Well, I just got off the phone with my tranny guy. He said there was nothing left of my clutches, just like he figured. Put if this way it was limping with a stock tune. But the catch of it all is the ATS will warrenty the clutches, but they want to use there old style clutches that only lasted 8 months with a 500hp daily driver. Now they also said they would give me a "deal" on the new syle clutches. You would think since the knew the had a problem with that style clutch and thats why the developed and new and improved clutch, that they would replace the junk product with the new and improved. I am currently building a motor that should make atleast 750 plus hp. Now what do you guys think should I even waste my time with ats or just put the suncost clutches in like everbody else did. Trust me I would like to stick with ATS, but with stuff like this I think I might even go with a different brand twin cp3.

I would like to see ATS replace their "old" clutches w/ the "new" ones if you have the same problems like Kyle did. If they have a new design they must have found a problem with the old. Why go through the same situation again? Will ATS "cover" them again? I haven't seen the bad clutches yet but I did replace the sump filter & cut the old one it in half. There were enough chunks in the filter to realize that the problem was deeper then too much HP. You could tell the material was just flaking apart.

I was told by a ATS vendor that ATS clutches were made "out of house". Are the "new" ones made by a different vendor or is it just a different type of material or a new way to bond it to the plates?

The new ATS clutches dont seem to have the delam issue anymore.

At 750+ hp, it dont matter what it is, it will need refreshed every season.

Well, I just got off the phone with my tranny guy. He said there was nothing left of my clutches, just like he figured. Put if this way it was limping with a stock tune. But the catch of it all is the ATS will warrenty the clutches, but they want to use there old style clutches that only lasted 8 months with a 500hp daily driver. Now they also said they would give me a "deal" on the new syle clutches. You would think since the knew the had a problem with that style clutch and thats why the developed and new and improved clutch, that they would replace the junk product with the new and improved. I am currently building a motor that should make atleast 750 plus hp. Now what do you guys think should I even waste my time with ats or just put the suncost clutches in like everbody else did. Trust me I would like to stick with ATS, but with stuff like this I think I might even go with a different brand twin cp3.


Don't know if you have seen the clutches that came out of your tranny yet, but it wasn't a clutch problem. I will post pic's tomorrow when I get in the office and you can decide for yourself if those chunks of charcoal are worthy of ATS warranty!!! I'm sure it was a tranny issue and not a clutch issue, especially since every single clutch in the trans looked like it had come fresh off the BBQ!!!!

Sorry strissy, nothing against you, but you can't strong arm a company out of free stuff when you burn it up :rolleyes: .

Cheers,
Wade

I would like to see ATS replace their "old" clutches w/ the "new" ones if you have the same problems like Kyle did. If they have a new design they must have found a problem with the old. Why go through the same situation again? Will ATS "cover" them again? I haven't seen the bad clutches yet but I did replace the sump filter & cut the old one it in half. There were enough chunks in the filter to realize that the problem was deeper then too much HP. You could tell the material was just flaking apart.

I was told by a ATS vendor that ATS clutches were made "out of house". Are the "new" ones made by a different vendor or is it just a different type of material or a new way to bond it to the plates?

The clutches that had problems were taken care of right away, and without a doubt, if these clutches had fallen under the conditions of failure and delamination that accured in those clutches I would be more than happy to step up to the plate and send new clutches. But this I assure you is not the case, these clutches were slipped to the point of no return, and any GOOD tranny builder will laugh when they see what I was expected to warranty!!!

Hey Wade
What do you think caused the clutches to slip so badly? Are you blamming it on installation error? :confused:

The clutches that had problems were taken care of right away, and without a doubt, if these clutches had fallen under the conditions of failure and delamination that accured in those clutches I would be more than happy to step up to the plate and send new clutches. But this I assure you is not the case, these clutches were slipped to the point of no return, and any GOOD tranny builder will laugh when they see what I was expected to warranty!!!

Agreed.

If you play, you pay. Besides, clutches are just that, they are expendible, and have a finite lifespan in any transmission. Manual or Automatic.

Just my .02, but switching transmission camps will not solve clutch wear and tear.

Just so I make myself very clear here, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus as far as why these clutches are this burnt, but I can honestly say that any clutch that was this cooked due to slippage would have the same issue and would need to be replaced regardless.


If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I'll be more than happy to help out in anyway I can.

Cheers,
Wade

P.S. I still have some good one's left to post up.

Here are some C1's that have seen better days:

How many more voids like this are there? The red arrows are possibly areas where there are bubbles in the adhesive under the friction material.

If there are enough of these voids, they do two things:

Trap oil which gets hot and separates the disks.

Reduces the effective area.

How many more voids like this are there? The red arrows are possibly areas where there are bubbles in the adhesive under the friction material.

If there are enough of these voids, they do two things:

Trap oil which gets hot and separates the disks.

Reduces the effective area.

Are you saying that these clutches slipped this badly because of chunks of the clutch missing due to heat???

I had a similar problem with ATS clutches delaminating, long story short the first time it broke my input shaft, the second time the clutches went out I called suncoast, the new trans was at my door that week!! I have been happy ever since with my level V with considerably more power and abuse put through it than even close to the ATS equipment. Plowing snow, towing 30K behind the truck, sled pulling and screwing off on the street not a single problem or complaint.
When I was having problems, ATS told me that they would sell the products at a discount but they wouldn't replace them. I feel when you have problems like this it is time to change, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.. That is my personal experience with ATS's products and warranty information.
Here is the link to the problems I had:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31962
Then when I had problems with my convert the “old no good triple loc” I had to pay to have it refreshed out of pocket with in the two years because the problems with the converter had nothing to do wit ATS products failing… Then this story folds out to be almost two months to get my convert back meanwhile they sent me a new 5 star or whatever it is and told me I had to send that back and when they received it back they would finally send my converter back that they went through and I was lucky enought they had the enough parts left to go through my tripple loc or I would have to had it upgraded to there new version at even more expense to myself!! It seems whenever there is a problem with ATS’s equipment it doesn’t matter if there is a warranty on it they just want you to upgrade to the newer version at your expense..
I would vote for suncoast!!!
Jon

I had a similar problem with ATS clutches delaminating, long story short the first time it broke my input shaft, the second time the clutches went out I called suncoast, the new trans was at my door that week!! I have been happy ever since with my level V with considerably more power and abuse put through it than even close to the ATS equipment. Plowing snow, towing 30K behind the truck, sled pulling and screwing off on the street not a single problem or complaint.
When I was having problems, ATS told me that they would sell the products at a discount but they wouldn't replace them. I feel when you have problems like this it is time to change, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.. That is my personal experience with ATS's products and warranty information.
Here is the link to the problems I had:
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31962
Then when I had problems with my convert the “old no good triple loc” I had to pay to have it refreshed out of pocket with in the two years because the problems with the converter had nothing to do wit ATS products failing… Then this story folds out to be almost two months to get my convert back meanwhile they sent me a new 5 star or whatever it is and told me I had to send that back and when they received it back they would finally send my converter back that they went through and I was lucky enought they had the enough parts left to go through my tripple loc or I would have to had it upgraded to there new version at even more expense to myself!! It seems whenever there is a problem with ATS’s equipment it doesn’t matter if there is a warranty on it they just want you to upgrade to the newer version at your expense..
I would vote for suncoast!!!
Jon

Jon, that situation was a little before my time here. But there have been instances where there have been issue's with delamination, I'm not trying to hide that fact. But in this situation, the clutches didn't just fall off the plate, these things were baked, BBQ'd, Roasted, Burnt, Fried, Torched, flame broiled, so there is clearly nothing wrong with the bonding, these things held in there through some tremendous slippage and heat!!

I'll say it one more time, if these clutches had just peeled off the plate, I would step up to the plate, but these things were run through a full season and for whatever reason were slipped very severly and fried. Now they need to be replaced, which is not uncommon in a race truck after a full season of 750+HP passes. I'm not trying to pass the buck on the customer or the builder here, but these clutches shown in the pictures are cooked to the core, sorry, I'm not going to replace these clutches in this situation for free.

I have and will continue to take care of anyone that has a legitimate warranty issue, but we didn't build this trans or drive the truck and I can't take credit for the clutch slippage, that's something that the customer and the builder are going to have to work out.


Cheers,
Wade

Are you saying that these clutches slipped this badly because of chunks of the clutch missing due to heat???

No. Get that disk, put it on a surface plate with a dial indicator. Measure those pockets where the arrows are.

Those indentions are probably where there was a bubble in the adhesive. Too many, and you reduce the "grip" area and allow trapped oil.

I saw this years ago with motorcycle clutches which are of identical design.

So basicly ATS transmissions don't really last any longer between "freshen ups" than say TTS or suncoast.
But cost about three times as much.:wtf: I Geuss I made a smart decision going with TTS, Cost me about $1900 "installed myself". It doesnt really come with much of a warranty, but it doesnt sound like ATS does either.):h

Just wondering if (ATS) would have assembled this transmission in question, would he be treated any differently?
In my case I was not I had ATS do the work and that carried no weight when I had a problem. I don't see how (ATS) handled this any differently. I was told my problems and failures would not be warranted and the truck was running programming on a stock charger as stated before any modifications where done in ATS's shop.
I see and understand that these clutches in question now are damaged in a different way but the end result is I received the same treatment (ie) paid for all the components out of pocket to fix the transmission in my case, and I had ATS install the components to begin with.
What would it take for ATS to warranty a transmission with damage from high horse power trucks for example 475 rwhp and up?? If the transmission described would be warranted today would that still carry weight a year down the road if and when ATS comes out with products, or would the customer be told that they would have to pay to upgrade to something new because ATS does not use those components anymore??
Jon

So basicly ATS transmissions don't really last any longer between "freshen ups" than say TTS or suncoast.
But cost about three times as much.:wtf: I Geuss I made a smart decision going with TTS, Cost me about $1900 "installed myself". It doesnt really come with much of a warranty, but it doesnt sound like ATS does either.):h

Well you might wanna check your facts there before posting. This was NOT an ATS transmission. Just so you know :thumb:

Just wondering if (ATS) would have assembled this transmission in question, would he be treated any differently?
In my case I was not I had ATS do the work and that carried no weight when I had a problem. I don't see how (ATS) handled this any differently. I was told my problems and failures would not be warranted and the truck was running programming on a stock charger as stated before any modifications where done in ATS's shop.
I see and understand that these clutches in question now are damaged in a different way but the end result is I received the same treatment (ie) paid for all the components out of pocket to fix the transmission in my case, and I had ATS install the components to begin with.
What would it take for ATS to warranty a transmission with damage from high horse power trucks for example 475 rwhp and up?? If the transmission described would be warranted today would that still carry weight a year down the road if and when ATS comes out with products, or would the customer be told that they would have to pay to upgrade to something new because ATS does not use those components anymore??
Jon


Jon, I can't say how I would have handled your situation, I haven't seen pictures of you clutches and I wasn't involved in your warranty. But Mike is an extremely knowledgeable tech and given I wasn't there, I would have to assume that the decision that Mike made was the right one for the situation.

And in a warranty situation such as this, there would be no cost for upgrading parts or clutches if it was caused by assembly error or parts failure.

Wasn't the transmission that big jon00 had an ATS?:rolleyes:
Oh well he has a good one now.:thumb:

No. Get that disk, put it on a surface plate with a dial indicator. Measure those pockets where the arrows are.

Those indentions are probably where there was a bubble in the adhesive. Too many, and you reduce the "grip" area and allow trapped oil.

I saw this years ago with motorcycle clutches which are of identical design.

Why are the C2 borg Warner clutches smoked to the point that there are pieces missing. Those even have venting grooves in them, that's were things are not adding up. Every clutch in that trans, ours or not was smoked.

Just wondering if (ATS) would have assembled this transmission in question, would he be treated any differently? Jon

I can tell you from experience that if ATS had assembled the transmission that they probably would have fully warrentied it after about 4 months of phone calls with no returned calls. (this was before wade, I hope things have changed)

What would cause the tranny to slip the clutches like this.

Wade,
Hold up one second, this truck was a 500hp at most daily driver. Until recently when I pulled the the motor, after the tranny was smoked. I am planning on it being 750 plus and was wondering if your clutches would hold that thats all killer calm down.
Kyle (I hope ATS products are better than there attitude)

ATS would never be an option for me, I watched another driver that had an ats built trans get jerked around many times. After about 18mo of crap, sitting w/ a broke truck, and waiting days for call backs he ended up having someone else do the trans.

Wade,
Hold up one second, this truck was a 500hp at most daily driver. Until recently when I pulled the the motor, after the tranny was smoked. I am planning on it being 750 plus and was wondering if your clutches would hold that thats all killer calm down.
Kyle (I hope ATS products are better than there attitude)

I have no attitude Kyle :cool: , I'm just calling it like I see it. I get a call from your builder saying that he had some smoked clutches and was looking for some warranty, I told him to send me some pictures and I would see what I could do. After receiving these pictures I called him back and told him that the clutches were smoked and I would be willing to cut him a break on getting your tranny back up and running. You then post up about jumping ship with ATS because of delam's........How would you like me to respond?? :confuzeld

Anyhoo, after being told that the tranny was run into the ground after the builder stating a concern to the customer when it was limping and throwing codes, I see no reason ATS should have been brought into this :Nonono: . This is between you and your builder, not me or ATS.

So like I said earlier Kyle, no hard feelings :hug: , you know the story, if you have anything to add feel free to post it up, I'm always willing to help!! :thumb:


Cheers,
Wade

ATS would never be an option for me, I watched another driver that had an ats built trans get jerked around many times. After about 18mo of crap, sitting w/ a broke truck, and waiting days for call backs he ended up having someone else do the trans.

I don't think you'll have any issue's with needing a trans with all the banks stuff you have on the truck!!! ):h ):h

:joke:

Why don't you post a name instead of a story, I would like to look into this further if he had this many problems, something needs to be addressed.

Wade,
I'm not asking for much. Just you to stand behind your product and warrenty it like you said you would when I purchased it. It sounds to me like I am not the only one with this problem. Look obviously you had a problem with your clutches so why not be a man and stand up for what you have done wrong and replace my clutches. I have no problem with you or your product if you stand behind it. Now when you tell me its my problem when there are many others that are having the same problem thats when I get ticked. So what are you saying I should spend 5k on a transmission that can hold a hypertech or did I buy a trans that will hold 500hp.
Kyle

Figure out why the trans slipped in the first place, fix that and there should be no problems in the future. Could the converter have gone bad? Did the clutches fall apart? Was there a build issue? We need to get this figured out so we can move forward.

Was this or was this not an ATS trans? From reading it sounds like it was not an ATS trans, but rather a build that used ATS clutches.

I'm a bit confused, so I'm going to try to sum things up for my own benefit...

BigStriss: This is not actually an ATS built transmission, right? In other words, they sent you clutches back in the day, and you built it yourself?

If so, then IOWA LLY is comparing apples to oranges.

big jon00: Are you actually implying that a delam not only could be responsible for but actually was responsible for a broken input shaft??? Do you have ANY idea how ridiculous that is? Unless you got the thing so hot for so long that you actually welded the disks together from the heat, it couldn't happen. I'd be willing to bet your tuning starts with the letters "EFI" & somebody was playing with TCM tuning that had no business doing so... And it sounds to me like you're actually complaining because they sent you a converter to get you by until yours was done...?

[quote=bobo;1626297;]
Knowing the trans had other problems before this, why pull it out now? Run it until it breaks. It should not need a refresh this soon anyway.
quote]


So if I understand this correctly, the tranny was slipping and having problems, someone said screw it, run it anyway, Kyle runs 11's on a slipping and screwed up trans (Which I might add, we didn't build), you finally pull it apart after running it into the dirt, and then I'm not a man for replacing extra crispy clutches???

My cell is in my sig if you would like to discuss this further. Bob, you already have it.

Good night,
Wade

This was not an ATS trans, but used all ATS parts and was built by a local guy that has done a dozen of these builds.

If ATS built this trans & it failed under warranty it's ATS's bill Period
If someone else built this with ATS parts then it is not ATS's warranty.Period
ATS has no control when someone else builds the trans with ATS parts.Period.

If ATS built this trans & it failed under warranty it's ATS's bill Period
If someone else built this with ATS parts then it is not ATS's warranty.Period
ATS has no control when someone else builds the trans with ATS parts.Period.

well said

If ATS built this trans & it failed under warranty it's ATS's bill Period
If someone else built this with ATS parts then it is not ATS's warranty.Period
ATS has no control when someone else builds the trans with ATS parts.Period.

ATS has control over the quality of product they ship.

If the discs are not defective, then ATS should do nothing.

If the discs are defective, then ATS should replace or refund them.

There is no way realistic way an installer can determine if the adhesive was applied correctly when the discs were made.

If this is indeed a case of inadequate adhesion, and these were purchased after July 2005, then ATS really needs to step up. July 2005 was when I notified them of the problem and sent them the discs with the characteristic "dimples" in them where the adhesive had severe bubbles. They had failed nearly immediately at 425rwhp.

I do not believe all the discs have this problem, but I also know I wasn't the only one.

If the discs were known defective I'd give you this one but as I can see(onlt from pictures) they do not look like the weak link that broke the chain.
In the rebuilding world of transmissions you will not often get a supplier to back there parts unless you can prove the part was the first thing to fail. & if think your going to do that, well good luck.

My perf parts supplier has an ATS trans in his own trk. He has sold a few, had issues w/ only one. He said ATS bent over backwards to make it right with him and the customer. This guy would not lie to sell something if you beat him with a stick, his word is what I'll go by in this situation. This was an ATS built unit not a unit thrown together w ATS parts.

If the discs were known defective I'd give you this one but as I can see(onlt from pictures) they do not look like the weak link that broke the chain.
In the rebuilding world of transmissions you will not often get a supplier to back there parts unless you can prove the part was the first thing to fail. & if think your going to do that, well good luck.


So if there is almost no chance of them standing behind it, why do they offer a warrenty? They might as well come out and say "We will not stand behind our product nor will we honor our warrenty no matter what, so we are not going to offer one. That way we can avoid getting drug the mud publically about once a month."

It seems like this always arises around ATS. Why does Suncoast not ever have these big public pissing matches between disgruntled customers and themselves?

DMAXBOB

So if there is almost no chance of them standing behind it, why do they offer a warrenty? They might as well come out and say "We will not stand behind our product nor will we honor our warrenty no matter what, so we are not going to offer one. That way we can avoid getting drug the mud publically about once a month."

It seems like this always arises around ATS. Why does Suncoast not ever have these big public pissing matches between disgruntled customers and themselves?

DMAXBOB


ATS has stood behind their products for me, even when they proved to me it was my fault. I'd like to see BigStriss try the new ATS clutches even if he has to pay for them. If they are anything similar to their older style clutches/adhesive, they are virtually indestructible.

Suncoast clutches burn just like any other clutch. I know a few trans builders that have seen their fair shake of them, but they fix them and work with Suncoast behind closed doors. We are dealing with some 3rd party trans builds with these ATS parts and that could be part of the reason you are reading about this.

We need to figure out why the trans slipped in the first place. Once that is found, the problem has to be fixed so this thing can stand the abuse of 700+HP. ATS parts will hold it just as well as Suncoast or any other brand of clutch if it is built and maintained properly.

To accurately determine the root cause of the failure the trans should have been pulled immediately once a problem was found. By waiting until the truck limped on the stock tune the clutches have seen so much abuse that it is very difficult to diagnose the root cause. I think ATS is being very realistic here.

Bobo,
I understand every clutch will wear out. My statemment was more towards this mess that was started here. People can say whatever they want about ATS being a great company etc, but actions speak louder than words. No other company gets takin' through the ringer as frequently as they do and I refuse to think that everyone who post anti-ATS info has it in for them. I know that many people who have great sucess with the ATS trans/ components and swear by it and the great service they recieve. But you cannot over look stuff like the various threads that get started about problems with them and their often times inability or unwillingness to deal with him.

DMAXBOB

I don't think you'll have any issue's with needing a trans with all the banks stuff you have on the truck!!! ):h ):h

:joke:

Why don't you post a name instead of a story, I would like to look into this further if he had this many problems, something needs to be addressed.

What does Banks have anything to do with this, I chose a company that I felt offered a product with out bugs or glitches and would offer me what I wanted. I am not out to make a "race" truck. My truck works for a living. As far as a name for the driver, why would I post someones name on a public forum, thats just wrong. He does drive a 99 Dodge Dually that is white and likely has 500k on it about now. But again that does not matter, BECAUSE HE IS NOT A CUSTOMER OF YOURS ANYMORE!!

DieselSpeed:
big jon00: Are you actually implying that a delam not only could be responsible for but actually was responsible for a broken input shaft??? Do you have ANY idea how ridiculous that is? Unless you got the thing so hot for so long that you actually welded the disks together from the heat, it couldn't happen. I'd be willing to bet your tuning starts with the letters "EFI" & somebody was playing with TCM tuning that had no business doing so... And it sounds to me like you're actually complaining because they sent you a converter to get you by until yours was done...?[/quote]




The information that I listed is a problem I had with ATS, this thread was started as question about ATS warranty information and where to jump ship or not. I shared my personal experience that was similar to issue originally listed. I know I was not very happy with the customer service I have received. It sounds like things have or are turning around in that department. I glad that these issues are being worked out by ATS.

As far as the input shaft braking, and talking with Mike L the clutches would not cause this problem that seems like a stretch.. The reason there is a friction and steel in the clutches is to avoid too much shock. When the clutches delaminate to the point of mine the steel on steel does not give. When this truck dynoed at 474 rwhp two days of getting the truck back together (from the broken input shaft) at K&S Dyno Day in northern WI, doing a search on here (diesel place)you should be able to even find the numbers I believe Kennedy put down 510’ish that year to win it.

Getting into dates, Late in August of 2004 ATS did the triple loc upgrade on my trans. I called in several times inquiring about harsh neck snapping shifts, This truck was running TTS Extreme with a stock charger. With little to no help to address the issues I was having. The truck may have towed a four place snowmobile trailer a couple of time from the time of install to failure. There were NO truck pulls in WI from November to Mid May.

As far as the EFI Live being used to tune the truck that is completely REDICTULOUS!! Before trying to pass the blame onto me… You should know when these products have been released, So I guess everyone in the Duramax world had EFI live and was tuning transmissions and motor prior to May of 2005. Doing a quick search on here will show the oldest post to deal with EFI live is approximately October of 2005.

The side note on ATS sending me a converter to use?? I know ATS is making strives, but they are not going to send you a brand new converter to used for the month+ it took them to repair mine. Besides the fact why would I want to drop my tranny an additional time to swap converters? The experience I had , I sent in my converter to have it repaired they sent me a brand new (there mistake) and WOULD NOT ship mine back to me until they received the new one back. UPS shipping time is 4 or 5 days to and from due the math there is another 8-10 days minimum in shipping. Than taking an additional week to ship out my reconditioned converter; after making some phone calls. So, now you’re looking at almost 15 additional days from the time of receiving the new MISTAKEN converter.

As far as the information that I post on this forum I do my best to relay it completely and accurately to the best of my knowledge. I share any and all research I find from talking with people on here I consider to highly knowledgeable and respected in their specialty fields, and personal experience to help out the members in here. A special thanks to all the help and information that I have received from Mike L, the few times of talking to Steve @ TTS, Mark at Huckstorf, John, @Kennedy diesel, Guy Trippin, and all the information and help Pat @ McRat has given with EFI Live which I started working with in late July or August of 2006 and dual fuelers, Eric @ Merchant , Thanks to SunCoast, Bobo for shooting the breeze on numerous accounts, and ATS with mixed results wish them the best of luck and hope there customer service continues to improve. I am sure there are people I have missed on here but that just a handful.

I am not looking for a confrontation but I will defend my self when acquisitions are made that problems are my own fault. I am here to share information learned and experienced with others and in most cases just enjoy reading and learning as much as possible.

What does Banks have anything to do with this, I chose a company that I felt offered a product with out bugs or glitches and would offer me what I wanted. I am not out to make a "race" truck. My truck works for a living. As far as a name for the driver, why would I post someones name on a public forum, thats just wrong. He does drive a 99 Dodge Dually that is white and likely has 500k on it about now. But again that does not matter, BECAUSE HE IS NOT A CUSTOMER OF YOURS ANYMORE!!

Actually it does matter Haulin-RV, since your posting stories with no way for me to combat them, all they are is hearsay and bashing. If your not willing to post up a name so I can defend myself or ATS, there is no reason your previous post should stay up there.

It would be kind like me telling you, a friend of mine told me that your a liar and a cheat, and your a good for nothing nobody that stole a RV from him. I give you no name, and no ability to tell me what happened in that situation.

Thanks for your input though!!

DieselSpeed:
big jon00: Are you actually implying that a delam not only could be responsible for but actually was responsible for a broken input shaft??? Do you have ANY idea how ridiculous that is? Unless you got the thing so hot for so long that you actually welded the disks together from the heat, it couldn't happen. I'd be willing to bet your tuning starts with the letters "EFI" & somebody was playing with TCM tuning that had no business doing so... And it sounds to me like you're actually complaining because they sent you a converter to get you by until yours was done...?




The information that I listed is a problem I had with ATS, this thread was started as question about ATS warranty information and where to jump ship or not. I shared my personal experience that was similar to issue originally listed. I know I was not very happy with the customer service I have received. It sounds like things have or are turning around in that department. I glad that these issues are being worked out by ATS.

As far as the input shaft braking, and talking with Mike L the clutches would not cause this problem that seems like a stretch.. The reason there is a friction and steel in the clutches is to avoid too much shock. When the clutches delaminate to the point of mine the steel on steel does not give. When this truck dynoed at 474 rwhp two days of getting the truck back together (from the broken input shaft) at K&S Dyno Day in northern WI, doing a search on here (diesel place)you should be able to even find the numbers I believe Kennedy put down 510’ish that year to win it.

Getting into dates, Late in August of 2004 ATS did the triple loc upgrade on my trans. I called in several times inquiring about harsh neck snapping shifts, This truck was running TTS Extreme with a stock charger. With little to no help to address the issues I was having. The truck may have towed a four place snowmobile trailer a couple of time from the time of install to failure. There were NO truck pulls in WI from November to Mid May.

As far as the EFI Live being used to tune the truck that is completely REDICTULOUS!! Before trying to pass the blame onto me… You should know when these products have been released, So I guess everyone in the Duramax world had EFI live and was tuning transmissions and motor prior to May of 2005. Doing a quick search on here will show the oldest post to deal with EFI live is approximately October of 2005.

The side note on ATS sending me a converter to use?? I know ATS is making strives, but they are not going to send you a brand new converter to used for the month+ it took them to repair mine. Besides the fact why would I want to drop my tranny an additional time to swap converters? The experience I had , I sent in my converter to have it repaired they sent me a brand new (there mistake) and WOULD NOT ship mine back to me until they received the new one back. UPS shipping time is 4 or 5 days to and from due the math there is another 8-10 days minimum in shipping. Than taking an additional week to ship out my reconditioned converter; after making some phone calls. So, now you’re looking at almost 15 additional days from the time of receiving the new MISTAKEN converter.

As far as the information that I post on this forum I do my best to relay it completely and accurately to the best of my knowledge. I share any and all research I find from talking with people on here I consider to highly knowledgeable and respected in their specialty fields, and personal experience to help out the members in here. A special thanks to all the help and information that I have received from Mike L, the few times of talking to Steve @ TTS, Mark at Huckstorf, John, @Kennedy diesel, Guy Trippin, and all the information and help Pat @ McRat has given with EFI Live which I started working with in late July or August of 2006 and dual fuelers, Eric @ Merchant , Thanks to SunCoast, Bobo for shooting the breeze on numerous accounts, and ATS with mixed results wish them the best of luck and hope there customer service continues to improve. I am sure there are people I have missed on here but that just a handful.

I am not looking for a confrontation but I will defend my self when acquisitions are made that problems are my own fault. I am here to share information learned and experienced with others and in most cases just enjoy reading and learning as much as possible.[/quote]

Jon00, unfortunately I don't know exactly what happened in your situation, and I know that things can be extremely frustrating in times when your truck is down. And I'm in no way saying that what happened in your situation was right or wrong. But I can tell you that I do my best to get people back on the road when things go wrong. I did look at your pictures and you had a legitimate "Delam", a perfect example of what I've been talking about with a select few of our old clutches comming apart.

I wish I could change things in the past and make things right, but unfortunately I can't. But if you ever need anything in the future, feel free to give me a call, I'm open ears.

Thanks Wade,
I'll keep you guys in mind in my future projects and builds, I know how far a little negative feedback can go in comparison to all the positive. I know a couple guys on here that we pull with in the badger class that are happy with ATS's Transmission and products that are making or should be in the 700'ish range this coming year, should be a good test. They had no problems at the 500'ish mark last year and couple high h.p. pulls as well!!
Jon

Was this transmission a Stage I, Stage II, or Exterme Assembly ? Was this transmission purple in color ? If so it would be taken care of no matter what your horse power is. If it isn't and was built by another business the matter of warranty should be between the builder and his suppiler for parts. If you want a warranty ATS has several differnt upgrade stages to fit your needs, and have a 150,000 mile, 3-year warranty, best in the business. We do in house Allison upgrades using ATS parts and stand behind our work and ATS parts. If one of our customers has a problem we help them and if we feel that there is probable cause to assume that we have faulty parts we contact the supplier and see if they will help us out. If there is an issue ATS will help us out no questions asked parts in the mail. A builder that R and R's a transmission on a regular basis will know if its faulty parts. This is not just an opinion from a ATS dealer, would say this in any case.

Wade,

Thanks for showing how crappy ATS can be. My story is true, and I think everyone that reads this thread knows it would not be right to just post someones name on a public forum. If you want to make it personal by attacking me thats fine. Maybe I will just go to every other forum and post a link to this thread so they all can read how well you handle yourself and how well you represent ATS.

You said the c2 BW clutches were crispy...what did the c5s look like?

You said the c2 BW clutches were crispy...what did the c5s look like?

C5's were cherry from what I was told.

There are no "OLD" clutches just sitting around on the shelf only to be sent out for warranty claims, so i'm not sure were you got they would replace them with "old" and charge for new.

The biggest issue here is that the clutches did not FAIL. It would not have mattered if they were Borg Warner, Alto(suncoast), ATS, or they were manufactured by mcrat racing and were completely flawless. THEY SLIPED AND BURNT.
Bob said it more than once:
Figure out why the trans slipped in the first place

Something happened:, you didn't let it adapt to the power level, a valve stuck, low line pressure, a restriction, who knows something, it has nothing to do with the clutch manufacture.

When ATS had problems with clutches delaming a long time ago they replaced them hands down, weather they built it or the customer built it.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS, ATS should not have to do anything here, but I have a feeling they would have sold you replacement clutches at a very good price to help you out, so that after you figure out what was causing the slipping you would have a new transmission setup.

I don't understand what benefit posting crap like this would have to anyone at all. Its been made obvious that the ATS clutches DIDN'T FAIL.

Very well put:)

Exactly what was in the trans?? If you dont mind me asking.

hey ats has awesome customer service, plenty of dper's can't argue with that. I had a trans with old clutchs there stage 2 complete with 5-star tq converter. long story short it was an electrical problem that smoked the clutches and it was in the external harness. Ats rebulit the trans and sent me on my way!!
wade it a good guy and will bend over backwards to make things right

"Wade,

Thanks for showing how crappy ATS can be. My story is true, and I think everyone that reads this thread knows it would not be right to just post someones name on a public forum. If you want to make it personal by attacking me thats fine. Maybe I will just go to every other forum and post a link to this thread so they all can read how well you handle yourself and how well you represent ATS."


I would have to believe haulin-rv. I have read alot of his post & he seams like a stand up guy. Even though you are a banks guy haulin-rv. (jk):)


Maybe the ATS guy is right, but you sure came across ****y. Maybe it is not just ATS. Maybe it just you or you just had a bad day. I have a bad feeling about ATS just by your additude towards this customer in this burn disk case.

I agree with you crashnburn. This is not the first time a problem like this has been handled by Wade. Even if it's not their fault, I think they would be money ahead if they fixed the "little" problems. I'm not far from having my tranny money to handle the big tunes. I know where my money is going!

I may have missed this somewhere in this thread but was this trans built by ATS or not.

:driver:

I may have missed this somewhere in this thread but was this trans built by ATS or not.

No. the trans was built by a third party.

I agree with you crashnburn. This is not the first time a problem like this has been handled by Wade. Even if it's not their fault, I think they would be money ahead if they fixed the "little" problems. I'm not far from having my tranny money to handle the big tunes. I know where my money is going!

I can see ATS's point very well. As a business owner myself you can't bend over and take customers abuse/stupidity whichever was the case here out of your pocket or you will be standing in the cheese line. I would be pissed and so would you if someone was making accusations (that is all they are until backed by fact) about my products w/out producing facts. Who's to say that trans wasn't built by a 3rd party as well. If so that was ATS's fault about as much as it was mine. Everyone needs to walk a mile in Wade's shoes and see if you would take these clutches out of your pocket or sit back and take this clubbing w/o speaking up. IMO very few of us would.

About jumping ship, that's your choice. Don't know how long the transmission has been in use, or the level of punishment it has received. Nothing mechanical lasts forever --looking at the pictures I'd say the cluches have been slipping for quite some time.

We don't know anything else about the transmission other than it was built using ATS clutches--was it an ATS kit that included pump and VB mods, Co-pilot, etc, or just the clutches?

Transmissions used in race or other high abuse situations require periodic maintenance, by this I mean teardown and inspection and replacement of suspect parts.

Exactly whose to blame or who will accept blame, I don't think we'll ever know.

The tile of this thread is not "Who hates ATS?" It is asking if he should try a different brand of clutch. Pointing fingers and *****ing about peoples attitudes will not get us anywhere. Wade has never had a bad attitude on the phone when I've talked to him, so please don't take his posts out of context. He has and always is more than willing to help out. How about we figure out why this trans slipped so it can go back together and not slip anymore? Then we will be getting somewhere.

99.0% or more of clutch failures are cause one way or another by application pressure. Could be line pressure issue or low on fluid or cross leak in VB or gasket area. or 1000 other reasons.
From the pictures I see theses things got burnt, they did not fall apart without heat.
ATS does not owe anyone anything in this case IMO.

x2

X3

If ats won't warrenty it, why won't his builder? If i was the builder i would warrenty it myself out of my buisnesses pocket, so as to not lose a customer, wether or not he wannted ats-suncoast-alto- or borg warner goin back in, would be up to him. And when i had my trans built i went over every scenario possible with my builder to make sure that if i break it, they bought it, lol.

"Wade,

Thanks for showing how crappy ATS can be. My story is true, and I think everyone that reads this thread knows it would not be right to just post someones name on a public forum. If you want to make it personal by attacking me thats fine. Maybe I will just go to every other forum and post a link to this thread so they all can read how well you handle yourself and how well you represent ATS."


I would have to believe haulin-rv. I have read alot of his post & he seams like a stand up guy. Even though you are a banks guy haulin-rv. (jk):)


Maybe the ATS guy is right, but you sure came across ****y. Maybe it is not just ATS. Maybe it just you or you just had a bad day. I have a bad feeling about ATS just by your additude towards this customer in this burn disk case.

I cannot see why anyone is trying to put ATS at fault here. Yes there was a delaminating issue a while back and these were all warrantied, but these clutches look like **** and do not deserve to be warrantied. Also this is NOT an ATS trans so why should ATS warranty it. I bet suncoast wont warranty these clutches so why dont you ***** them out?? If someone really has a problem with ATS lets hear names and a full story not some story about this guy in a white truck.

1FastMax - The builder didn't make the clutches--if the transmission was correctly assembled and upgrades made as specified why should "he" be responsible?

The fact that one buys a built transmission or its kit form doesn't make it bulletproof. A lot more than clutches come into play with a transmission failure, engine tuning, tire size, gear ratio, etc.--I think "we" expect too much from transmissions. Sometimes the driver has to assume responsibility.

I didnt say he did, i'm just sayin someday he may need another trans built and if he wants a loyal customer to help him out a lil.

Here is what I see when I read this thread. The clutchs are fired. Something went wrong and caused that. Until I new what really happend I would not worry about which ones to use next time. The Allison is a marvel IMHO. It can be built to handle monster power. But things fail. Simply put you play you pay like Juicy said. There are a lot of things that can go wrong in the trans.
Figure out what happened or your going to really be wasting money!:o:

I see have seen ATS trannies work awesome and some fail. Same as Suncoast and every other builder. Thats part of high performance.

What one swears by others swear at. Nothing new.

What one swears by others swear at. Nothing new.
That says it all, great quote.

I can see ATS's point very well. As a business owner myself you can't bend over and take customers abuse/stupidity whichever was the case here out of your pocket or you will be standing in the cheese line. I would be pissed and so would you if someone was making accusations (that is all they are until backed by fact) about my products w/out producing facts. Who's to say that trans wasn't built by a 3rd party as well. If so that was ATS's fault about as much as it was mine. Everyone needs to walk a mile in Wade's shoes and see if you would take these clutches out of your pocket or sit back and take this clubbing w/o speaking up. IMO very few of us would.

I can see ATS's point too. I am not saying they are at fault. I deal with the same kind of things every day. What I was saying was if some of these small problems (clutches for instance) were taken care in a different matter they would probably have more business. I know of two tranny's ATS did not get due to threads like this one. Those are just the ones I know of. Maybe they are the only two. Who knows? I'm sure the profit from two tranny's will more thean cover some clutches.

I'm sure ATS has some good products and a lot of happy customers. Just too many negative things being said for them to get my money.

I can see ATS's point too. I am not saying they are at fault. I deal with the same kind of things every day. What I was saying was if some of these small problems (clutches for instance) were taken care in a different matter they would probably have more business. I know of two tranny's ATS did not get due to threads like this one. Those are just the ones I know of. Maybe they are the only two. Who knows? I'm sure the profit from two tranny's will more thean cover some clutches.

I'm sure ATS has some good products and a lot of happy customers. Just too many negative things being said for them to get my money.

I too can see that point, but where does the line finally get drawn?? There has to be a point where they say enough is enough such as here

Some customers would not be happy no matter what you did for them.
If you think your going to make them all happy your going to be broke!!!!!!!!!!
Sometimes you gotta say no.
I'd love to build trannys with a lifetime warranty but there would be no food on the table at the end of the day.

haulin-rv, please show me what post you are taking offense to? i completely understand what he(wade) is trying to say/state. there are also a lot of people "coming out of the wood work" and saying things. haulin, is there any way YOU can prove what your saying?

i seem to remember a thread similar to this a while back, very similar. all could of been handled if a simple phone call was made.

whats the moral of this story, dont make accusations when you cant prove it, and make some phone calls

Wade,

Thanks for showing how crappy ATS can be. My story is true, and I think everyone that reads this thread knows it would not be right to just post someones name on a public forum. If you want to make it personal by attacking me thats fine. Maybe I will just go to every other forum and post a link to this thread so they all can read how well you handle yourself and how well you represent ATS.


Dude take a chill pill;)
Wade is a Great guy and is NOT making fun of you in anyway...When he said the stuff about the banks setup on YOUR truck he was just joking:D

Well after Reading this Thread i have made my tranny decision
Its going to have Purple parts inside for sure:)

I mean seriously guys....everyones seen the pictures and its obvious that there is a problem Other than the ATS clutches
Strissy i say figure out the problem and When the problem is fixed throw some ATS or any brand you choose clutches back in it and Let her Eat:)

i dont think ATS should have to warranty this at all
first off its not a assembled tranny from ats
i think the original builder should be taking up the slack for this one

i dont think ATS should have to warranty this at all
first off its not a assembled tranny from ats
i think the original builder should be taking up the slack for this one
:agreed:

If a transmission isn't assembled by ats or suncoast for that matter they won't normally warranty the clutchs, will they?

If a transmission isn't assembled by ats or suncoast for that matter they won't normally warranty the clutchs, will they?
Don't know if they normally do but they should not.

NOT TO BE OFFENSIVE BUT:

If you buy an assembled transmission (ATS, Suncoast, or whoever) with a warranty, you're covered.:) I'm sure the parts in a kit aren't covered by warranty, nor should they be, that's why kits are less expensive you're not paying for a warranty.

You might be able to work something out if you deal with a vendor directly, but I'm sure you won't get your desired result by posting on a public forum.

MY.02

First off I would like to say some of you guys are on the right path here. My clutches probably shouldnt have been warrentied, but wade and I talked and worked something out. Now I would strongly stress just calling wade and talking to him before you bad mouth him because in all honsty he is a really good guy. He understand people getting pi$$ed and he may not warrenty your stuff but he will work hard to get you back rolling as cheap as he can. Like he said if he warrentied everything that came in he would be looking for a new job. So just give the guy a call he will work with you the best he can.
Kyle

Now I would strongly stress just calling wade and talking to him before you bad mouth him because in all honsty he is a really good guy. So just give the guy a call he will work with you the best he can.
Kyle
I also think Wade is a good guy and easy to work with. ATS is lucky to have him.

Now you've done it Kyle.......You've gone and ruined my reputation as the local A-hole!!!! :D

Anyway, you find out real quick that people aren't so bad when you call and talk to them. Your situation was a bad one for a customer to go through, and I understand why you were upset, but not untill we talked did I understand what was going on.

You should've never been told to run a slipping tranny into the ground, and that fault lie's with the person that gave you that advise. But rather than throw people under the bus and cause a bunch of problems I was willing to step up to the plate and help someone out that needed it. Not because I had to, or felt obligated, but because a person needed it.

I hope that everyone can learn from this situation, and in the future, if you have a problem, it's much better to talk with the person or the company you have a problem with first, before you try and resolve things on the internet. Being the nice understanding guy that I am, I helped Kyle out, but given the situation and the way things were originally handled I could have very well turned my back.

I appreciate your feedback Kyle, if you need anything else just let me know.

Cheers,
Wade

If ats won't warrenty it, why won't his builder? If i was the builder i would warrenty it myself out of my buisnesses pocket, so as to not lose a customer, wether or not he wannted ats-suncoast-alto- or borg warner goin back in, would be up to him. And when i had my trans built i went over every scenario possible with my builder to make sure that if i break it, they bought it, lol.

I agree this should be on the builder.

I dissagree that its up to the customer.....the builder chose to use the parts. He is responsible for making sure his build works and if its a parts problem IMO its HIS parts problem. He should fix the trans and go after ATS if need be and the builder should be deciding if he is comfortable with it staying together with ATS or suncoast or whom ever.

Now you've done it Kyle.......You've gone and ruined my reputation as the local A-hole!!!! :D

Anyway, you find out real quick that people aren't so bad when you call and talk to them.

Dont worry wade.....I've talked to you on the phone and even in person and still think your a a hole ):h

I also think Wade is a good guy and easy to work with. ATS is lucky to have him.

Rob
You're going to have Wade struttin like a peakok here pretty soon.:rolleyes: ):h :D

Dont worry wade.....I've talked to you on the phone and even in person and still think your a a hole ):h


LMAO!!! Well as long as someone does, I don't feel so bad now!! ;)

Rob
You're going to have Wade struttin like a peakok here pretty soon.:rolleyes: ):h :D

Too late for that!!! :p:

just for the record, when kyles tranny was built, that was the same time that ats stoped selling kits for the diy guys. he was on the end of that.

Wade, your head is going to get to big for body soon, watch out.):h

My diy ATS tranny is still going strong since 2003.

When I need a tranny done, I am not sure exactly what parts are going in, but either Mike L or Eric Merchant is doing the build. I am going to tell them up front what I expect. I pay once. Unless I decide to get Nasty. LOL

The moral of the story is you better know your parts and your builder going in, or you will be extremely disapointed.

I agree something wasn't right, but reguardless, it wasn't the customers fault IMO. ATS and the builder should have worked out a deal 50/50 cost or whatever and been done with it. When the customer gets pi$$ed, someone is going down. ATS took the brute of it, and the builder didn't look any better. Then the customer looks like an asshole, when all he wanted was the damn thing to work in the first place. With what he was doing, I doubt like heck that the tranny should have needed "freshened."

Anyway my .02 starting out, I was going to buy a suncoast and do it myself, but after watch match after match and round after round, I think either Mike L or Eric will get my extra dollar.

With out taking sides....

I've never had ANYBODY warranty clutches for me. I have had clutches sent to me at no charge when fixing a warranty unit that was a complete build, both from SC and ATS. When its built in the field, I dont blame the supplier a bit for not covering. If I build a trans, I back it up. If the converter goes down, the supplier should/does step up. Other then that, its out of there control.

[quote=duramaximizer;1642676;]When I need a tranny done, I am not sure exactly what parts are going in, but either Mike L or Eric Merchant is doing the build. I am going to tell them up front what I expect. I pay once. Unless I decide to get Nasty. LOL
quote]

Don't plan on keeping your truck long if you want to upgrade the tranny and run much power if you only plan on paying for the trans once.

Thanks again, Wade.

Seems like a wonderful time to close this one. Glad you guys found a way to work it out!:)