Guys build the bottom end first. We've pushed the Dmax far enough to find the limit. Most any responsible vendor will agree that 600RWHP+ is going to catch up to you unless you beef it up. It's not a question of if, but when. Much better than picking up the pieces. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to sell more twin CP3's and turbo kits, but I don't want to be blowing up engines. A nice 450-500 RWHP setup will serve you well and live much longer.

Yes I've run 700+ successfully as have others, but look around and you'll see they are starting to fall. We've heard the year of the LLY and the year of the LBZ. Let's not make this the year of kaboom.

Flame suit on...

Forgot nitrous in the title.

anybody that thinks the flame suit is needed is mistaken. There are the lucky ones, but all the new bolt on's are gonna kill these motors. Its cheaper the first time around for rods etc then having to replace block etc.

x2

What about the LBZ should we be worried also?

I'm assuming this thread is in response to the thread with the bolt on garrett kit? It would seem to me that if you're going to do a mod that significantly increases your boost you would have to first lower compression. Goes without saying that the amount of power you're talking about requires a built tranny.

I dont feel it has anything to do with the Garrett kit, just an overall view. As more and more big trucks get built with out paying attention to the internals, we will hear more and more about it.

I'm assuming this thread is in response to the thread with the bolt on garrett kit? It would seem to me that if you're going to do a mod that significantly increases your boost you would have to first lower compression. Goes without saying that the amount of power you're talking about requires a built tranny.

Consider it a public service announcement. At one point I felt many of the engine failures were guys getting stupid or poor tuning, or nasty nitrous, but we are seeing it more and more. To top that all off, we have many first time diesel owners coming into this and seeing "recipes" for big power not fully aware of the potential consequences. I don't think the LBZ improvements will be that significant, but only time will tell...

Biggest of what you're saying is rods/pistons, correct? What about heads, cam&rods,crank? Are guys replacing them for the benefits or are these something we can expect to see fail as well? In YOUR honest opinion.

Rods seem to be the first weak link followed by the pistons. Time will tell what comes next. Heads cam etc are for HP purposes.

P.S. If you build a core engine before making junk you'll have 2 engines (one built and one spare) when you are done. ;)

I could see running rods but you guys are installing LBZ pistons in your build ups other then being stock piston std or .20 over mybe coated what would be the gain swaping lbx pistons for lbz pistons.

I'm assuming this thread is in response to the thread with the bolt on garrett kit? It would seem to me that if you're going to do a mod that significantly increases your boost you would have to first lower compression. Goes without saying that the amount of power you're talking about requires a built tranny.


Big boost is not needed on the LBZ's to make good power....

Big boost is not needed on the LBZ's to make good power....

No its not, but you wouldn't want to combine big boost and too much compression either. LBZ's have an advantage in that area I guess. The new LMM's have even lower compression.

The General better start beefing up the Ally's before they leave the factory.

Guys build the bottom end first. We've pushed the Dmax far enough to find the limit. Most any responsible vendor will agree that 600RWHP+ is going to catch up to you unless you beef it up. It's not a question of if, but when. Much better than picking up the pieces. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to sell more twin CP3's and turbo kits, but I don't want to be blowing up engines. A nice 450-500 RWHP setup will serve you well and live much longer.

Yes I've run 700+ successfully as have others, but look around and you'll see they are starting to fall. We've heard the year of the LLY and the year of the LBZ. Let's not make this the year of kaboom.

Flame suit on...

Forgot nitrous in the title.

:agreed: IMHO if your running around 500hp daily, your on the jagged edge, its a crap shoot 50/50 chance of living or dying. 600+ daily driving you're on borrowed time, and it won't be if, it will be when that thing needs to be rebuilt. Alot of people or finding out the hard way, and now having to spend some $$$ to get that ride up and running again..........its been almost 2 years and i haven't forgot this valuable lesson, too bad it was 500 miles away from home when it happened.

No flame suit needed in this thread John, if anyone denies it or doesn't agree, they're just lying to themselves and they'll eventually pay in the end.

John

I'm glad you and other's are seeing the same thing we have been here. We've said it for along time 500 RwHp and it's at the edge. This is the reason we make people sign a wavier for our big programming. It's not that it cannot be done but that it will cost you in one form or another. The rods are the weakest link and we've solved that one. The next weak link is going to be a toss up between head gasket sealing and pistons. With what we can do today the head gaskets can be helped with studs and /or o-rings but once that happens I think the piston and rod bearing may start to show itself more often. The LBZ rod is slightly stronger than the LB7/LLY ones but do not fool yourself into thinking that makes the problem go away.

any smart operator would take advantage of a switchable tune setup and not run at high levels each and every outing, do you need 500 to go to the market?:rolleyes:

any smart operator would take advantage of a switchable tune setup and not run at high levels each and every outing, do you need 500 to go to the market?:rolleyes:

Very true. 95% of the time I ran a tow tune(which was still enough for most of the comp. on the street)

I'll be working on the set-up of the chassis, tires, etc. this go around to help improve my et's and not increaseing to huge power. This new one should be a bit better than the last one, but won't be anywhere near the fastest Dmax out there. I can live with that.

I agree 100%. This has been a HUGE topic of disscusion on my front lately. I run a very conservative tune nearly all the time. I do not even have a BIG tune loaded into my truck. You put the power to it, it will fail...great point!

I'm not to concerned about the 500HP area, it's when we go to 600+ that things get dicey.

I have one customer who ran at 500RWHP added twin pumps and turbo, no tweaks to the tune and kaboom. Truck was in one truck pull months back at 500RWHP. No other competition.

And no I am not an engine builder trying to sell engines. I'll leave that up to someone else. Weve already seen too many failed engine projects so I'm on the sidelines for a bit until things evolve to where I am comfortable with the products available.

On a related note, Casper decided to prove your point.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=135130

I'm not to concerned about the 500HP area, it's when we go to 600+ that things get dicey.

I have one customer who ran at 500RWHP added twin pumps and turbo, no tweaks to the tune and kaboom. Truck was in one truck pull months back at 500RWHP. No other competition.

And no I am not an engine builder trying to sell engines. I'll leave that up to someone else. Weve already seen too many failed engine projects so I'm on the sidelines for a bit until things evolve to where I am comfortable with the products available.

I am on the sidelines too! :D ;)

We pushed the ever living snot out of mine doing some good product testing and development while trying to make a 2WD compete with the 4WD trucks. All things considered I got everything I could have asked for and more. It will be interesting to see where the wear and breakage occurred on mine and I think the round two engine will be fun to build...

I understand where you guys are coming from. I even have all my power at a few touches of buttons.. but whats the point of running it all every day? I run normal driving.. ppe 1 and edge 1. it makes me appreciate more what I have.. and lets me know that this thing should last longer than wide open all the time. But thanks for the heads up guys.. both from this forum and from McRats

Has anyone run dual pumps on their stock engined truck for any amount of time without failure?

I don't think it's the pumps, just the HP.

I know of over a handful that have had major problems.

Sorry, I kinda thought this had to do with fueling and air mods and the effect they have on engine reliability.

anybody that thinks the flame suit is needed is mistaken. There are the lucky ones, but all the new bolt on's are gonna kill these motors. Its cheaper the first time around for rods etc then having to replace block etc.


Good point.

Where are people getting the old/new blocks for replacements after they window them or for spares? I would like to find a good block and start building it, so that all I have to do is swap and then build the motor thats now in the truck as a spare. That way if I do get Stupid, I have a backup.

Sorry, I kinda thought this had to do with fueling and air mods and the effect they have on engine reliability.

Agreed. I think this should be sticky in both performance threads.

exactly. Other than the turbo I will never run any other performance parts on a stock engine. Risk is too great.

Heres how I see it:

1) spend 2500 bucks on dual CP3's, blow your engine, rebuild the engine with crower rods. Now you're out of an unplanned 5 grand (rods plus the new CP3's you just bought), plus the cost of a second core engine.

OR

2)spend 2500 bucks on the crower rods now while your engine is still good, then add the dual CP3's at a later point when you have more money saved and can upgrade things at your own pace.

to sum it up: Id rather have a 450rwhp truck with an engine that can support 850rwhp than a 750rwhp truck with an engine that can support 500rwhp.

:exactly:

Has anyone run dual pumps on their stock engined truck for any amount of time without failure?

I don't think it's the pumps, just the HP.

I know of over a handful that have had major problems.


:D The pumps let you make the power:D

Has anyone run dual pumps on their stock engined truck for any amount of time without failure?

I don't think it's the pumps, just the HP.

I know of over a handful that have had major problems.

We had about 50 passes and maybe 50 dyno pulls along with alot of street abuse at 650+ with the Dual Fuelers. We started running them last summer. No indications of problems, compression good.

Perhaps I should have stayed down at 650.


NAWWW!!!! :D

hopefully you can let us know what it takes to make engines last through the 750+ stage.. ;)

I'm glad this has been posted up to try to get some heads out of the clouds. There is a limit and we have surpassed it. Now the big questions is, what do you do to make a built motor last? I've seen some posts that some engines were built wrong and that is why they failed. I don't think finger pointing is going to fix the issue. We are going to need aftermarket pistons, rods, valves, bearings, etc.. to make these things live. It is getting expensive to find the right combo! I'd love to see Casper with a set of Crower rods in it and nothing else...just to see what breaks next and how far it can be pushed. I vote Casper for the Duramax test bed. I can't afford it, so I nominate Casper!

ok i have a couple questions.
wouldnt running a 500hp tune be fine as long as you drove it like a normal person??

and second, all these dodge boys that say their engines are so much stronger and :blahblah: . are they having these kinds of problems too??

ok i have a couple questions.
wouldnt running a 500hp tune be fine as long as you drove it like a normal person??

and second, all these dodge boys that say their engines are so much stronger and :blahblah: . are they having these kinds of problems too??

You need to watch the EGT's with a stock engine and big tuning, but failures on "tune only" trucks seem to be fairly low. It is possible that a bigger turbo might actually be safer at 500rwhp since the EGT's will be lower.

No, the Dodge guys have already went through all this. When you turn a stock engine Dodge up to 700rwhp, it's life is in jeopardy as well. Usually they blow a headgasket first as a warning.

ok i have a couple questions.
wouldnt running a 500hp tune be fine as long as you drove it like a normal person??

and second, all these dodge boys that say their engines are so much stronger and :blahblah: . are they having these kinds of problems too??

I won't really say its a problem it's more of a steping stone. First tune, then turbo(s), then rods, then duel CP3, and then pistons(easier to add with the rods), heads, etc.......knowlage is power, unforuntally some do it the hard way, that why my LLY hasn't had a second CP3, my LLY dons't have rods(yet), but If I had them I know myself, that's why rods and pistons are the first things to get done in my LB7 project..:D

Pardon the ignorance of the DMax, but in what manner do the rods fail? Bend the beam, stretch bolts, bend beams AND stretch bolts, pull the piston pin end off, seize a rod bearing then hammer the lower end, etc?

Are these rod breakers doing something beyond stock to hold the head gaskets? I have never seen an engine that just "breaks a rod" without blowing a head gasket (or 3) firstly. Typical factory engineering yields a head gasket that is not as strong as a factory rod. If an engine IS breaking rods with factory type head gaskets...I would strongly suspect over speed fatigue and not BIG HP as the root cause.

BTW - Building diesel pulling tractor engines is one of my vocations.

Inquiring minds would like to know without spending $20,000...:(

Regards,

Rods bend from cylinder pressure. If they bend far enough, the piston hits the counterweight and all hell breaks loose.

Not normally a problem except for serious hotrodders.

Reallisticly its not a $20,000 mod, if your planing on a turbo and duel cp3 upgrade, a $2,700.00 insurance policy is not that bad. :)

exactly. Other than the turbo I will never run any other performance parts on a stock engine. Risk is too great.

Heres how I see it:

1) spend 2500 bucks on dual CP3's, blow your engine, rebuild the engine with crower rods. Now you're out of an unplanned 5 grand (rods plus the new CP3's you just bought), plus the cost of a second core engine.

OR

2)spend 2500 bucks on the crower rods now while your engine is still good, then add the dual CP3's at a later point when you have more money saved and can upgrade things at your own pace.

to sum it up: Id rather have a 450rwhp truck with an engine that can support 850rwhp than a 750rwhp truck with an engine that can support 500rwhp.

:exactly:

Now Ben...what fun is that? :)

Rods bend from cylinder pressure. If they bend far enough, the piston hits the counterweight and all hell breaks loose.

Not normally a problem except for serious hotrodders.

Hell = $$$. You can look through the thread and see pics of "shortened rod carnage".

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=119788&page=1

Like everyone is saying...build big first if you plan on doing all the add ons. Learn from the rest of windowed block club.

To build a short block correctly, it takes a lot of money as I'm in the process if doing. I personaly can't see doing this until someone makes a better piston for our needs. I have made the choice to back down the HP and still build the best short block I can. This is no different than any other motor sport but the cost of repair is considerably more compared to a gas motor.

Just my opinion but if you want these things to live 500-550HP is where I would stop and be able to get a 100,000 miles out of one of these motors.

If you want to win A pull or race, put 700HP in it.

If you want to win a championship......make it live!!

Rods are bending from several things that are being done in the field of modifications. The end cause is excessive cylinder pressure. The root cause however is many different things. The LB7/LLY rod to crankshaft counterbalance clearance is about .060" so it doesn''t take much for the rod to flex down that far and when it does if it's the front cylinders or rear cylinders you see a rod out the side of the block pretty quick. If your lucky and it's one of the center 4 cylinders you get Blue/White smoke on startup, cylinder balance is off and rough running at idle. They seem to be OK at 500RwHp but once beyond that things start falling apart quickly. The more you run the power the shorter they live. Most Duramax motors when run at high power (500 + RwHp) will not live for much over 10 hours. This means 10 hours at 500 + and things come apart, not 10 hours of running low power with a burst of high power tossed in once in awhile.

so whos gonna build the biggest baddest crew cab out there??

so whos gonna build the biggest baddest crew cab out there??

There is several of them out there already

Rods are bending from several things that are being done in the field of modifications. The end cause is excessive cylinder pressure. The root cause however is many different things. The LB7/LLY rod to crankshaft counterbalance clearance is about .060" so it doesn''t take much for the rod to flex down that far and when it does if it's the front cylinders or rear cylinders you see a rod out the side of the block pretty quick. If your lucky and it's one of the center 4 cylinders you get Blue/White smoke on startup, cylinder balance is off and rough running at idle. They seem to be OK at 500RwHp but once beyond that things start falling apart quickly. The more you run the power the shorter they live. Most Duramax motors when run at high power (500 + RwHp) will not live for much over 10 hours. This means 10 hours at 500 + and things come apart, not 10 hours of running low power with a burst of high power tossed in once in awhile.

Does the LBZ crank have more clearence?

Does the LBZ crank have more clearence?


Yes it does. When you install LBZ pistons into a LB7 or LLY the piston skirts will also hit the counterbalance weight so you either trim the piston skirts or clearance the counterbalance weight area.

I'd love to see Casper with a set of Crower rods in it and nothing else...just to see what breaks next and how far it can be pushed. I vote Casper for the Duramax test bed. I can't afford it, so I nominate Casper!

Let's not :p: Pat is getting the motor from me as a belated Christmas present/Early B-day present :D I don't want to do it twice ):h

so whos gonna build the biggest baddest crew cab out there??

Like it has been said, they're already out there! I was up at Merchants a month or so ago they had what I would consider a big bad crew cab in the works. I know there's others too.

-Chris

Rods are bending from several things that are being done in the field of modifications. The end cause is excessive cylinder pressure. The root cause however is many different things. The LB7/LLY rod to crankshaft counterbalance clearance is about .060" so it doesn''t take much for the rod to flex down that far ...

Uhhhhhh..if the connecting rod is bending enough to effectively shorten it's length by 0.060", then that is a SEVERE bend. I am still wondering if these 500+ HP Dmax's have additional "countermeasures" in the top end to hold the gaskets...? Are these rod benders running stock gaskets and stock bolts/studs? Has anyone ever done a hardness test on a stock rod? Are they forged rods from the factory or PM rods?

And the $20,000 I referenced earlier would include the acquisition cost of an engine, the performance mods, the spare engine, and new performance "hard parts"...

Regards,

I was up at Merchants a month or so ago they had what I would consider a big bad crew cab in the works.
-Chris

Heard there were others at Merchants recently (although I was not there). I also heard the truck that they had there was the nastiest crew cab out there.

I am told that I will find out if that was true; soon.

Guys build the bottom end first. We've pushed the Dmax far enough to find the limit. Most any responsible vendor will agree that 600RWHP+ is going to catch up to you unless you beef it up. It's not a question of if, but when. Much better than picking up the pieces. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to sell more twin CP3's and turbo kits, but I don't want to be blowing up engines. A nice 450-500 RWHP setup will serve you well and live much longer.

Yes I've run 700+ successfully as have others, but look around and you'll see they are starting to fall. We've heard the year of the LLY and the year of the LBZ. Let's not make this the year of kaboom.

Flame suit on...

Forgot nitrous in the title.

Well said John!

Uhhhhhh..if the connecting rod is bending enough to effectively shorten it's length by 0.060", then that is a SEVERE bend. I am still wondering if these 500+ HP Dmax's have additional "countermeasures" in the top end to hold the gaskets...? Are these rod benders running stock gaskets and stock bolts/studs? Has anyone ever done a hardness test on a stock rod? Are they forged rods from the factory or PM rods?

And the $20,000 I referenced earlier would include the acquisition cost of an engine, the performance mods, the spare engine, and new performance "hard parts"...

Regards,

Considering 500hp is so easy to make with a d-max these days. Lift pump, exhaust and tunning is all you really need. I doubt that anyone with that setup has done head studs or head gaskets. Also, many people here on the board have not done head studs or gaskets and put big chargers on their motors and run them at high boost levels for a while.

Bentley

here are a few replies i had when asking the same question over a year ago about reliabilty on a 5 to 600 hp motor, you might see a few others in the thread have joinded the holy block seen since then

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76213

You need to watch the EGT's with a stock engine and big tuning, but failures on "tune only" trucks seem to be fairly low. It is possible that a bigger turbo might actually be safer at 500rwhp since the EGT's will be lower.


what kind have failures have you seen caused by egts?

Agreed. I think this should be sticky in both performance threads.

Definitely a good candidate for a Sticky mirrored in tyhe Fuel and Air forum...

so whos gonna build the biggest baddest crew cab out there??

Most all running crew cabs, use them everyday, thats why they bought a crew cab. The fastest trucks this year will be the single cabs built for racing. Just makes sense. Everyday trucks get to be not everyday trucks, when running big power.

Keith is the exception to the crew cab rule.

Although 11 sec. crew cabs are still in the top 99.9% of the fastest Dmax category.:D

On the head bolt issue. Yes the stock rods(lb7/lly) bend before the stock bolted head gaskets blow in most cases. Guys are running 60psi on stock gaskets and stock bolts.

Yes it does. When you install LBZ pistons into a LB7 or LLY the piston skirts will also hit the counterbalance weight so you either trim the piston skirts or clearance the counterbalance weight area.


Would a LBZ Crank fit in a LB7 block?

what kind have failures have you seen caused by egts?

Pistons have cracked on stock tuning from excessive EGT's. 500rwhp tunes run more EGT's.

Number one failure though is the charger.

Would a LBZ Crank fit in a LB7 block?


IIRC you will have to do some clearencing. I think thats what eric told me...I could be wrong tho

most all running crew cabs, use them everyday, thats why they bought a crew cab. The fastest trucks this year will be the single cabs built for racing. Just makes sense. Everyday trucks get to be not everyday trucks, when running big power. Keith is the exception to the crew cab rule. Although 11 sec. Crew cabs are still in the top 99.9% of the fastest dmax category.:d on the head bolt issue. Yes the stock rods(lb7/lly) bend before the stock bolted head gaskets blow in most cases. Guys are running 60psi on stock gaskets and stock bolts.

Extended Cabs Own YOUSE!! :D

Pistons have cracked on stock tuning from excessive EGT's. 500rwhp tunes run more EGT's.

Number one failure though is the charger.

I can't figure out if one is running a hot tune (say 500-type setting of some sort), BUT does not push it (meaning perhaps racing on a track 3-4 times in a year), occassionally taking long runs on highways (not 9 hours at 120 mph but 9 hrs at 70-90), and occasionally streeting it hard (twice a month max) is this type of behavior going to break it down by it's 100,000th mile?

Or do I just buy a spare motor, build it, and let it sit until the time comes...?

The harder you run it the shorter the life will be. At the 500 RwHp level they seem to last for about 80K if you take it easy and only use it once in awhile. Some that run them hard have had failures as soon as 20K.

I have been running my 2002 pretty hard at 500 RWHP for 3 years and over 65K miles.

All is well with my truck and I have hundereds of load cell dyno pulls on it , at least 150 trips down the 1/4 mile track and it has been sprayed with N20 and not a problem yet, not even an injector issue.

Maybe some are built better than others ????

Once you deviate from stock common sense is that the lifespan is shortened a bit, nobody can tell you how long it will be before a major failure, it is just a guess !

Or do I just buy a spare motor, build it, and let it sit until the time comes...?

Why would you build it and wait for yours to blow up? If your going to build one put it in when it's done instead of waiting for the inevitable.

Why would you build it and wait for yours to blow up? If your going to build one put it in when it's done instead of waiting for the inevitable.I'll second that. Experienced in that department.

While I agree that these motors, when pushed with big tunes, are at their limit, I disagree that they can't be ran at these levels safely on stock internals. Since a few high profile motors let loose, I guess it is now time for some people to admit that these engines do have a limit.

The risk when running a 500 hp tune on a motor with only a lift pump will be worse than running a 500hp tune with twin cp3's and a larger turbo, IMHO. You can enjoy your Dmax and get some great power out of the motor, you need to be smart about it too. #2 tuning is just like NOS, the guys that are smart about it and build their setups properly, usually have better results than those pushing the envelope for every last bit of power. The problem is, we all know what these damn things can do when you push them. Who wants a safe 600hp when you know you can get 800? Who wants to run a tenth slower than their buddy when they know they could lay a .5 second a$$ whoopin on them? It is all up to the owner of the truck. If you want a safe 500 hp truck, I believe you can build and tune it right and have one. Depending on how some of the new setups test out, it might even be possible to get 600rwhp without pushing the limits much. Time will only tell, but these motors sure are impressive! The year of the 1000HP Duramax could also turn into the year of the reliable 600hp Duramax if the truck owner builds it properly. The twin CP3 kits are going to be the key to reliable horsepower if it is used properly. Although engine modifications are going to be the best way to make reliable horsepower in the future, it is probably a good idea to let things live and cut back the power until some of these high dollar engine builds prove their worth. Cutting back the power does not mean you need to run a stock truck. Be smart about the decisions you make and you will be a very happy Duramax owner.

Flame on!

very well put!!:D
chays

While I agree that these motors, when pushed with big tunes, are at their limit, I disagree that they can't be ran at these levels safely on stock internals. Since a few high profile motors let loose, I guess it is now time for some people to admit that these engines do have a limit.

The risk when running a 500 hp tune on a motor with only a lift pump will be worse than running a 500hp tune with twin cp3's and a larger turbo, IMHO. You can enjoy your Dmax and get some great power out of the motor, you need to be smart about it too. #2 tuning is just like NOS, the guys that are smart about it and build their setups properly, usually have better results than those pushing the envelope for every last bit of power. The problem is, we all know what these damn things can do when you push them. Who wants a safe 600hp when you know you can get 800? Who wants to run a tenth slower than their buddy when they know they could lay a .5 second a$$ whoopin on them? It is all up to the owner of the truck. If you want a safe 500 hp truck, I believe you can build and tune it right and have one. Depending on how some of the new setups test out, it might even be possible to get 600rwhp without pushing the limits much. Time will only tell, but these motors sure are impressive! The year of the 1000HP Duramax could also turn into the year of the reliable 600hp Duramax if the truck owner builds it properly. The twin CP3 kits are going to be the key to reliable horsepower if it is used properly. Although engine modifications are going to be the best way to make reliable horsepower in the future, it is probably a good idea to let things live and cut back the power until some of these high dollar engine builds prove their worth. Cutting back the power does not mean you need to run a stock truck. Be smart about the decisions you make and you will be a very happy Duramax owner.

Flame on!

Well put Robert!

Once we put the "beefed" engine in Casper, we will still try to test ways to keep cylinder pressure and EGT's down to help stock engines live.

You can always throw money at a problem, but it's much harder to figure ways not to.

;)

I'm glad all you flamers are getting along now!-:t


(PAUSE....) Hold on a second, I'm loading a new tune into my truck, we'll see what this does:D

One thing that is missing here is the simple fact that it takes cylinder pressure to push the piston down. The harder/quicker you push the piston down the more Torque/Hp you make. So on a stock internal motor you have to increase the cylinder pressure to raise the power output and that is what breaks engines. Now we are talking about properly tuned motors here as an improperly tuned motor will make far more cylinder pressure than it needs too.

Once you begin to modify the internals you can help the power by reducing the friction and pumping losses to gain some power but you will still need to raise cylinder pressure above stock to make any big gains.

Really enjoying this thread. Nice to see some of the big players considering a, "time out" on the hp and torque race until we know a bit more about these engines.

Really enjoying this thread. Nice to see some of the big players considering a, "time out" on the hp and torque race until we know a bit more about these engines.

As am I. This is the type of thread that surpasses any advice I could get elsewhere. After talking to JK I still chose to bolt on CP3's, lifts, new turbo, and PPE Hot+2. Just got the truck back yesterday and in 32 deg OSA temps she was reading only 600 F on the pyro at 70 mph. Ran her on level 5 only with no timing and will probably dyno it this afternoon but I am stuck on what to do next.

Having a collection of good tuners and builders that are getting along on this thread helps sort it out.

The question about having another motor built was a twofold dilemna: (1) Is the LLY the motor to use in building THE sick-fast DAILY DRIVER to begin with and (2) I'm not sure I'd want to be without the truck for months while having the motor rebuilt...hence the question about having another built from the ground up.

Appreciate the input guys.

As am I. This is the type of thread that surpasses any advice I could get elsewhere. After talking to JK I still chose to bolt on CP3's, lifts, new turbo, and PPE Hot+2. Just got the truck back yesterday and in 32 deg OSA temps she was reading only 600 F on the pyro at 70 mph. Ran her on level 5 only with no timing and will probably dyno it this afternoon but I am stuck on what to do next.

Having a collection of good tuners and builders that are getting along on this thread helps sort it out.

The question about having another motor built was a twofold dilemna: (1) Is the LLY the motor to use in building THE sick-fast DAILY DRIVER to begin with and (2) I'm not sure I'd want to be without the truck for months while having the motor rebuilt...hence the question about having another built from the ground up.

Appreciate the input guys.

After reading your signature I say you are a good candidate for a time out and let the dust settle a bit to see what you have. Doesn't say it in your signature, but if you are driving a 4x4 a transfer case brace is the next thing I'd get. The debate on whether or not to get studs is on going. I for one think it is worth the investment. I blew a head gasket and it is not a cheap fix. I had head studs at the time too, but they had not been retorqued after install and a period of running. I would also consider getting into EFI live. There are some great tuners on here, Kennedy being one, , Bobo, Tony Moonshine, McRat, 1000 hp can tune a bit too. Steve Cole doesn't use EFI Live but he can write you a custom tune for your truck as well. I believe any of these guys can write you a tune that will make your truck perform exactly the way you want it to. After market big sticks is another hot topic. Some say yea some say ney. McRat seems to do pretty well with stock sticks on a LLY.

I have totally switched gears this year. I modded the crap out of my 02 the last two years and competed all over the West driving to the events. Always worried about breaking it. You are never gonna be fastest truck at the track with a heavy crewcab especially with a monster fuel tank, I had a 45 gal transfer flow and it weighed 157 lbs dry. If you are just pulling then probably a different story, but that is not my thing. Decided to buy an used single cab and make a race truck, serious street legal 4x4 pickup, but not a daily driver. I returned my 02 to stock and sold it. Bought a totally tricked up 07 classic that I'm going to keep mostly stock.;)
The LLY block is the same as the LB7 block IIRC. The truck you are referring to used his stock LB7 block for the build. If you continue to go down the road of ever increasing hp and torque for your daily driver you will break your truck. Buying a spare motor as a backup is good insurance. You can keep your eyes open on eBay and pick one up pretty reasonable. If you grenade your motor you will need one anyway.

Sorry for the long post.

Sorry for the long post.

Appreciate the post. Also plan on letting the dust settle in as you suggest (but I just GOT to dyno it today to see what I have ;) ). I really don't drive it that hard anyhow so the only time any of this gets used is normally when I come up on some wisenheimer on the streets (like the Ford on my way back from Suncoast or the other Ford on the I-40 who only got past me due to the rev limiter).

None of the above occurances will ever repeat themselves again I am hoping.

I know this hasn't been tested yet but...For us guys that like to abuse our trucks on the street every day and race on the weekends will a built motor last at 700hp and also be able to rack up a few miles?

Appreciate the post. Also plan on letting the dust settle in as you suggest (but I just GOT to dyno it today to see what I have ;) ). I really don't drive it that hard anyhow so the only time any of this gets used is normally when I come up on some wisenheimer on the streets (like the Ford on my way back from Suncoast or the other Ford on the I-40 who only got past me due to the rev limiter).

None of the above occurances will ever repeat themselves again I am hoping.

Don't think that will happen again.:D

I know this hasn't been tested yet but...For us guys that like to abuse our trucks on the street every day and race on the weekends will a built motor last at 700hp and also be able to rack up a few miles?

I consider Nick's truck very built and he is driving his every day and it dynoes way over 700 hp with his TTS tune. I happen to know Nick a little, and I don't think he drives like Miss Daisy.;) He has several thousand miles on his with numerous sled pulls and some drag racing thrown in. Not sure what setting he uses as his daily driver, but the big tune is only a flip of the switch away.:eek:

I know this hasn't been tested yet but...For us guys that like to abuse our trucks on the street every day and race on the weekends will a built motor last at 700hp and also be able to rack up a few miles?

So far Diesel Power has 14K on his motor since we built it. It has a A5K running 65 lbs boost, dual CP3's and he beats it daily, sled pulls with it on the weekend and does a drag race every once in awhile just to mix it up. Other than normal maintenance, problems since building the motor have been a water leak from the water pump, a transmission and a replaced belt. He can turn the power down at the flip of the switch but knowing him like I do I think its turn up most of the time.

Pending on Trippin or Cole, I should have some rods for my motor soon. My truck is up at MA. Eric is going to lower my compression by decking my stock pistons, install Crower rods, fix my cam and crank pins, install headstuds and put her back together. I am not doing any head work at all. I'm sure this truck should lay down numbers over 700RWHP with twins, DonM sticks, and ATS twin CP3's...along with some good olé EFI tuning. I want it to last at that power level, so we'll see what happens. I'm doing a bare bones build to see how it holds. Wish me luck! Eric said he would pull the motor next week and tear it down to inspect it. If all goes well and someone will sell me some rods, the build should be done in a couple weeks. I can't wait!

Good luck Bob:ro)

2007 will be a fun year to watch everything unfold. I'll just putz along with my stock blocked truck and work on my bracket racing technique.:D

I'll just putz along with my stock blocked truck and work on my bracket racing technique.:D

Can we get a "Poor IdahoRobbie" here?:D First time you go out and get smoked by one of these built up trucks, it's gonna kill you. Remember you don't have old Subman's gray crewcab to whip up on anymore.;) You get your reactions time down close to perfect and maybe Nathan & I will let you drive the MPI race truck?:rolleyes:

Can we get a "Poor IdahoRobbie" here?:D First time you go out and get smoked by one of these built up trucks, it's gonna kill you. Remember you don't have old Subman's gray crewcab to whip up on anymore.;) You get your reactions time down close to perfect and maybe Nathan & I will let you drive the MPI race truck?:rolleyes:

I had three .000 last year, how bout you?:D I'll head down and get fitted for my racing seat this week:eek:

me too.............

Talking about longevity and hp on these motors I have a few questions. First I run the bastard stack. Anyone know if the cylinder presuure on this stack is high or in the range were it shouldn't hurt anything? Also I run this stack everyday. I use my truck for work and personal use everyday. Pulls around #4500 almost everyday and will put around 20,000-30,000 miles on it this comming year. Right now it has 99,000 on it. I drive it normally with a light foot and never run the egts over 1200 when pulling. It pulls with ease on this setting so I've left it. I like having the power there when I need it when its unloaded and the milage it gets. The stack setting is 215 and edge on level 1 not on full tilt. Should I be worried about premature wear or life of the motor? Change my oil once a month whether it needs it or not. Tranny parts are almost all gathered up for build up but still haven't pushed it hard enough to limp the stocker and won't. Just want to make sure this truck lasts another 2 years.

thats what a lot of people(including myself) started on. things seem fine so far even with different tuning

Tranny parts are almost all gathered up for build up but still haven't pushed it hard enough to limp the stocker and won't. Just want to make sure this truck lasts another 2 years.

I'd say, if you're not running enough power and/or driving it right to limp the tranny, you'll have many happy miles ahead.

Its soooo hard to miss out on the power.. powering up... just comes soo easy.. :D

Other than the fact that Nick has internals, don't you guys think that maybe the key ingredient in making these motors last is the cylinder heads?

If you had a stock bottom end, but with ported heads and all the other goodies for big power, wouldn't there be a lot less failures @ these power levels b/c of less cylinder psi? Is it not the large amounts of boost making these things go kaboom? With ported heads, how much less boost could be ran and still make the #'s?

Other than the fact that Nick has internals, don't you guys think that maybe the key ingredient in making these motors last is the cylinder heads?

If you had a stock bottom end, but with ported heads and all the other goodies for big power, wouldn't there be a lot less failures @ these power levels b/c of less cylinder psi? Is it not the large amounts of boost making these things go kaboom? With ported heads, how much less boost could be ran and still make the #'s?

Quite a bit, Trippin has some data from dyno tuning we did on his truck and if wants to share it he can.

But you are correct that less boost is needed, whether or not less cylinder psi is correct is not the way to look at it. You need the correct cylinder psi at the right time........;)

I know someone on here has the formula to figure out how much cylinder psi some of these guys are roughly having inside of these motors.

It would blow your mind if you could see them.

26,000+ rail pressure/ 16.8 to 17.5 CR/ 59+ pounds of boost:eek: ... Yea, kaboom.

In reality, are we asking too much in trying to get all the fuel burned? Just b/c there's a puff or a little cloud of smoke doesn't mean you need to add more boost, does it?

ported heads=less restriction, maybe more air in the cylinder then . wouldnt lower compresion work better to lower cylinder pressure?

Would a custom grind cam work to help bleed off some cylinder pressure also?

You are fooling yourself if you think the stock internals will last pulling big numbers.

FWIW, the stresses on the internals go up roughly as the square of the increase in output torque. So make 2X as much power and increase stress about 4X. Most engineers put 6:1 or better safety factor in their designs. Go 3X or more, and you simply have to have stronger parts if you want to survive.

Spinning faster, as some have started to do also goes by the square stress wise. But that has not gotten out of hand as much as the torque has.

JMO

You are fooling yourself if you think the stock internals will last pulling big numbers.

FWIW, the stresses on the internals go up roughly as the square of the increase in output torque. So make 2X as much power and increase stress about 4X. Most engineers put 6:1 or better safety factor in their designs. Go 3X or more, and you simply have to have stronger parts if you want to survive.

Spinning faster, as some have started to do also goes by the square stress wise. But that has not gotten out of hand as much as the torque has.

JMO

I guess a word to the wise is if you'd like it to live past 150k is to STOP @ 500 rwhp. Hmmm.. seems like what a bunch of the guru's on here have been saying for some time now.

i wish i could just go back to when i had a completley reliable 500 rwhp daily driver. i'm in too deep now as well and it's damn hard to get out. mine's been running like azz ever since i did the big turbo and dual cp3's. yes my internals are stock and had i had the sense and wallet for it i most definetley would've had it built up. i got a good buy on the parts from dale and stopped there. so if i can shout out any advice to someone in my situation, if you don't have the funds to keep building your engine up STOP right there. either wait till you get the cash or leave your good running truck alone.

mine's been running like azz ever since i did the big turbo and dual cp3's.

Could you please explain what you mean by "azz" because I cannot determine how your truck has been running like with that adjective (sorry). Are you saying that it doesn't have power where you want it or, that it runs poorly at low RPM's, or that it demonstrates fueling or tuning "gaps" on certain bands?

Curious and any input you have would be helpful.

Thx
D

ok so if a guy is in deep, kinda. I want to know what kinda $$$$ most could say it would take to add internals to make this LLY last?

I see Socal Diesel, TTS and several others online with pricing but what about install?

Rods $?
Pistons $?
studs $650
And then of course to add a lil hp while you're in there you can add more.
Cam $700-?
Heads $2k-4k
cp3-$ too damn much
What about pushrods,springs,valves, rocker arm assembly, crank??
So if a guy just wanted to set it up for durability, not neccesarily performance, what would one spend in install?

I know once you're in there you might as well do it all, but for the budget racer, just rods,pistons and studs should do it, huh?
I've got some mechanical "expertise" so to say, and could rebuild my '65 283, but a little scared to try with the mighty expensive LLY.

So how much $$$$ to build it to withstand say even a daily 600-700hp??

While I agree that these motors, when pushed with big tunes, are at their limit, I disagree that they can't be ran at these levels safely on stock internals. Since a few high profile motors let loose, I guess it is now time for some people to admit that these engines do have a limit.

The risk when running a 500 hp tune on a motor with only a lift pump will be worse than running a 500hp tune with twin cp3's and a larger turbo, IMHO. You can enjoy your Dmax and get some great power out of the motor, you need to be smart about it too. #2 tuning is just like NOS, the guys that are smart about it and build their setups properly, usually have better results than those pushing the envelope for every last bit of power. The problem is, we all know what these damn things can do when you push them. Who wants a safe 600hp when you know you can get 800? Who wants to run a tenth slower than their buddy when they know they could lay a .5 second a$$ whoopin on them? It is all up to the owner of the truck. If you want a safe 500 hp truck, I believe you can build and tune it right and have one. Depending on how some of the new setups test out, it might even be possible to get 600rwhp without pushing the limits much. Time will only tell, but these motors sure are impressive! The year of the 1000HP Duramax could also turn into the year of the reliable 600hp Duramax if the truck owner builds it properly. The twin CP3 kits are going to be the key to reliable horsepower if it is used properly. Although engine modifications are going to be the best way to make reliable horsepower in the future, it is probably a good idea to let things live and cut back the power until some of these high dollar engine builds prove their worth. Cutting back the power does not mean you need to run a stock truck. Be smart about the decisions you make and you will be a very happy Duramax owner.

Flame on!
Good post! I have no idea what I'm running but it's up there and I don't run it everyday. I run a small tow tune daily and only flip the DSP2 when I have a punk next to me, or when I just get the itch.
I'm want to build this thing up though, so internals are in the plans. 600-700 or even more as a DD sure would be nice.

Good post! I have no idea what I'm running but it's up there and I don't run it everyday. I run a small tow tune daily and only flip the DSP2 when I have a punk next to me, or when I just get the itch.
I'm want to build this thing up t hough, so internals are in the plans. 600-700 or even more as a DD sure would be nice.

It's entirely possible to build a truck that can run at 700 hp daily and above 1000 hp top end. Time will tell. I saw this somewhere on a magazine and I am dying to see Gale Banks face if and when it happens.

It's entirely possible to build a truck that can run at 700 hp daily and above 1000 hp top end. Time will tell. I saw this somewhere on a magazine and I am dying to see Gale Banks face if and when it happens.
did you mean it is entirely "im" possible?? if so why? If not then what did you mean about BAnks facing?

MDE is supplying injectors for a race boat that runs over 700hp on each motor for endurance racing....and guess what motor it runs.............................................. .........A Dmax!


They can live, but the build and tuning has to be spot on.

Could you please explain what you mean by "azz" because I cannot determine how your truck has been running like with that adjective (sorry). Are you saying that it doesn't have power where you want it or, that it runs poorly at low RPM's, or that it demonstrates fueling or tuning "gaps" on certain bands?

Curious and any input you have would be helpful.

Thx
D
i believe as though i got a bad batch of fuel which crapped out my #5 and 6 injector. not sure but that's what it's looking like hopefully. could it be bent rods?? possibly, if it is i'm screwed and the truck will be sitting this pulling season.

Which is why, from a purely technical basis (and leaving my own brand loyalty aside), I'm wondering what the cost ratio is going to be to keep pulling competitively with a Dmax vs. a CTD.

I'm very concerned that if they can get the CR engine to turn 5k rpm, I could be in big trouble.

I'm just worried about dumping big bucks into something that has be be "just-so" and one little hairball sends it scattering.

The bottom line is, do we have the foundation to get us to 800-1000 reliable HP or not?

I love my truck and the crowds love to see a GM win, but I'm not about throwing money into something continuously either if it doesn't get me to the next level.

Talk me down, guys, I'm starting to turboventilate :o:

ok so if a guy is in deep, kinda. I want to know what kinda $$$$ most could say it would take to add internals to make this LLY last?

I see Socal Diesel, TTS and several others online with pricing but what about install?

Rods $?
Pistons $?
studs $650
And then of course to add a lil hp while you're in there you can add more.
Cam $700-?
Heads $2k-4k
cp3-$ too damn much
What about pushrods,springs,valves, rocker arm assembly, crank??
So if a guy just wanted to set it up for durability, not neccesarily performance, what would one spend in install?

I know once you're in there you might as well do it all, but for the budget racer, just rods,pistons and studs should do it, huh?
I've got some mechanical "expertise" so to say, and could rebuild my '65 283, but a little scared to try with the mighty expensive LLY.

So how much $$$$ to build it to withstand say even a daily 600-700hp??
For your budget number your lookin at about 5200 for rods,pistons,and studs.Install pending how you do it .If you have it balanced and clearanced and assembled some where around 1-5k pending how intrict the builder gets.If you want whole enchilda somewhere in the figure of 16-21k that doesnt include cp3,s or turbo.NLDP

Which is why, from a purely technical basis (and leaving my own brand loyalty aside), I'm wondering what the cost ratio is going to be to keep pulling competitively with a Dmax vs. a CTD.

I'm very concerned that if they can get the CR engine to turn 5k rpm, I could be in big trouble.

I'm just worried about dumping big bucks into something that has be be "just-so" and one little hairball sends it scattering.

The bottom line is, do we have the foundation to get us to 800-1000 reliable HP or not?

I love my truck and the crowds love to see a GM win, but I'm not about throwing money into something continuously either if it doesn't get me to the next level.

Talk me down, guys, I'm starting to turboventilate :o:





I'm betting on "Big Blue" to hold together as long as rpm's are kept at a reasonable level.
Now if it doesn't, I'm finding out today that an E-locker is a wonderful accessory on a plow truck! :D :D It got me out of a jam 3 times today.:eek: Pulling is a lot more fun. Hang in there.

Pistons are the only thing that is missing for building a really good bottom end IMO. Maybe we will see something by the end of the year.

Reving to 5K will take head and valve train work to stay together. Most of those parts are available right now, if only in first generation form. LB7s and LLYs may lose out here since they will be running close to the limits of their respective ECMs and FICMs. If I read the LBZ's spec sheet right, we should be able to get to 6k and stay in control of the fuel with it's electronics. Time will tell.....

So are we all convinced that the Dmax block is stable, and that the "kaplooeys" have been pretty much the fault of other component parts coming unglued?

I only have knowledge of one Dmax block where the main bearing webs broke, and that's Jeremy (HeartbeatCanada). It was later suggested that the cam gear pin might have led to that.

Do we have a good list of data of failed engines and what was the root cause?

I guess we can either look at this like the sky is falling, or, we could say we have problems 1, 2, and 3 solved, and the list of the "who knows?"

So are we all convinced that the Dmax block is stable, and that the "kaplooeys" have been pretty much the fault of other component parts coming unglued?

I only have knowledge of one Dmax block where the main bearing webs broke, and that's Jeremy (HeartbeatCanada). It was later suggested that the cam gear pin might have led to that.

Do we have a good list of data of failed engines and what was the root cause?

I guess we can either look at this like the sky is falling, or, we could say we have problems 1, 2, and 3 solved, and the list of the "who knows?"

Good idea keeping a list. Thought I'd bent a rod but at first inspection didn't look like it. Will know more when it is completely torn down. #8 had a lot of carbon built up on the top of the piston. Looking straight down on it the carbon was from about 2 o'clock to aboiut 9 o'clock. Maybe an injector, those are getting ck'ed now. Sucker was losing power and starting to make a vibration that I didn't like. Still ran a 12.2 on it's last run, smoking white at idle pretty bad in the staging lane too. Figured I was not far from gernading it so I quit. :(

I'm thinking the drive train will be the next weekest link on these new builds, input/outshafts, transfer case, drive lines axles, something. Wondering if these billet flex plates are really a good idea? They don't flex.

So are we all convinced that the Dmax block is stable, and that the "kaplooeys" have been pretty much the fault of other component parts coming unglued?

I only have knowledge of one Dmax block where the main bearing webs broke, and that's Jeremy (HeartbeatCanada). It was later suggested that the cam gear pin might have led to that.

Do we have a good list of data of failed engines and what was the root cause?

I guess we can either look at this like the sky is falling, or, we could say we have problems 1, 2, and 3 solved, and the list of the "who knows?"

The majority of engine failures are secret since they are used for marketing purposes.

We do not know why the compression is down on one cylinder on Casper, but I will tell folk when I find out. From what I can tell so far, it's NOT a rod.

Pistons are the only thing that is missing for building a really good bottom end IMO. Maybe we will see something by the end of the year.

Reving to 5K will take head and valve train work to stay together. Most of those parts are available right now, if only in first generation form. LB7s and LLYs may lose out here since they will be running close to the limits of their respective ECMs and FICMs. If I read the LBZ's spec sheet right, we should be able to get to 6k and stay in control of the fuel with it's electronics. Time will tell.....

Whats wrong with ross pistons?? Im pretty sure im going to run those myself.

I personally believe we are just experiencing "Horse Power growing pains"!:)

It won't be long and we will learn how to finesse the power out of these motors safely and make them live!;)

Whats wrong with ross pistons?? Im pretty sure im going to run those myself.
I think they are a little more strip/pulling only pistons.

Whats wrong with ross pistons?? Im pretty sure im going to run those myself.

The lack of under piston cooling means you can not make power for very long without burning them up. Strip use only. I don't know, maybe sled too, but those pulls tend to be a little longer.

Heat is a huge problem for Diesel pistons.

I think they are a little more strip/pulling only pistons.

Yeah i get that, but with the power numbers were talking, 800+ how many of these rigs will see much if any road? Mine is going to see quite a bit, but i feel that these pistons will be fine.

Yeah i get that, but with the power numbers were talking, 800+ how many of these rigs will see much if any road? Mine is going to see quite a bit, but i feel that these pistons will be fine.
Be sure to let us know how they work out. Will be interesting to see how they perform on a daily driver.

I think the biggest problem with the Ross pistons will be the keystone ring in the aluminum piston. There is no metal insert to combat wear. I have one truck that has been running them, I think he has about 3k miles on them and the Ford guys swear thats all a forged piston is good for. I am trying to arrange a time when we can tear the truck down for inspection to see how they are wearing.

):h Who designed the Ross pistons?

The risk when running a 500 hp tune on a motor with only a lift pump will be worse than running a 500hp tune with twin cp3's and a larger turbo, IMHO.

Who wants a safe 600hp when you know you can get 800? Who wants to run a tenth slower than their buddy when they know they could lay a .5 second a$$ whooping on them?

I disagree if you are talking about a stock engine. It is true that a bad tune with way too much timing will cause breakage, but the addition of a big turbo and dual CP3 pumps will put you over the edge of reliability on a stock engine. If you can get 500 HP on a stock engine with a good tune such as the Extreme, why spend the money on a turbo and CP3's? Having those items and staying at the 500 HP level will be like driving with a brick under your pedal only allowing you to use the first half of the travel. Like you said, what fun is that? A big turbo and CP3's will tempt you to use them causing breakage on a stock engine.

I believe you can build and tune it right and have one. Depending on how some of the new setups test out, it might even be possible to get 600rwhp without pushing the limits much.

The year of the 1000HP Duramax could also turn into the year of the reliable 600hp Duramax if the truck owner builds it properly.

If the owner builds it properly with rods and other internal upgrades.

The twin CP3 kits are going to be the key to reliable horsepower if it is used properly. Although engine modifications are going to be the best way to make reliable horsepower in the future, it is probably a good idea to let things live and cut back the power until some of these high dollar engine builds prove their worth.

I say don't even go there until you can afford to take the engine apart and build it. If you don't want to do that step away from the parts counter.* :D
*(Unless you are at the HDiesel parts counter.):p:


Maybe I am just interpreting you wrong, but I had to throw my .02 in to clear it up in my head.:ro)

Huck