This story is really kind of a depressing, but I will share it with you all anyways. I bought a '95 Burb about 2 months ago with 133k miles on the clock. I had it inspected by an independent shop, and everything looked great. I replaced OPS, Lift Pump, Fuel filter, A/C low-pressure switch, serpentine belt, A/C Relay, and the horn relay. My wife took it on a road trip to California, and half way there the AC Compressor seized, and broke the serpentine belt while she was doing 70 mph. Needless to say, it was a very scary experience for her. Thankfully she made it to a repair shop, which charged her $140 bucks to replace the belt and disconnect the compressor clutch.

So here I am thinking about all the money I have already dumped into this heep, and wondering how in the world I am going to pay $1,000 to fix the A/C.

Now this is where it gets really bad. Not even a week after she gets back from California, we were driving down the road and white smoke starts billowing from the tail pipe. I pull over and with in seconds coolant is flowing from the turbo down pipe. We are talking major head gasket and most like head problems.
After much consideration, I have decided to install a new long block, at the tune of about $6,000 parts and labor. My question to all of you, is do you think this rig is worth it? It has 137k miles on it right now, what kind of problems can I still expect from the 4x4 drive train? I essentially paid for the truck twice now, and I expect it to go 200k miles with no more problems. I guess what I am really after, is for some words of encouragement. Is this a good decision, or should I go for the cheapest fix possible and hope for the best? Edited by: Juancho

You're basically in the same situation that I was in 4 weeks ago, except my motor threw a rod rather than have the head gasket problems. I had already dumped about $400 into the A/C (mind you that is just parts as I do all my own work), and over my ownership period had one little thing after another go. The little things never bothered me, even though the prices added up, because it was always something relatively simple and the fact was that the truck was 7 years old and had 142-173k miles on it (depending on the time) and, as I have said repeatedly on this forum, these trucks are getting older, stuff wears out on them.

When I had to make my decision, I was looking at about $4000 for a Jasper long block, plus having to buy a core motor as mine was bad. Plus I was looking at having to do the motor swap myself (something that I can do), and another $300 or so with core charge for the starter that got shot out by a piece of connecting rod (the really funny part is that that starter still turned!). So I was figuring somewhere in the $4500-$5000 range to do the motor. You're looking at about $7000 to get the truck back on the road between the motor and the A/C.

What I did next is what you should do. I decided to add up all of my expenses that I knew I had and then all the expenses that I thought I would incur over the next 50,000 miles, taking into account stuff that I figured was probable to fail based on the life of the motor. I also added in things that I knew needed to be replaced but I hadn't gotten around to yet (bushings, ball joints, shocks), and added in an extra "Unexpected ****" category, because little things break and add up over time (I probably spent at least $500 on little things over the 1 years I had the truck). When it came down to it, I was looking at a whole ton of money just to keep this '97 173k mile truck on the road over the next 50k miles. As in, enough to buy a nicer truck. The other thing which is an issue for me (and I'm guessing an issue for you if you take this truck on long trips) is that if it fails on you you're not local, you can be hundreds of miles away from base. For me, I can be 300-500 miles away from base when something goes wrong (and it has). I will say that IF I ONLY DROVE WITHIN 100 MILES OF HOME I WOULD HAVE REBUILT OR PUT IN A USED 6.5 AND KEPT ON DRIVING.

So, going based on the amount of money I was expecting to spend I could buy a better, nicer truck. Unfortunately, they still had more miles than I wanted. So, long story short (well, this has been a pretty long story), I bought a brand new Dodge Ram with the Cummins, much to the chagrin of some people on this forum. However, I own it from new and I have 100k miles until I really have to worry about paying to replace the expensive items. Yay for warranties! BUT my personal situation allowed for it, I don't know if yours would, and that's your business.

If I were you, I would suggest adding up perspective costs over the period of time you expect to keep the truck (I will gladly send you the spreadsheet I came up with, if that helps) and examining that, your personal situation, and then either 1) going ahead and sticking to this truck or 2) cutting your losses and buying a new truck. By new, I do mean brand new. In my opinion, used ones aren't worth it. Trucks hold their resale value much too well, and a less expensive used one has the same risks that this Suburban had.

Anyway, sorry for the lengthy post, but I hope that it is of some help to you.Edited by: tdupuis

I can't but help thinking the thing to do is put the head gaskets on yourself. Don't feel up to it?


Well, in that case your options are limited. I live in the word of contract labor. I would subcontract the labor that I'm unwilling or unable to do. That is, I would find a willing mechanic and get him to do the work at my place and if necessary provide some tools and all the parts be for he arrives. You simply pay hm to get dirty under your hood.


Personally, I would embrace the potenial learnig opportunity and do the labor myself while I'm reativly young and up to it.

Jauncho, I'll offer this up, it's broke now how much more "broker" can you make it, head gaskets are relatively easy job, get a good manual and try it, I'm with QM on this one good learning opportunity here, even if you just get heads pulled and have to get it towed in you will have saved a bunch of labor just getting engine down to the point for further troubleshooting.


While you are at it fix the A/C yourself what is the $1000 price tag for that, another self do, with exception of pulling down and charging system after you fix whatever caused you to lose the charge in the 1st place, fix the mechanical problem then take it to any good automotive shop for the vac pull down and recharge fo about $100 or less; this stuff isn't rockect science, mostly takes a little peserverence you will amaze youself what you are capable of.

> what kind of problems can I still expect from the 4x4 drive train?

I've had some leaking seals around 120kkm or so:


+ passenger side drive shaft into front diff
+ drivers side drive shaft into front diff
+ rear driving shaft into transfer case


You can fix all those yourself, and the gaskets aren't expensive.


Parts that failed on me up to now, truck bought at 101kkm 15 months ago, almost 172kkm now:


+ glow plug relay
+ in some way, the battery cable terminals
+ coolant thermostat
+ PMD
+ tube to check/fill in transmission oil
+ alternator
+ the above seals
+ one of the oil cooler lines
+ shocks (were worn out, replaced @ ~147kkm)
+ vacuum pump
+ some wires on solenoid bank


- windshield wipers still need to be repaired because
they every now and then get stuck
- spraying washing water on the windshield on the
drivers side doesn't work very well, seems that
the tubing leaks at the pump, still needs to be
fixed


Some of those things should have already been fixed by previous owners, but I think none of them did much, if anything at all, on her. 100kkm on a 7 year old car are not much (if 100kkm is actually true; if I'd find out that it is not, the dealer is getting into trouble), so the previous owners didn't drive very much.

But as I'm driving a lot, any part that has become weak or has begun to fail shows up or actually fails pretty soon. That's something inevitably included in the deal when buying a car of that age with not so many miles on it and suddenly putting it to demanding use it hasn't seen before.

I don't know what I would do if the engine or the tranny breaks --- I'd want to keep her, but getting a Suburban instead would be nice because it's larger, but I'd have to consider getting a pickup because of tax issues.


PS:

Shifting to 4L doesn't work very well. The front wheels are driven immediately when shifting to 4H, but they are usually not when going to 4L. I need several tries to get them driven in 4L, and the last time I tried, it didn't work at all.

I don't manage to shift to 4L with the engine running. I can get the lever to N without cracking sounds from the transfer case, but then I'm stuck in N. Thus, I turn the engine off, shift to 4L and turn it on again. Maybe that's the reason for not getting the front wheels driven in 4L.

Any idea how that can be fixed? --- I don't need 4L very much, but when going into deep sand, it's required.

And the wipers! It's very annoying and dangerous having to pull aside on the highway to get out and move them. How can I get at the wiper assembly to fix them?
Edited by: 0lee

Lee,


If I dug out the reciepts over the last three or four years it would be a big list and the wiper moter was one of the parts I've replaced.


When shifting to 4L, I usually put the gear in N shift to 4L and the put the gear in D. It will clunk loudly everytime and you have to wait for the thermorelay to engage.

When shifting to 4L, I usually put the gear in N shift to 4L and the put the gear in D. It will clunk loudly everytime and you have to wait for the thermorelay to engage.





That's how I do it too. Seems to work fine. But taking her outta 4Lo causes me problems sometimes. I stop, put the tranny in neutral, then shift the t-case from 4Lo to 4Hi or 2Hi, and sometimes there's a grinding sound. Seems the only way to avoid it is to slam the t-case lever hard and fast from 4lo to whatever I'm trying to get to.


Is this normal?

QM, doing a search here doesn't show up anything useful.

My feeling is that the wiper motor is ok, but the arms going from the motor to the wipers --- or whatever drives them --- are either rusted or badly worn out. When the wipers are stuck, the motor is still trying hard, but the wipers are just too hard to move. To get them going, I engage the wiper motor and same time pull at the drivers side wiper arm. It's sometimes so hard to pull that I'm afraid to bend or to brake the wiper arm or the driving assembly that must be hidden somewhere under the plastic grid which carries the spraying nozzles and where the mounting taps of the wiper arms stick through.

After making the wiper arms moveable that way, I dismount the wiper arms and spray some grease or silicone spray onto the mounting taps of the wiper arms. The mounting taps do not look like spraying them could do any good, but without spraying them, they get stuck very soon again. The spraying is a great improvement, as they are working again for some time, until the spray has been washed off.

But the problem is getting worse over time, and winter is actually coming with its rainy days. I must fix that soon.


For shifting to 4H or 4L, the manual says that you must not to shift the gear to N but drive slowly and then, with no power on the tranny, shift the transfer case. I tried that, but I got only into N before the car stopped and made shifting impossible; it was only once that I actually managed to get through N into 4L, but not without those crunching sounds from the gearwheels. After that, I decided not to try it again, as I will brake some gearwheel sooner or later that way.

But shifting into N and then the transfer case might do it, I'll have to try. --- But, is there any reason that shifting into 4L with the engine off doesn't work? I'm not sure, but I think shifting into 4H with engine off works fine, so it should with 4L, too.

How does engaging the front wheels work? I've noticed some black, electrical device in the shape of a tube sitting at the bottom of the front diff. Is that a thermorelay? What does the thermorelay do?
Edited by: 0lee

Lee,


I'll walk you through it. The thing that drives the arm is the wipermotor. You remove the drivers'side arm, loosen the three sheetmetal screws holding the motor to the fire wall unplug it and it comes right off. Put a new one on and no more problems.


I have started in 4L and 4H it the relay will engage within a few seconds usually sometimes longer. Running slightly different sized tires, as I have, make the engagement and disengagement worse.

> Seems the only way to avoid it is to slam the t-case lever hard and fast from 4lo to whatever I'm trying to get to.

My understanding is that 2H<-->4H is synchronized, but 2H<-->N and N<-->4L are not. This means that provisions have been made to make the gearwheels spin at the same speed when shifting 2H<-->4H, thereby avoiding the tears of the gearwheels clunking into each other hard.

Thus, the manual says not to shift gear to N when shifting the transfer case: The gears in the transfer case are spinning when car moves because they are driven by the wheels. If you shift to N before shifting the transfer case, the gearwheels on the transmission side might stop spinning, but the gearwheels on the other side are still turning, and the synchronisation stuff will try to spin up the gearwheels on the transmission side which can be hard to do with the tranny in N.

You should still do all the shifting with no power on the transmission, and you must not forcefully push the lever in any case.

When shifting 2H<-->N or N<-->4L, the gearwheels in the transfer case are not synchronized and thus turn at different speeds. When shifting, either they will clonk hard, or they are standing 'tear to tear' against each other. In the latter case, you will unable to shift at all.

You can feel it when the gearwheels stand 'tear against tear' when shifting the transfer case with tranny in N in any case, as you just cannot shift.


Further, my understanding is that when shifting 2H-->N-->4L or the other way round with the engine still running and the car not moving, some gearwheels are still spinning *though the tranny is in N*. You just cannot shift then because the tears on the gearwheels gnaw very hard at each other.

Thus, it seems best to turn the engine off before shifting through N into 4L. Unless the gearwheels stand tear against tear to each other, it works fine, but when they do, you cannot shift either.

I'm easily shifting 2H<-->4H, you just need to get right moment with no power on the tranny. But to get into 4L or out of it, I always turn the engine off. The only problem is that the front wheels are usually not driven when shifting to 4L that way.

Thanks everyone for your input. I plan on fixing the A/C myself, but I definitely having a shop install the new long block. I got the turbo and exhaust manifold off, before I decided to take it to the shop. The truth of the matter is, I don not have the time, tools, or space to replace the long block myself.

I can work on my old VW’s until the cows come home, but this 6.5TD is a whole different animal, and I do not feel comfortable stumbling through the process on my own. This will however, be the first, and last time I take it to a shop to get the repair done. Everything else, I will fix myself.

Olee,
Speaking of which, how can you tell if your seals are leaking? High level, what is involved in changing them?

QM, thanks, removing the motor will be easy enough. It's only the hidden assembly 'behind' it I want to get at.

But you got me to the idea of removing the motor and trying to move the wipers manually. If they move easily, it may be actually the wiper motor that needs to be replaced ...

> I have started in 4L and 4H it the relay will engage within a few seconds

Did you shift with the engine off? 4H always works, but 4L MOTT does not.

I think getting into 4L with the engine off is a thing that simply _must_ work: When you drive around off road and then suddenly get stuck in the deep sand or the like, you must shift to 4L because in 4H, there's not enough power to turn the wheels any more, it all gets lost in the converter. But with the car not moving and the engine running, you cannot shift to 4L.

I didn't dare to rev up to more than 1500 rpm for a few seconds in such cases for not to damage the tranny --- maybe wheels will turn when the stall speed is reached.


I'll go out now and try what I can do about the wipers ... :)

When shifting to 4L, I usually put the gear in N shift to 4L and the put the gear in D. It will clunk loudly everytime and you have to wait for the thermorelay to engage.





That's how I do it too. Seems to work fine. But taking her outta 4Lo causes me problems sometimes. I stop, put the tranny in neutral, then shift the t-case from 4Lo to 4Hi or 2Hi, and sometimes there's a grinding sound. Seems the only way to avoid it is to slam the t-case lever hard and fast from 4lo to whatever I'm trying to get to.


Is this normal?





In my operators manual going into and out of 4 L MUST be done stopped in N, actually in my OBDII truck the 4L light just blinks if I don't do it that way, I don't know if OBDI trucks have this interlock feature.

when you say your wipers get stuck you mean they stop working even when on, sometimes in the middle of the windshield? if so it is a very common problem with an easy fix if you have a soldering pen. take the black plasic cover off of the wiper motor (torx screws) and slide the main board strait out. re-solder all of the posts that go from the harness to the board adding a little more solder to each connection make sure you melt them completely and get a good connection. re assemble and your done. i did it once 2 years ago but only resoldered the connections i could see had cracked but a couple months later i was back in it to do the rest of them. no problems since!

Lee on the wipers, there was a recall on the control board up to 97 model problem with cold solder joints on the board, remove the motor cover & the board pulls off of the motor, check the joints you can re-solder them sometimes and fix them,


The other problem is sticky relay contacts, just happened to me, alas I'm out of the warranty window with my 98, I was getting intermittent no wiper working, popping the hood and tapping on the wiper motor box would get them working for a while, but the only time they quit was guess when, During a rain shower of course; I replaced the module $57 US so I'm all better & drier now http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif.

QM, thanks, removing the motor will be easy enough. It's only the hidden assembly 'behind' it I want to get at.

But you got me to the idea of removing the motor and trying to move the wipers manually. If they move easily, it may be actually the wiper motor that needs to be replaced ...

> I have started in 4L and 4H it the relay will engage within a few seconds

Did you shift with the engine off? 4H always works, but 4L MOTT does not.

I think getting into 4L with the engine off is a thing that simply _must_ work: When you drive around off road and then suddenly get stuck in the deep sand or the like, you must shift to 4L because in 4H, there's not enough power to turn the wheels any more, it all gets lost in the converter. But with the car not moving and the engine running, you cannot shift to 4L.

I didn't dare to rev up to more than 1500 rpm for a few seconds in such cases for not to damage the tranny --- maybe wheels will turn when the stall speed is reached.


I'll go out now and try what I can do about the wipers ... :)



It is most likely NOT the motor that is the problem. Try wiggling the plug on the motor while the wipers are running.


They had a recall because of bad solder joints on the PCB under the cover. It can be fixed easily in a few minutes by resoldering a few spots.

I remembered that you pull the wiper toward you and there's a bolt holding it to the wiper assembly on a short arm. You don't have to remove the arms you sweep them forward like your starting to clean the windsheild because you have to let them rotate to get that motor out and when you put the new one back make sure you're at the right spot in the rotation or your wipers will sit too high while at rest. I remembered it's a little difficult to get it free and get it back just right. sorry lee, at least you know to look at for it.


So... I guess you can fix it cheap. I replaced mine with a lifetime warrnty motor and it never gave me another problem.Edited by: quantum mechanic

> Speaking of which, how can you tell if your seals are leaking?

When the seals are leaking, oil is dropping out of the diff housing where the drive shafts go into it, or the oil is coming out of the transfer case housing and running to the back along the drive shaft, respectively.

For the front seals, you can put a rubber mat or the like on the ground under the front diff so that you can see if oil drops out. Diff oil is relatevily thick, thus it leaks slowly. You will be able to see if it leaks when you look under the truck, but using the mat may be easier. Be sure that there's still oil in the diff before :)

For the transfer case, look under the truck, especially at the drive shaft. With the oil on the shaft, the shaft looks as if it is wet from water.

> High level, what is involved in changing them?

I'm not sure for the front seals --- I didn't do it myself. I would do it myself now, as I've learned on such things a bit in the meantime.

Basically, it involves getting the drive shaft out of the diff. It's a bit hard to come by ... There are U-joints on the drive shafts --- to get the shafts out of the diff, you might have to open the U-joints (or one of it) to be able to pull the shaft.

When the shaft is pulled out, you can take the seal off and replace it with a new one. Drivers side and passengers side seals are different!

For the transfer case, I've been watching the mechanic doing it: Open the U-joint that fixes the drive shaft to the rear diff, pull the shaft out of the transfer case and replace the seal. The new seal can be very thight to get in place; do that carefully to get it into position without damageing it.

In any case, make sure that you actually have the right seals in advance. After removing a seal, the used one usually cannot be put back on. At last, don't forget to check the oil level on the diff and on the transfer case and replace oil that has dropped out. Use diff oil on the diff and tranny oil on the transfer case, they use different oil.


PS: Afaik, there are seals inside the diff housing, but you won't want to replace them because doing that would involve disassembling the diff and putting it back together. Putting it back together requires to adjust the gearwheels in the diff which is not so easy.

There's probably also a seal inside the transfer case, but I'm sure you won't want to take _that_ apart :)

Replacing the outer seals worked for me, no oil is leaking any more :)
Edited by: 0lee

> Try wiggling the plug on the motor while the wipers are running.

I can hear the motor trying to run when the wipers are stuck.

> So... I guess you can fix it cheap.

Well, if I should guess, I'd say they'll be asking EUR 100--150 for the motor, if not more.

Now, it's getting dark, I still have to check it ... :)

I hold the old seal next to the new one and visually inspect them. I have had the wrong one before.


The donut I got for myexhaust was 1 7/8" but it came up in the computer as the right part and was marked as being for 395 82-95. The right part was marked 395 no year. Are the L56 manifold collector smaller? it would be news to me.


If it's trying to run while it's stuck, it's not the connection, it's the motor.Edited by: quantum mechanic

I remembered that you pull the wiper toward you and there's a bolt holding it to the wiper assembly on a short arm. You don't have to remove the arms you sweep them forward like your starting to clean the windsheild because you have to let them rotate to get that motor out and when you put the new one back make sure you're at the right spot in the rotation or your wipers will sit too high while at rest. I remembered it's a little difficult to get it free and get it back just right. sorry lee, at least you know to look at for it.


So... I guess you can fix it cheap. I replaced mine with a lifetime warrnty motor and it never gave me another problem.





I think on later models it's easier to remove I've only done it on my 98, I just removed the torx screws on cover plate, and with finesse was able to pull the cover off the motor using same finesse on the reinstall put it back together, I did not have to pull any pins or links to replace the control module

If it's trying to run while it's stuck, it's not the connection, it's the motor.





Not necessarily, mine tried, but stuck relay wasn't allowing full power to the motor to make it run.

> Try wiggling the plug on the motor while the wipers are running.

I can hear the motor trying to run when the wipers are stuck.

>



If you can hear it trying to run when it's stuck, that's the motor.

I say go for the cheap fix first.....If only I had know 3 or so years ago.

They are asking EUR 220.17 for the wiper motor, that's about $260!

I took a look, again, on the motor, but I decided to get at it tomorrow. I'll take it off and maybe see if I can clean up the transmission that seems to be attached. I'm _not_ going to buy a new one for that money.

QM, where did you get your replacement? Was it that costly?


Ah, the relay, where is it located? Once or twice, I've seen the wipers wiping continously though the switch was on interval. Sometimes they stopped somewhere on the windshield, i. e. in the middle or in the up position or somewhere in between, and after some time, they were wiping again as they were supposed to for no particular reason. Maybe it's only the power supply that's faulty.
Edited by: 0lee

Thanks everyone for your replies. After much consideration, I have decided to cancel my reman block on order, and just go for a cheap fix. I will have the shop tear down the block, and then I will have a look at the heads. I also want them to remove the oil pan a check for potential rod damage. If it threw a rod, then its for sale cheap. If there only fine cracks in the head, I will have them replace the head gaskets, and bolts only. If the head damage is a little more substantial, I will have them rebuilt.


Next Satsurday, is the King County vehical auction by my house. They have a couple late model Burbs we may seriously consider, depending on the severity of the damage to our Burb.


P.S. There is a used car lemon law in Washinton State, and we are definately considering legal action against the shop which checked the truck out for us ,and said everything looked great.Edited by: Juancho

Save the long block for when you throw a rod like Ted did.

I know this will not help anything and I am not blaming, but I noticed you say the wife made it to a shop with no sepr. belt. I can't help but point out this may have caused the overheat that killed the head gasket. Those year trucks had a lack of coolant flow in the heads as it is now take all the flow away.
It sounds like you can do stuff to the truck so I would pull the heads if I were you. It may take you longer than a pro but easy to do just the same. If at that point you don't feel comfortable assembling it tow it to a shop. It will save you money and it's a concern dropping a lot of cash into a used truck.

Not sure how much legal action you can take against the shop. A/C compressors don't always give signs as to when they're going to go, sometimes they just up and seize up on you. This has happened to people I've known with FRESHLY REBUILT compressors, as in they put them in the car, 10 miles later boom. You definitely can't tell that a head gasket is about to blow or that a head is about to crack, best you can do in that case is a general prediction "Well, the head gaskets on these cars usually go at about..." Not saying you shouldn't pursue legal action against them if you can, but I'm not sure just how much legal action you can do.

I think that the cheap fix is the right way to go if you plan on keeping this truck. I'm hoping that by "tear down the block" you mean just pull off the offending head and oil pan. This can all be accomplished without pulling the motor, saving a lot of time and effort. I seriously doubt you threw a rod. If you did, you would probably have a noticable hole in the side of the block or oil pan. In my case it was one hole on either side of the oil pan. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif That's when you need a long block or replacement truck.

Speaking of which, my friend who is buying "big bird" off of me should be popping up here eventually to seek advice. Right now he's still figuring out where to buy his rebuilt motor from.

Update, the shop I took it to, has decided to not even touch it. Not sure what else to do. Sounds like just replacing head gaskets is not a good option at this point. Anyone want a real nice Suburban LT with blown head gasket? What is a fair price?

John,


They don't want that work, because all of a sudden, you know as much as them about fixing your truck. Yyou don't want them.


You'd be better off to take the truck back to your house and find a local mechanic that works at a shop and ask what he would charge to do the head gasket at your house, that is, in his spare time. This is absolutly the best situation money wise.Torque wrenches can be barrowed from autozone, rented from other stores. Torque pattern and sequence was on the 6.2L forum recently. a service manuel will have all this information with pictures and instructions, as will allfax.com iirc is $25 with GM procedures on repairs, gm part numbers.