000lb SUV doing 80mph and getting 8 mpg. And to top it all off she was the only one in a vehicle designed to seat twenty-seven. If I can "haul" with my honda there is no reason to be using that much fuel to "commute". Obviously you can see my stance on this issue. On an equal and opposite note however, I enjoy the versatility of my Tahoe. I can really load that thing down with tools and parts (when it runs) and still have ample room. But there is a huge tradeoff for that luxury... about 8 cents per mile. Which in itself doesn't sound so bad... but drive 100 miles a day = $8.00 ... 500 a week $40.00 ... 50 weeks a year $2000.00... I too am hoping this works well. While I enjoy the relative comfort the Tahoe offers, I am not willing to "waste" $2000.00 worth of fuel in a year. If I said I was really concerned with the environment I would be lying. I am however, under the impression that something sensible is in a way contagious. That is to say, if it works for me and it seems sensible, others will take notice. And on that note... let's hope it does in fact work for me.

... Oh yeah, and by doing all of this I will show my support for our oil tycoon ... I mean president...

I gotta get movin' on this WVO thing here real quick. My alternate vehicle is full. My signature just changed last week from 3 kids in carseats to 4. My Camry is out of room, and we're movin into the bus full time here real soon. So, sorry Mr. Bob, got no "B-mers" in the driveway. If I did, I too may not be considering a cost saving option in fuel. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif I'll have to post a pic of this glorious family vehicle sometime.


(All meant in good fun)http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifEdited by: knkreb

Tahoe,


My pitch usually starts at the back door, I learned real quick the quickest way to turn someone off is ask them about their waste in front of customers. So I knock and ask whoever answers, I am not all that concerned about speaking with the manager. If it is a mexican place, the cook usually gives the okay, the chinese places usually go find someone who speaks english. Most of the time I have positive results. Before I ask I look in the dumpster, no sense wasting time if I don't want it anyways. I have $90 in the filter, $55 in the 6 port, 30 in the 3 port, $110 in the holley blue, and about 100 in fittings and tubing. I haven't found a permanent diesel tank yet, right now I am using a 3 gallon boat tank strapped down in the back.


Yes, plugging in is good only in the morning, but usually its warmer when I leave for home. I thought about using an inverter and a third battery (deep cycle) that I could charge at night to give me heat during the day.


I have found it better to have one vehicle (multipurupose) as a daily driver than multiple more purposeful vehicles. Maintenance and insurance can eat a 15-20 mpg savings in a hurry, besides my collecting/filtering routine is getting refined so it doesn't take but 1-2 hours a week and free is free and nothing beats that.

It's better than free. Every gallon of WVO you burn offsets a gallon of diesel at the pump. Every gallon of petrol diesel you don't buy lowers the demand for oil. If we (the reader's of this page) could all follow veggie suburban's example and offset our demand for pump diesel, the price of pump diesel won't be so bad once diesel is $3.00 a gal. or more. If everyone we know followed our example, how much domestic demand for foreign oil could we offset? It might be a little idealistic but this is security in an insecure world. Be your own source and supply your own demand. If you don't change your usage, You're leaving it up to someone else.Edited by: quantum mechanic

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif QM for president '04!!!
No, really that is exactly what I was getting at in a lengthy fashion. Well put. Now the problem is getting the plan into action. Kind of like the PMD cooler... QM yours is in the pattern stage... Huisman... yours too. Should be done in a few short weeks, maybe sooner. Anyways, I am starting my research this weekend. I suggest everyone else do the same. Perhaps we can pool our findings.

Sweet!


I'm gonna have to bow out of the veggie research for now. Too many irons in the fire at the moment, some regarding my truck but other things as well. Maybe by the time I'm ready to convert, you guys will have it all figured out. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gifEdited by: w_huisman

Hm, I wonder that nobody is concerned about problems with the IP that may suffer --- sooner or later --- from the higher viscosity of SVO/WVO. Has this somehow been solved, or has turned out that there´s nothing to worry about?


An IP failing due to SVO would eat up what I can save on fuel during a year, maybe even more, and having to replace the pump would leave me at least two weeks without a car.

That makes it very difficult to figure what I should do. I´d love to drive on SVO and could even do it legally, but from what I´ve been reading here, my impression is that those Stanadyne pumps are not as durable as I would expect from an IP. I don´t know if the pump or the injectors have been replaced at some time by previous owners, but I don´t think so. Considering the mileage, it may be just luck that they´re still fine. Running SVO through them, suddenly, can be a very bad idea.

What do you think?


Tahoe,

for heating the fuel tank, placing an ATF cooler seems a very good idea to me. Combine that with a plated heat exchanger that runs the oil at about 80C back into the tank through the return line, and you´ll be at maybe 65C after an hour of driving for the whole tank. It will take quite some time until the oil gets really cold.

To heat the oil quickly, use a setup like that:

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/0lee/2004-10-21_145042_tank.gif

The ATF cooler is placed into a box that is open at one or two sides. The box will keep a supply of heated oil around the heater; the hot oil coming from the return line contributes to that. The supply line takes the heated oil from the hot supply. Heat will slowly dissipate through the box and its openings to farther regions of the tank to warm up further oil --- no need to heat all the oil at once.

Place the box in the middle of the tank on the bottom. When the tank is getting cold, all the oil around the box will isolate the hot-box, and you can even isolate the small part of the tank just under the box --- or set the heater and the fuel rails an inch or so above the bottom of the tank to use the oil below as an isolation.
Edited by: 0lee

cool... I like the idea of the box. I was wondering how to pull the warmest oil from the tank. As far as the higher viscosity... I don't really think that is as big a factor as it would seem. Liquids don't compress, oil lubricates, hot oil is less viscous... I "believe" as long the oil is under atleast 10 puond os pressure on the supply side the pump shouldn't "feel" much of a difference. Maybe I am wrong. Are there any IP gurus out there who wish to comment? I would love to hear your expert opinion on this.

I'm having another brainwave about feeding through the ATF "heater"... more on this when I have time...

WOW That sounds like i maybe painful. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

Yeah, my head hurts a lot. So, if you put a sump in the fuel tank and positioned the ATF cooler over it, so all the fuel traveling to the pickup has to pass through it. I think that might work... I think... Owwww!!!

Can ATF coolers be bend?

If they can, bend it round or to half a circle and put the lines into the round.

Otherwise, take a 3" tube and a 1.75" (or whatever suits) tube, stick the smaller tube into the larger one and weld them together with rings at both ends. Mount a water tap at each end and run coolant water through the outer tupe. Put the supply lines in the inner tube.

You get the idea :)

The pickup on the stock tank has some kind of sock on the bottom, when I placed the ATF cooler in the tank, I placed it at that sock so it would be drawing oil over the cooler, um heater I mean.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif


I went to Home Depot last night and picked up the parts to build my own tube in tube counterflow heat exchanger. It was never my intention to heat the oil in the tank to the 150F that is desireable for combustion, I only want to keep it from gelling and able to flow. Most of my heat transfer is coming from the bundled fuel line/heater hose. As it is getting colder though I am needing more heat. I'll try and post some pictures and results of what I find.


BTW, at 150F the viscosity of veg oil is close to that of #2, so I am not worried about the IP, however I am looking for a good deal on a PMD heat sink, you definately loose the cooling effect that is desired when you run hot oil through it. Edited by: veggiesuburban

I have been looking fo a good way to do a fuel line heat exchanger. I was thinking about fuel in an inner pipe, and coolant in the "shell" pipe surounding that. But I want to use as much of the heat from the coolant as I can. I am still pondering the perfect system... I think about it while I am working my truck that doesn't run so good... hope to have evrything buttoned up by tomorrow afternoon. Then I will test some WVO theories.

I posted this seperate, and then looked through the topics...Why can't you take a steel fuel line, and pipe the oil along the exhaust piping?? To increase the volume of heated fuel, just use a bigger line along the exhaust. Reduce it just before the lift pump, and you have warm VO. Or would the oil get too hot, and thin out too much?? Just another idea in the pool.

Ah, just a little note to those doing this heated fuel thing . . . If your PMD is still pump mounted, you'll be cookin' it a crisp if you are sending hot fuel to it.


The exhaust heat is A LOT of heat. You can get over several hundred, up to 1000°F+ depending upon your location on the exhaust system. Maybe a little bit too much of a good thing, and burn your oil up before it gets to the IP. I don't have any hard facts on that, but it's worth consideration in design planning.

I have a question about WVO tank type. Veggie is using the stock tank,
that is steel. I have heard that veggie in steel will rust, quick. Anyone
have any other ideas for a tank between the frame rail and drive shaft on
a 95 Suburban?

I was thiking of using a chevy passenger side pick up tank but the exhaust is right there. If I can use the exhaust heat it would work though, just put the two together.

I see everyone talking about routing their coolant/fuel lines and bundling them together. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want any more coolant hoses to unexpectedly break or come undone. It just makes sense to me to use the closest source of heat (exhaust) to the fuel, and somehow put it to use...maybe an aux. oil or trans cooler mounted on the frame/body near the exhaust...back where the CAT is on the stock exhaust, so the temps won't be too high, especially for those with straight pipe. Place a temp probe (water/oil temp guage??) somewhere in the line coming out of the cooler, and adjust according to the desired temp. I dont have access to the parts to test them out...maybe one of you out there does??


Also, how long would the fuel oil be in the line near the exhaust...I dont know the volume at which fuel would be sucked through the line, but as long as it's constantly moving, it shouldn't get too hot, right---hot oil out, cool oil from the tank in...

I'm thinking with a cutout and a welded channel on the second steel tank, I could heat the fuel with the exhaust and I can switch the cutout if it get's too hot(fuel temp guage?).

At least I'm not the only one thinking about the readily available heat source, almost immediately after starting the vehicle...not sure what you mean, though Quantum...are you thinking of cutting a half circle and fit a piece of pipe into the end of the tank, and butting it up near the exhaust??

what about just cutting two round holes in the tank and running a staight pipe through? What is the flash point of WVO? Proabaly not that low. How hot does the tail pipe get? 250-350*F ? Most deep fryers run at 350*F, so you have some room. But temperature regulation would be troublesome. This makes me wonder about different arrangements. I will do some thinking and get back to you on this.

a cutout is a Y pipe with a diverter inside. One vender has an ad for an electrom=nically controlled unit that is switched in the cab.

...so if you wire that to a DPDT switch and a thermostatic switch you would be all set... What is the optimal temp of the WVO just prior to the IP?

For what I've been reading, 70C would be a good temp just before the IP.

Letting aside the problem of heating the tank, I'd use a plated heat exchanger to warum up the fuel. The plated heat exchangers can be relatively small and still transfer quite a lot of heat, and they can be had cheaply off ebay. The heat would come from engine coolant, so you'll always getting the fuel to the right temp. The return fuel will get you a lot of heat into the tank than ...

Heating the tank can probably best be done electrically. Just heat some oil enough to pump it through the heat exchanger, and the return oil will do the rest. If it gets really could, you might want to use fuel lines of a larger diameter and a strong pump to pump the oil quickly to get more heat. The plated heat exchangers I've seen are rated at about 23kW --- you could heat a family home with that :)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=84 (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=8420&item=79291932 48=1&ssPageName=WDVW) 20&item=7929193248=1&ssPageName=WDVW
Some examples:


http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=98 95&i tem=7929193248&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

stainles steel, rated about 25kW @ 3000l/h

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=84 20&i tem=5929324959&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAP.dll?ViewItem&catagory=842 (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAP.dll?ViewItem&catagory=8420&item=592932495 9&rd=1&ssPageName+WDVW) 0&item=5929324959&rd=1&ssPageName+WDVW

a cheaper one ...


The size of those units is usually about 7.5 inches long, 3 inches wide and 1-3/4 inches thick. It should be easy to find a place to mount it under the hood. Imho, it's the most efficient and reliable way to get the oil to the desired temperature.
Edited by: quantum mechanic

sk8rdi16,

the oil can loosen dirt from the fuel tank which can clog the filter until it's removed. I didn't hear about problems with rust, though.

You've got lots of room in your Suburban, so you could place the tank in the trunk, 2x100l plastic tanks maybe. I'll probably do something like that on my Tahoe, and I want to be able to put either Diesel or SVO into the accessory tanks. The stock tank just empties too quickly.

Why not just have ALL of the return fuel going into the VO tank...this would allow quicker warm-up initially, and there would be much less wiring/piping involved to keep them seperate...just dont fill the tank to the top, and you'd be OK, right?? Then the only switch needs to be to switch from the #2 to the VO and back. I wouldn't think it matters where the fuel is piped back into, as long as you dont put the thicker VO back into the #2 used for start-up.

For the first one to quit talking about it, and take the plunge...here's the tank selector valve, and it appears to switch return lines as well.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33556&item=7929270 827&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) ;category=33556&item=7929270827&rd=1&ssPageName= WDVW

There are is another tank selector valve available at JC Whitney too. Either three port or six port depending upon if you are switching the main fuel line, or main fuel line, and return line too.

JTB4,


Returning all the fuel to the VO tank makes sence really. It would help to lower the viscosity and I think I read about a guy doing that on his 6.5 on www.greasel.com (http://www.greasel.com)

I am considering using a toggle switch to determine which fuel pump is supplying fuel, and a tee with diesel and grease as input and the IP as the output. This elimates the fuel valve. I don't think the fuel will go backwards because of the pumps. I will use a small clear fuel line feeding into the tee to make sure.

HR99,


I had a similiar thought today about that "T" and a power switch. I thought that the power to the fuel pumps would determine supply and a little mixing wouldn't hurt. Let the return line go to the VO tank. It eliminates a few solenoids.

...the problem with that, "a little mixing wouldn't hurt. Let the return line go to the VO tank.", is that it works both ways. Yeah, a little DFO in your WVO won't hurt...but in cold weather... a little WVO in your DFO might mean the difference between starting and not starting. I finally got my Tahoe up and smoking again, so I will be starting the fabrication phase of my install in about a week. Right now I am thinking the ATF cooler in the tank, a single bypass heat exchanger on the line, a copper coils around the fuel filter, a holley blue pump, and a six port solenoid. I will definately post my results... I think this myth the WVO is bad mojo needs to be laid to rest. Good 'ol Rudolph designed the diesel engine to run on peanut oil, why not other vegie oils?

I disagree. My Dad was telling me about a guy he met recently from the abiline area and he presses cotton seed. The local guys out there drive newer PSD's and have them chipped and routinely go 130 mph down the road. They buy his cotton seed oil and pour it straight into their main tanks. It is hot down here, so it might be the big difference. It's been in the 90's and we havn't had our first frost or anything close to it yet. Edited by: quantum mechanic

The thought about using just the two fuel pumps and the Tee is a good idea, BUT . . . your return lines is what you have to take into consideration. Might you be equalizing the levels between tanks? A little veggie here, and little diesel there, and BAM! you've got yourself a cold start cocktail baby! Thicker than my newborn's diaper puddin' in winter. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif Figure out some kinda air gap, or something to elminate inter-mingling of fluids between the two tanks. Check valves may not work in cold cold weather from the veggie being too thick.

A brand new 6-port solenoid is only $55.00 (give or take $2.00). For the peace of mind I will be going that route. It gets cold here... like -20*F in January. So, i like the idea of having a fuel that I can atleast start-up with. I am by no means saying your setup wouldn't work. I just don't think it will work in my environment. Thinking about it now, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to do as you said. It's kind of like those Icelandic Adventure trucks... the average person has no need for a 16 inch wide tire with 2 pounds of air in them. They are purpose driven... they need that setup for what they intend to do. Just as I need two seperate systems for my purpose.

All of that aside... I dig electrical stuff... the more switches I can cleanly incorporate into my rig the better.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth.

On one final note however, I read that someone mentioned corosion as a concern for WVO. As I have come to understand it WVO isn't the culprit behind the corosion. It is caused by the moisture content of the oil. I have read that bringing the oil to 213*F for a short period will help to "dry" it out, as well as aid in filtering. Does anyone have hard and fast facts about these claims?

I can tell you I boiled grease for 4 hours, and it was still poping after that period of time. I can not be sure it was water, but something is still poping. I also know, you better heat the stuff before you try to filter it or the filter clogs and the rate of flow is a drip as compared to a stream.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/0lee/2004-10-26_090457_svo-eng.jpgEdited by: 0lee

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/0lee/2004-10-26_091020_svo-2-eng.jpg

The second one is simpler and doesn't care which type of fuel is in which tank. X-over in the return line is omitted.

I wanted to post them earlier, but didn't find the time ...
Edited by: 0lee

I purposely filter my oil cold. I end up with a thick waxy residue in my filters that if heated will pass through them - I'd rather keep it out of my tank, I fear that although "clean" it would still settle out and cause issues. I have worked out a filter method in which I attach the #2 standard bag filter (7x32) to a clean 1 gallon paint can (that I bought new and unused) with a large hose clamp. I put a fitting in the lid to attach a fuel line to and poked holes in the bottom. I pump the WVO with an old electric 12v fuel pump (6psi max). It isn't fast, but it will filter a 55 gallon drum in a day and a half and I don't need to babysit it. The can has a handle that I hang from a hook over my open drum.

As far as the return line issue...simply plumb the return line ONLY into the WVO tank...then there's no chance of sending VO back into the #2...add a small vent into both tanks to eliminate vacuum issues from pumping fuel out.

Will SVO/SVO mix or sludge with Diesel might be a problem to return Diesel to the SVO/WVO tank, plus you will need some way to monitor tank level as you could potentially overfill the SVO/WVO tank when running on the Diesel only tank and returning bypass fuel to the SVO/WVO tank

VeggieSuburban, what is a #2 standard bag filter?

If you guy are near an agricultural area look for someone pressing seeds for oil. The heat of the press removes the water from it and it can be found for ~$1 a gal.

On the first page there was a comment about using 50/50 SVO and #2.


Has anyone tried this?


Also it seems all of the talk and development is being done by the 6.5 guys. Will any of this work in the D-max?


The 50/50 mix sounds pretty good..maybe too good.


Mike

I put in a gallon of WVO straight into the truck's tank (1/2 full at the time) the other night to test the trucks reaction to having VO in the diesel tank. With winter coming on I will keep the mix 5 to 1 or less and take my time getting up to that level.

There are some types of injection pumps that don't like VO. I'm not familiar with d/max, anyone know? TDG maybe?

VeggieSuburban, what is a #2 standard bag filter?


The term was new to me too. It is a standard filter that is used in some industrial setting. I purchase mine from McMaster-Carr (10 at a time), search part number 5162K76 and you will see what I buy. The previous couple of pages show the housing that these are usually used in, they are $$$$$too expensive for our use, I think they are used in large hydraulic systems, and certain grades for food processing. Since I've been doing this, about 5000 miles, I just ordered my second batch of 10, so they go along way.


I like them for veggie because they hold about 5 gallons each. They have a handle sewed into the top hoop which I hook to a chain that hangs over my 55 gallon drum. I fill them a couple of times a day and filter a lot of oil (cold) with very little time and cost.

food for thought, all this trouble to run WVO in a high dollar engine ???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley11.gif did any of you even try to check the quality of the WVO before you put it in the tank ??? water in the fuel is only one consideration of the quality of the oil being used. seems to me, some other factors should be considered! gell point and others is just the tip of the iceburg, so to speak. some have mentioned the possibility of damage to the injection pump ??? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif what about varnish, coking, PH , and other facter I have not mentioned here. I would at the very least run some basic chemical test as to the REAL QUALITY of the oil your pouring in there !!! In my pesonal opinion, I would take the time to convert this WVO over to a clean and washed biodeisel, because you now have a quality control method and a standardized form of fuel to run in a standard engine setup. This form of fuel also has, many,many other uses. too many to list here. just my opinionhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif

After seeing all of the people running succesfully running WVO, I am not really that concerned about it. That is not to say that if everyone else jumped off the proverbial bridge I would as well. There are a lot of websites out there dedicated to dispelling the myths of running a "free" fuel. I would personally define myself as being anti-society for the sole reason that people rarely do their own research. OD, you bring an interesting point to this discussion, "did any of you even try to check the quality of the WVO before you put it in the tank ???". I would leave that up to the individual. No matter how many times you repeat a warning, someone will always disregard it. Unfortunately for greater society it is the few who control the thoughts of the masses. When is the last time that you heard anything positive about alternative fuels? Don't you find things to be slightly amiss given the lack of advances we have seen in this area? What is really intriguing to me is that the diesel engine was designed around and run for the first time on vegetable oil. Peanut oil, to be exact. Diesel fuel did not exist in a suitable form at the time the engine was conceived. Another point to ponder is that a diesel engine is disigned to be run hard, under varying conditions. I also posit that "filtered #2 diesel" offers you less quality control than you might think. I used to work with a chemical called mono-ethanolamine, that when exposed to atmosphere deteriorated very rapidly. This stuff was made under under the most extreme quality controls you can imagine. But the problems occured in transit and transfer, exactly where you would find problems with diesel fuel. When you fill your truck from a nozzle you can't see or inspect the fuel unless you dip the tank or put some in a beaker prior to filling up. What I am getting at here is that there is no such thing as quality control if the end user doesn't actively engage in it. I would love to see more people do actual research on the subject. I am personally doing some experiments concerning the moisture content and ph levels of various samples I have collected. I have elected not to post my results because I feel that people should ultimately be responsible for their own actions, and this aleviates any blame that could be placed upon me. I certainly hope I have not stepped on anyone toes, and have not scared anyone away from the subject. All I can ask of critics is that you first do your research before turning away from an idea. Thank you OD for bringing up this concern and allowing a chance for further exploration.

...I used to say that a college degree was little more than a "certificate of trainability"...I now see it as a symbol of your own willingness to seek out answers...

Tahoe2dr thank you.

I have a guy selling biodiesel for $1.67 a gallon he delivers a 55 gallon
drum and i put 13 gallons of diesel in my 24 gallon tank then top it off
with his fuel. He processes the french fry grease filtering it and removing
the glycerin. I am on my second tank no problem i have lost one mpg
was getting 19 now I am at 18. LLY engine 2004.5 Chevey Silverado. I
like it. There is a greasel.com site that has kits for those who want to
run straight grease.

Our DMAX runs a very similar system as the Dodge CTD, and for that reason alone, I will assume that there would be no issues in running straight VO/WVO. Check out Greasel's conversion and lack of issues. A lift pump is a must and a good filter is a must. I would also make sure that you had two seperate filtering systems and the 6 way valve be as close to the engine as possible (after the filters) that way you wouldn't have to purge a whole filters worth in the startup/shutdown.


As you can see I have a 50 gallon in bed tank, and I am seriously thinking of a conversion to the WVO in my truck. It will be a hodge podge system, but simple enough to only require a flip of the switch. Biggest thing in my mind is to have a stout enough oil heater with plenty of flow in order to heat the WVO to flow point.


Any other DMAX/CTD/PS-WVO users out there?

I love the smell of grease in the morning...smells like victory.

I am currently thinking of buying a dmax and would love to hear if anyone has had some sucess with this in their dmax.



I know that there is a cummins on the greasecar site that runs on SVO,
is the dmax really that simmilar to the cummins that you could conclude
that if it works there it will work here?



What about all of the info arround about common rail injection and polomerzitation(sp)?



Any more info would be really cool as I want to know as much as possible before making any purchases.






Edited by: ColoradoDmax

Are there any additives that would work with a 50/50 mix of #2 and WVO to keep it thin enough so heating isn't needed.

Just finished reading all 5 pages of posts and my head is spinning!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

Blake

THF (tetrahydrafuran) organic solvent, use 1.1% per volume of fuel mixed. This will enable you to add 7.7% by vol EtOH (ethanol)or MeOH(methanol) to a remaining 50/50 mix petrol and WVO. I don't know what cloud point this mixture would have but WVO clouds at 40*F by itself.

Hey QM, are you mixing this cocktail in your truck's fuel tank, or elsewhere and dumping it in? Seems to me you get the glycerin falling out with the alcohol? What does the THF do?

I tried this mix the night my piston crack got noticed and I never had time to evalueate the effects and I'm three tanks dow the road now.


Knkreb, your right and trans-esterafication will spontanously occour but without an acid/base catalyst the reaction will reach equilrium before any appreciable amount of gylcerine precipitates.

Thanx for the info QM. So what's the THF for?

THF solvates fatty oil and alcohol into a cloudless mixture. Do a goole search on it and you'll see 20,000 other uses and processes. Such as a metabolite for GM (genetically modified) stem celll growth.

Wow, I didn't know there was this much interest in WVO over here on the 'place. For more information than you can shake a stick at on biodiesel, veg. oil, etc. go to http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

I just quickly scanned the earlier posts, so if it has already been posted I apologize in advance. Many of us over there have been running oil for several years/thousands of miles so there is quite a lot of good information to be had.Edited by: habanero

I just read the whole 11 page thread - GREAT EXPERIMENTATION OUT THERE!

I live in MT and am considering a '95 6.5L silverado truck. It seems the challenge up north here is heat for the SVO. There are heated lines, filters, tank heaters, etc and a great resource for us do-it-yurselfers is http://www.danalinscott.netfirms.com/ where you can buy and download files that tell you how to build most of the equipment for 30-50% of premade parts. He also has an excellent step by step page at http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=447609751&f=159605551&m=347104314
I'm convinced that warm, clean WVO is as good as gold, or at least @2.14/gal and just as importantly a great subversion of the petroleum industry. Afterall, the diesel was invented for decentralized fuel use. I can't believe president Shrub will allow the $1/gal tax incentive to come true on Jan 1!!! He's gonna lose some buddies over that one.

Used grease running A diesel engine??????? I'v heard pixie dust mixed with unicorn urine works too.

Used grease running A diesel engine??????? I'v heard pixie dust mixed with unicorn urine works too.

They were originally designed to run on peanut oil. Ya know, the stuff MacDonald's uses to cook the fries in!! :D :D

Yep, Rudolph (Diesel that is, not the reindeer) based the engine design on thermodynamic principles, and his original fuel was vegetable oil. He hoped it would allow commoners access to a cheap fuel without being reliant on industrial interests (like big oil).

I've got over 6000 miles now using straight WVO in my suburban. I've spent less than $100 on fuel, use it just for starting and stopping. I've recovered all my initial costs and just bought a new filter, a Racor 1000FH, should allow me to go 4-6000 miles between filter changes. I've been using one of those small cleanable Racor's that I need to clean anywhere from 60-600 miles, depending on the oil I've got. Cold weather hasn't been much of an issue either, it takes a bit longer to warm up, and unless I need to, I don't keep more that a half full tank so it heats up faster. In any case, just an update....

This is great stuff! I'm not quite ready for the conversion yet but I find it fascinating.

I wouldnt do it on a Duramax. I heard that it is a bad idea in CR applications, but on the news the other night, there was a guy with a load of miles on SVO (2 tank system, etc) on a very new Cummins.

I wonder............

My problem with converting the truck is if/when the injectors puke, GM is definitely not going to like seeing conversion components in there. A proper conversion would be very difficult to "undo" quickly in case of warranty work. That is why I bought my benz to convert and keep the truck stock. I also have some worries about how the electronics of the dmax injection system would handle hot oil flowing through. Too many ifs to take a chance with a 35000 dollar truck, in my opinion.

Veggiesuburban, I'm starting to get parts for a 6.5TD conversion myself. I looked for your post with the parts list and came up empty. Would you please post it again? Any other diagrams or resources would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Stauby

Hmmm, I didn't read the entire post but looks like there are some interested people here with plenty enough noodle to do it themselves, click on my conversion pics and see one way it can be done. :smoke2:

Also I may be mistaken on Rudolph D., but I think his first engine actually was fueled by coal dust;)