Went to Schieds yesterday and decided to dyno the new stack. I had not planned on running but after looking at the HP board I decided to run. The high HP was 488. I though, well, Jk's box is supposed to run close to that by itself so maybe I can beat the 488 with a stack. I ran JK's VA on 200+ and the quad 90 ver 1.20 stacked. I fully expected to run very strong, but I look at the first run and WTF 395 hp. I looked at the tech almost in shock over the low number. I pulled out the quad and ran just the VA on the next run and guess what.....about 10 less HP and 50# more torque. My high torque was 1085 at 386 HP. I thought I had a bad box so I go talk to CP about his VA box. It just so happens that a friend of mine is running Craigs VA program with a 90 Quad. His truck is also a double disc that pulled 298' and beat a lot of good trucks. Anyway, pull his on the rollers with the same result. We couldn't break 400 HP with any of his stacks either. Last year at Schieds almost 2/3 of the trucks shut down the dyno at 500 hp. This year not one truck broke 500 on friday. Any ideas on the low numbers??? I guess this proves that Dyno's don't prove muchhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif.

How was the air quality??? If its anything like here, very muggy and not very turbo friendly. What dyno did you run on, the mustang or the jet???

Who has duplicated JK's numbers?


Dyno operator input,air quality,correction factor and type of dyno all matter. I've rolled across town one day later very similiar air quality,if not better,same style dyno and lost 20 HP.





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

The dyno was a mustang. Air was very humid and about 90 degrees. What I don't understand is how my torque was almost 1100# ft but my HP was so low. I see in your sig Mackin that you ran 1049 @ 515 HP. CPmac said he had never ran over 1085 without using NOS. The other Dmax that ran after me was running the exact same boxes that CP made 508 with. How is it that last year a lot of trucks were 500+ and this year no one beat it...at least yesterday. Sounds like a software glitch to me. The Dodge that ran ahead of me had some sort of switchable box. When he turned his box to the lowest setting he gained 50 HP over his highest setting.

Gray Max,


It sounds like your torque convertor was not locking up.

If lower power levels are outputting more power, then it could be wheel spin or maybe dyno setup problems.

I have made 470 plus with just the VA 200+. Something was not right. Traction issues on the Mustang? If everyone's numbers were low then the dyno is a likely suspect. Air quality won't account for almost a 100HP drop.


Bassin, he has a manual so there was no converter lockup problem.

I have made 470 plus with just the VA 200+. Something was not right. Traction issues on the Mustang? If everyone's numbers were low then the dyno is a likely suspect. Air quality won't account for almost a 100HP drop.


Bassin, he has a manual so there was no converter lockup problem.











Brandon historically you dyno higher then the rest in general as in Kennedy when he gets something HE likes up on the dyno. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif


I contend he isn't a 100 HP light but prolly 50 or lower as the rest of the participants ,as he reports.I'd chalk it up to ambient temps.


He's seeing a HIGH or decent Torque number do to the ZF 6 and getting out off the 1 to 1 ratio.





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gifEdited by: Mackin

Dyno problems..... I bet your truck did not feel any slower. Grab a g-tech and see what it says, then go hit the rollers. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Sould'da had a SuperFlow. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

I have made 470 plus with just the VA 200+. Something was not right. Traction issues on the Mustang? If everyone's numbers were low then the dyno is a likely suspect. Air quality won't account for almost a 100HP drop.


Bassin, he has a manual so there was no converter lockup problem.








Brandon historically you dyno higher then the rest in general as in Kennedy when he gets something HE likes up on the dyno. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif


I contend he isn't a 100 HP light but prolly 50 or lower as the rest of the participants ,as he reports.I'd chalk it up to ambient temps.


He's seeing a HIGH or decent Torque number do to the ZF 6 and getting out off the 1 to 1 ratio.





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif





Mac,


I know, I know, I have those "bogus" inflated numbers. Be that as it may, the VA 200+ should break the 400 mark with ease on just about any truck with tranny that can handle it. 380's on a manual just does not make any sense, hell you have less drivetrain loss than the Ally.


It is my understanding that the Mustang was spitting out some seriously wonky numbers on all the trucks. I have info from an excellent source that a bone stock Ford 6.0 put down 483 TQ on the DynoJet and 600 on the Mustang. Hell it don't make 600 at the flywheel.


Maybe resident DynoJet expert will chime in. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I think Dipper had erroneously high numbers too didn't he?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif





I seriously think that the problem lies in the dyno, and the tie down on the dyno. The Mustang cradle roll units have been extremely inconsistent at higher HP levels.





Tony's truck should back up my data, be it low, high or otherwise...

Tony's truck should back up my data, be it low, high or otherwise...





Right it fell on it's face on the track and we got beat by that C5 that was in our rearview till then. I should of asked if he got the magic TCM with the ++ ,he would have looked like a deer in the KD bright headlights.





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Mackin

I say it has to be a dyno problem. It sucks to spend money on a BS dyno run.

I say it has to be a dyno problem. It sucks to spend money on a BS dyno run.





Most likely ,I'm just busting them guys and, I'm not sure if DIPPER had his finger off the trigger when he rolled the VA,he might have bumped it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Although temps and correction factor (you didn't offer) also play a role.


Do you have the dyno chart to post?





Mac

Not how I understood it:


http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13992&PN=1 ("")

I have had similar problems running on a Mustang dyno, we have a mustang dyno at school. With my VA 230 + injectors it ran 350+ hp and 1260 ft/lb of torque. Stock run with injectors only it ran 260hp and 530 or so ft. lb of torque. I though they were quite off. These were 1:1 runs with them getting rpm off the rollers, which couldnt have been right.

Not how I understood it:


http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13992&PN=1 ("")








Minor technicality. Point is alone ,it's useless as it will be trap speed inhibited. I've heard it shifts EH! not so well by a few individuals. Has to be as Motovet and Brandon have used a TCM to get'er done a Luxury that is not readily available to all.


I haven't had the time myself to try it on my truck as I didn't take it from Tony as my Max is in the body shop for a week and he's off to your place.


I should have drove his truck last week but from the passenger seat I wasn't overly impressed unless he wasn't stepping in "deep enough". IIRC consensus is it doesn't play well with Juice either.


Your saying one box,stacks aren't benificial but I assure you the stack he ran a 13.6 with certainly pulled harder and with the VA your speed limited still yet.


So perhaps good for you and some others but still sour grapes to me.





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Edited by: Mackin

Can't help it the transmission can't keep up with the box without increasing RPM limits....

Can't help it the transmission can't keep up with the box without increasing RPM limits....





No ones going to buy a Transmission around one "tuner",not very realistic.Was it you not to very long ago said it wasn't up against the rev limiter?


Reasoning , for the track as it isn't a play well together box,rev limit inhibited ,speed limit inhibited. Off the track towing big power = big problems ,and 97 comes up quick. I could go on.





So the Juice with bountiful features and power, still rules plug and play!





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

The Juice won't deal with the RPM or speed limiter either, chief.


Why would it be sour grapes for you?


No one ever said the VA was the best at everything. It does make a solid 470 at the wheels and it made a 13.5 pass at the track.


I guess I don't get it unless you just have a bone to pick. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Just steak bones.


What did I say that was out of line?Am I not telling the truth? Excuse me for paying attention and being observant listening and seeing is believing in the real world.


My point the Juice and VA are in the same league. "I think" the Juice is a better choice between the two for everyday use and stacking at the Track with the appropriate ECM tuner.


When EVER ONE with a stock TCM and tranny of choice is running a 13.5 then you have something. Paint me red for having a opinion,Chief !


Man touchy people you'd think I had my hand in your pocket.Unreal to come in loaded like that Brandon ,really! I said above I was busting reference YOU.


John chose to dig deeper so what run home with my tail between my legs? Not hardly!!!!!!


Mac Edited by: Mackin

http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shrug.gif (javascript void(0))





Thought so.





Mac http://www.janandnoel.com/gif/smiley/smiley147.gif

Thought so what?


I never came in loaded, I just asked some questions.


I know what that box can do with or without the magic TCM. I have a problem with the 380 number. It does not make any sense.


You still never answered why on the sour grapes.


I am ok with the fact that you think my numbers are bogus, I still sleep at night. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Chief. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Thought so what?


I never came in loaded, I just asked some questions.


I know what that box can do with or without the magic TCM. I have a problem with the 380 number. It does not make any sense.


You still never answered why on the sour grapes.


I am ok with the fact that you think my numbers are bogus, I still sleep at night. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Chief. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif








Questions as in plural? Nope!You asked one question.


Why sour grapes to ME?


Big power but you have to "step deeper". Still soft out of the hole.


No additional Rev Limiter.


No speed limit defeat.


Need specific tranny to get full benefit or a TCM.If that were not the case WHY did Motovet need in the Pull Off ,why did you?Was is Kennedy saying NOT his fault tranny won't keep up? On a BUILT Suncoast?


Claimed (on another site )to be a ONE box is all you need.Stacking isn't worth the time.How are you achieving your trap speeds?


Sets Crank codes with the Juice.


Plays with older Stealth only this is questionable and truck specific.


No need to go on,and I believe I already answered your question, but you wanted listed specifics.The VA is in the same league as the Juice. IMO the Juice with the bountiful features ,EGT back down ,low boost,tranny defuel,stackable WITH JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING, etc puts the VA second on my list,200++ or otherwise.


I guess people should have quit while they were ahead.But since you jumped in,in John's defense, loaded,as I see no other reason for your late participation ,as I mentioned above,I was busting.You have no VA endorsement issues ,right?


I have no AXE to grind but I also have NO reason not to share My observations,do you have a problem with me doing so? I still believe it was YOU, chief ,that had alternative motives coming in firing across the bow!


I never said your numbers were "bogus",prove it.


Mac Edited by: Mackin

Whooop, there it is.


15/30


Mac's volley..............

Mac,


I don't question your right to your observations. I should have the same right. I don't have an ulterior motive for telling my obeservations about what the box is capable of. I don't shill it, you can ask anyone I have ever talked to about the box. I tell them the pros and the cons and how it runs on my truck. Just like I tell them about the Juice or the Quad or the Predator or the VA 230, etc. I don't care if it was busting as you put it, it certainly came across as something a bit more than that.


I run all sorts of things on my truck, the VA and the TCM being a couple of them. I run the TCM 24/7 because I like the way it shifts, not because I have to have it for the VA.


You say the VA pretty much sucks and I say it runs pretty well but it won't do everything. It's a difference of opinion and I will leave it at that.


And you know we have tangled over my dyno numbers in the past. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


The original issue of Gray Max's low number still bugs me. In the spirit of not arguing anymore and since I can't handle any more nosebleeds deceiphering your convoluted prose, I'm out! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I say it has to be a dyno problem. It sucks to spend money on a BS dyno run.





I have to agree with the dyno problem theory. Sounds like an awful lot of torque as compared to the hp. Perhaps a glitch in the way the dyno read rpm????????? After all..it's just math and if one of the inputs to the formula is off then...................http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

40/Love................point

40/Love................point





Richard, ya crack me up! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

40/Love................point





Do you have to win by two? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Hey all I was doing is compiling and pointing out the obvious, I do believe my posting was very precise and to the point ,hard to decipherer or am I beating around the bush,absolutely not.You know exactly what I'm saying.I've ran the VA 230 and Dyno'd the box at 450 RWHP but on the street it ,pick your own word,but I was hardly impressed with drivability. So here comes the New improved producing a claimed marginal gain in HP but there are drivabilty hiccups with it,whats different? Every box is under the microscope around here, the VA 200+++ is no different,I should hope.





As you have claimed the VA puts out XXX if you enjoy spending money and going backward in XXX as your previous #2 stack produced 514 RWHP ,what can I say,it's your money.I know certainly that "prior" to Injectors ,we haven't seen the numbers with the VA-injectors yet I can recall and cost to get there,it wouldn't be your "big guns" choice to use.


Perhaps that's why you went injectors to make the VA competitive.Poke poke! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif





Reread the thread I wasn't flaming just poking a stick and you couldn't resist the temptation.Also looking at your sig may have made me think you were here for alternative motives.I'm no Newbie to the scene. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif Like I said your truck historically dyno's higher then others running same performance tunes. No flame ,not claiming "bogus", the facts are the facts,lucky for you.


At least all the New guys coming up no what to SKIP and if desired to go reverse in #2 on one box and or stacking numbers they have their cross hairs On Target,it's all here in black and white.


I don't think anyone should be upset that I'm squeezing the truth out of the new "box" on the street.


If you need some clarity in my verbiage,you let me know!





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gifEdited by: Mackin

Did they have the right correction factor?

Had a friend who is a math wiz look at the curves and the rpm and calculate the HP vs the TQ at the given RPM's. The numbers in no way worked out right on paper. I will try to post the Dyno sheets later.


To add to the Edge , VA debate, IMHO the VA is a better box for the 6 gang trucks. We don't ned all that shift defuel crap and the Edge won't calculate the 0 to 60 with a 6. Evan Davis ran both The VA and the Edge with the quad and the VA put up a bigger number, but we know the dyno was offhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gifEdited by: Gray Max

Since Mac feels the need to question the VA's shifting and need for a TCM, I'll tell it how I think it is:





The unlocked mode results in too much "slippage" in the converter. This allows RPM to exceed input by too large a figure. This puts us on the RPM limit. The TCC clutch does not come on aggressively enough with the pulsed duty cycle and it can't get hooked up quickly enough. Yes, we could increase the RPMlimit, but that's not the answer. This will just allow the converter to get blown away more creating more heat, and more potential damage. At this point in time, it is pretty much pointless for me to kick it down in anything but TH mode...





The HJAT will pause (quite notably) at the 2-3 shift on my truck. The VA pulls harder up there, and will oscillate on the limiter. 3-4 and on are smooth sailing as the TCC is in and stays in. I have 2 Band-Aids on my truck at present to correct this until we can get a converter that is tight enough.

Mac,


There is nothing wrong with putting these boxes under examination, I do it every time I run one on my truck. Like I said I don't want to argue about it.


I was attempting to give my input about the VA box and I turned it into a pissing contest, so I will try to refrain from anything that may get taken the wrong way. At any rate I don't think the VA box was moving backwards on my truck. I also had no illusions about the injectors and what they can do for a hot tune. If anyone tells you that they will make a big gain on any large stack or tune then they are smoking something and it's not diesel.


I saw no improvement for a hot tune with the injectors on just diesel, we already have a problem digesting the fuel we have from programming on the stock turbo. What they did do was pave the road for some big nitrous gains and hopefully a larger turbo down the road.


I have told the truth about it on my truck. It makes a good number on just diesel. It shifts pretty well on my truck with or without the race TCM. It made a 13.5 pass at the track WITHOUT the race TCM installed.


Yes I still use the Quad or the Predator for removing the speed limiter. I do the same for my Hot Juice.


Could it use some extra RPMs? I think so.


It is very comparable to the Hot Juice but it does have a few things I like such as no defuel and I don't have to worry about the EGT limiter getting all wonky. The VA has never set any codes or done anything weird on my truck. It did make the biggest number I have ever had on the dyno with just the VA and nitrous with the speed limiter removed. That was the context of the VA versus the stack.


I don't stack anything with it. It is a nice alternative to the rattle and surge of the Quad.


Who knows what I may try next, I am just trying to see how far this puppy can go. Some things work, some don't but at least I am trying to keep the Duramax moving forward. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

I think Mac needs a vacation......... Who's up for a Vegas trip? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

What hapens in Vegas stays in vegas. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

There seems to be a whole lot of "chiefs" hanging out with us dumb ol indianshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif.........been around a lot of trucks and dynos........including most of the chiefs mentioned above. I have never seen any truck make power as effortlessly as Brandons......no lugging........run it up to lockup speed, roll on it and watch it go.......As for spending lots of money on less than satisfying numbers.........well we have all been there.......a dyno pull is a measure of power for one point in time with the conditions that are present at that time........yes at times the numbers are repeatable.....but sometimes they are not and frustration sets in........I will admit initially questioning Brandon's numbers.........but after witnessing the runs and driving the truck.......along with making pulls with my sub par truck http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif I'm a believer..........WTFEdited by: sdaver

There's no doubt that J/K's VA is a "HOT" box. I'm pullin' Sunday so we'll see how she does.... stacked with the quad of coursehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

There's no doubt that J/K's VA is a "HOT" box. I'm pullin' Sunday so we'll see how she does.... stacked with the quad of coursehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif





You should swing up here this weekend!





We're looking at going to a truck pull Saturday PM if we feel up to it after the day's events...

I'd love to come up, but I will probably be putting the final touches on the truck. We'll see though.