Riddle me this...


My '01 truck has 85,000 miles on it, 60,000 of those miles with Juice level 4, occasional additive use, no secondary filtration - and all 8 original injectors. It's running just fine, hauls my 11,000 pound travel trailer at 80mph up and down the east coast with no problems.


Why is it there are other trucks out there that have had 2 or 3 complete sets of injectors replaced by the time they get their second oil change? Is it an injector problem or is there something else in the engine causing the failures? Seems to me that if the engine had a bad injector from the factory, one REPLACEMENT should solve the problem - unless there is something else causing the failure.


I'm not a diesel tech and just barely understand the whole process that makes a diesel engine run, but I HAVE seen detonation destroy the inside of a gas engine.


Is there a way to compare the operating perameters of an engine like mine to one that has had 3 sets of injectors replaced and is waiting for the fourth?


I've never won the lottery or had any other good fortune so it's not my good luck that is keeping the original injectors functioning. What else? It can't just be "Bad Design" or they all would fail.


Anyone shed some light, or do we just not know the reason???

When you find out be sure to tell us.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif BTW my 01 has about 85,000 or so only diff is I'm running the TST Comp instead of the juice. My engine is lot's noiser then it used to be, but still makes good power, dosen't smoke at idle etc.

Someone on another post (spinmaster I think) had a good theory. IIRC, they said they ohm'ed the injectors on his truck, and they weren't in the reasonable parameters. Add that to the fuel pressure going through them maybe?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif

When you find out be sure to tell us.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif

So what's your theory dmaxAlliTech? You've got more experience in this area than anyone else I can think of. You certainly changed lots of them out. I'm not a Tech and don't pretend to be, but I enjoy reading and gaining knowledge, not that I'd ever take one apart or anything like that. It's just interesting to know.

The failure reason is a trade secret. If they told you, you might not buy another one.



Seriously, I think they know exactly why and cannot come up with a COST EFFECTIVE solution.

Ahhhhhhh go drive your Dodge and Shaaatuphttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif

Ahhhhhhh go drive your Dodge and Shaaatuphttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif

Nice... say something you didn't like?

Or as said before...
Why don't you tell me how you really feel? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif

On edit... sorry bud, I see you're down for five weeks and still not fixed because of injectors. I didn't mean to strike a personal nerve. This is stuff that needs to be talked about, as hard as it is to swallow.

GM.... can't believe they're getting into the same BS with stranding people over diesel fuel systems. Either they put out the bucks and fix it right or they deep six their reputation once again. I'm not saying these things to pee anybody off. I'm not bandwagoning my Dodge. I could run into some of the same situations. But I decided this time to give another company a chance to screw me. I think I got out of my last truck lucky. Remember we bought diesels to go the extra mile... paid a big premium for it... than end up with premature failure and premium wait times. Am I holding anything back? If it wasn't for the 200,000 mile warranty, a lot more people would be unloading, approaching 100,000 miles. I'll give GM that much.

You guys with trucks down for weeks because of unavalibility of injectors should be howling a hundred times louder than me.



Edited by: hoot

Hoot,


VERY WELL SAID,


I've howled, bitched, pissed and moaned--don't matter GM has got their standard answer, FUEL Problem and then Hey-your lucky we're gonna take care of it for you--problem is we don't have the parts. Got 6-to-8 weeks?


Deep six their reputation? absolutely-at least for now with me.

Just pokinn' fun Hoot. Another dealer loaned me a 2004 Dodge to use for a weekend. No way I would ever buy one. Rode like a buck board, no room in the back seat and all the tow/haul mode did was lock out the OD. I had a Dodge V-10 before the Chevy, and there is no looking back for me. The Cummins is a wonderful thing, but the rest of the truck is not. At lease we are not suffering the fate of the 6.0 Ford boys. Once Chevy and GM get through the first rash of injectors, then the availability should be better. The only quesion in my mind right now is why all of the GMs and none of the Dodges yet? Certainly Chevy is not foolish enough to believe that the problem is fuel? Are they really that stupid?





Jess

dunno failure reasons exactly, only have theories.


as for the back order, that seems to be getting better, we have got 28 injectors in just this week.. I think I am gonna buy a set for myself just to have them on hand

Which type of injector failure are we talking about? Excessive fuel in the combustion chamber or filling the crankcase up with diesel or excessive return/no start?

Just pokinn' fun Hoot. Another dealer loaned me a 2004 Dodge to use for a weekend. No way I would ever buy one. Rode like a buck board, no room in the back seat and all the tow/haul mode did was lock out the OD. I had a Dodge V-10 before the Chevy, and there is no looking back for me. The Cummins is a wonderful thing, but the rest of the truck is not. At lease we are not suffering the fate of the 6.0 Ford boys. Once Chevy and GM get through the first rash of injectors, then the availability should be better. The only quesion in my mind right now is why all of the GMs and none of the Dodges yet? Certainly Chevy is not foolish enough to believe that the problem is fuel? Are they really that stupid?





Jess








Just exactly what is the fate of the 6.0 boys. Ford took a huge step and did the best thing of all three companies. Admitted the injector design was to blame(along with wiring harness, several little engine packaging deisgns and PI could not be made to work with thier injection system), changed it for the next model year change and now with 04/05 no injector problems. 03's had problems (will grant you that you could not give me one pure crap) but 04/05's are the most problem free, personally, I think of the big three right now.


Dodge is starting to show injector issues also. Lets not forget they have the same injection system as the D-max, high pressure common rail system manufactured by bosch. There are some packaging differences with in the engine in how they are placed and installed but almost identicle. Time will tell as 04.5 and 05 Cummins owners build miles on the newer HO motors. Read TDR, and I will grant you that anything you read on the internet needs to be taken with a grain of salt (including 6.0 complaints last I checked they sell as many 6.0's as the Cummins and D-max combined), and you will see injector problems on the 600 Cummins motor pretty commanly. Those guys really stick together too so it must be happening pretty commanly.


Here is my theory on the injection issue. I think it is the pilot injection (or split shot which ever you prefer to call it) and the double cycling of the injectors at idle. Now I can hear the response. But at high RPM's it is operating faster than at idle. With a piezo electric injector the injector does not fully return to seated position when the first injection event of the two occurs on the idle cycle, before the second main event. Furthur in the RPM range the injector still seats because it has more time to (a second complete roration of the crank) with the idle cycle it is firing twice in nano seconds and could be causing abnormal wear in the injector causing the eventual failure during duty cycle life. I think this may be some of the problems, combined with fuel quality. But these are just my impressions/opinions and I do not have anything more than an edjucated hunch to base them on.Edited by: Jason S

…<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Here is my theory on the injection issue. I think it is the pilot injection (or split shot which ever you prefer to call it) and the double cycling of the injectors at idle. Now I can hear the response. But at high RPM's it is operating faster than at idle. With a piezo electric injector the injector does not fully return to seated position when the first injection event of the two occurs on the idle cycle, before the second main event. Further in the RPM range the injector still seats because it has more time to (a second complete rotation of the crank) with the idle cycle it is firing twice in nano seconds and could be causing abnormal wear in the injector causing the eventual failure during duty cycle life. …

Jason,

Your theory makes sense! It may also explain why some trucks get noisier with age… My 03 with 32k miles is definitely louder than it used to be. Last night when fueling up there was a new Dmax idling at the next pump and it was noticeably quieter than mine. Maybe the accuracy of the pilot injection &amp; timing is decreasing as the injectors wear (??). This might in turn be causing the additional “diesel noise” and “fuel knock” many have reported.



IIRC, the 03 Helms manual shows three different plots of actual fuel pressure vs. expected fuel pressure at idle. The first plot is for a new/good engine with 0 miles, the second for a good engine with 28k miles and the third is a problem engine. The new engine plot shows a flat response for both requested and actual fuel rail pressure. The 28K engine shows a fairly flat response with some “bumps”. Not sure but I would guess the bumps indicate that the ECM is trimming each injector pulse-width &amp; timing (balance) to maintain a constant idle RPM. On the bad engine plot the bumps are much bigger indicating poor balance and rough idle. The thing that struck me was the difference in the 0 mile engine plot and the 28kmile engine plot . GM knows that something will change – wear - and cause the balance to change….seems like that would be the injectors (??).


<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Ti

[QUOTE=jbplock] the 03 Helms manual shows three different plots of
actual fuel pressure vs. expected fuel pressure at idle. The first plot is for
a new/good engine with 0 miles, the second for a good engine with 28k
miles and the third is a problem engine. The new engine plot shows a flat
response for both requested and actual fuel rail pressure. The 28K engine
shows a fairly flat response with some “bumps”. Not sure but I would
guess the bumps indicate that the ECM is trimming each injector pulse-
width & timing&lt;SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"&gt;* &lt;/SPAN&gt;(balance) to
maintain a constant idle RPM. On the bad engine plot the bumps are
much bigger indicating poor balance and rough idle. The thing that
struck me was the difference in the 0 mile engine plot and the 28kmile
engine plot . GM knows that something will change – wear - &lt;SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"&gt;*&lt;/SPAN&gt;and cause&lt;SPAN style="mso-
spacerun: yes"&gt;* &lt;/SPAN&gt;the balance to change….seems like that would
be the injectors (??).&lt;SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"&gt;*&lt;/SPAN&gt;&lt;/
SPAN&gt;


&lt;SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial;
mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New
Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: EN-US; mso-bidi-: AR-
SA"&gt;&lt;SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"&gt;*http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley23.gif&lt;/SPAN&gt;&lt;/SPAN&gt;[/
QUOTE]

You can do that live plot with the tech 2, the illistrations shown in the
manual are examples ONLY


when you do the live plot on the Tech 2, there is some irregularity, be it a
new engine or one withh 100k, if you watch the peramiters even though
the idle sounds smooth and even, it is actually fluctuating sometimes as
much as 50+ rpm. not enough to move the tach, but the Tech 2 will pick
it up.

I just used this (live plot) function the other day to conferm an FPR diag. it
is interesting to watch as the FPR goes into its fit. you can see the surge,
engine rpm and the base line ( desired FP ) all at the same time.

The Tech 2 is a really neat tool, someday I'll know how to fully use all of
its functions !

Kevin Edited by: Blkvoodoo

Here is my theory on the injection issue. I think it is the pilot injection (or split shot which ever you prefer to call it) and the double cycling of the injectors at idle. Now I can hear the response. But at high RPM's it is operating faster than at idle. With a piezo electric injector the injector does not fully return to seated position when the first injection event of the two occurs on the idle cycle, before the second main event. Furthur in the RPM range the injector still seats because it has more time to (a second complete roration of the crank) with the idle cycle it is firing twice in nano seconds and could be causing abnormal wear in the injector causing the eventual failure during duty cycle life. I think this may be some of the problems, combined with fuel quality. But these are just my impressions/opinions and I do not have anything more than an edjucated hunch to base them on.

"With a piezo electric injector"

Who is using piezo? Not in the Dmax or Cummins. They are simple coil solenoids.

I heard they are having problems with body cracking. Another one I heard was the check valve ball seat wearing.

Broker has the magic. Millions of miles on many trucks over three years and I think he only lost one.

From what I have read and it is quite a bit. The Bosch simple coil selinoid is a piezo selinoid. I may have wrong info and I honestly do not know. When I get home from work I will look on the history of the home computer and find some of the stuff I have read on PI.


From a study or two I have heard the injectors do not get fully closed between the pilot injection event and the main injection event. Alternitivly this is most of the reason Ford went away from PI is thier electronics could not support the processing ability to control the idle in real world usage. It created a rolling idle as the processer tried to make up for changes in idle usually after oil changes causing aeration of the oil. What the 6.0 boys call the romps. Additionally it looks like it became oil viscosity sensitive also. Granted they use a wholey different injection system. As to the Dodge and GM trucks I may be wrong but I think it has to do with the PI and the injection problems. Hoot did Cummins have the "quiet idle" in the 03 305/555 trucks? I don't think they did I think that was and 04 and then 04.5 change. This is where the problems are starting to show on the Dodge rigs. As to GM's Duramax it is a great motor and problaby has the best sound in my opinion but wonder what would happen if they disabled the PI and seen what it did to the rate of failure with the injectors. Ford has gotten thier diesel really quiet without PI and I know GM is now using some of the EGR recurculation to quiet thiers down also. When Dodge had the 305/555 HO cummins in the 02 trucks they are noisy as all get out but there are a ton of those out thier used for hauling and have a lot of high milage rigs with stock injectors still in them no problems. Again just my opinion.

To my knowledge, all 305/555 CR engines are pretty much identical. Dodge started using them in the 03 model year. All use Bosch common rail and all use pilot injection. And as far as I know all 03's are quiet.


I didn't think they ever had a 305/555 in an 02 model truck. They were 235/460 and 245/505 HO. Sure those trucks were noisy.. they were the old style VP44 injection.

I would think if GM/Bosch/Isuzu thinks the pilot injection is the culprit, wouldn't you think that they would have done something like Ford has done?

I do notice on my Dodge that when the engine is cold and I hit the accelerator, I get a nice diesel rattle. I haven't had it in the winter yet but I believe this thing is gonna rattle pretty good for a while till she warms up. That's something my Dmax hardly did at all. Wonder why the difference. Wonder if they have the PI settings a lot different?Edited by: hoot

I don't know about the 02 trucks as to ratings, but man my neibor has one and it wakes me up when I start it (I am working the graveyard shift right now).


If the 03's are not having injector problems with Dodge who knows. Reading TDS it sounds like a 600 problem but you never know how prevelent any of these problems there are reading about them on the net. For every guy complaining about it on the net there are 100's happy and not caring what people on here think. Is the LLY experiencing this?