This is what was done to the truck in july 06 when it hit the road after being down for 6 months for the new engine motor blew early Nov.
Trippin heads with stock valves receased into the head for clearance.
Big Comp Cam
Stock LB7 pistons
compression ratio left stock 17.5:1
Stock rods shot peened and kryo treated
stock crank
2 hole EDM injectors that where originaly 25% extrude honed
ATS Aurora 5000
Dual Fuelers
Toman intake
4.10 gears
suncoast V
Kennedy tuning
and finally removed EDMED sticks and put in Kennedy nozzles which made a huge difference by the seat of the pants and the distance the sled was being pulled.
When the motor was torn down it had all these problems, 4 broken valves, all valves where hitting pistons, 8 bent rods, junked crankshaft, pistons had indications of high egts, as well as the heads, engine had coolant pitting, and had been run without oil.

The best way to describe what worked and what didn't would be to state if I where building a motor now how would I do it.

First and formost I would run Kennedy s tuning and injectors as his trucks are the top performers on the tracks along with the TTS trucks and he proved himself to me with his extensive knowledge of how to dyno a diesel truck, even if you do not like the numbers.The original EDMed injectors where flow tested and it was found that there was a large difference in flow from one stick to the next, cause was unknown so the only thing I can say is go with whats proven to work and right now extrude honed is it.

I would run The PPE dual fuelers but would ditch the Aurora and run a T4 or larger pedistal with a Forced Induction gt42.The Aurora had its place in the begining but now I believe is being outgunned by better engineered units.

I would run crower rods with stock LB7 pistons with valve relief for a Socal or TTS cam, I would not decompress as I do not see the need for it with a 2.8 street charger, if i was going to go with a bigger charger I would lower it no more then the LBZ compression ratio, why?? well if i am not stuffing all the extra air in why decompress it, I am just giving up power then.
ARP studs all around.
4.10 gears best mod hands down for pulling.


I would run SoCal heads but not with bronze silica guides as they can not seem to handle egts that pullers put down. My egts where high (2000 on the dyno)with the bad injectors in but the truck ran well until late october 2 months after the new sticks where instaled and lower egts and outside air temps.It makes me wonder if they had broke down and when the cold weather hit had contracted and almost grabbed the valves as when it was cold the truck ran like crap absolutly no power till it got warm(it was weird but that theory seems to make the most sense).It was also on the coldest morning that the motor let loose and broke the 4 valves (the motor never fired only turned over with the starter) so the valves in my opinion never moved.

Stock crank seems to work fine, mine was junked because my motor was run without oil and although i had 2 turbo problems which resulted in lots of oil loss the truck was shut down quickly and oil pressure was maintained both times and i never even got the oil pressure warning in the cab, come to think of it the only time i ever got the oil pressure warning Eric was driving after he installed my new injectors and the crankcase filled with Fuel.
I would only run stock head gaskets as well as the Kometics have had lots of trouble even on stock trucks and no body else has stepped up that I know of, I am not saying they do not exist though.
My head gaskets where fine and I never lost water the only time water got in the motor was when during the injector install the coolant was not drained properly and when a injector was removed coolant went staight into the cylinder probably resulting in the pitting Jon seen.

I would also run the toman intake manifold and increase all intercooler piping to the max i could and run as large of an inake as well, probably look hard at a air to water intercooler to supplement the air to air, what ever i could do to lower egts.

The only other thing i would watch is my fueling as I do not belive we need to over fuel like a dodge does as we are so efficient at burning fuel we just create more problems like high CP wtih all the extra.

This is how I would do it,do what you want at your own risk.
I am telling it like it is I have nothing to gain not a dime I hope my fellow dmaxers can learn from some of my errors and build a better dmax.
Alot of the problems on my truck where my call(rods for one, stock valves another which i do not regret)but alot of them where not.

Old puller

Thanks for sharing your experience Dale. I know I(and I'm sure a few others) appreciate how open you are being.:)

Great write-up and great tried and tested experience. Are you going to build again? kind of sounds like you've given it up. Hope not.

Thanks,
Rob

First and formost I would run Kennedy s tuning and injectors as his trucks are the top performers on the tracks along with the TTS trucks and he proved himself to me with his extensive knowledge of how to dyno a diesel truck, even if you do not like the numbers.The original EDMed injectors where flow tested and it was found that there was a large difference in flow from one stick to the next, cause was unknown so the only thing I can say is go with whats proven to work and right now extrude honed is it.


Thanks Dale

People are beginning to realize it's not about big numbers. Heck I could fudge my dyno to make the big numbers. It takes a lot more than people are running to make a legitimate 700RWHP IMHO and the big mid teens TQ numbers are hard to do also.

As for the GT42, that MAY be the answer, but it's awfully big and not very streetable based on my initial exposure. Should be good for pulling though.

P.S. Maybe I'll eventually prove myself wrong, but I haven't seen the LLY/LBZ VNT show me that it can move enough air for 500RWHP either...

I am not one to get into mud slinging this is a similar debate or transmission vendors. Everyone is trying push these motors farther and farther.. Unfortunately there are trials and errors, at great expense and inconvenience to the people involved. All that can be done is keep making improvement and learning from the unfortunate mistakes that everyone who tries to push into new territory experiences.

Great write up Dale, hopefully we can get it back up and running with some additional modifications, and help for Guy. Parts are still scattered around the country side. This year may be doubtful but hopefully it will be running for sure next year.
Looks like the consensus all around is the motor saw a lot of heat, and had some issues with fluid in places it did not belong.
The rods bent both ways perpendicular and parallel to the crank, there was not much life left on those things;-) When the pistons get done and get the heads back we’ll get the builder to hone the block and pressure check it hopefully we don’t run into anymore surprises.
Jon

Thanks for the no write up Dale. Wish you didnt have to learn all these lessons the hard way but its realy cool that you are trying to give your expereince so people can use a bit of your expereince and hopefully not have to go through what you did.

I would run SoCal heads but not with bronze silica guides as they can not seem to handle egts that pullers put down. My egts where high (2000 on the dyno)with the bad injectors in but the truck ran well until late october 2 months after the new sticks where instaled and lower egts and outside air temps.It makes me wonder if they had broke down and when the cold weather hit had contracted and almost grabbed the valves as when it was cold the truck ran like crap absolutly no power till it got warm(it was weird but that theory seems to make the most sense).It was also on the coldest morning that the motor let loose and broke the 4 valves (the motor never fired only turned over with the starter) so the valves in my opinion never moved.

Did you inspect the valves and guides for signs of grabbing and galling? The poor running is indicative of bent rods/reduced compression and many of the failed engines let go under light load...

Thanks for your right up Dale!:D
Answered the questions I had for you.

Why not decompress? The stock trucks are calibrated to run the stock compression with stock boost levels under 30psi. You are most likely 50-100% over those stock boost levels with an A5K depending on your setup.

Would you choose to coat the tops of the pistons?

probably would coat the pistons but I do not see the need to decompress with a mid range charger and I think overfueling is not needed, so why give up the power for a unneeded safety margine after you do rods.

Did you inspect the valves and guides for signs of grabbing and galling? The poor running is indicative of bent rods/reduced compression and many of the failed engines let go under light load...

Guy PMed me on this as he has inspected the heads I only had time to breeze thru it as i am leaving for the day, but more or less he says it was from the fuel/oil cantamination from the fubared inj install. he can elaborate.

Thanks Dale

People are beginning to realize it's not about big numbers. Heck I could fudge my dyno to make the big numbers. It takes a lot more than people are running to make a legitimate 700RWHP IMHO and the big mid teens TQ numbers are hard to do also.

As for the GT42, that MAY be the answer, but it's awfully big and not very streetable based on my initial exposure. Should be good for pulling though.

P.S. Maybe I'll eventually prove myself wrong, but I haven't seen the LLY/LBZ VNT show me that it can move enough air for 500RWHP either...

The A5000 is streetable and the GT42R isn't? What are you basing this on?

Casper is 100% streetable with a GT42 which surprised me. I fully expected lousy street manners and they didn't happen.

Oddly, it didn't even smoke much when staging and was just as easy to launch as a stock charger.

PS - Let me know when you run a CC/SB LBZ into the 12's at a track where the fastest "tuning only" LB7's are about 1/2 second slower. ;)

people have run 500hp on a stock turbo, more than twice the rated hp. for what ever reason it took it. still on the fence when it come to compression ratio. maybe lower on aftermarket pistons?

thanks for the write up dale

Dale

Sorry you learned the hard way but we all do sooner or later. The silicone bronze guides are good for gas motors but you do not want to run stock valves on them. To get the long life GM wanted they spent alot of time with people that know a lot more than we do to select the proper metals and coatings to make them work together. The PM stock guide with stock valves work the best and last. For a race only application a silicone bronze guide may have its place but they will not hold up in a street diesel motor. In gas motors it's not uncommon to have to do a valve job in 40 - 50 K miles with silicone bronze guides. The rods you took a chance with but someone had to just as Tazman did on the stock LBZ ones. Now everyone knows better. The Cometic head gaskets have been nothing but trouble and the stock ones work so stick with them. Tazman change out his Cometics back to stock and solved his sealing issues and he was running studs and still had issues with the Cometics. Compression ratio will all depend on what your looking for but I agree with you for a small charger with tuning stock LBZ numbers work great. As far as the valves hitting the pistons that's an engine assemble issue and should be taken up with the engine builder. The studs are a good idea for anyone who plans to run the power up and if your going to run real big numbers there are event better studs being made to handle the higher pressures. I just spent several hours with ARP here at our facility going over our needs and we measured the LB7, LLY and LBZ all out for new parts that were working on with them.

You ready to build another one now?

As much as i loved buying and using your parts Dale I wish I would've let you keep them or let someone else buy them lol. I too have had a very expensive experience and I'm done building. I'm just gonna have a reliable good tuned ecm truck. I'll let the big boys play with the high hp my wallet doesn't allow it.

There are many different types of Bronze alloys used in valve guides depending upon what guide manufacturer and price your willing to pay. All "Bronze" guides are not created equal. Again this was yet another source of disagreement between myself and my former business partner who wanted to save some money and use bronze valve guides made in India and is now paying the price for premature valve guide failure. :eek:

As a cylinder head manufacturer for the last 25 years I have had an opportunity to evaluate many different types of components, valves, seats, guides, springs etc.

The primary reason a powdered metal valve guide is used in a production enviroment is because of cost. Of course there are secondary and tertiary reasons relating to ease of machining etc.

The Bronze alloy guides I use have superior wear characteristics as well as lubricity. It is proprietary to my manufacturer and honestly I can't even tell you what alloy it is as they won't disclose it to me. I do know that over the years every time I was "forced" to deviate from it the results were never as good.

However, if any of you wish to use powdered metal guides, be sure to mention it at the time of order and we will gladly make the substitution. :D

I would run SoCal heads but not with bronze silica guides as they can not seem to handle egts that pullers put down. My egts where high (2000 on the dyno)with the bad injectors in but the truck ran well until late october 2 months after the new sticks where instaled and lower egts and outside air temps.It makes me wonder if they had broke down and when the cold weather hit had contracted and almost grabbed the valves as when it was cold the truck ran like crap absolutly no power till it got warm(it was weird but that theory seems to make the most sense).It was also on the coldest morning that the motor let loose and broke the 4 valves (the motor never fired only turned over with the starter) so the valves in my opinion never moved.


There are many different types of Bronze alloys used in valve guides depending upon what guide manufacturer and price your willing to pay. All "Bronze" guides are not created equal.

The Bronze alloy guides I use have superior wear characteristics as well as lubricity. It is proprietary to my manufacturer and honestly I can't even tell you what alloy it is as they won't disclose it to me.


Did Dales heads that you supplied have this proprietary material used?

You ready to build another one now?

you looking for a driver?

I am taking a few years off at this point as I am way to busy with our Kennel.

You ready to build another one now?
Dale is ready, don't let him BS you......Might have to talk about it later:beerchug:

First off thanks for the review.:)

but more or less he says it was from the fuel/oil cantamination from the fubared inj install. he can elaborate.

Did you install the injectors? If so what went wrong?
Thanks Kyle

Good information, keep it coming.

First off thanks for the review.:)



Did you install the injectors? If so what went wrong?
Thanks Kyle

No MA installed the injectors then had the balls to try and blame me for not tighting a nozzle, as I did install the brand new nozzles on the brand new injectors at MAs shop with Eric standing right next to me and I know for a fact they where all tight, It later came out that his sidekick at the time screwed up a return line during the install but I am still not sure if that is the truth, although it seems that was the straw that broke the camels back as that individual was fired.

No MA installed the injectors then had the balls to try and blame me for not tighting a nozzle, as I did install the brand new nozzles on the brand new injectors at MAs shop with Eric standing right next to me and I know for a fact they where all tight, It later came out that his sidekick at the time screwed up a return line during the install but I am still not sure if that is the truth, although it seems that was the straw that broke the camels back as that individual was fired.

For your info eric did not charge me any extra money for the fubared install. but my truck was out of commision for another week(missed superchevy here in Milan) and would soon be out permanetly for valves or rods no matter what happened.

No MA installed the injectors then had the balls to try and blame me for not tighting a nozzle, as I did install the brand new nozzles on the brand new injectors at MAs shop with Eric standing right next to me and I know for a fact they where all tight, It later came out that his sidekick at the time screwed up a return line during the install but I am still not sure if that is the truth, although it seems that was the straw that broke the camels back as that individual was fired.

Sidekick? don't you mean "brotha" ;)

Guys, you know the rules about this. This is a technical forum and that is what belongs here.

Tomac/BigD you guys sure like bashing all these guys that work on your trucks. why not pick up a wrench yourself sometime and try it. first TTS was the problem, now merchant, who will it be this year?

Tomac/BigD you guys sure like bashing all these guys that work on your trucks. why not pick up a wrench yourself sometime and try it. first TTS was the problem, now merchant, who will it be this year?

joeservo

Tomac/BigD you guys sure like bashing all these guys that work on your trucks. why not pick up a wrench yourself sometime and try it. first TTS was the problem, now merchant, who will it be this year?
Do you know how much this **** cost for guy's like us that dont do the work? If you spent the money we did and it wasn't done right wouldn't you be :mad: . What would be the point of paying sombody to hook thing's up wrong or sell you thing's that dont work correctly? I'm not talkin smack about anybody because I have had great experiences building my two trucks so far. I'm just sayin I feel the wallet pain of the guys that take it to the next level and have to pay sombody else to install it.

tomac has a history on raggin' on vendors that he does agree with. the point is why drag everyone in the mud. just say you are not happy and move on.

tomac has a history on raggin' on vendors that he does agree with. the point is why drag everyone in the mud. just say you are not happy and move on. i think its called freedom of speech :cool:

Did any of you guys actually read post #25 here. This ends now.

Dale, what injectors were you running before switching to the Kennedy's?

let them speak their minds man??

sad to hear your luck dale, i had heard bits and pieces, but your info good or bad should be told


Did any of you guys actually read post #25 here. This ends now.

let them speak their minds man??

sad to hear your luck dale, i had heard bits and pieces, but your info good or bad should be told I would have to agree!

This forum is for technical discussions. It is not for reviewing a vendor or member. We have a forum for that and if a member wants to post his experience, good or bad, with a vendor of ours it belongs in that forum. Not within a thread in a technical forum. We've already advised several members participating in this thread of the appropriate way to express their concerns with any vendor of ours - to this date they have chosen not to post those experiences where they belong. Therefore, we won't allow them where they don't belong.

Dale, thank you for sharing what you have. That's what this forum is about. The last few posts are not.

Sorry folks but some posts made after my warning on 03/10 have resulted in this thread being closed.