Just wondering if anyone knows if the Ford and Dodge guys are having the same problem as us as far as having to do tranny upgrades with 100hp+ boxes and programers or else risk damage.


I hear so much good about the Allison and how stout it is, so you would think that the competition may even be doing more damage to their transmission with say a 125hp edge juice.

From what I've read (and 18k driving with performance mods on an LLY):


100HP is not going to hurt the Allison for normal driving and occasional pulls and drag events.


The Allison does not "break" when you exceed the design torque, it slips because the clutches in it are designed for smooth operation at lower torque levels. This is not a weakness, it is intentional. A trans that has huge grip and pressures shifts hard is not good for the masses.


For higher HP apps, you need to increase the pressure on the clutches and give them more holding power. You rebuild it with higher pressure valves, and clutches with more friction.


There is NOT an automatic on the market for any passenger vehicle that will withstand 700ftlbs of torque for very long under HD use. This is true for all brands. The Allison 1000 is at least as strong (if not stronger) than any other auto on the market.


An Allison will live quite a while at 100hp over stock. But it's a function of abuse and time. Bring that number to 200, and it's shorter, and 300, it will die pretty quick.


For stock applications, the Allison is well proven to be reliable. But no auto trans will live at twice the stock HP for long.

Dodge is know for transmissions all around it products.

There is NOT an automatic on the market for any passenger vehicle that will withstand 700ftlbs of torque for very long under HD use. This is true for all brands. The Allison 1000 is at least as strong (if not stronger) than any other auto on the market.


I would tend to diagree with that. The old THM400 was greatly under rated.(parent of the 4L80/85) I have seen them live very long lives behind 600HP and bigger motors and there are some 25 plus year old ones out there today that have never been rebuilt that still work fine hauling around old P/U's or old big heavy 5000lb+ cars. I doubt you would see a ally after 10 years of use that has not been overhauled at least once or twice. Back in the 70's and 80's we used THM 400's in drag cars that were running in the 10's and better with 5000 RPM stall converters and shifting between 7500 and 8000 rpm (far more stress than a ally ever sees) We destroyed a few engines and broke a few rear ends including a custom Dana 60 but never any tranny problems. The real main reason GM went with the ally is not because the 4L80E could not be redesigned and beefed up to handle it but because the Dmaxs very narrow power band needed more than 4 gears to do its best. The old Chrysler 727 torqueflite was fairly bullet proof too. I remember seeing commercails on TV were they would shift a 727 equipped car with abig engine rapidly for forward to reverse with gas pedal in the floor with tire smoke going everywhere. Try that with a Ally!Edited by: snoman

and I bet that those thm 400's came right out of a stock auto and put into the drag car too!!!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Down.gif

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif My daily dose of humor for the dayhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Torque is what pisses off the trans in these trucks IMO


So what is so weak or problematic about the allison there snowman or what should be done to get it performing as good as a stock turbo400 from the 70's?


But you saw a dodge comercial back in the 70's so the 727 must be a better transhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Put that 400 or 727 behind your Duramax and then stomp it a couple of times and see if you still have a one piece case.


mike

In all fairness the old 400 and the slip and slide powerglide were strong trannies and held high RPM, high HP gas motors well. But, I bet neither would last long at all in my truck pulling 20,000+ of backhoe and trailer up a hill at 2,000 RPM http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif.

The TH400, Glide, and 727 were good trans. No longer in production, and lacking the number of gears necessary for a street diesel.


Like Mike, I have serious doubts that a stock 60's auto would live long at 700ftlbs in a 7000lb truck towing 10,000lb. IIRC, the TH400 was often part of the towing package on large sedans and station wagons (and pickups) and if you got 50,000mi out of one with a 300HP/400ftlb big block in front of it, you were very lucky if you actually towed with it. AAMCO made a good living off of them.


A race-built TH400 or Glide is pretty damn stout, but so is a built Allison, and the Allison does not need "hard" parts.

I killed the tranny in my cummins in 20,000 miles, 15,000 with 60HP box and 5000 with 120HP box. 47RE auto.

[


Like Mike, I have serious doubts that a stock 60's auto would live long at 700ftlbs in a 7000lb truck towing 10,000lb. IIRC, the TH400 was often part of the towing package on large sedans and station wagons (and pickups) and if you got 50,000mi out of one with a 300HP/400ftlb big block in front of it, you were very lucky if you actually towed with it. AAMCO made a good living off of them.


A race-built TH400 or Glide is pretty damn stout, but so is a built Allison, and the Allison does not need "hard" parts.

I drove more than a few motor homes in the mid 70's to mid 80's with big blocks and THM400. I have seen a few with blown engines for lack of oil but no blown trannies is they had proper cooling, THe 400 was a beast and and I have seen several with over 200k on them. I have one in a 79 J20 P/U that hauled 15,000 lb plus grain trailers for 6 years with it first owner out of the field in 4x4 and to the mill and since then it pushed snow, (some of it severe) for me until a few years ago and even towed horse trailers many times in the 80's to mid 90's. The tranny is still 100% stock and still works like new smooth as silk and it has had a very hard life. Only maintiance it has had is about 3 or 4 filter and fliud changes in it life. It does have a aux cooler which it has had since new. (Ammoco will not tell you to use one becuase they want repeat bussiness)

WWSD http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aktion/action-smiley-065.gif Hi, My name is Phil. I live in reality. Come visit some time.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

C'mon guy's be nice, the 400 was a strong tranny, so was the C6 and the 727. All of what we used to call the big block auto's were stout. I just don't think they would stand up to the low rpm grunt of these newer Diesels is all.


I had one of the first Ford diesels years ago. Don't remember for sure but the motor was painted grey was N/A and made 150 hp if I remember right. I think it had a C6 behind it didn't it? or at least a close relative. Anyway compared to the Dmax it made no power down low and made pitiful power even at 3000 RPM. But it wasn't possible to hurt that driveline. Used to comment that the best thing about that truck was that it didn't make enough power to hurt itself. Stayed in the family for around 400,000 miles and was finally given away, but still ran. Point being is that I think my Dmax would shred it in a hurry. The reason it lasted forever was that original Ford couldn't pull the hat off of your head.

I think GM made a great move putting the Allison in their trucks. In fact, it was a major reason why I went with the D/A because I felt GM had the best complete package. So far 14,000 miles and no regrets.

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aktion/action-smiley-065.gif Hi, My name is Phil. I live in reality. Come visit some time.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

LMAO!!!

Rat you know we're going to use that quote after the oxygen "experiments".... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Snoman, you might be exageratin on a j20 pulling 15,000lbs. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif


My buddy has 2 J20's. they have a hard time pulling a trailer with the other broken down j20 on it. Yours must have a 401 to be pulling that kind of weight.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/aktion/action-smiley-065.gif Hi, My name is Phil. I live in reality. Come visit some time.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Good god, that is some funny chit, right there. Man, I'm away for a day and see what I miss? LMFAO rat, you crack me up!


Thanks,
Dennis

A 401 couldn't pull a sick ant off a pee pot. 400 trans probably lugged it down. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif If you spent 10K on this stupid motor, you might come close to a ZZ4 crate motor. Some people do not understand the difference between 520 tq or maybe much more NOW as compared to 3800 rpm. I have built all these so called big block transmissions for racing, motor homes, to trucks and off road racers. They were the best in their time ( they were all we had). The Allison pinion gears in the planetary are almost as big as the sun gear in a 400.


mike

My stock 47RE (727) lived about 2 mins behind my old 96 Dodge 12V at 534 fpt at the rear wheels. It lived for 2 months after being beefed up by BD and being served 630 fpt at the rear wheels. I got bored real fast and moved on. Somtimes progress and technology is a good thing. Torque is the killer here. My ATS Allison has lived continuously for over a year at 1000+ fpt and no problems. Same with the Suncoast. Those vehicles of yester year didn't put out much torque compared to what our Diesel do. This is what exterminates the trans.

WWSD http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


That's FUNNY http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

The Allison is so good that the people at Ferd had to go out and make one of their own.

My stock 47RE (727) lived about 2 mins behind my old 96 Dodge 12V at 534 fpt at the rear wheels. It lived for 2 months after being beefed up by BD and being served 630 fpt at the rear wheels. I got bored real fast and moved on. Somtimes progress and technology is a good thing. Torque is the killer here. My ATS Allison has lived continuously for over a year at 1000+ fpt and no problems. Same with the Suncoast. Those vehicles of yester year didn't put out much torque compared to what our Diesel do. This is what exterminates the trans.

Heat is what exterminates trannies (from slippage or what have you) whether the are old Powerglides or new Ally's. If you do not keep it cool, I do not care how good you build it or what you use, it will not last. The greater the HP the greater the cooling required. Your 2 month life span tends to suggest a slow cook for running too hot due to improper cooling as high HP and presure levels on clutchs. Edited by: snoman

Well, we have seen what F#*d's track record has been like.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I knew it all along Mike! You screwed mehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif I coulda just put a cooler the size of a coffee table in the bed of my truck and i wouldnt have needed a different converter clutches or shift kit. I was scammed.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Your on my sh*t list now buddyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


bwaaahaaahahahttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I knew it all along Mike! You screwed mehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif I coulda just put a cooler the size of a coffee table in the bed of my truck and i wouldnt have needed a different converter clutches or shift kit. I was scammed.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Your on my sh*t list now buddyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


bwaaahaaahahahttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Always takes things out of context...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

You made some vague statment and seem to alude to the fact that proper cooling woulda saved his trans. I wouldnt mind actually disscussing things but any time someone asks questions in a tactfull manner you come back with an irrelivent post that does nothing to actualy answer the question.


Ok, I'll try to be nice. Yes, I agree that heat is the #1 killer of trans especially if things are kept stock. When you start working a trans the converter does a good job of getting the fluid way to hot, this cause the fluid to break down and do a crappy job and extreamly hot fluid also dosnt seems to act more slippery or maybe it dosnt do a good job off cooling the frictions and then they start to slip and it starts going down hill fast. But if you are slipping something other than the fluid coupling of the converter in the trans and thats causing the heat(it will cause alot and this turns things into a vicious circil) then you are already SOL IMO and it dosnt matter if you squirt 50* fluid on it.


Edit: Whats your opinion on that?Edited by: ratlover

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I had a trans gage on it and I never saw it get above 190 degs. That was actually the second one as well.

snowheeze ask yourself http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif one question.


What does MikeL do for a living?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Ya think he might know what he's talking about?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Blake http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Guess that was two questions lmaoEdited by: NWDmax

Ummmm. Is this the hate on snoman forum???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


you guys crack me up

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifPhilip you kill me!!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif