Anyone running veggie disassemble their DB2 injection pump?

Just curious on observations, how great it looked, points of failure, or what you may have found that caused your pumps to fail.

The diesel shop where I get my pumps sells them exchange, and probably won't tell me the cause of my pump failures. Sometime this week I'm going to pull my IP off (it's only 6 months old) and see what veggie related issues may have caused it to fail.

What failures? Symptoms of yours?

If you're gonna do that thing, do some pics for show 'n tell, but you should first try a full tank of #2 with power service cetane additive and some ashless 2-stroke motor oil, 'bout 8oz of each per full tank, along with a new fuel filter.

Anyone running veggie disassemble their DB2 injection pump?

Just curious on observations, how great it looked, points of failure, or what you may have found that caused your pumps to fail.

The diesel shop where I get my pumps sells them exchange, and probably won't tell me the cause of my pump failures. Sometime this week I'm going to pull my IP off (it's only 6 months old) and see what veggie related issues may have caused it to fail.

Exchange pumps have mostly used parts in them, not new. When an engine gets rebuilt, all the wear surfaces get renewed. But, that is NOT the way a injection pump is "rebuilt." Personally, I don't believe the word "rebuilt" truly applies - they are "repaired" pumps. Some parts replaced, many are not - and they are tested and calibrated.
So . . . when you pull a pump apart - some minor wear can be pre-exisiting wear - how are you going to know the difference?
There's lots of documentation that points out the most common wear areas in Roosamaster/Stanadyne rotary-series pumps - be it a D, DB, or DB2, etc. There has also been a lot of scientifically controlled testing with various fuels and the wear-scars measured.
The most common major problem with the DB2 pumps and certain fuels - including "thin" diesel, waste-vegetable oil (not virgin veg. oil), etc. is wear in the head & rotor assembly. This is the part of the pump that distributes fuel to one cylinder at a time. It works on the same general principle as the distributor cap and rotor on a gas engine. It works with extremely close tolerances, and if it gets any wear - it starts causing problems - usually beginning with engines that will not start when hot - but will once cooled off.
This is why rotary pumps are the worst choice for running alternative fuels - but - in this country - we have very few automotive diesels that do NOT use them. That is because rotarys are compact and cheap. A few older Mercedes, Cummins, Peugot and Isuzu have the much-better in-line pumps.
With a 6.2 however - good used pumps are available all over the place - cheap. So, it's not too hard or expensive to have many spares at a low cost. The DB2 pumps are also pretty easy to work on - however . . . once a head & rotor is ruined - they are not cost-effective to repair. It is the most expensive part of the pump. Many pump-shops will not give you an exchange credit if they know your old one is bad.

i kind of wonder also if you are sure the pump is shot since it is not very old. I assume you checked to make sure you have fuel coming to the IP and then bled some injector lines and cranked to see if fuel was coming out?

anyway, if the pump is broke then the next question is what is your filtration system like?
If you are getting the oil from a place that empties their fryers directly back into the cubes/jugs and gives them to you, you may only need a good 10 micron pre-filter. However if they dump it into a container out back then it most likely has at least some suspended moisture in it and you need to make provisions to remove this. Not hard to do but it can ruin a pump if you don't.

Are you running a two tank system or blending it in with the diesel?

I seriously doubt that 6 months on veggie would damage a pump unless something went wrong with the filtration system.

My pump, by the way, was having a very hard time running ULSD - the metering valve was actually getting stuck in idle due to the low lubricity and it took me months to figure this out as the pump is less than a year old. When i switched from ULSD to veggie it was like having a turbo.
I solved the problem (at least i think it is solved) by adding about 5-10% veggie to the diesel tank.

Paul

I would have to agree with Paul on this one. My M1009 hates ULSD, i run a min of B20 in my tank, and as I warms up I start to blend a little bit of Veg in with it, Runs so much better. I would go threw the basics of fuel delivery and make sure your filteration is good.

What failures? Symptoms of yours?Hard to start after vehicle has sat a day or more. I know there are many other problems that can cause this, but I have isolated to the IP. Great fuel flow to the IP inlet immediately when cranking. No air leaks or fuel drain back etc. This weekend was 300 miles from home. Wouldn’t start. Plenty of fuel getting to the pump, none out of the high pressure lines. Had to be pulled almost a mile in gear before it fired up. Ran flawlessly on the trip home. Now requires lots of cranking to start


Exchange pumps have mostly used parts in them, not new. When an engine gets rebuilt, all the wear surfaces get renewed. But, that is NOT the way a injection pump is "rebuilt." Personally, I don't believe the word "rebuilt" truly applies - they are "repaired" pumps. Some parts replaced, many are not - and they are tested and calibrated.
I can believe that, after brief stints working in transmission and carburetor shops

------------------------------------
I wouldn’t think the pump is shot at 6,000 miles. The past year or so I’ve tried to eliminate most factors that might cause any failure. I filter the WVO down to 2 micron before putting it in the truck. Run a two tank system. Got a temp gauge on the WVO to make sure temp is up before switching tanks. Don’t mix WVO in diesel tank, nor anything else with the WVO. Always use Service Power Diesel Kleen as an additive in the diesel tank. There is both a 10 micron and a 6 micron filter on the WVO system, Single 10 micron spin on filter for diesel system. So I’m sure it’s not particles. I have a fuel pressure gauge on the dash with its line tapped between the last filter and IP to monitor WVO pressure, to make sure there’s never a void in pressure to cause cavitation in IP.
The place where I get my WVO, I empty it directly out of the fryers myself while it’s still hot. It’s a barbecue restaurant, so the only thing that gets fried is potatoes and corn for corn fritters. So I don’t think there’s moisture from the foods. The only precaution I don’t take is boiling the WVO. So maybe after disassembling the pump it will show if there was moisture damage, cloggage or something else that failed.
I got a military pump manual and a cheap junkyard IP to practice on first.
I’ll post up on my findings.

Interesting - that pretty much rules out everything i know about from personal experience. If your oil comes right from the fryers there should be no moisture in it at all.
If you know there is plenty of fuel at the inlet of the pump but none coming out at the injectors then it really does sound like an IP problem, although i really wonder how you got it to drive home at all from 300 miles away if the pump was that bad.

the only other thing i can think of is check the inlet screen on the IP when you take it off - or before you pull the pump. I had a situation last summer where my veggie filter got a tear in it somehow and my van eventually stalled and would not start. I send the pump to have it repaired and the tech said the only thing wrong with it was the screen was totally clogged "with french fries". So i had him clean the whole thing out, do a very basic "rebuilt" and send it back to me.
I still wonder what really happened, and i tend to think that the oil had actually polymerized on the intake screen and clogged it because i doubt that much debris would ever get into my veggie tank let alone make it through the huge filter i use on board (racor 1000).

At any rate, it would be really interesting to hear what you find out. Please fill us in!

Paul

I agree - you'll need to pull the intake manifold off to get to the IP inlet filter, but it would be an area to check before doing something drastic.

Yesterday decided to look at the injection pump. First I pulled the end cap and looked at the inlet filter screen. It looked perfectly clean, no debris or stickiness. Then I pulled the IP cover off. I observed Orangeish brown deposits on the throttle shaft, min-max governor and governor spring. See pics below. I noticed this gunk on only the steel parts and not on the aluminum housing. Not exactly sure what these deposits are. Maybe fatty WVO particles that bonded to the hot steel? Moisture? The gunk whipped off with a rag ok, but left stains that wouldn’t come off with solvents. Not any rust pits, but discoloration in the metal where the spots were.

Since it looked this nasty inside, it prompted to disassemble the IP. Not having any IP experience, I disassembled a junkyard IP first to see if I could do it. Then last night I went ahead and disassembled the IP. I didn’t observe any stickiness, corrosion or wear on any of the moving parts or areas that could be suspect like transfer pump, servo parts, cam & cam rollers, hydraulic head/rotor. There was a brown coloration and slight residue on parts though Rotor turns freely in hydraulic head. Nothing obvious to the naked eye of an inexperienced person that showed anything conclusive that could cause problems. That doesn’t mean there aren’t still problems existing that an experienced IP rebuilder could diagnose. There was a delivery valve in the rotor that wouldn’t come out, but it wouldn’t come out of the other pump I took apart either. Not sure if I should be concerned or not.

I guess I’ll put it all back together and see if it works. If it works, it looks like I’ll be disassembling and cleaning IP’s every six months. If it doesn’t, I’ll have to just keep getting new IP’s every 10,000 miles. If it was moisture, I guess I’ll have to start boiling the WVO before putting it in the vehicle. It’s not cost effective to run WVO if I have to keep purchasing IP’s, so hopefully this works. I’ve been running WVO over two years now and overcome most all the hurdles. Got a good (I think) WVO source. Now go over a 1,000 miles before having to change a WVO filter, etc. Just hope the Inj pump doesn’t kick my ass. Will give it one more go round before I throw the towel in on using WVO.

I considered installing the junkyard IP. I kind of messed up though and took the regulator at the inlet apart. That means it would need recalibrated.





http://home.earthlink.net/~joemama1/aaaip2.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~joemama1/aaaip4.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/~joemama1/aaaip5.jpg

. There was a delivery valve in the rotor that wouldn’t come out, but it wouldn’t come out of the other pump I took apart either. Not sure if I should be concerned or not.

I considered installing the junkyard IP. I kind of messed up though and took the regulator at the inlet apart. That means it would need recalibrated.






Kind of hard to tell from the photos, even though they are well taken. I used to work in a Stanadyne/Roosamaster pump shop, so I've got some experience. From what I can tell - without holding the parts in my hands - it looks like a mess. I've pulled pumps apart with well over 200,000 miles - or 5000 engine hours that did not look anything like that. From here - it's looks like acid damage and WVO can have many types of acid resident. But, it the stuff cleans off and the metal is perfect underneath - than perhaps not?

The delivery-valve not falling out on its own is common. If you rap it and use inertia it ought to come out. For tough ones, I use a delivery-valve extractor - a very simple little "pin-vise" is about all it is.

In regard to the fuel-pressure regulator - you can re-adjust it if you've had it apart. There is an intial adjustment that you go by with exposed thread-count. Then, after the pump is installed and running - you put a pressure-gauge into the back of the pump and set/adjust the pressure to certain RPMs. That pressure is what makes the timing-advance work correctly.

The photo of the insides of the head & rotor do not look good - since it should appear to be perfect. It's really should show close to zero-wear to be right. But again - I cannot tell if that is metal-wear - or - residue.

Good pics - show'n tell rules ! !

Betcha that's salt and phosphates - try a WVO forum, see if they have more information.

I agree with jdemaris, having disassembled hi-mileage Diesel-only DB2's - if that's what's happening to all your IP's, WVO doesn't seem practical.

FLchevy,

have you tried doing a crackle test to see if the wvo has moisture? you can either use a water heater element or i think even a frying pan, put a small sample in there and carefully heat it up to see if it crackles - if it dose then there is moisture, which could have played a part in the problem with your pump. From what i have read, polymerization occurs more rapidly if there is moisture present - but there is still a lot of research being done on that topic and it is not all conclusive yet.

there are at least a few long-time wvo users who do not think that free fatty acids are a problem in wvo - supposedly they just burn along with the oil so it is not certain that acids caused this.

Are the metal surfaces pitted at all?

Also, are you familiar with the Frybrid or the Info pop svo forums? I'll bet if you post these pictures there you will get a lot of informative replies. I actually posted a link to this thread on the frybrid.com forum, hoping to get some replies because i know there are at least a few people there who know what this stuff on the metal parts is.

The only other thing i can say is that i have a steel drum in my van that is coolant-heated and i use it to collect unfiltered wvo. So there is always at least some moisture in there - and when i look inside with a flashlight sometimes i see orange looking stuff on the inside surface of the steel drum that looks kind of like the pics you showed.
But i think you need to take a sample from your tank and crackle test it, that would really help rule out some possibilities.

Paul

i posted a link to this thread at the frybrid forum and there are already some good replies from some people that have been running wvo for a long time. Here is what they are saying about this pictures:

http://frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7469

i posted a link to this thread at the frybrid forum and there are already some good replies from some people that have been running wvo for a long time. Here is what they are saying about this pictures:

http://frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7469

I've been using different types of waste oil for 30 years, including deep-fry oil and waste motor oil. But, much - in the past - was in farm tractors that often have much more durable fuel-injection systems than the D-series rotary pump from Stanadyne. I've always run a blend though, not straight WVO. And with waste motor-oil - I've run up to a 25% mix in hot weather with no problems - but I wouldn't do it in the winter. I am not using WVO at present simply because it's not cost-effective where I live. I'd have to drive a 50 mile round-trip to get it, and many places are now charging for it - due to some competition. I'm not willing to pay for it.
With waste-vegetable oil -there are a lot of variables - it is not a consistent product throughout the country. I've been wondering what the new oil is like since the older Trans-fat oil is getting banned in many places.
My point is . . . with the Internet and web-forums - there is a lot of information posted and shared - some very good and some not good at all. It is sometimes hard to sort through it unless someone backs up what they say with verifiable data. And, many WVO users don't know how to work on their own pumps and subsequently rely on pump-shops to tell them what is going on. This can lead to more mis-information.

Some facts are absolute.
WVO can have many acids in it. It depends, in part, what the virgin oil is that is used as the base, and also the environment where it is used. The waste oil can be tested for acid and it can be removed/neutralized. I have seen a few DB and DB2 pumps eaten up on the ferrous metal parts from acid - SVO and diesel - but it looked different then the photos posted here - and I suspect what I've seen was caused by a water-reaction in the diesel fuel. But I don't know for sure. Although I worked in a pump shop, and have seen many bad pumps, I rarely ever found out exactly what the causes are. Especially if a customer wants warrantly - he's not going to tell you he dumped bad fuel into his tank, or sprayed cold water from a pressure-washer onto a hot pump and siezed it.
Stanadyne rotary pumps are the most sensitive of any mechanically fuel-injection pump built - in regard to intolerance to low-lube fuels. That can be documented with hundreds of pages of scientific test data from many reputable sources including the U.S. Army. They have had a miserable time with the DB2 pumps on Humvees and are looking for a new alternative. But, much of that is due to vehicle overload (due to added armour), thin JP8 fuel, and high heat overseas.
Personally - I think a person is wasting their time and money using a lot of WVO unless they do their own diagnosis and repair work. If you have to pay $80 per hour for someone to work on your vehicle - who may - or may NOT know what they are doing - I don't think it can be cost-effective.
And, if this countrys starts spending more tax-money on bio-fuel production - the virgin type - then we are all REALLY getting scammed - because it is nowhere close to being efficient or offering any real resource-savings. At present - with current farming and refining techniques - it takes more petroleum to make a gallon of bio-fuel, than just making conventional diesel instead. Maybe that will change at some point, but it hasn't happened yet. Willy Nelson should stick to his singing and stop scamming people with his "Willy Bio-fuel."

The nice thing about WVO is . . . it's already there. Why throw it out when you can use it for something.

Just my humble opinion.

Are the metal surfaces pitted at all?

Also, are you familiar with the Frybrid or the Info pop svo forums?Greasfire, Thanks for the link to Frybrid site and the post there. I've been to the Info pop site, but unaware of the Frybrid site. It will be a great new source of info for me.

The metal surfaces aren't pitted, but they may have pitted if the IP had been in the vehicle longer. If the moisture was there for it to pit, maybe it didn't have time enough to pit since I just got it from the rebuilder shop in October.

I will try the flash test and see what happens.

Thanks for the replies!

Flchevy, while you are at the frybrid forum check out the sticky on Polymerization - someone did a huge amount of research on it and the info was all posted there along with a lively discussion.

At any rate, it seems pretty clear that a combination of water and/or polymerization caused that orange stuff in the pump (and water greatly speeds up the polymerization process).

I bought the plans from Dana Linscott a few years ago to build a very effective dewatering set up and i would highly recommend it. You could probably use it in conjuction with your present setup in fact - it would just be an addition to it.

Paul

i would pull the injectors too and tear them apart as well as the lines possibly flush them strigently or replace

if the inside of your ip looks like that you can bet your injectors do as well matter of fact i can almost imagine that the lil bit of trash is not allowing the pins to seat in the injectors possibly allowing your injectors too drizzle or leak by

just my 2 cents

since we have a picture of the inside of the pump here, can anyone explain what those parts that you can see under the top cover? Is one of them the metering valve, and, if so, which one is it?
thanks,
paul

since we have a picture of the inside of the pump here, can anyone explain what those parts that you can see under the top cover? Is one of them the metering valve, and, if so, which one is it?
thanks,
paul


http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/metering_valve.jpg (http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/metering_valve.jpg)
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http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/metering_valve_diagram.jpg (http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/metering_valve_diagram.jpg)
(Image has been resized. Click it for full size.)

i posted a link to this thread at the frybrid forum and there are already some good replies from some people that have been running wvo for a long time. Here is what they are saying about this pictures:

http://frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7469

looks like you started a "sword fight" over there with this :D

my first thought was rust...

as a retired chef i can tell you, for a fact, your oil has water in it when you get it from the fryer. just cause you cant see it don't mean it aint there! every time something is put in the hot oil, the water boils out of it. this is where you get the bubbles from when frying stuff...steam.

try a crackle test. heat some of the oil in anything that will hold it to about 225*-300*f. i promise it will start popping...

Thought I would post a pic showing the difference in a rotor that was in a pump with just diesel ran through it (left), and my pump that has had veggie ran through it for 6 months. The picture doesn't show that great, but there is a more pronounced difference looking at them by eye in person.
The one on the rights finish is duller and not as polished. Not sure if this is normal or not, being they are the first pumps I've looked at. But instict tells me it's not, and to use the better head and rotor.
I didn't look at the inside of my pump before running veggie, so I can't say 100% for sure the dullness or wear is a result of running WVO with contaminates and or moisture, but my insticts tell me so.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Ejoemama1/lcveg5.jpg

ive been running wvo for years now and have never pulled a pump apart that looks like that matter of fact it looks just like the one on the left there after 110k miles on it 99.5 perceent of the time run on wvo

but chances are the one on the right had some water in it at times thats why she looks as bad as she does i always run my wvo through a process before i use it too boil off the water it has to be done i have 25 55 gallon drums 48 are full as of now but i always date them and alow the sediments to settle out before i pull the fuel out i always leave the last 5 gallons in there and save that for a massive batch

to drop the boiling point of the water i put a slight vacumn on the oil in the container as well helps out a ton 6 maybe 7 inches dropps the boiling point down a lot

but yea rambling sorry just have a good process and get good oil and you wont have any problems thats all

I didn't look at the inside of my pump before running veggie, so I can't say 100% for sure the dullness or wear is a result of running WVO with contaminates and or moisture, but my insticts tell me so.



Most "rebuilt" pumps have used head & rotors - so who knows? But - with the worst looking one - if the fuel-plunger-bores, delivery-valve bore, and metering-valve bore are equally worn as the rotor surface - than it's likely the pump is junk and won't start when hot.

Ok, I finally checked my WVO supply for moisture. Pulled samples from bottom, middle and top of each of my 150 gal storage tanks. Did the pan test, Not a sizzle or splatter at all. Even heated the pan as hot as the stove would go. Still no splatter. Just to make sure I was doing test correctly, went to two other restaurants, pulled samples and tested. Yes i did get splatter from those. I could have put a batch in with moisture the couple times when away from home traveling, but for the most part the WVO has been moisture free.
Moisture could have been the death of my previous pumps because I never tested, but what I've been using the past year is moisture free.
Like Jdemaris says rebuilt pumps use used parts. No way they could sell a rebuilt pump for $350 that has a new head and rotor. The rotor & head on the pump I purchased could have looked like that from the start.

Oh well, enough rambling. I put the nicer pump I got from junkyard in. Works fine. Going to start heating and dewatering WVO anyway. I'll pull the pump cover off every couple months to have a look inside, and if pump fails again, will do a disassembly and inspection.

Many thanks for all input and replies.

Hi you ask for it . sorry for my bat writing but


i install a rebuild ip 1 1/2 month ago from stanadyne shop


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/pi102.jpg (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/pi102.jpg)
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it go fine for around 2,400 miles(last sunday night on freeway) then

it stop pumping . i pull it out from the engine


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/10-04-07_2155.jpg (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/10-04-07_2155.jpg)
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http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/10-04-07_2209.jpg (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/10-04-07_2209.jpg)
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the bottom one is old but ok the top one is the rebuild one


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/10-04-07_2213.jpg (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/10-04-07_2213.jpg)
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we pull the rotor out with 10 ton pressure


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/pi008.jpg (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/pi008.jpg)
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http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/pi113-2.jpg (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/diesel/pi113-2.jpg)
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and the red arrow show the exact area that the metal weld together (rotor and head) after looking in the big book we findout that it was cause by contamination into the fuel . after a long talk on my WVO systeme (stanadyne know more than me on the subject) the insist the i alway add 15% of diesel in the WVO because diesel have additive in it to prevent those kind of failiure and i use to heat my WVO to 180F with a combination of HIH and electric heater with a thermostatic controle now i will heat it to 130-140Fmax . the insist the the heat into the pump is too high and all the test they to on the subject occure at 113-115F not more

i hop it can help .

Ed

tigman,
are you sure that a shot of free water did not get through that pump? do you make provisions to dewater your oil?
From what i have heard, when the head and rotor get welded together like that it is from water. Do you find much water in the sediment bowl of your veggie filter?
Paul

Flchevy,
well that seems to complicate things if you are sure there was no moisture in the wvo since everyone seemed to think that was what caused it. However, you said you were away from home a few times filtering oil from other sources - do you have an idea of just how much of the other oil you ran through it? How long ago was it that you did that? My guess is that the stuff you filtered on the road had water in it since almost all oil, even right from the fryer, has some water. The main place you go to is evidently an exception and a very rare one. I would say keep using oil from that place! Just run it through your new dewatering station just to be safe.
Paul

hey there tiggy i have never have had a problem with the wvo after i run it through my process and i always keep it around 180 or there abouts before the pump with a hose in hose as well something else has caused the problem with the ip ie a pump that the tolerences were impropper in it to begin with aka to tight i have also seen that if a shaft installed ever so slightly wrong and allowed to scuff the side will cause a few small burs and or metal shavings that will cause that problem as well that really sux man but i would take the pump back and just call it a reman defect cause that is definantly not from the wvo unless you arent filtering and processing properly i only run diesel on startup and shutdown but i never mix either and have logged thousands of miles on a new pump with out 1 issue at all but i also have a rather stringent process i go through as well

tigman,
are you sure that a shot of free water did not get through that pump? do you make provisions to dewater your oil?
From what i have heard, when the head and rotor get welded together like that it is from water. Do you find much water in the sediment bowl of your veggie filter?
Paul

I've seem many Stanadyne/Roosamaster head & rotors sieze. The diesel-lubricated head & rotor is the weakest part of the pump. That is the reason why distributor pumps are absolutely the worst choice for alternative fuels - they are the least tolerant. They will sieze with quick temperature changes - like being hit with cold water when running hot, water in fuel, too thick fuel, low-lube fuel, etc.
In the US though, anybody who wants to run a diesel on alternative fuels doesn't have much of a choice of pumps. The in-line pump has a separate pump for each cylinder, no head & rotor section since individual distribution is not necessary, and usually is lubricated by motor oil.
A few older Mecedes, Isuzus, Peugots, Cummins have the in-lines. In Europe -they are much more common.

FL,
I have been looking and looking at your IP and have read you page about your conversion - you should have just bought a system for all the work you put into it ;-). It really looks to me as though the pump would have failed regardless of the use of VO, if you look at the images you posted of the shafts
http://home.earthlink.net/~joemama1/lcveg5.jpg

You can see galding on the bearing surfaces (shiny part of the shaft next to the holes), this is exactly what I see when proper assembly techniques are not use in motors. In addition, from reading your page I do not see where you did any dewatering of the fuel at all, I see the twin hydraulic filters and the pump but no provision for the removal of water. This step is impostant for two reasons, 1 it removes droplets of water which can lead to cavitation under high pressures wearing the surfaces, and 2 when you remove the water you also remove most of the water soluable impurities such as salts and acids.

Does it appear to you that the discoloration is rust or a coating?

do you have an idea of just how much of the other oil you ran through it? How long ago was it that you did that? I got to thinking, I hadn't been on any road trips since I put the "rebuilt" pump in in October. I won't totally rule out the possibility of water, as anything can happen. I would think the WVO gets dewatered staying in the hot fryer. No food cooked in it from 8PM Fri night when the restaurant closes until I empty hot fryers every Sat morning. But I will take everyones advice. Not taking any chances. From here on out I'm dewatering again at home regardless.

Does it appear to you that the discoloration is rust or a coating?On the rotor it is discoloration, not rust. I guess no residue settled on it like other components because it is spins. Even after soaking overnight in carb cleaner it still stayed discolored.

tigman,
are you sure that a shot of free water did not get through that pump? do you make provisions to dewater your oil?
From what i have heard, when the head and rotor get welded together like that it is from water. Do you find much water in the sediment bowl of your veggie filter?
Paul

Normaly yes and i let it sit for 4 weeks. but now i almost at the end of my reserve and i may have something in it. I plan to open my filters next week to see if it is water . i plan to test for water in my tank and the reserve to.

goodtunes1978hey there tiggy i have never have had a problem with the wvo after i run it through my process and i always keep it around 180

Hi Me too i have 30.000mile on my actual setup and over 50.000 total wvo if i include my experimenting periodes:D


FLChevyOn the rotor it is discoloration, not rust. I guess no residue settled on it like other components because it is spins. Even after soaking overnight in carb cleaner it still stayed discolored.


Hi have you try degreaser or reddevil ? .

Ed

On the rotor it is discoloration, not rust. I guess no residue settled on it like other components because it is spins. Even after soaking overnight in carb cleaner it still stayed discolored.

Interesting, do you think you see any rust or is it a brownish "Varnish"?
Have you found this "residue" on any of the aluminum components?

cgoodwin - can you go head-to-head with jdemaris here on the topic of whether wvo is actually bad for the IP? He has a lot of experience rebuilding stanadyne IP's and, although he also runs wvo, he is convinced that it will shorten the lifespan of the pump regardless of how well it was filtered/dewatered because if the acids in it.
I think that the ULSD will shorten the life of the pump and the veggie will prolong it but i really can't prove or disprove that just yet. From what i have read, the acids are not harmful and most of them are removed by dewatering but i don't have the tech expertise to get much more into it the way you and jdemaris do. It would be an interesting debate.

Paul

cgoodwin - can you go head-to-head with jdemaris here on the topic of whether wvo is actually bad for the IP? He has a lot of experience rebuilding stanadyne IP's and, although he also runs wvo, he is convinced that it will shorten the lifespan of the pump regardless of how well it was filtered/dewatered because if the acids in it.


I don't think I've ever claimed that using WVO will always shorten the lifespan of a rotary pump. At least I hope my comments have not come across that way.

The points I've tried to make are as thus:

#1 The Stanadyne rotary injection pump is the most intolerant to low-lube fuels - when compared to other types of pumps. Also intolerant to rapid fluctuations in temperature, small amounts of water, dirt, etc. That is easily documented - by test data and also . . . common sense.
One the other hand, I can mention several in-line injection pumps that got one or two plungers stuck from water in the fuel. I'd rap them with a hammer and punch, free them, get some clean fuel back in, an they'd often run fine again. You will never get away with that with a Roosamaster/Stanadyne pump. That's why it uses a "shear-shaft" that acts as a sort of fuse if the pump siezes.

#2 When it comes to using WVO as a motor-fuel - the are many variables. So many it gets a little silly trying to make blanket statements about it. The raw WVO differs for one. Then, the methods of treating it also differ.
WVO can be filtered, dewatered, be acid neutraulized, preheated, etc.

#3 Cost effectiveness? That depends on how far you must drive to get the raw WVO, how much you have to filter it, how much you spend on treating it, etc. Also - greatly depends on - if you do your own repair work, or not.

#3 Lubricosity in general? Lots of scientific test data. Much is moot is we are talking about WVO from someone's deepfryer with no chemical analysis. But many virgin vegetable oils exceed #2 diesel in lubricosity. When a certified bio-fuel is blended - e.g. B50, B90, B100, etc. it is put together with specific types of oil with known attributes.

I don't regard any of what I've said logically arguable. Emotionally, maybe. But, I'm only using known facts here. Head & rotor siezing has always been an issue with the rotary pumps. Vernon Roosa invented the first rotary that was marketed sucessfully. It was called the Roosamaster Model A, and the company later called itself Stanadyne. In his first demonstration - in the late 40s - it siezed and he had to end his demonstration early. So, even the inventor had problems with it. The big advantage to the rotary is it's small size and low cost. NOT durability.
That being said - I know of several that have over 30,000 engine hours on them. What's that in miles - maybe over 1,000,000 miles?

Hi have you try degreaser or reddevil ? Nope, Just dunked it in carb cleaner.

Interesting, do you think you see any rust or is it a brownish "Varnish"?
Have you found this "residue" on any of the aluminum components?No residue or discoloration of the slightest on aluminum components.
On the rotor it's not rust, but brownish varnish. The more pourus stamped steel components like the throttle shaft, min-max governor and governor spring in the top of the pump has spots with little clumps of gunk that wiped off. (see pics on 1st page of post). Once wiped off, there was discoloration spots in the steel. I couldn't tell by site if they were etchings in the metal that was the start of rust, but surfaces felt smooth.

It is interesting seeing the different experiences people have. I guess we will all have different ones due to the many variables. i'll start frequenting the WVO & biodiesel message boards more frequently.

Update , I finally checked my WVO for moisture.
Pulled samples from the bottom of my 2X50 gal storage tanks. Did the pan test, Not a splatter at all.
Do the same for the WVO tank in my truck :eek: water in it and even dropplet in the bottom:mad:

i will investigate what happen now

Now i know why the rotor seize but Stanadyne cover for me this time .
Life is good sometime:D

Ed

of my 2X50 gal storage tanks. Did the pan test, Not a splatter at all.
Do the same for the WVO tank in my truck :eek: water in it and even dropplet in the bottom:mad:

Ed

Any fuel tank can get water in it - but it's not supposed to be able to make its way into the fuel-injection pump. Thus the water-drain in some tanks, water-in-fuel sensor, water trap, etc.

Anyone running veggie disassemble their DB2 injection pump?

Just curious on observations, how great it looked, points of failure, or what you may have found that caused your pumps to fail.

The diesel shop where I get my pumps sells them exchange, and probably won't tell me the cause of my pump failures. Sometime this week I'm going to pull my IP off (it's only 6 months old) and see what veggie related issues may have caused it to fail.

Did you find out what the outcome was of your IP- what the actual problem was or not? WOuld be interesting to know.

by the way, i have never actually done the hot pan test, but it was pointed out on the frybrid forum that some people here may be doing it wrong. If you put oil in a pan and it splatters, that means you have way too much water in it; but the test was designed to find small amounts of suspended water which reveal themselves in the form of small bubbles on the pan.
-Paul

Any fuel tank can get water in it - but it's not supposed to be able to make its way into the fuel-injection pump. Thus the water-drain in some tanks, water-in-fuel sensor, water trap, etc.

My fuel tankis a complete stainless steel one and it is heated with the prestone under the tank and i have a water trap in it .

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/tigman_photos/Vegetal/reservoir026.jpg
maybe i will instal a air dryer for the tank air breather (silica gel) it is verry humide over her at this time of the year

Ed

My fuel tankis a complete stainless steel one and it is heated with the prestone under the tank and i have a water trap in it .



(Image has been resized. Click it for full size.)

maybe i will instal a air dryer for the tank air breather (silica gel) it is verry humide over her at this time of the year

Ed

No polymerization with stainless steel?

No polymerization with stainless steel?

No after 1 1/2 year with that tank .

IIRC the polimerisation occure with mild steel

Ed

Did you find out what the outcome was of your IP- what the actual problem was or not? WOuld be interesting to know.

Nothing conclusive. The rotor surface was duller and I'm guessing worn, but I didn't measure it and don't know positively for sure. But it's my best guess.
I know the new pump has fixed the problem. Starts up every morning now.

the test was designed to find small amounts of suspended water which reveal themselves in the form of small bubbles on the pan.

Greasefire, You're right, I wasn't analyzing the fry pan test correctly. I did it again and noticed some bubbled at the bottom of the pan which indicates a small amount of suspended water.