Took ya'lls advice and cranked each bolt 5 turns, have this much adjustment left over, raised it about 1.4 inches as measured at the tow bars, looks alot better. Are these green keys, or are they ONLY available for purchase and not factory?


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/E41_key.jpgEdited by: Diesel Power

View of amount of threads left after 5 turns on drivers side.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/896_bolt.jpg Edited by: Diesel Power

The end product, an almost level truck.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/ZA2_sideHD.jpg Edited by: Diesel Power

Looks good. Thanks for the pics. How long did it take?

about 15 minutes

Are these green keys, or are they ONLY available for purchase and not factory?
Take a look at your 2nd pic, the one that shows the purple paint splash on the key. Still think it's a green key? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

BTW; the greenies come standard on the 1/2 tons, but can be purchased from the parts counter or from GM Parts (www.gmpartsdirect.com).

I also saw the green part of the paint too, so actually had NO idea which keys they were...*shrugs*, but happy since the truck sits pretty level with a bunch of threads left on the bolts.

Now that you've raised the front end you need to watch the tire wear. Unfortunately raising/lowering the front end causes a change in the camber angle. Anytime the camber angle changes the toe angle also changes. I raised the front of my '03 CC SB to make the truck more level. I max'd out my adjusters and raised the truck almost 2". Now, when measuring the ride height using the flat part of the frame under the cab, I have a 1/2" difference in height between the front and rear along the length of the frame. Front being lower of course.


Also, another thing to consider when you're adjusting the torsion bars, park the truck on a level surface. As you adjust the bars to increase the height, keep the truck level side to side. I do this by checking the level on the front and rear of the truck bed. I also check the level under the truck by putting the level across the frame. All three surfaces may not be exactly level so you make have to find a happy median.


When I'm doing an alignment and I have to resort to the torsion bars to correct an alignment I always check the level side to side. It really looks bad when a vehicle is going down the road and leans to one side or the other.

Great info Notsdale. Thanks

I put a set of GM green keys on 2 weeks ago.


They both had a light green paint splash on them. Don't know if my keys are different than yours, but after install I gained 1.5" without turning the torsion screws all (except enough to thread the end of the torsion screw itself). I cranked a couple of turns more to raise the front another .5" to 2" overall. My front is now 1/2" lower than the rear. I probably have about 4-5 more threads available than in your picture, but each truck differs slightly.


My ride is much smoother after cranking the green keys 2" than it was when I cranked the stock keys all the way in to get 2". Notsdale is correct - get an alignment soon.


Doug

My ride is much smoother after cranking the green keys 2" than it was when I cranked the stock keys all the way in to get 2".





OK, maybe I am missing something here. Maybe someone can explain this to me. It was my understanding (and I may be mistaken here) that the green keys simply change the starting position of the torsion bar. However, for a given front end height, the torsion bars have to have a certain amount of twist or "pre-load" to maintain that height. They only thing the green keys do is give you the ability to reach that point sooner...ie, when you reach that point you will have more adjustment left on the adjuster screws.


So...I don't understand how going to the green keys, and adjusting the ride level to the same height as was reached with the stock keys, can result in a smoother ride. What am I missing here?


Thanks,


John

You are correct. We can argue this till our lips turn blue (green).

All the green keys do is change the starting orientation of the bars.

All torsion bars are is a long bar with hexagon ends. The keys have hexagon holes in them and the lower control arm has a hexagon hole. The bar fits into each component. When you rotate the key, you rotate the bar, which rotates the lower control arm downwards raising the truck. The bars "twist" and "untwist" only during suspension travel. That is the spring.

The problem you create when you lift the front with the torsion bars is you shift the travel envelope out of center. In otherwords, when driving down the road and you drive over a sharp dip in the road, your suspension is already almost at it's lowest travel so it can't drop the tire much further.... you lose road contact..... That is a no-no in normal driving.

From the article link below....

"The range of available travel is determined by the distance between the bump-stops. The gap between the upper set of bump-stops determines the available downward travel. The gap between the lower bump-stops relates to the upward travel on the wheel. If you check the distance between the upper bump-stops at factory spec, you'll notice that the distance here is often not much greater than two finger spaces. If you adjust your torsion bars, which forces the upper control arms down to raise the vehicle. The gap between the upper bump-stops becomes even more tightly-closed together. This action greatly affects the amount the front wheels can 'droop' from the normal rest height."

Personally... I wouldn't do it unless you have a truck that came from the factory with the one or both of the adjuster bolts already just about used up.

Raising the front with the adjusters weakens the steering gear. Ask Michael Tomac.

It also drops the upper control arm into the bump stop, restricting downward travel. This tends to create a harsh ride although not as harsh as the old C/K trucks would get.

I have mine jacked with the stock parts. Ride ain't bad but if I wanted to go higher, I'd be going body or suspension lift.

Read This (http://www.rancho.com.au/webpages/tech_article.htm)Edited by: hoot

I can't explain it either, but Hoot's post notwithstanding, my truck rides smoother and better with the green keys half cranked then the stock ones almost maxed. I don't bottom or top out my shocks or suspension, nor do I have any steering problems. And it sits higher too (41.5" front, 42.5" rear).

Perhaps something ugly (or expensive) will happen down the road because of this "mod", but perhaps not. Only time will tell...

How many miles do you have on the green keys Jim?


I also find that the ride is nicer with the green keys in my truck, compared to my dad's truck with the stock torsion bar bolts maxed. In fact, the bolts on mine are backed out further than stock and it still sits higher than my dad's does with his cranked all the way in.

Hoot,


Excellent info - thanks. I think moderation is the key. I've got a new set of tires/rims coming (BFG 285's) that are wider than my current 255/85 tires, so I'm looking for some wiggle room. After the install, I'll probably back mine down half an inch if there's no rubbing, since the ride quality is measurably stiffer at 2" increase vs. 1.5".


Doug

There is no magic geometrical change the green keys make.

They simply reposition the starting point of adjustment.

The suspension has an uppper limit and a lower limit of travel. By rotating the bars by whatever keys you have installed, you are doing the same exact thing....

You are selecting the postion you want the suspension to be in with reference to the upper and lower limits. The green keys simply put the starting point in a position that gives you more adjusting bolt threads, thus giving you more adjustment to the high side and less to the low side.

To those experiencing better ride quality at higher front height... it can be explained a number of ways...

Did you make other changes at the same time?
Shocks, Tires, Air pressure?

There also could be some dynamics with the tire, shock combination that works better with the front higher. Hard to say.

I know for sure if you jacked up the C/K's up they had a terrible ride. GM did a nice job redesigning this HD suspension to be more tolerant of height changes.

My comment on weakness attributed to the higher setting should only concern those who race or pull in competition. Michael Tomac discovered that lowering the bars to stock height all but eliminated bending tierods.Edited by: hoot

From the factory the lower control arms and the tie rods are fairly level all way across from side to side. When only the front end is raised with no other alterations to the suspension, the tie rods and control arms drop down and are no longer level all the way across. It is the dropping of these parts that creates additional stress. This additional stress is on the tie rods, pittman arm and idler arm.


To put this in perspective, if you have the opportunity to lift the front end from under both lower control arms at the same time, if the tie rods are level with the centerlink, both tires will respond equally when one tire is moved in/out. If the tie rods are lower than the centerlink you will notice that when the tire is moved in/out the tie rods will push up on the center link. Over time then creates additional wear and sloppyness in the steering.

How many miles do you have on the green keys Jim?
Only about 3K thus far.

To those experiencing better ride quality at higher front height... it can be explained a number of ways...

Did you make other changes at the same time?
Shocks, Tires, Air pressure?
Nope -- same shocks, tires and pressure, before and after.

I wish there was some way to explain it, because my logical mind wants to know, but I've never found a way. But my seat-of-the-pants meter sure knows there's a difference.

From the factory the lower control arms and the tie rods are fairly level all way across from side to side.

It was interesting, when I measured the distances up to the frame on the right & left front, how much lower the driver's side was than the passenger side. It was over 1/2" different. You'd think that the factory could do a better job of leveling...

It was interesting, when I measured the distances up to the frame on the right & left front, how much lower the driver's side was than the passenger side. It was over 1/2" different. You'd think that the factory could do a better job of leveling...


I've been doing alignments for many years and I find it very common for the drivers side of the vehicle to be setting lower than the passengers side.


I set my truck up shortly after I purchased it since I didn't like the way the front dipped so much lower than the rear. My torsion adjusters are almost max'ed out. They were initially but I couldn't get a good balance on the camber/caster settings and had to back it off a little.


At the time I aligned it the truck was perfectly level side to side. As mentioned in an earlier post, I checked the level on the front and rear of the bed as well as across the frame. In addition to using the level, I also measured the distance from the fender well opening to the top of the tire to make sure they were equal or close to equal. In my case they were equal.


Tonight, after measuring the distance between the upper control arm and the bumper stop on the frame for the upper control arm I find that there is .25" difference with the drivers side being the higher. When I check the distance between the top of the tire and the fender well opening they are still dead equal.


Tomorrow, I will stop by the dealers and measure the distance between the bumper stop and the upper control arm on an '04 (mine's an '03) and see just how much of the lower suspension travel was deleted by raising the front end.


As far as the ride difference is concerned here's my comments: In reality there should be no difference cranking on the factory keys or replacing them with aftermarket. Here I back up Hoot.


In it's resting unloaded state a torsion bar is nothing more than a straight rod of spring steel. Once it is put under a vehicle and the vehicles weight is placed on it, it twists to it's new resting state. The front is anchored in a fixed position and the rear is anchored in an adjustable position. So far so good.


If I now change the postion of the rear anchor by twisting it, since the vehicles suspension moves up and down, the vehicle will more up and down in response to me moving the anchor. The weight of the vehicle does not change so the pressure on the torsion bar does not change. It's still in the resting state. The only thing that changed is the position of the rear anchor. The change on the one end caused an equal change on the other end.


As an example, no facts here just an example, the factory key can turn the torsion bar 5 degrees. That 5 degrees equates to a change in 2 inches of ride height. The only thing the aftermarket key is doing is it's taking into consideration the 5 degrees. As such, it is offset by 5 degrees. Meaning that when it is installed it has already turned the torsion bar 5 degrees at it's lowest setting. It can then turn the torsion bar another 5 degrees, thus increasing the ride height by 4 inches.


Again, the weight of the vehicle has not changed. The resting state of the trosion bar also has not changed. The only change was the reaction of the suspension as it is forced down.


Using the above example, if the factory key is max'd out and the aftermarket key is set to it's minimum posiiton there should be no change in ride.





Now, putting the keys aside and focusing only on the torsion bars. I know from experience that as the ride height increases the suspension stiffens. Many of you have commented on this also. The only thing I can contribute to this is that it takes more tension to hold the vehilce in the elevated state. Example: in the factory position there's 150 pounds of torque on the torsion bars but when rotated 5 degrees the torque increases to 200 pounds. I sure with the right equipment we could prove this.


Dale

The suspension doesn't stiffen neccessarily...

The problem is when you jack the front end way up, you are putting your suspension travel off center. With it jacked up, the A-arms have tons of upward travel but very little downward travel before hitting the hard stops.

Turning the torsion bars doesn't change the twist angle between the front and rear of the bar... it simply raises the truck. Preload stays the same... until you start pushing against the rubber bumpers.

Bottom line.... too much jacking is not a good thing. Green keys provide... too much jacking.

Can someone tell me where I can find the "green" keys? I've looked at a bunch of different truck parts websites, and can't find any with any kind of torsion bar parts.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


Some of you mentioned gmpartsdirect, but I can't find it there either unless I have a part number.


Any help would be apprecaited.


Thanks!

There are several links available on this sight for green keys. Do a search for pork chop? After reading this entire thread, I have several observations. Many people report a smoother ride and also a drooping left side. Here are my replies.


Drooping left side. Torque baby torque!


Improved ride. A couple of things. The stock shocks develop flat spots/binds. By altering your ride height you might be moving the shock to a more favorabale posistion. You also may be changing your alignment specs. to a more favorable specification? I turned my factory keys 4 turns or 3/4" front ride height. Then had it aligned. It never felt better! Just sitting in the seat more level helped a bunch. The biggest down side I see to leveling the truck is the rear leaf springs. Even a tongue weight of 200LBS causes my rear to drop atleast 1 ". Those leaf springs are very soft the first 2 inches and will squat a bunch under load or over big bumps. If you start completly level then your back half of the truck has nowhere to go but down. I left the front of my truck sitting a little lower than the rear. When I hook my trailer up she sits just shy of level. The rear being about 1/8" low. This works well for me. To each his own.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

You guys that have just installed the green keys are now saying what I have been saying for the past year that I have been running the keys in my HD. The ride is a lot better with the keys vs. just maxing the the stock keys...Period...without a doubt...end of discussion! Doesn't it seem funny that everyone who has swapped the keys comes back and says, hey...there is a noticable difference in ride quality with the green keys over my stock maxed out, glad I did it...and then you have all the people who have never made the swap telling everyone that there is no way there can be a difference and the ride will be worse because all the green keys do is allow you to crank more. Doesn't make any sence does it?


They keys are indexed a little more which allows the control arms to drop before any torquing of the TB begins when installing the keys thus lifting the truck. Because you are starting in a "lifted" position it takes less cranking to achieve the desired ride height therefore resulting in a "smoother" ride. Same thing is true on your stock truck, go out and give your TB's about 6 full turns and you will notice how harsh the ride is, Then go out and turn them back 12 full turns which will be -6 turns from the stock setting and you will find the ride to be very soft (too soft). It all comes down to you starting the torquing of the TB in the lifted position and what you are looking for is the desired ride height. Just so happens it takes less cranking to achieve that height. Granted you are now operating in the lower end of the suspension travel and yes this is a bad thing if you are doing serious off roading but for normal driving you will be just fine.


I know people who have run the set up for several years with no problems and Superlift and others Mfg's have been making this type of lift for over ten years using the same priciple. Trust me, all of us that have made the swap are not liars, were not stupid and we have nothing to gain from saying positive things like better ride, no problems so I don't see why it is so hard for people to listen to those who have actually do it.


Matador, the part number for the keys is #15592573 and you can order from your dealership or gmpartsdirect.com If you do make the swap, get an alignment soon after. Edited by: 03GMC2500HD

I have been following this thread and have read numerous others concerning the adjustment of the torsion bars and have one question concerning this matter that someone may be able to help me with:


In almost all of the threads that I have read most have stated not to adjust the bars more than 2 inchs due to the change of angles will cause damage. By installing the green keys (which raise the front approx 2") wouldn't any adjustment made after thier installation exceed the 2" and cause damage to the front end components.

"Because you are starting in a "lifted" position it takes less cranking to achieve the desired ride height therefore resulting in a "smoother" ride."



http://www.uscom.com/~hoot/misc/smileys/bsflag.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

The ride height comes from the amount of torque placed on the torque rod. It doesn't matter if the torque comes from the initial position of the green key plus two turns, or the original key plus ten turns (assuming 5 turns to get to the middle and 5 turns to get the desired amount of lift). Since there are multiple reports of the smoother rider from the green keys, I think that the extra harshness from the original keys cranked to the max results in the key contacting the portion of the frame (that doesn't touch either in the original configuration or with the green keys) and this contact transmits road vibration to the frame and cab.





MikeEdited by: mfendley

There's no convincing some people so I gave up a long time ago.


And you're right, almost everyone who has installed the keys agree that the ride quality improves compared to having the stock keys with the bolts turned in. The people that think we're full of crap have not tried it.


I've got them, I like them, that's all that matters to me. If anyone asks I'll recommend them and share my personal experience with them.

Unless you are torquing the TB's against a positive stop there cannot be any more torque on the bars due to cranking them. The only real resistance the bars work againt is the weight of the truck which does not change. At the DS key the bar are torqued in a counterclockwise direction, this forces the contol arms to drop as a result only after the maximun tension of the bar is reached. You only have two options, bars break or control arms drop which is what happens because it is the path of least resistance. Now when the keys keeper is installed in the cross member the front suspension is already dropped before you start cranking. Which is lift. You then give it a few more turns to get your desired height. Done!


Hoot, when you installed the green keys in your truck are saying the ride was very harsh like when you just cranked the stock bars?


Camstym, you hit the nail on the head!

I am always up for making adjustments/purchases that will improve ride quality. If there is something to these green keys than I wanna know about it. You guys have me thourghly confused know. First, I noticed a ride improvement from turning my factory keys only 4 full turns which equaled 3/4" on my truck. Alignment only made it better. I liked the ride because I was no longer pointing at the groung and also it seemed a little stiffer/responsive. I understand how the green keys are reindexed to allow for more upward ride height adjustment. This is were I get confused. There is a metal bracket surrounding my tbars. It only has about 1/2 " clearance all the way around the tbars. Moving the tbar straight up or straight down would not account for ride heght differences or ride quality differences. It is just mechanically impossible. So now you are left with turning the tbars. Turning the tbars via the adjustment screw is what raise or lowers the vehicle. I could use a giant pair of vice grips and a breaker bar to grab hold of the tbar and turn it. This is the exact same effect as turning the tbars via the adjustment screw Green or purple. How in the world do the green keys change lift/ride other than by turning the tbars?

Bronco, lets say on a stock truck you have 3/4" of threads showing on the adjuster bolt and the stock key is rotated to a 5 deg angle (Degrees just used for examples) at factory height. You crank that bolt about 8 full turns and now have about 1/8" or less of threads showing and now the keys are rotated to say 15 deg. The rough ride is a result of the amount of pressure it takes to lift the weight (truck) about 1.5" by over torquing the TB beyond the 5 degrees.


Now with the reindexed keys, they are rotated into place and because they are indexed different they are forcing the bars to lift the truck before all the over torquing occurs. So if they start at 0 degrees on the keeper it only need to be cranked up to say 5 degrees with about 1.25" of threads showing before the ride height is reached.


My theory is no better than anyone elses and holes can be shot in it just like everyone elses but the bottom line is that the ride is considerably better and you can easily achieve 2" of lift. I did a comparison when I installed the green keys on ride quality with the stock bars maxed vs. the green keys because I was very skeptical of these "green keys". If you have ever maxed your stock TB's you know how harsh the ride is. The suspension is almost nonexistant and will jar the fillings out of your head. With the green keys cranked up to 2.5" of lift the ride was absolute crap. It bounced all over the road and drove like you were trying to balance on the top of a ball. It was very unstable. I went back and dropped it back to 2" and the ride was just right. I compare it to about 3-4 turns of the stock keys which is just right if you ask me because the stock suspension is way too soft. The steering response is greatly improved and the truck sits with a new attitude. For $50 and 30 min work, they are of the easiest mods I've done to the truck so far.

Could I detune them for only 3/4" lift? This was all I need to accomplish the ride height I wanted on my truck. It took 4 full turns on each side.

I still can't find where I can buy some "green keys". I searched for pork chop like somebody said, but it didn't come back with anything.


HELP!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


Thanks...

Matador, the part number for the keys is #15592573 and you can order from your dealership or gmpartsdirect.com If you do make the swap, get an alignment soon after.

First off, seat of the pants "it rides better" is objective and is the same as saying my truck "feels" faster because I cut off the muffler.

The bottom line is no one can explain mechanically why sending your control arms pointing to the pavement with those porkchops gives you a better ride.

I'll argue till we all turn blue on this one. You guys need to take a class on GM's independent suspension. I keep repeating myself that all you are doing is raising the truck close to the "bottoming out" limit. You guys keep saying "We know and it gives us a better ride"

There is no magic in using those green keys.
It would be the same as grinding the back of the stock ones and using longer bolts so they pivot a little more before the hit the crossmember.

Maybe it does do something that gives you a better ride. Great but the way you are going about the lift is wrong.

Why? Because you are running the suspension in a "dropped" postion at all times which puts many critical components at angles they are only designed to be in for short periods of time.

Michael Tomac discovered that having the truck jacked up like that bends tie rods. He found that by lowering the truck they stop bending. Wonder why?

It's not just tie rods either. You are putting more stress on the center link, pitman arm, idler arm and axle shaft CV joints.

Save now, pay later.



Why do I keep arguing with you guys? Cause i don't like seeing a bunch of guys saying how great something is when it's a known "no-no". I don't like seeing people get IMHO, bad advice.Edited by: hoot

Chevmeister, thanks for pointing it out. I guess I missed it initially.


03GMC2500HD, thanks for the part number. I assume I need to buy 2 (one for each side), and they're the same, right?

So Hoot, How many cranks of stock or green keys are you running to clear your 33's???


As for ride difference I can't tell. It's a cheap mod and guaranteed me the lift I was looking for. Maybe the fact the control arm isn't riding on the bump stops makes the difference.

Hoot are you saying that we need to put our truck on a chassis dyno or something to give you hard evidence? So I guess according to you if I put a supercharger on my truck I don't see any increase in power unless I have dyno proof in numbers because "seat of the pants" is objective? Heck a supercharger and a K&N air filter do the same thing right, they both allow air into the engine so there must not a difference in them. Money wasted I guess!


Still in a year of cussin and discussin on the subject on about a 1/2 doz different sites I have yet to see one person who actually intalled them state that they saw no difference when installing the keys or experienced ANY problems while running the the keys. Again this known "no-no" only comes from those who have no actual experience with it. Why would Superlift and othe major supension lift mfg's offer these type of lifts if they are major "no-no's"? Know one is saying this is the best way to lift which it isn't but not everyone has $2K in thier pocket for a suspension lift, and not everyone wants to climb into and fall out of a new truck day after day and i believe ther are a lot of people who are pretty fond of parking thier new truck in the garage. Some people just want a way to gain a few inches for a little larger tires or whatever and if the keys work and they are easy to install and inexpensive then don't rain on their parade. These people are old enough to make their own decisions whether the they take the "bad advise" from people who have actually done it and have actual results or from those who like to jump on the "negative" band wagon which is based on assumptions.


Lets turn the tables shall we? How much is too much on the CV angle? How many degrees does the angle change between the stock keys and the green keys? At what degree should we be concerned for part failure? How many fewer miles will be able to drive before my CV joint expire? What percent of the travel are we running at? Is there a danger zone where parts fail when operating in the lower limits of the travel? How much more stress am I putting on my suspension component over the factory setting? Since these are a lot of your arguments I guess you have some hard numbers for us otherwise according to you these are just objective assumptions, right?


You never answered if you though the ride was the same with the green keys vs. cranking the stock bars on your truck. I'm curious on your thoughts.


Bronco, if 3/4" is all you needed then I wouldn't mess with installing them because the ride you have now is probably pretty good as it stands and I don't think you would gain much in ride quality only going 3/4" with the keys even if you could, which I'm not 100% sure. If your happy with things now, I would stick with it.

I'll argue till we all turn blue on this one. You guys need to take a class on GM's independent suspension. I keep repeating myself that all you are doing is raising the truck close to the "bottoming out" limit. You guys keep saying "We know and it gives us a better ride"
LOL FYI GM allows for adjustment in ride height. The official term they use is called 'Z-height'.

Z-height is obtained by measuring from the LCA front pivot bolt center down to the ground. This is measurement 'A'.

Next measure from the inside edge of the knuckle or lower ball joint to the floor. This is measurement 'B'.

Subtract 'B' for 'A' to figure your ride height. GM allows for close to 1" of adjustment and we both know more times than not they are on the conservative side. Yes the green keys will give you more than 1" but my point being it is okay. The CVs or front axles can take about 2" of adjustment anything more and they may bind.

The bottom line is no one can explain mechanically why sending your control arms pointing to the pavement with those porkchops gives you a better ride...

...Maybe it does do something that gives you a better ride. Great but the way you are going about the lift is wrong...

Agreed! If it was just one person say it I would be skeptical but every agrees the ride is better, combine the keys w/ a set of aftermarket shocks and it's suppose to be even better. 2" is not going about anything wrong, now if you have someone trying to get 3-4" of lift then I'd be on your side but nobody here is!

Michael Tomac discovered that having the truck jacked up like that bends tie rods. He found that by lowering the truck they stop bending. Wonder why?

It's not just tie rods either. You are putting more stress on the center link, pitman arm, idler arm and axle shaft CV joints.
Stop referring to him...he abuses his truck in a way GM never intended and at power levels above the factory settings. If you want to play you gotta pay! Even without cranking the bars he should have beefed up the tie-rods to handle all the counter weight he uses on the front end. As far as added stress, possibly. But not anymore than your 33" tires put on the bearings. If the H2 can handle/turn 35" tires I'm sure a HD can handle a little steering angle increase and slightly larger tires.

On a closing note I've been running a 6" lift and cranked the bars 2" on my 1/2 ton running 36x14.5" tires. No problems and as many have said the ride seemed to improve. Edited by: y2kboti

Matador, yes you need two. Should be approx $25 each. Remember if you don't think they are worthit or doesn't do what you had hoped you can alway throw them in the classifieds for about what you paid for them, I gaurantee they won't be there long.


Jeli & y2kboti, please stop giving us "bad advise". I'm afraid my truck will start falling apart now!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Why do I keep arguing with you guys? Cause i don't like seeing a bunch of guys saying how great something is when it's a known "no-no". I don't like seeing people get IMHO, bad advice.


How dare anyone argue with the almighty hoot. Why does GM sell these if they are so terrible, hoot? I have several thousand miles on my set and the ride is great, and have yet to run out of suspension travel even with plenty of off road use. By the way hoot, see if you can let this post stay a few minutes longer before you delete it as you did my last.

bpoole20- The reason they sell them is that they fit the 1/2 ton. I bet they are amazed at the rate they are selling, maybe they think now that people are breaking the 1500 front end. Dorf must think the same thing about their F150 keys.


I put new keys on my 1500, and plan to keep the original green keys when I get a HD to raise it's front end. I have run these on my 1500 so far for about 11k miles with no problems. They do ride stiffer than a stock 1500, but I went farther than most people. I still have enough downtravel to not hit the stop though, and it rides better than a stock hd with my RSX shocks.

Why do I keep arguing with you guys? Cause i don't like seeing a bunch of guys saying how great something is when it's a known "no-no". I don't like seeing people get IMHO, bad advice.


How dare anyone argue with the almighty hoot. Why does GM sell these if they are so terrible, hoot? I have several thousand miles on my set and the ride is great, and have yet to run out of suspension travel even with plenty of off road use. By the way hoot, see if you can let this post stay a few minutes longer before you delete it as you did my last.

You can all argue with me all you want. I love a good clean arguement. Heck I'm even known to be wrong every so often http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

It's not that they are soooo terrible, it's what you call a "poor man's" lift.

Why does GM sell them? I can guarantee you 100% they aren't for this purpose. I believe you won't find that part number for our HD trucks. I have my bars adjusted to the ends of the threads. My truck is almost level. I can see where adding the keys will get you that little bit more for perfect level but to tell you the truth, if you use your truck, you really don't want the thing sitting perfectly level, unloaded. Looks hideous when you put some weight in the bed.

There also could be a safety issue when running down the highway with your suspension already close to it's full downtravel. Your front tires will lose contact with the road under certain conditions much sooner than in stock configuration. Put some weight in the bed and forget it, you'll be driving on the travel stops.

When we were teenagers http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif we used to put air shocks and leaf spring shackles in the back of our muscle cars cause it looked good and kept the 14" wide tires from rubbing. Didn't work too good when there were six people in the car though.

Please don't take this personal guys. Tell me I'm wrong... I can handle it.

bepoole20,
What post of yours did I delete? I delete sooo many I don't remember what yours said http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Edited by: hoot

Now you say they are not so terrible and they may do something to make the ride better. I guess NOS is a "poor mans" HP too http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif. If lifting by means of cranking the TB's is so bad then why do you have yours fully cranked? Aren't you worried about all the damaged parts you are going to encounter by doing this "poor mans" lift to your truck? The safety issues? You completely counterdict yourself by coming on here saying how bad this type of lift is then saying you have yours lifted atleast an 1.5" in the same manner. I'm trying to keep up with your reasoning but you make it hard.


I 100% agree with you too that they are not intended for this pupose but they do come factory on the 1500 series trucks. I also 100% gaurantee that GM didn't fully intend for the Duramax to be propane injected, or have 6" suspension lifts but people do it don't they? Why? Because they can and it works.


As far as a safety issue and losing contact with the road, I agree with you there also but only if your doing 70 mph down an old back road that is full of huge pot holes. On typical highway driving I have never seen suspension go beyond its travel limits.


Somehow I would bet if the the sky didn't have a cloud in it and I said look at that blue sky you would say ...no its red!

Yea I was thinking about the lp.... figured sooner or later somebody would say something about me doing things to my truck.

My bars are cranked and yes it does put the front up and off spec. But going to a 1500 key to go even further is pushing it. Basically that's all I'm saying.

All I'm doing is laying out the facts, throwing in some opinion.

Here's a nother one for you.... torsion bars can break. My buddy had an F150 that broke two of them... in stock form.

By raising the front, you are allowing the bars to be "twisted" a whole lot more than they were originally designed for. This happens when you load the truck up then hit a hard bump. In stock form, the control arm will hit the upper stop before going beyond the designed "twist".

chew on that for a while http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Marvel mystery oil down carburator=Poor mans overhaul


Green keys= Poor mans lift kit


straight pipe=poor mans exaust system


Kerosen=Poor mans diesel fuel additive


24 pack empty beer carton over radiator=poor mans winter gaurd


2wd with locker ,chains and lift kit =poor mans 4x4


Orange road cone =poor mans exaust tip( not really I am just out for now)

By raising the front, you are allowing the bars to be "twisted" a whole lot more than they were originally designed for. This happens when you load the truck up then hit a hard bump. In stock form, the control arm will hit the upper stop before going beyond the designed "twist".



OK Hoot, I'm calling BS on this. I thought we all agreed adjusting stock or adding green keys does not twist the bar any more just reindexes them. The weight of the truck didn't change and the change in geometry doesn't make a big enough difference to add a load. I will agree the altered suspension, as a result of cranking, may cause damage if you hit the bump stops too hard. That's why GM references the Z height and warns about shocks topping out.

It can be argued that any mod you do to your truck could cause long term damage, void warranty or may not be safe.


Maybe raising your truck with keys or cranking the bars will cause damage to your truck in the long run or maybe it won't. Maybe having an aftermarket power programmer on your truck will damage your engine in the long run or maybe it won't. It can go on and on and on and on...


If you use your truck for "work" and plan to put 2-300k miles on it you should not do any 'performance' or suspension mods. These trucks were designed and tuned to get the most use and miles possible in their stock form. And yes, doing these mods we do to our trucks most likely will shorten the life of the truck or will cause permature failure in a part.


But, I do not care. I do not plan on putting 200k miles on my truck. I just want to have fun with it for about....ah... 120k miles or about 5 years. After that I do not care if the truck turns to dust.


I have the Green Keys on my truck. I love them. My ride is great. Would I recommend them....yes, to someone who is drives their truck 2-300k miles...no. The same thing goes for about every other mod I've done to my truck.


Jesse

By raising the front, you are allowing the bars to be "twisted" a whole lot more than they were originally designed for. This happens when you load the truck up then hit a hard bump. In stock form, the control arm will hit the upper stop before going beyond the designed "twist".



OK Hoot, I'm calling BS on this. I thought we all agreed adjusting stock or adding green keys does not twist the bar any more just reindexes them. The weight of the truck didn't change and the change in geometry doesn't make a big enough difference to add a load. I will agree the altered suspension, as a result of cranking, may cause damage if you hit the bump stops too hard. That's why GM references the Z height and warns about shocks topping out.


Again... you guys do not understand what you're dealing with.

The bars aren't twisted more at normal truck weight. But with the bars "indexed" more so the suspension is near the bottom of it's travel, that means there is a ton of upwards travel.

In stock position, under normal truck weight, the suspension travel is centered between the top and bottom stops. That means the bars can only twist so many degrees before you hit the upper stop.

BUT when you have your bars re-indexed and the suspension turned down to raise the truck, there is a boatload of twist available when you hit a pothole.

Guys... I'm not out to get you on this.

Hoot, you're at 1 1/2" lift right now with stock keys. Correct?


Have you TRIED the green keys, set at 1 1/2" lift? Notice any difference in ride quality? I bet if the first answer is yes, the second will be yes as well..


$50 is less than the price of ONE Bilstein shock. If it improves ride quality, why is it the antichrist?


Just because you install the green keys doesn't mean you have to set your ride height at 2" or higher.

Hoot, you're at 1 1/2" lift right now with stock keys. Correct?


Have you TRIED the green keys, set at 1 1/2" lift? Notice any difference in ride quality? I bet if the first answer is yes, the second will be yes as well..


$50 is less than the price of ONE Bilstein shock. If it improves ride quality, why is it the antichrist?


Just because you install the green keys doesn't mean you have to set your ride height at 2" or higher.

There is no difference in the bars when the truck is set at 1 1/2" with or without the green keys. You're right, it's not the end of the world. Tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about.

It's got a better ride at the same height with the green keys and you can't explain it. We'll leave it at that.

I'm turning blue http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif Edited by: hoot

Just saying, for someone that spends $260+ on a set of Bilsteins, you might entertain the thought of a $50 set of torsion bar keys to further help the ride. I don't care if you do or not it just seems logical to me.

Just saying, for someone that spends $260+ on a set of Bilsteins, you might entertain the thought of a $50 set of torsion bar keys to further help the ride. I don't care if you do or not it just seems logical to me.

I will if you can convince me how that works.

Truce http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif I'll leave you guys alone for a couple of posts

I'll have to sign up for GM's independent suspension class in my next semester and get back to you on that Hootie!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Here's a nother one for you.... torsion bars can break. My buddy had an F150 that broke two of them... in stock form.
Yes torsion bars can break. Ford has horrible problems w/ the F-150 breaking torsion bars at random. Guys would be starting their trucks to go to work and...WHAM! GM has been at IFS for 15 years now. I think they have a little more experience at it and I have yet to hear of a GM torsion bar breaking even on some of these 12" and 14" lift kits.

The bars aren't twisted more at normal truck weight. But with the bars "indexed" more so the suspension is near the bottom of it's travel, that means there is a ton of upwards travel.

In stock position, under normal truck weight, the suspension travel is centered between the top and bottom stops. That means the bars can only twist so many degrees before you hit the upper stop.
I will agree w/ you hoot that the suspension travel range is changed but under 'normal truck weight' the suspension travel still isn't centered. If it were these trucks wouldn't be sitting on the bumpstops(or whatever GM calls them) from the factory.

The better suspension lift kits keep the suspension centered between bump stops. They also maintain "stock" driveline angles and they brag about it. Did you ever wonder why?

"I will agree w/ you hoot that the suspension travel range is changed but under 'normal truck weight' the suspension travel still isn't centered. If it were these trucks wouldn't be sitting on the bumpstops(or whatever GM calls them) from the factory."

Not true. The "rubber" bump stops are designed to engage early. There are HARD stops. They are the ones I'm talking about.
Edited by: hoot

The explanation may be as simple as the new keys changing the angle that the A arm pushes from thus changing the mechanical advantage.

Hoot, don't give up now. 03GMCD2500HD, don't talk about things you don't fully understand.


1.) Fact: Torsion bars are simply straight coil springs. It takes X pounds force to twist them Y degrees. You change the springs rate by changing the diameter or length of the torsion bar. (Actually, the formula uses radius to the power of 4 - it has that much effect.)


2.) Fact: Regardless of your static indexing (keyed end at the frame) it's still going to take X pounds force to twist them Y degrees. You can change the static indexing until you are blue in the face (pun intended) and it will not change the torsion bar spring rate. Analogy: If you stick a leaf spring in a vice, it will take you X pounds of force to move it Y inches, whether you put it in the vice vertically or parallel to the ground.


3.) Fact: What is holding the static index in place doesn't affect the torsion bar spring rate. It can be a key, it can be a bar welded into the crossmember, it can be a lever, it doesn't matter. That's stationary and independent of the spring. Analogy: take that leaf spring out of the vice and stick into something else stationary and it'll still take the same amount of force for you to spring it Y inches.


4.) Fact: The GM front suspension is intended to "just" sit on the front spring jouncers/bump stops. Look at the trucks on the sales lot. Read the shop manuals.


5.) Fact: A GM key simply sets the indexing of the torsion bar - NOTHING ELSE. It is a static part, i.e. plays NO active role in your suspension. I.e. IT DOES NOT MOVE when your tires go up and down.


From these facts, we can conclude some things:


1.) Changing to a different GM key doesn't affect your spring rate, ride quality, or _ANYTHING_ - even Z-height (read on Hoot).


2.) Changing to a different GM key and keepings its adjustment bolt at the same location will change your torsion bar indexing, which will change your Z-height. Keeping the same GM key and adjusting the bolt will also change your Z-height. Switching to a different key and adjusting the bolt can give you the same Z-height. REMEMBER: the torsion bar hasn't changed its spring rate, etc., etc.


3.) Although the torsion bar hasn't magically changed its metalurgy to give you a different spring rate, your effective spring rate will change when changing your Z-height on our trucks. Why? The torsion bar isn't the only part of the active suspension.


3.a.) When you change to the green key (or wind in the bolt) you raise your suspension off the spring jouncers. Doing so will DECREASE your effective spring rate at static right height because in raising the Z-height, the side effect is only the torsion bar is now your active suspension component. During up-wheel travel, this modified-to-lower spring rate will be in effect until you contact the jouncer (now a bump stop), then you will return to the factory spring rate. This is why people report "better ride" - because you have more up-wheel travel before the suspension will "firm up" back to stock spec's - i.e. increase the spring rate until up-travel is stopped.


3.b.) By winding out the bolt to lower your front suspension, you effectively place more load on the spring jouncers, and less on the torsion bar, again effectively giving you a LOWER spring rate. You have unloaded the torsion bar because more weight will be transferred to the spring jouncers/bump stops. We surmise this will give a "soft" feel to the truck based on the different (variable) spring rate between the "jouncer" and the unloaded torsion bar. It will have a different feel than 3.a.) due to different spring rates. In the extreme case, the key can simply be unloaded and allowed to move, which renders the torsion bar to absolutely no effect, and all spring rate will be in the spring jouncer.


3.c.) Down-wheel travel is not affected by raising the Z-height UNTI

The explanation may be as simple as the new keys changing the angle that the A arm pushes from thus changing the mechanical advantage.

Nope

It's about time somebody came in and typed for me.
Thanks ryeguy!!!!!!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

By using the Green Keys which reindex the torsion bars it does in fact change the Z-height. In other words take 2 identical trucks. One equipped w/ the factory keys the other equipped w/ Green keys. Turn each adjuster bolt 10 times and the truck w/ Green keys will be higher. By reindexing the 'static' end of the torsion bars it takes less turns to acheive the same amount of Z-height. With that said it doesn't matter whether you use your factory or green keys 1" is 1", 2" is 2"' CV angles amd steering angles are all the same.



Lift kits in general: there are 2 styles for our trucks: ones that drop the complete front end, and those who use drop spindles.* Since Superlift was listed here, let's examine it.* It's the first style -*drops the whole front end, just like the Pro Comp kit.* It also drops down the bump stop/spring jouncers.* They use the same torsion bars, so the added leverage (from the added height of the vehicle, more unsprung weight) will see more travel and make the truck seem to ride better, smoother.* Note that these kits also lower the frame mounts for the torsion bars (where the keys are located), which will negate, among other things, the keys from binding during normal suspension travel.
Not true. The lifts specifically Superlift, drop everything the full amount including all bump stops and steering componenets. You do not gain any travel; the only way to gain travel is to use a longer upper and lower control arms.

Okay, to re-type: Simply changing the keys doesn't necessarily affect Z-height. Changing to different keys with the bolts the same setting will (as stated). Changing the keys and setting the bolts differently can give you the same Z-height.


By using the Green Keys which reindex the torsion bars it does in fact change the Z-height. In other words take 2 identical trucks. One equipped w/ the factory keys the other equipped w/ Green keys. Turn each adjuster bolt 10 times and the truck w/ Green keys will be higher. By reindexing the 'static' end of the torsion bars it takes less turns to acheive the same amount of Z-height. With that said it doesn't matter whether you use your factory or green keys 1" is 1", 2" is 2"' CV angles amd steering angles are all the same.




Lift kits in general: there are 2 styles for our trucks: ones that drop the complete front end, and those who use drop spindles. Since Superlift was listed here, let's examine it. It's the first style - drops the whole front end, just like the Pro Comp kit. It also drops down the bump stop/spring jouncers. They use the same torsion bars, so the added leverage (from the added height of the vehicle, more unsprung weight) will see more travel and make the truck seem to ride better, smoother. Note that these kits also lower the frame mounts for the torsion bars (where the keys are located), which will negate, among other things, the keys from binding during normal suspension travel.



Not true. The lifts specifically Superlift, drop everything the full amount including all bump stops and steering componenets. You do not gain any travel; the only way to gain travel is to use a longer upper and lower control arms.


These kits will/should achieve more droop by providing longer shocks (because the upper shock mount isn't moved), and changing how/where the suspension (A-arms) bottom out.


These trucks don't have control arms, they have A-arms, and there is a difference. Every kit that I'm aware of for our trucks use stock A-arms. Longer A-arms could (given our suspension design) give you more travel, but increase track width (or you'd have to inboard the mounts on the frame...)


Anyway, specifically, I was referring to the additional leverage (heavier tires, more CoG) playing a factor in how much the torsion bars will twist.


--Rob

First off, seat of the pants "it rides better" is objective and is the same as saying my truck "feels" faster because I cut off the muffler.
Um, that would be subjective. Objective is based on facts. A Freudian slip perhaps? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

The bottom line is no one can explain mechanically why sending your control arms pointing to the pavement with those porkchops gives you a better ride.
Nor can they explain the opposite.

Michael Tomac discovered that having the truck jacked up like that bends tie rods. He found that by lowering the truck they stop bending. Wonder why?
Because he had other problems too? With all due respect to Michael, who I don't know at all (and I'm not harassing either), but how is he the expert? Has he taken the IFS class you mentioned? Or perhaps he's the one example you can find that will "prove" your theory?

Why do I keep arguing with you guys? Cause i don't like seeing a bunch of guys saying how great something is when it's a known "no-no".
Again, know by whom? I don't have any objective (there's that word again http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif) data that proves or disproves what you're saying. But your voice, like all of ours, is merely echoing an opinion. It may seem logical to you -- and it might even be the truth -- but right now it's merely an opinion.

These kits will/should achieve more droop by providing longer shocks (because the upper shock mount isn't moved), and changing how/where the suspension (A-arms) bottom out.

These trucks don't have control arms, they have A-arms, and there is a difference.* Every kit that I'm aware of for our trucks use stock A-arms.* Longer A-arms could (given our suspension design) give you more travel, but increase track width (or you'd have to inboard the mounts on the frame...)
To retype: A suspension lift will NOT give you anymore travel. The bumpstops are lowered the same amount as the control arm pivot mounts therefor they still limit the travel to the same amount. You are right when you say longer arms=increased track width. Or as you suggested redesigning the pivot mounts closer to the center of the chassis like a trophy truck. However that is the only way to increase travel on a torsion bar equipped truck. Suspension lifts are just that, all they do is lift the truck by dropping the suspension and related parts 'X' amount of inches. Without nitpicking too much the lower arm is an 'A-arm' while the upper is a 'control arm'. A-arm, control arm it's all the same in my book.

I leave this to rest now.Edited by: y2kboti

Ryeguy, very informative post. I bet it took at least an hour or so to write that out about a dozen times on paper before you got it just right and typed it in. Anyway after reading it and rereading it I can't see where you have made a point at all. It actually echoed everything we have been saying about not putting anymore twist in the TB's but merly reindexing causing the lift. Very impressive though!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


You also say something about Superlift and thier lifts. What I was reffering to was their torsion bar lift kits which consist of new A-arms (which are longer), add-a-leafs for the rear, optional replacement torsion bars, and oh yes...reindexed torsion bar keys. They have had these for over 10 years! I guess they have no idea what they are doing too.


In your last post you say that the Superlift kits add more droop by adding longer shocks. What??? Let me ask this, if there is more droop what does that do to those precious CV joint you guys keep talking about that will get damaged with increased angles. Woudn't that cause a severe angle like what we are doing to ours? So I guess your saying that now all suspension lifts cause front end damage? Tyring to follow what you are saying. Oh I forgot, 1.5" like Hoot has is OK and doesn't cause damage but 1.75"-2.0" like we have does. Sorry I had to reread to see that, my bad!!!!! Rrrrrrrright!!!!


Ryeguy are you saying that when you installed the green keys on your truck it rode the same as when you cranked the stock TB's? If so you would be the first person who I have seen say that after installing them properly.


Again, bottom line, the ride I experienced after comparing the two set ups one right after the other determined that the ride was much nicer with the green keys over cranking. Funny how my results are exactly the same as the others who have actually done it.

y2kboti:


Suspension travel:
= stuff + droop
'Stuff' = up-wheel travel, limted by the bump stops (ideally) or shocks or something else
'Droop' = down-wheel travel
Lift kits sometimes use the stock spring jouncers, not always, you could see a bit of change in travel there. Often a lifted truck is heavier (my Blazer is 8000#, it'll crush any bump stop a lot more than at stock weight of 4500#). So you can get a bit there, but honestly, it's going to be negligible.
As for droop, the torsion bar will not (for our suspensions) affect droop, it will only unload, then eventually re-load up (assuming the key is locked in place, which it is not, so the torsion bar will let the suspension droop forever). So what is stopping droop? Either the shock or a limiting strap, or something built into the suspension to keep the A-arms from drooping too far (this is it, to avoid hyper-extending the upper ball joint). A lift kit has a longer shock, so it'll have more potential for travel. The assemblies that are built to lower the front end completely won't use the factory stops, so they will have the potential to allow the A-arms to swing down further, i.e. travel further. So, yes, a lift kit can provide you with more suspension travel, and it's up to the designer of the kit to determine exactly how much. And we've done so without replacing or modifying the A-arms.


03GMC2500HC: Thanks, actually it only took 3 passes, and in this silly little editor.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif However, my points are the following:
- some facts need to be stated and they weren't
- for everyone claiming that the green keys provide a better ride than the stock keys, the ONLY way this can be is if the stock keys are binding the torsion bars. My opinion is that of Hoot's, though, admittedly, I didn't finish with that.


So, let's finish that.


The the Pro Comp lift drops the torsion key assemblies 4 inches, but the front assembly 6. And everybody who has the kit, likes its ride. So the angles between the frame and torsion bar (and key) has changed. If the ride is still good on the Pro Comp lift, then it stands to reason that the stock keys have enough "travel" in them to keep from binding the torsion bars, even at a different angle to the frame.


I will further this by examining Superlift's kit. It advertises their lift as being adjustable from 6 to 7.5 inches by simply adjusting the keys - advertising no affects on ride quality. So...6 inches lift, keys set stock, everything at stock angles (just the front end assembly and torsion bar mounts are dropped from the frame) gives a certain ride quality. Then we go and raise the front end another 1.5 inches and no change in ride quality...but wait a sec, if that whole front clip is simply moved down, any change in ride quality would also have to be present on a stock truck with the keys cranked - due to the design of the Superlift kit.


So...either your seat-of-the-pants analysis that green keys are better than cranked stock keys is wrong, or...
...all of this analysis (that I assume you agreed with it 'cause you haven't questioned it) AND Superlift's claim of no change in ride quality AND Pro Comp's kit design are ALL wrong.


I'll guess that your seat-of-the-pants analysis is what needs re-evaluating. And before you say (yet again) "it's that way and other people think so to", give me a reason to believe you - 'cause it's contradicting what I put here (that you've accepted), Superlift's claims, and Pro Comp's design.


FYI, my truck is stock. I had a chance to ride in a green-key'd DMax with the spring jouncers lowered, and other th

Jim WIlson,

No that wasn't a froidian slip... just not using the corrct word.

Michael Tomac drag races his trucks. He found that with the bars cranked the tie rods would bend on a 4x4 launch. He then found that if he lowered the truck to stock height they stopped bending.

You guys and your green keys are full of it. It's doesn't take a page long post to explain it but somehow you guys think there is something magical about it. There is not.

There is nothing to prove. Get under your truck, do some google searching, ask some techs.

In the end... you guys are full of it. All the green keys do is allow you to point the a arm farther downward away from the upper bump stop. Doesn't give you more overall travel, doesn't give you a smart way of raising the truck.

It does raise the truck and it does put the suspension close to it's downward limit. It does put your axles and tie rods at severe angles all the time. It does allow over springing the torsion bars (not at rest but on hard bumps or potholes).

It's not the way to do it.

Edited by: hoot

Rye, seriously, do me a favor if you don't mind. Since you said you road in a green keyed D'max and you said you actually though the ride felt like stock. Go to your truck and measure the amount of threads on the TB adjuster bolts on each side as they may be different and your distance from the ground to your fender flare lip as a second measurement. Then crank your bolts at least 8 turns or until they bottom out. Take a fender measurement and you will probably see about 1.25"-1.5" of lift. Now take your truck for a spin around town. You can then come back and loosen the bolts back to the factory measurements you took and you will be back to normal. Whole thing won't take more than 15 min to do. Come back and give us your honest opinion if the green keyed D'max and your cranked bars ride the same. No trying to be cute or anything, just asking you to give it a try.


I think everyone is thinking way too hard to come up with mechanical reasons why these keys work/don't work but isn't it up to the person who drives the truck to decide wether or not a mod was an improvement or not? Certainly someone from across the country or continent for that matter can't possibly know more about my truck and how what mods effect my truck or how it drives more than numeral uno, right? No matter what a book or physics say. Only way for people to positively know if they work or not is to try them and decide for themselves. Very low cost mod to try


As far as the Yokohamas go, I hate them! We have 4" of snow/ice on the ground and the other night I was messing with my son and tried to do a donut and the damn things got so much traction it barely made it around!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif actually they are the best tires I have ever owned and would buy again. Quiet, great traction, most aggresive AT tread I have seen, cool looks and so far great wear. For $125 ea. I think they are one of the best out there.

Hoot;


Your forgetting the placebo effect. I'm going to take two sugar pills (for my headache) and go to bed.

Its just like my bug sheild. I payed 50.00 bucks for it. It has to keep snow, rain and bugs off of my glass. The only things it really does is look cool and screw up the factory aero dynamics of my truck. Go figure!

...and frig up the paint on the hood.

I spray painted my keys purple yesterday. Ride seem mushy now http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

You guys and your green keys are full of it. It's doesn't take a page long post to explain it but somehow you guys think there is something magical about it. There is not.
Full of it? Really -- perhaps you're the one who's full of it.

Nobody in the green key "camp" is claiming that there's anything magical about them. Only that the ride of the truck is better, and you get more height, with them installed then the stock keys cranked. The rest of the arguments are moot, because that's not the real issue. And I highly doubt someone who drag races their truck is a good candidate to use as an example. A lot of stuff is gonna break on that truck, sooner then later, because of how hard it's used (yea, I did some research on him and saw all the other stuff he does with his truck too).

Will the green keys have some type of long term or detrimental affects? Maybe, maybe not. But for sure the ride is better, even if you don't want to believe it.

Jim,

I'm really not arguing the ride quality. Like the other guys said, if you don't have them in, how can you know?

It might have something to do with not hitting the upper bumper as soon. Who knows.

I look at it as an example of something good coming out of something bad..... sorry... just diggin you guys more http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

LMAO, we're all full of it, Hootie sez so, so let's take his word for it and admit that our assometer chassis dynos can't tell the difference between a buckboard ride (cranked t-bar bolts) and a STOCK ride (green keys).


Our way is the stupid way of lifting a truck, although he's basically gone about lifting his the same way as us but has a sh*ttier ride quality.


Michael Tomac ran 600 or so horsepower through his front drivetrain launching under boost, and he broke a couple parts, so we're all going to break parts too.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Thanks for clarifying Hoot, my majical green keys give me a pillowy soft ride, plus sits a wee bit taller than yours. I guess if I wanted to lift my truck the SMART way, I'd take the green keys out, put in the stock ones, and crank my torsion bar bolts until I've got not quite as much tire clearance as I had before (because they won't turn in far enough), and enjoy my newfound buckboard front end ride. What was I thinking???


Now that we've clarified things, I'm off to go drive the short bus.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Camstyn

You're welcome...

If you want to lift your truck the smart way you'd get either a body lift or a well designed suspension lift.

If you want to lift your truck the smart way you'd get either a body lift or a well designed suspension lift.
LOL http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Now theres a good piece of advice...that is if anyone even maybe a body lift for a Damx equipped truck! Suspension lift is a good idea just to bad I need to tow a 5er otherwise I'd put one on in a heartbeat.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

If you want to lift your truck the smart way you'd get either a body lift or a well designed suspension lift.
LOL http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Now theres a good piece of advice...that is if anyone even maybe a body lift for a Damx equipped truck! Suspension lift is a good idea just to bad I need to tow a 5er otherwise I'd put one on in a heartbeat.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

I know body lifts aren't the greatest either but a 2" would do the trick. There are some around that have done a body lift. They don't make one for a diesel but if you look under the radiator you'll see why. Some of the cooling hoses need extensions and i don't think the lift companies want to touch the stock engine. It can be done. There may be cooling issues with some diesels also because the rad won't be directly in front of the fan by how many inches you lift. The Dmax doesn't care. It's a very cool running engine as it is.

I know it can be done but as you mentioned I've also heard of cooling issues, hoses needing extension and I've also heard there is an issue w/ the turbocharger. All this applies to the LB7 and I don't know the specifics about the turbocharger issues but I'm not willing to experiment.

By raising the front, you are allowing the bars to be "twisted" a whole lot more than they were originally designed for. This happens when you load the truck up then hit a hard bump. In stock form, the control arm will hit the upper stop before going beyond the designed "twist".




OK Hoot, I'm calling BS on this. I thought we all agreed adjusting stock or adding green keys does not twist the bar any more just reindexes them. The weight of the truck didn't change and the change in geometry doesn't make a big enough difference to add a load. I will agree the altered suspension, as a result of cranking, may cause damage if you hit the bump stops too hard. That's why GM references the Z height and warns about shocks topping out.





Again... you guys do not understand what you're dealing with.

The bars aren't twisted more at normal truck weight. But with the bars "indexed" more so the suspension is near the bottom of it's travel, that means there is a ton of upwards travel.

In stock position, under normal truck weight, the suspension travel is centered between the top and bottom stops. That means the bars can only twist so many degrees before you hit the upper stop.

BUT when you have your bars re-indexed and the suspension turned down to raise the truck, there is a boatload of twist available when you hit a pothole.

Guys... I'm not out to get you on this.


Geez...I go on vacation for a couple days and...


Anyway, I didn't have the patience to read everything since my last post but I will retract my previous BS call. Hoot, after rereading your post I agree with specifically what you said in the above quote.

Well.....





Only thing I can think of is that the word is "subjective" not "objective"





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

All you guys argueing about this....sheesh!!! BUT that's why its a forum, right?


Isn't it true that the 1/2 tons come from the factory with the "green keys"? If so, and if the designs of the 1/2 and 3/4 ton truck frames / suspensions are the same, then wouldn't the 1/2 ton trucks be having problems by now? Wouldn't we be hearing about broken parts, rough rides, etc?


My take is the green keys give you a higher starting point, with less strain on the bars, therefore if you add the same "X" number of turns to the screws, you will have a similar higher finish point, with less stain on the bars, leaving the ride quality the same, just higher.


Wouldn't raising "X+" turns on the screws using the stock keys put more initial "at rest" strain on the bars, and wouldn't that lessen the amount of "twist" that they have, resulting in a harsher ride? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I dunno...I'm not an engineer, I just drive truck.


Seems to me that it doesn't matter what YOU do, just that YOU are happy with the results. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


As for Mike Tomac....I'd LOVE to have his problems!!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif Damn...600+ horse (or was it over 700 now?) and streetable....HOOOYAAAA!!!!! GO MIKE! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


Tom http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pig.gif

One thing i will say.... even though i've gone to the Dark Side.... GM builds a good susp system. I have heard of other brands breaking torsion bars and even have a good friend that broke two on his stock F150. I have never heard of a broken torsion bar on a GM truck. Not that it's never happened.

I've ownd like four GM 4x4's with IFS, light duty and heavy duty. I installed a Superlift on one way back. I can tell you from experience that it's not a complicated system and its super easy to maintain... easier than solid front axles.

It does have some issues but so do the other designs. i think the biggest problem with IFS is it doesn't have the GAVW as the solid units. That's why my Dodge Quad Cab with a heavy diesel comes with a snow plow prep but you can't get it with GM IFS. That doesn't effect 99% of us though.

I don't think the green keys will hurt anything more than shorten the lif of a few components. They may cause excessive CV joint wear or some steering inconsistancies but so do other suspension mods. Anything that does werar out is really not that hard to replace or is all that expensive

I just don't agree that jacking up stock suspension with clocked keys is the right way to do it.Edited by: hoot

Really hate to butt in here, but there seems to be a lot of mis-understanding going on here.


For those of you that think "indexing" doesn't mean anything, I (along with most racers) would disagree, indexing provides a reference point, whether it is crankshafts, camshafts, or progressive rate springs. starting points are critical in all of these cases.


In regards to these types of springs, they have an effective 'area of operation'/or rebound, they do not lend themselves well to 'height adjustment in regards to ride quality. Simply stated, as an example, if they were able to flex 360 degrees, then to achieve an optimum point of deflection (in regards to rebound) 180 to 220 degrees would be a premium index point. Just cranking up the springs will leave you at the end of the springs ability to deflect properly.


Cranking up the spring to gain hieght (as opposed to re-indexing) would pose all the same dynamic problems regarding upper-end rebound issues, that a racer would have not "re-indexing" a camshaft to adjust for engine changes. Everything needs a proper reference.


Control arm & axle angles are another issue...but in regards to spring height, proper indexing of the springs is critical to 'rebound', & after all, thats all springs really do (rebound). Shocks absorbers don't really absorber shock, they control spring rebound. & bushings control shock.


hope this helps out.......

Perfectly stated I couldn't have said it better myself http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Loki_nine,


Great post. There has been so much information put out about these things, it's pretty confusing to suspension dumb-a$$e$ like me. Your post makes sense,


Thanks,
Dennis