I have a scanner I just got that you can use while you drive and it has an air intake temp reading. I can get it to 250 degree's in a few seconds when I pin it. The intercooler is looking better and better, save the cash.

I have a thermastatic relay for a water to air system, comes on at 180 deg F and off at 150 deg F. I was starting to think 180 deg was too high. but if your making 250! in a few seconds, I would think it would trip the switch.

Watching IAT's with a Tech II is what put me over the edge to buy an intercooler 2 years ago. I saw them skyrocket in a hurry while mashing the throttle with no trailer.


Everything you read about an intercooler keeping them to +30* ambient is very true. I couldn't be happier with it.


Or Maybe I Could...


I've now added WMI on top of the Intercooler. While doing some testing last week I was able to keep IAT's AT AMBIENT temperature. This testing was done with no trailer. Long Heavy Hauling has not been put to the test yet.


I Hesitate to even say that I saw Below Ambient Temperatures. I'm not sure if that is possible. When I left work the other day with Tech II hooked up, beginning IAT was 89*. On the highway going home, with water on, I did witness 85*.


There's nothing like Cool, Dense, Intake Air...

Billman, What intercooler are you running? What water injection kit? I went as far as to install all of my Heath Diesel water injection but have not installed a tank as I need the bed space. After watching the intake temps I think the bed space is going to get smaller by 10 gallons. I still want a intercooler and will buy one.

I bought the JK/Spearco. Bigger is better. It's Neat & Clean. Worth the extra money.


Turbo Tech's Intercooler has pipes running up through the fenderwell. Ugly AND Small. It would kill me to see that pipe behind the R/F wheel.


I made a Complete Custom WMI system. Very High Pressure, Very Small Nozzle. Custom Hidden Tank. So far, results are amazing.


I've read about your plow mount problems and the fact that you enter Truck Pulls from time to time. You won't regret either way you go. Guaranteed to pull that sled another 75ft.

billman-


post some pics or just a rundown on your wmi. parts and where to get 'em. seems simple from the kits i've looked at but not sure of nozzels, flow rates. "i'm not broke but brother i'm badly bent" and a cheap ass!

I have had the JK large IC for about 4 years now and I never see any more than 120* inlet. Best performance mod money I spent on the old girl. Water injection will never do as well as a big IC.





Greg

Billy,


Don't know if there's any way of doing this on your current set-up, but did you ever isolate the operation of the intercooler from that of the WMI? Which is to say, did you ever measure IAT with the WMI alone?

for Truck Pulls, wmi will give better benefits then an intercooler.

Lupey


More pressure is better. That's what I think. I don't need a big nozzle with Intercooler. IC does most of the work. Kinda like a 'Hard Part' that needs no maintenance or refills. Systems can be built very cheap. 'Found' most of my stuff at work.


Sorry, don't have access to camera. Would love to show it off. I'm kinda proud of it actually. Very neat, clean, & HIDDEN.


SD


No. Never isloated WMI without IC. Can be done. Don't really have time right now. I think the 2 systems working together is amazing.

Billman,


That combo has potential. Get a camera so we can admire your work.

yes i would love to see how you did this

Lupey


Systems can be built very cheap. 'Found' most of my stuff at work.





what kind of work do you do then ?

Professional Mechanic. Nothing Special.

In the For-What-It's-Worth department, here's my set-up. Flow control valve/check valve is on firewall. Water nozzle is located in turbo housing cover and the Hobbs switches are located in neck of intake manifold. For fear of severe backlash, I won't show how I mounted my water tank. People either love it or they hate it. I've experienced too much hate today.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/1B3_engine2.jpg

I have a Heath WMI kit on mine and would not recomend it to be used with an intercooler.


The way it this kit is designed, it wouldn't work very good (if at all)

AW Come on spindrift


No hate here all love


Can You Feel the Love.

whatnot,


Can you elaborate? What challenges do you see?

Yeah Spindrift: http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Heart.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif


We all love yeah! or at least tell us where you mounted that water tank. I been think of doing the WI but I don't want to mount the tank in the bed of the truck.

whatnot,


Can you elaborate? What challenges do you see?





Heath designed it to turn the water to steam as it hits the hot air coming out of the turbo. With an intercooler, it would condense in the intercooler.


If you want both, you would need a high pressure, fine mist after the intercooler to work best.

I would think water condensing in the charge air core would add to it's cooling potential.

I suppose if anyone knows, it's Billman.


So Billy...where is your water being introduced to the air column?


And for those of you who just can't give up an opportunity to bust my chops...even after a long day, here you go:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/water_injection_tank2.jpg

And for good measure, how about this? What I like most about this location for the fill 'em up are the faces of the truckers when they see me leaning into the back seat with a water hose in my hand. http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gif


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Tank_fill.JPG

Why is your converter so far back?

whatnot,


Can you elaborate? What challenges do you see?





Heath designed it to turn the water to steam as it hits the hot air coming out of the turbo. With an intercooler, it would condense in the intercooler.


If you want both, you would need a high pressure, fine mist after the intercooler to work best.





so hows that different form spindrift's injection point ?


Nice install job spindrift. Why do some people not like it?

Spindrift's appears to be a Heath kit.


It works perfectly fine without an intercooler.


I don't think liquid in the intake system is a good thing. It should be mist or steam so it stays in the air.

I thought Heath's kit was designed to spray water before the compressor. That way the blades would help mistify the water. That would also explain why he claims you don't need high pressure. I thought I read somewhere that the pump he offers puts out 30 psi.


I'm using over 200 psi...


If I didn't have an Intercooler, I would inject water in the exact same spot as Spindrift. As far away as you can from the manifold. Give the water enough time to remove the heat from the intake charge. Also as far enough before the IAT for the same reason. But I do have an IC. Once the upper manifold is modified for the new pipes and the compressor housing is rotated downward, options are limited. I could have put the nozzle in the IC pipe, but I wanted it to be 'Hidden'. I inject my water into the upper manifold housing just as it gets covered by the 'Turbo Power' cover. The cover also hides some of my switches and wiring and the actual water lines. If I lifted the hood, you would never know it was there. Pump and tank are also hidden.


By no means do I claim it to be the best spot. I am a student like everyone else learning everyday on this truck. It has become a hobby of mine. Just ask my wife.


WMI is very new to me.


My system will be quite different from others that do not have an IC.





Oh Yea, Spindrift. Nice tank location...

No, the Heath kit sprays the water in after the compressor.

Billman,


What kind of pump are you using to get pressures like that?


Tom C.

VERY smart tank location for a Suburban, Spindrift. Where did you source that poly tank, offhand?

Tom C.


Flo-Jet

where can you source nozzels and what gph rates are ideal?

Joey D...Moving forward from my cat towards the engine are three cross members. One is for structural support alone and one supports the tranny. The third is used for the torsion bars. There's no other place that cat can hide.


bowtie...I receive the greatest amount of criticism over the degree of, or lack of, accessibility this location provides. You have to rearrange all of the junk, and the kids to get at the fill 'em up. However, my response to that criticism is HOOEY! Why don't you try spending hour upon hour with five kids and two dogs in a vehicle. You can't not (is that a double negative?) look forward to those stops to fill the water tank, even if you don't need the fuel. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif I top off the fuel tank anyway.


This is where I'll throw a bone to those, and you know who you are http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif, that can't help but throw stones at the use of WMI in a towing application. I have my control valve set at a flow rate of 35 oz./min. and that will eat up my 20 gallon water tank more quickly than I would like when I'm travelling through the "mountains" (the name those of us who live on the right coast give to our big hills). I'm working on a system that will supplement my existing tank with water from the trailer.


For those of you who have followed the great intercooler vs. WMI debate on this and other forums, I hope I have always presented a balanced analysis of these two methods of charge air cooling. In my experience, WMI provides the same degree of charge air cooling as an IC. Does it come at a "cost"? You bet your a&*s. Filling that tank and making sure that I'm running the proper methanol dilution rate is a real pain in the neck. I can't say it more plainly than that. I have a plan for my truck, and unfortunately, I have a budget. Do I want an IC...you bethcha', big time and the sooner the better. With that said, I think you would be hard pressed to better the cost/value ratio that a water injection system provides. Now...let's all say that together, "cost/value". Like I said before, I need to make somewhat frequent stops when we travel. If I didn't, my wife would have to admit me to the nearest psychiatric ward, and that would ruin our trip. Installing the IC won't change the need for the sanity stop one hoot. I don't want to sound like an arrogant snot, but I really don't care if it doesn't work for anyone else. In summary, water injection works for me, right now.


whatnot...You are correct, this is a Heath system. I can usually do what I'm told, but I lacked the technical expertise (which I've demonstrated in the pasthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif) to design my own system. I analyzed about 502 other systems that are on the market. The price is right.


Billy...As you said, Heath's pump is rated at 30 psi. Now the fun begins, or at least I may start a fight. <IMG onMouseOver="this.style.cursor='hand'" onMouseOut="this.style.cursor=''" alt='Cli

There's no other place that cat can hide.


! Why don't you try spending hour upon hour with five kids and two dogs in a vehicle. You can't not (is that a double negative?) look forward to those stops to fill the water tank, even if you don't need the fuel. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif I top off the fuel tank anyway.


This is where I'll throw a bone to those, and you know who you are http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif, that can't help but throw stones at the use of WMI in a towing application.


In summary, water injection works for me, right now.


The price is right.





Hey Spindrift 5 kids is ALL you have, I understand I got 6 myself and pretty much fill up a suburban on our trips, Oh which we have one planned to Fl this Nov., As far as the cat, get emout of there, You will like it better too. And as far as what others say about your rig, to Hoot wiht them as long as it works for you. I think you have taken a very different approach to solve a problem most people would have just walked away from scratching what little hair they have left on their head. ROCK ON Edited by: bowtie

don't hate...innovate!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

No fight from me. Not with you anyway.


You had a problem. You fixed it. Good deal.


I'm sure Heath's system works. Super-Nice Guy with good products.


I did a lot of reading on the subject and came up with my own system. I didn't intend to use more than 100 psi. If I had to price my particular set-up, it would be in the $300-$400 range minus tank.


My set-up is different from someone who relys on WMI alone. Very High Pressure, Very Small Nozzle. I only use as much water as needed. But my testing has been very limited so far.


You could probably benefit from watching your IAT's with a scanner of some sort to turn down your flow rate to get more mileage from your tank.


5 Kids and 2 Dogs in a Suburban! You might only want to fill that tank Half-Way.

bowtie,


Joisy is highly regulated. Sometimes, o.k. all the time, I wonder about those clowns in Trenton. You will see in my signature that the exhaust system is "cat modified". That's code, just in case the g men are listening in, for the cat that lost its tongue.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I cut 4" holes in both sides of the cat, ran a straight pipe thru the cat and had a guy weld it up. Better? Oh yeah!


Now about those six kids... Did you get hit in the head too? Just kiddin'. I lovem all and that's even after having to learn to be a Dad five different ways. Got to admit though, did have to kick a couple of those buggers out of the truck once. Mild improvement after that.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

lupey,


For atomizing nozzles I originally looked at these three sources:


http://www.bete.com/index.htm


http://www.spray.com/index.asp


and of course:


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/


This site makes for some interesting reading as well:


http://www.waterinjection.info/


Don't know what Billy did, but I found that if you wanted to achieve atomization of the water particles at the entry point, you had to go with multiple nozzles in order to provide adequate flow rate...25 - 35 oz. per min. In turn, these nozzles required a pump with a higher pressure rating. Those darn conversions from cc's and ml's and oz's gave me a headache.


Billy,


Please don't misinterpret, and I'm not sure you did, but I'm just makin' sure. When I referenced starting a fight, in good nature of course, I was anticipating spirited discussion related to Heath's design and whether or not water particles are small enough to be completely vaporized by this design. I believe they certainly are in your design by virtue of your pump's pressure rating and the orifice size of your nozzle.


You make an excellent point about the scanner. Which brings up another point. What's the difference between a Tech II and those computer programs that I've only read about which give you the ability to plug in to the same port as the Tech II? Are they for OBD II vehicles only?


As far as filling the water tank half way, LOL! ...another good reason for me to make those stops.


Edited by: spindrift

The Tech II is Big Bucks. New ~ $5000.


The sampling rate is pretty quick. That would be needed for an accurate test. I don't think the plug-ins can perform as well. Might be wrong though.


Not too familiar with aftermarket stuff. We have all the factory 'Scanners' here. Tech II, Star Tester(Ford), and something for Chrysler.


I'm running a 2gph rated nozzle @ 100psi. But I'm puttin' 210-215psi through it. It's like a Very Dense 'Fog'.Edited by: Billman

For $350, The program and cable I have on my laptop give realtime readings on 40 or so sensors without the programmng ie tdc learn/offset functions the techII can do.

qm,


What is the name of the program and would you know if it's available for OBD II vehicles?

do you need such high flow rates to be effective? if i need that kind of capacity i will have to get very very creative to get probably mulitple tanks hidden in the blazer.

Spindrift,


I've been considering the GM OBDII personal enhanced parameter from EASE diagnostic. The kit is $375 total. My dad's truck is OBDII but it runs strong and I havn't had to have it yet.


I like the idea of a 200 psi mist better for the water useage point.

No. I've heard of flow rates as low as 21 oz./min. and the system was still effective. It is my understanding that for most towing applications you want to be around 30 oz./min. I've been playing with my flow rates and I've been as high as 35 oz./min. Billman is correct. I should monitor IAT with a scanner to see if the system can be equally effective at a lower flow rate.

Holy Sh!t. Those numbers are HUGE.


I would be afraid to run that much liquid through the motor.


If my calculations are correct:


21 oz/min = 9.8 gpm


30 oz/min = 14.0 gpm


35 oz/min = 16.4 gpm


I was Thinking about going up to 3 gpm.


I think you need to fill the whole trailer with water.


How low have you been with the flow rates?


What are you using to adjust them? EGT's?


What differences have you seen?


Are you still having problems with the ECM pulling back fuel?


And lastly, what boost levels are you running/where does the water come on at?

Billy,


According to my calculations, the flow rates that you have calculated should be expressed in gal./hr., not gal./min. Have I done something wrong?


21 oz. X 60 min. X 1 gal. = 9.84 gal.


min. hr. 128 oz. hr.


Some background info:


I installed the system early this Summer. I only use the system when I'm towing. My GVW is almost 18K. I installed the Max-E-Tork in the Spring. Prior to the installation of the new ECM, and on a good climb, my EGT's would keep climbing if I let them. Saw over 1,300*, approaching 1,400* one time when I was distracted by a fight in the back seat. Max-E-Tork solved those brushes with death, but I still had to watch my EGT's like a hawk to be sure I didn't go over 1,200*. Installed water injection early Summer and towing has been fun ever since. I can still hit 1,200* if I wanted to but those times are a rare occurence. I have reduced my EGT's by at least 150* easy. I know of one guy who runs a DOG and WMI reduced his EGT's by 200*, measured by a scanner.


As long as the water is vaporizing before it hits the cylinders, no problems as far as I can see. As long as the water is vaporized, the worse that can happen is that I put out the fire and stall the truck.


The ECM has not pulled back fuel. I've had the pedal right to the mat. The Hobbs switch is set to activate the pump at 10.5 psi. Anything less and I'm not sure I'd be vaporizing the water. I've had boost readings up to 15 psi but I haven't seen any benefit at that point. On a climb, I try not to go over 13 psi, regardless of whether I'm in OD or 3rd gear.


Edited by: spindrift

I stand corrected. It is GPH. Dunno what I was thinking.

I have a scanner I just got that you can use while you drive and it has an air intake temp reading. I can get it to 250 degree's in a few seconds when I pin it. The intercooler is looking better and better, save the cash.


250 degrees?? I know I'm a little late on this one, I just caught that, doesn't that seem a little extreme to anyone else here? I've driven several customers 6.5s and I've never seen IATs over ~160. Even if your running an aftermarket boost controller, and pulling a trailer through the Sahara. If mine ever said that, I'd be replacing the sensor.

160* can be reached in a matter of seconds with ~ 10 psi boost.


That's WITHOUT a trailer.

Yeah, I don't doubt 160-170 a bit, but 250? C'mon, thats pretty extreme.

IIRC, boost levels in the 15 - 20 psi range, as reported by other forum members, will produce IAT of 300*

No. I've heard of flow rates as low as 21 oz./min. and the system was still effective. It is my understanding that for most towing applications you want to be around 30 oz./min. I've been playing with my flow rates and I've been as high as 35 oz./min. Billman is correct. I should monitor IAT with a scanner to see if the system can be equally effective at a lower flow rate.


I really doubt that you are using that much water. When you set it to that rate, there is no boost pressure pushing back on it. I don't know if there is a way to measure the actual flow rate very easily.


I turned mine wide open last night and like the results. (I cranked in the turbomaster at the same time too)


Anyone want to trade a Isspro 15psi gauge for one that goes higher? The scanner will only go up to 15.8 psi so I don't know what pressure I am running.

Hi guys, how about this:
Why not run an intercooler to cool the air to say +30 of ambient. Then run the air through an AC evaporator and cool it to 10 degrees below ambient. Would that help power? I think it would and I have a very simple way to do this I think. The whole idea is to lower the IAT correct?

Basically air condition the air going into the intake.Edited by: winchster

And before anyone goes off the deep end telling me you would use more power than gained, I'm talking about using a window shaker (R22) running off an inverter so you don't use HP to turn the compressor over.

Why add an A/C when you already have one? You could accomplish the same feat with a secondary core on the trucks system.

Only if you were willing to run your ac in the truck all the time. But if you add a system that is dedicated to cooling the intake air, the system in the truck doesn't have to be on. If the one for the cab is on it creates load. I want to produce power without the load on the engine. AC the air you can lower it to well below ambient.

Running a seperate AC system with an inverter would take more power than running the vehicles AC all the time. You loose some power each time you convert it. First from the belt to the alternator, then a huge loss at the inverter then another loss at the AC electric motor.

I run my A/C nonstop anyway. In the winter you wouln't need it, but the intake will still run across a freon filled core, some heat will be exchanged.


On a really hard acceleration just turn it off for a second, the residual will be cooling for a few seconds as you come off the line.

Ok, so why can't you do it. Everybody wants to add water and such I was just thinking you could do it with freon. R22 will cool better than 134, and all you have to have is a small window shaker and a power inverter. Everything could be added in a 12x12 box between the turbo and intake.

I'm not saying you can't. The new more efficient models are a cut above. It would have to be reconfigured to fit though. There's only 6"-8" between the hood and motor.

You would mount the condesor out front, compressor in the engine compartment, and evaporator in the split between turbo and intake manifold. Plug it in an inverter and there you now have air conditioned intake air. The evap is only going to be about 2" thick, and probably 8"-12" square. It would need to be enclosed for this all to work, I'm not talking about putting the whole unit under the hood. I do ac for a living, so I'd just modify the pieces.

I really doubt that you are using that much water. When you set it to that rate, there is no boost pressure pushing back on it. I don't know if there is a way to measure the actual flow rate very easily.





whatnot,


Not quite sure I understand what you're saying here. I confirm flow rate by disconnecting water line to nozzle, jumper the pump and measure water flow over time using a graduated container. If the water pump is putting out at least 30 psi, and boost pressure is in the 10.5 - 13 psi range, pump pressure wins, no?

Yes, the pump pressure wins but with 30 psi from the pump pushing against 12 psi from the turbo, you are down to 18 psi from the pump. With the return line, I would bet that it is even lower.

if you get say 15mpg at 60mph thats 4 gal per hour of FUEL.


if you push 21oz per minute thats 9.8 gal per hour of WATER.


is this right? how could you run more than twice the water as fuel?


unless you are spraying the intercooler fins externally which is not what i am talking about.

Well, good thinkin' there Winchester, but there are few things that kinda are a hinderance to the a/c idea, but not impossible.


1. The power comes from somewhere, either from the compressor or the alternator. No free rides on robbing HP. You'll just be mortgaging your power over time, and not instantly. You will still be getting power, but just differently.


2. 10,000 btu window shaker, just for giggles will run about 10 amps on 120v. So, in round figures, without power factors, and stuff, you are looking at about 1200 watts. At 12 volts that's about 100 amps, close to the rating of your alternator.


3. The WMI injection is hard to beat for the capacity it offers. If you translate the cooling it provides by: amount of water injected X latent heat of vaporization = huge cooling capacity. If that WMI ran continuously for one hour at full capacity, it would equal over 10 TONS, (not 10,000 btu). [120,000 BTU's of cooling.] Translated as about 4 Sanden compressors, and a bunch of serpentine belt, for a belt drive application.


4. Compressor would not be happy, evaporator being exposed to 150° temps, your suction pressure would make your compressor scream "UNCLE" real fast.


5. If cooling was achieved to the point of cooling below ambient temperature, you may be having a problem with condensation at that point. WMI kinda goes the other way, adds water, then vaporizes. If things get too good, and it condenses, then things *may* get a little hairy, if condensate is not dealt with properly. It's kinda difficult with the velocity of the air going through the intake.


I too do a/c and commerical refrigeration work, and have toyed with the same idea of cooling the incoming air. I have no room for an intercooler with my setup, because it's a van. There's not enough enough room for a mouse to fit in under the engine box. I have always wondered about the a/c idea myself. But now looking at some of these numbers about just how much water is being injected into these engines, it doesn't look hopeful from my end either.


Now, here's a question for someone, if someone knows the answer to it. Does anyone know just how much you buy in cooling by cooling the air coming in pre-turbo? Since these engines like cool air for the air charge, how does it work with cool air before compression? Are you only looking at like 1°=1° on IAT or what? Or maybe better asked, how much heat is produced at what boost pressure? I see all the numbers coming up from 150-260, but what is the baseline number here? 1#=10°F additional IAT or what?

KN, I have thought about what you say on temps and I think you are right. I was just wondering. As for cooling it pre turbo, you still gain, but like you I would like to know how much heat is exchanged at the turbo. My assumption based on 150-260 numbers was that it is adding in the range of 100+ to the incoming air charge.

lupey,


Although your math is correct, I think there are other variables that need to be taken into consideration when making your comparison. The Hobbs switch that's part of my configuration is set to activate the water pump at 10.5 psi. If I was driving my truck without a trailer, I would never see 10.5 psi for as long as it took me to burn the 42 gallons of fuel that I carry. In that scenario, my water useage would be O gal./hr. However, the more likely scenario is that I'm hauling my trailer; which can approach 10K when we're on a one week journey. In this situation, I'm probably at or above 10.5 psi 50% of the time; which would cut your calculated water useage by at least half. Therefore, the effect of engine load on the rate of water useage is HUGE. In my particular case, my water to fuel ratio is something like 1:1.


There have been several SAE papers written on the effects of water/methanol injection on diesel combustion. In addition to lowering IATs and its subsequent benefits, there is HP increase, lower NOx emissions and lower soot formation rates. And specifically to your point, fuel consumption is decreased. Each of these advantages has been documented. However, in order for me to gain maximum benefit from water/methanol injection, I would need a much more sophisticated system. I don't believe that system is commercially available at this time.

Reducing compressor inlet temps by 10deg reduces outlet temps by 10deg for same load and flow rate - 200deg Boost temp will be 190deg.


Charge-air cooler can reduce compressor outlet temps to ambient.


Most drivers see Boost temps within 30deg of ambient with cooler mounted in clear air stream - 'nother words, not behind AC condensor.


30deg difference from ambient is resulted from ducting and intake plenum being in direct wash from coolant fan, which flows thru condensor and radiator.


Plus, normal underhood heat.Edited by: gmctd

Why not just do what the rally racers do and set up your IC with a water sprayer to cool the intake charge even more? They even put a stock set up like this on the new Subaru Impreza STI. The set up would be extremely cheap nothing more than tank and a couple of window washer nozzles and pump set to an in cab switch. No need for high pressure pump or other set up of a WMI. You could even set the tank up to be large enough to accept an ice block with the water although I don't know how much it would help.

Unless you have a way to capture, cool &amp; recirc the water sprayed not feasible unless you are using the truck for racing and you have ample supply of water to resupply with, IC is the only continuous cooling option IMO, WMI works but you have to refill it and pay for extra weight of water in a tank in fuel use or load reduction, but IC is also most $$$ option, so you need a lot of towing for payback.

water injection systems with up to 220-250PSI:


http://www.snowperformance.net/products.asp?id=10 (http://www.snowperformance.net/products.asp?id=10)


http://www.dps-performance.com/h2o_system.html (http://www.dps-performance.com/h2o_system.html)





water spray onto intercooler kits:


http://www.machv.com/pivwatsprayc.html


I had a link that I cant find any more where the intercooler spray was rigged into the fresh water tank of a 5th wheel! No lack of water volume!!

This is a serious question.


What do you think would happen if I added dry ice to the water/meth in my water tank?

It wouldn't cost much to find out. Would dry ice in water build pressure in the watertank?


Also, is the MeOH (mathanol) there to sustain combustion, add to flow ability, or what exactly?Edited by: quantum mechanic

qm,


I thought about the pressure issue and figured that particular concern shouldn't be an issue as the tank is vented. I'm wondering if dry ice will stay cooler for a longer period of time compared to "regular" ice.


Take a cotton swab, soak it in alcohol, run the swab along your arm, then blow over the area of your arm moistened by the alcohol. The evaporative qualities of the alcohol enhance the cooling effect.


In high concentrations and injection rates the meth can act more like a fuel than a coolant. As you increase the amount of methanol injected, you're releasing more energy in the cylinder as the combined diesel fuel and alcohol burn. At some point the energy released by the extra meth can overwhelm the cooling effect of the injection system and your EGTs go back up.


Some of the fun I'm having with the system is determining the optimum flow rate and optimum water/meth mix. I could increase the meth and this would decrease flow rate significantly. My water tank would last much longer, but the trade-off is the cost of methanol. Decisions, decisions. Having a scanner would really help.Edited by: spindrift

So what is an acceptable % of Alocohol to water and what is to much?

I'm currently using a 30/70 mix of meth to water. Can go as high as 50/50 if the flow is right. I tried the 50/50 mix at 32 oz./min. It was pretty wild. You could actually feel the truck jump when the chemical injection came on. Unfortunately, the gitty-up was also accompanied by some knockin'. Turned the flow control down and all was good. Didn't have quite the same kick, but EGTs were still smilin' at me. I have no idea what my flow rate was as I made the adjustment in a Sheetz parking lot somewhere near New Market, Shenandoah Valley, Virginny.

Where do you get the meth and how much does it cost?


How does it compare to running straight water?

I paid $130 for a 55 gal. drum.


http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp_01_fuels.html


In Jersey, we have chemical plants on every street corner. They sell meth at every track that I know. You can buy it by the gallon in Home Depot. I found a wholesale chemical distributor within an easy drive that would sell it to me. Finding the meth has been the least of my challenges.


I haven't completely tuned the system to my liking. Takes alot of time. I'd really like to tell you, without question, "It makes a difference". Certainly on the cooling/EGT side of things. HP...can't say.

I am just reading this, and must say some of these posts had me rolling on the floor. I really enjoyed it. I am in the process of evaluating the potential for WI as a heat reducing solution for the 30 psi we see in the 6.6 world. So I am reviving this a bit.





Now, here's a question for someone, if someone knows the answer to it. Does anyone know just how much you buy in cooling by cooling the air coming in pre-turbo? Since these engines like cool air for the air charge, how does it work with cool air before compression? Are you only looking at like 1°=1° on IAT or what? Or maybe better asked, how much heat is produced at what boost pressure? I see all the numbers coming up from 150-260, but what is the baseline number here? 1#=10°F additional IAT or what?





This is a highly debated topic. It should buy you efficiency in the turbo. The argument is that the water evaps across it keeping adiabatic compression heating minimized. BTW, the most primitive setups just flow water(not mist) onto the turbo for atomization. Extremely effective but long term harm to the blades. Misting negates that.


Also wanted to add that some of you have continuous water I guess. That would be very wasteful and harmful at low boost settings, as there is little heat to worry about, and water may not be evaporating. A simple pressure switch fixes that.


I am going to be building a kit, if anyone is interested. It will be a 100 psi misting kit, that is activated on higher boost settings, like when towing grades, or track events. EGT temp reduction of 200 minimum and 20% HP increase are the design criteria, along with the obvious charge air cooling consequences. This should also represent a power "value" I plan on it being available for about $3 per HP.

You're thinkng that pre-compressor misting will result in adiabatic compression of the gas (air), but not of the mist?

...reviewed the prior posts and for the life of me couldn't find anything all that hilarious.


As far as I know, there aren't any folks here that are injecting pre turbo, nor are they running continuous water.


Correct me if I'm wrong.

Since questions are being asked again, thought I'd bump it and reopen itfor folks to read about WMI

Since questions are being asked again, thought I'd bump it and reopen itfor folks to read about WMI
Thanks! I'm starting to wonder if this isn't a better way for me to go than the water/air intercooler I've been thinking about.
Or maybe both together...Hmmmm....

Ttt