Guys,

The drive pin in the camshaft seems to have become a real issue with our trucks. I thought I would post some photos of a simple set up fixture that you or your machine shop can build that will make the seemingly daunting task of installing a 5mm drive in place of the pin quite simple.

Square up an 8" x 8" piece of 1/2" aluminium.

Bore a 1.101 hole and then machine a 5mm groove on center.

Slide the fixture over the nose of the cam and pin (I used a gauge pin so my slot is longer) and then indicate the top of the fixture parallel to the bed of the mill.

Indicate the center of the pin hole and machine the slot for a 5mm drive key.

As set of V-blocks is nice but not necessary.

Hope this helps, feel free to call with any questions. :D

Pretty darn cool, Guy. I have a really (and I mean REALLY....) stupid question, though, as I am not a machinist.....

How do you machine the keyway when the fixture is in the way?

What do you have to do to the gear?

Pretty darn cool, Guy. I have a really (and I mean REALLY....) stupid question, though, as I am not a machinist.....

How do you machine the keyway when the fixture is in the way?

Actually a very good question, not all readers here are machinists.

The fixture is only for setup. It allows you to properly orient and postion the cam for drive key machining. You remove the fixture after set up.

What do you have to do to the gear?

No change to the gear is necessary, it already has a slot in it. The cam normally has a 5mm pin that is installed perpendicular to the rotational axis of the cam. The drive gear will shear this pin under certain circumstances. Installing a drive key will spread the load out over a much greater surface area.

There are other threads with pictures of this type of failure.

Thanks to Eric Merchant for bringing this to our attention and conception of this fix last year.

I had heard of how difficult that some considered this type of machining to be after the cam was ground.

I thought I would pass along one possible setup and machining solution to help people out that already had cams without the key installed.

Using an 8" square piece of stock makes repeatability excellent as far as indexing the cam goes with relation to the crank as we have extended the setup fixture well past the diameter of the cam gear.

Thanks Guy!, also if you dont mind...... what type of key do you use, i can see a woodruff key, but if you just use 5 mm keystock how do you secure it from walking out and causing catastrophic failure.

Thanks Guy!, also if you dont mind...... what type of key do you use, i can see a woodruff key, but if you just use 5 mm keystock how do you secure it from walking out and causing catastrophic failure.

I use 1/4" hardened key stock and then surface grind the width down to 5mm.

Thanks for the explanation Guy. Makes perfect sense now.

Just put bearing retainer or red loctite on the keystock?

I use a 3/16 EM and then machine for a .001 press fit. Whatever you do, don't use a 5mm EM.

nice fixture Guy.... Looks easier then our method of doing it with a dial indicator....

You have my UPS acct number and address...... (informally ordering this now)

How much would you charge to do this?? And that is a very good lookin cam you got their!

Bentley

Is that my cam? :D

This looks as though it carries over the poor factory tolerances on the pin location. Is there a way we can degree in the cam during installation to make sure its where we want it? Are there offset keys available? If so are they strong enough?

On the opposite end of the shaft are two index/drive holes. They should align with the pin/keyway on the stock cam. The pin is vertical when the piston is at TDC.

Ultimately however, you need to dial in the cam on the engine. To do it right, you need an adjustable cam gear and the cam timing spec.

Guy and I talked about this briefly just the other day. :)

This looks as though it carries over the poor factory tolerances on the pin location. Is there a way we can degree in the cam during installation to make sure its where we want it? Are there offset keys available? If so are they strong enough?

Rick,
Poor factory tolerances? It is actually a stacked tolerance between the crank pin, crank gear, cam gear, and cam pin. The same cam installed in 5 different engines could index in 5 different places with regard to crank angle.

Offset keys could be made but I think I have a better idea. ;)

Well Spill the Beans when you get a chance!!):h

Adjustable cam gears :D

Makes me want to go get a Type R sticker :D

Good idea. Should make things easier!

The alignment on the crank is the one that I worry about. It sets the timing for the reluctor wheel. At least that key is easy to index correctly. Like guy said, the cam has stack up issues to overcome.

Why not line up the v - blocks, indicate the cam journal for C/L then sweep in the pin hole. Or perhaps line up the v - blocks, indicate the cam journal for C/L then sweep a cam lobe that would be at the 12 Oclock position (prep to the table) to make sure the pin hole or slot would be in relation to the lobes? Same with the crank.

When the pins starts to shear, does it usually mess up the hole on the cam? If so your method wouldn't work correct? Are the stock cams just case hardened, or are they heat-treated through?

When the pins starts to shear, does it usually mess up the hole on the cam? If so your method wouldn't work correct? Are the stock cams just case hardened, or are they heat-treated through?

The cams are case hardened. When the pin begins to shear it does in fact distort the pin hole. There are many ways to find the proper postion of the hole when this happens.

I shared this fixture for those that want to DIY or have a local shop install a drive key for them in a new or good used cam.

There are obviously many different ways to set up and machine anything as well as many different what if scenarios.

So will your cams have this done from production or rework?

Found .005" deformation in cam pin hole. On a 5000mi LBZ engine! :eek:

Seems it starts to lean over shortly after first startup.

How much more additional cross sectional area does the key have over the pin?

Huge difference. A pin is round and focuses the force on a tiny area. Pins are not normally used for "drive" functions because of this. Even a square block the same size as a pin has a far higher durability when used as a drive feature.

Huge difference. A pin is round and focuses the force on a tiny area. Pins are not normally used for "drive" functions because of this. Even a square block the same size as a pin has a far higher durability when used as a drive feature.

Not true. IF the pin is a very close fit to the hole you are using the entire x-section of that pin. Look at a spanner wrench, it's a pin that is doing the driving and it will support huge loads. How long is the new key that is being used. If I had that info I could figure out the difference in area. I not saying a key isn't stronger, just saying a pin used correctly will get the job done.

Here is some #'s
5mm round pin= .0304 square inches
5mm square key .5 long= .0984 square inches Over 3 times the area, I think that should work very well.

Not true. IF the pin is a very close fit to the hole you are using the entire x-section of that pin. Look at a spanner wrench, it's a pin that is doing the driving and it will support huge loads. How long is the new key that is being used. If I had that info I could figure out the difference in area. I not saying a key isn't stronger, just saying a pin used correctly will get the job done.

Here is some #'s
5mm round pin= .0304 square inches
5mm square key .5 long= .0984 square inches Over 3 times the area, I think that should work very well.

When you push sideways on a pin, it acts like a wedge, applying most it's force on a small area. Any surface that is flat will resist deforming the hole that it's in much more. The pin did not bend on the cam I have, the hole it's in deformed.

The best spanners have a flat claw used on a milled slot. The weaker ones are pin-to-hole.

The problem is the round pin in the square hole. (keyway)

IIRC the hole in the camshaft is radiused pretty seriously which doesn't help much either...

The pin did not bend on the cam I have, the hole it's in deformed.


So are you saying it's not initially the pins fault, but the cams? Sound like to me the base material in the cam is not hard enough to support the pin in the 1st place. Which again the key spreads the load out over a greater area and again solves all the worries.

I don't have time now to do the math, but I could figure out at how much torque it would take to shear both the pin and key off in a perfect world.

IIRC the hole in the camshaft is radiused pretty seriously which doesn't help much either...

The problem is the round pin in the square hole. (keyway)

Now I see there is more to this

If you looked at it, it would look like the pin is just for "timing" the internal groove on the cam gear, but the retaining bolt allows rotational load. Unlike alot of cams that have 3 bolts in the end, the Dmax has just one because it's a hollow cam, so the bolt does not stop rotation.

When we started doing camshaft development for the duramax a few years back we had several factory camshafts tested for hardness. The camshaft itself is about HB 210. The lobes and bearing areas are case hardened to about HC 50 but the nose of the camshaft where this machining is going to be done is not case hardened. Since it is soft in this area it does not hold up well when trying to cut away about 1/2 the original thickness of the material along with the factory hole that goes completely through. This is also true for the forged camshafts from the aftermarket, the nose is not case hardened as we were part of that development team for those as well.

The hole on the factory camshaft is not straight through it is a stepped hole with a large chamfer (~.85mm deep) on the surface hole diameter and the 5mm hole goes ~3.8mm deep from the surface. Standard practice for a press pin is a minimum of 1.5 times the diameter of the pin and as you can see this is no where close. This pin is an alignment pin only not a drive pin and should not be used as anything else. Making the nose of the camshaft weaker by machining away this material is a bad thing to do.

... Making the nose of the camshaft weaker by machining away this material is a bad thing to do.


How many failures have you seen using the "keyway" method? Can you get the truck owners in here?

Banks puts woodruff keys in the endurance engines, and they claim to have no problems with that method.

If you looked at it, it would look like the pin is just for "timing" the internal groove on the cam gear, but the retaining bolt allows rotational load. Unlike alot of cams that have 3 bolts in the end, the Dmax has just one because it's a hollow cam, so the bolt does not stop rotation.

The bolt itself does not stop the rotational load but it is the main reason for stopping it. The rotational load is held back by the friction from the head of the bolt to the face of the camshaft sprocket then from the rear face of the camshaft sprocket to the face of the camshaft. This is why the bolt is so large and the torque of the bolt high. The pin is just there to locate the camshaft sprocket during installation.

The bolt itself does not stop the rotational load but it is the main reason for stopping it. The rotational load is held back by the friction from the head of the bolt to the face of the camshaft sprocket then from the rear face of the camshaft sprocket to the face of the camshaft. This is why the bolt is so large and the torque of the bolt high. The pin is just there to locate the camshaft sprocket during installation.

That may have been the intent, but it is not working well enough. You must key the gear if you want it to last. Either cut for a standard key, or drill through the cam gear into the shoulder behind and drive a pin into the hole(s).

That may have been the intent, but it is not working well enough. You must key the gear if you want it to last. Either cut for a standard key, or drill through the cam gear into the shoulder behind and drive a pin into the hole(s).

While I agree its not working well enough, were all running them well outside the original design area too. I'm all for improving the drive area but I'm not for making it weaker. Drilling into the front bearing face is the way to go and that is the reason we make all our cams this way.

I was always taught that a bolt doesn't locate it holds, a dowel or key locates?
A pin in a square hole doesn't have much surface area for contact. I think you guys are on the right track.

FYI....on a few of our engines (for the crank) we would heat the gear for a interference fit then put a couple of good tack welds
on it.

While I agree its not working well enough, were all running them well outside the original design area too. I'm all for improving the drive area but I'm not for making it weaker. Drilling into the front bearing face is the way to go and that is the reason we make all our cams this way.

Wait a minute here. On post #19 here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114504 you are talking about your "exclusive key-way drive", now you say a key will not work?

Most people only want/afford to do this once, so what's the deal, keyway, or face pins?

thanks

Making the nose of the camshaft weaker by machining away this material is a bad thing to do.

You have what 340°+ left of full thickness of the camshaft nose?

The gear is held on with what I would consider a massive bolt/washer that holds it flush and firm against the face of the cam journal. You have what 340°+ left of full thickness of the camshaft nose? So the direct shear strength doesn't change dramatically, and the "wobble" load is covered by the massive bolt/washer combination.


Thank you Guy for once again providing useful information and contributing to the Community.

Wait a minute here. On post #19 here http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=114504 you are talking about your "exclusive key-way drive", now you say a key will not work?

Most people only want/afford to do this once, so what's the deal, keyway, or face pins?

thanks

I am saying a properly done keyway works very well. Just like anything that gets done there is a good way and a bad way. If you remove most of the materail that supports the keyway it doesn't do well. If one was to look at our design you will see it is much different than what is being done here.


You have what 340°+ left of full thickness of the camshaft nose?

The gear is held on with what I would consider a massive bolt/washer that holds it flush and firm against the face of the cam journal. You have what 340°+ left of full thickness of the camshaft nose? So the direct shear strength doesn't change dramatically, and the "wobble" load is covered by the massive bolt/washer combination.

You are correct that the gear is held in with a massive bolt/washer but as we all know its not doing the job well enough. So now that we know it doesnt work why would you want to weaken the nose of the camshaft more than it was to begin with. The ID bore in this area of the nose is not supported by anything, it is clearance for the bolt to go into the camshaft. So by cutting away 1/2 of the material thickness for a standard key or cutting completely through it for a woodruff key you have greatly reduced it's strength.

So this "bad way" has been showing failures?

Or you saying that you believe your method is better, but you've never heard of a "Eric Style" woodruff failure either?

Make a fixture to hold the gear in relationship to the pin and edm another key 180 degrees from the pin in the gear and cut a keyway 180 degrees to the pin on the cam?
Just an idea guys?????

I am saying a properly done keyway works very well. Just like anything that gets done there is a good way and a bad way. If you remove most of the materail that supports the keyway it doesn't do well. If one was to look at our design you will see it is much different than what is being done here.




You are correct that the gear is held in with a massive bolt/washer but as we all know its not doing the job well enough. So now that we know it doesnt work why would you want to weaken the nose of the camshaft more than it was to begin with. The ID bore in this area of the nose is not supported by anything, it is clearance for the bolt to go into the camshaft. So by cutting away 1/2 of the material thickness for a standard key or cutting completely through it for a woodruff key you have greatly reduced it's strength.

The issue at hand is rotational force is it not? If we increase the surface area and surety with which the key is placed in the cam we've addressed this.

How will the camshaft itself fail?
Vertical shear isn't going to happen.

Side (wobble) load isn't going to happen.

Twist the snout of the cam? I don't think so...

Isn't this doing what you are saying is wrong or am I missing something here? It's hard to see in the picture.


Duramax Camshafts
Our exclusive precision ground and balanced camshafts are designed power and durability. We offer 3 versions: Street, Race and Xtreme.

Factory Cams use a single guide pin for cam gear placement. With increased power this becomes a weak point from shearing forces. TTS has strengthened this system into a keyway design in order to retain strength and reliability.


http://www.ttspowersystems.com/art/programmers/cam-detail.jpg

Isn't this doing what you are saying is wrong or am I missing something here? It's hard to see in the picture.


Duramax Camshafts
Our exclusive precision ground and balanced camshafts are designed power and durability. We offer 3 versions: Street, Race and Xtreme.

Factory Cams use a single guide pin for cam gear placement. With increased power this becomes a weak point from shearing forces. TTS has strengthened this system into a keyway design in order to retain strength and reliability.



http://www.ttspowersystems.com/art/programmers/cam-detail.jpg (http://www.ttspowersystems.com/art/programmers/cam-detail.jpg)
(Image has been resized. Click it for full size.)



Yes that's a top view of one of our camshafts, but what you fail to see is the end view. We donot cut away 1/2 the thickness of the nose of the camshaft to weaken it. We do cut about .025" from the surface but the keyway is also cut deep into the face of the camshaft where there is plenty of material. The key is then press fit into the face of the camshaft and guided by the .025 slot in the top of the nose.

The issue at hand is rotational force is it not? If we increase the surface area and surety with which the key is placed in the cam we've addressed this.

How will the camshaft itself fail?
Vertical shear isn't going to happen.

Side (wobble) load isn't going to happen.

Twist the snout of the cam? I don't think so...

If your trying to make people believe the only force involded here is rotational force you are saidly mistaked. The nose is there to also control the vertical movement and horizontal movement. If you split the nose by cutting through it or take away 1/2 of the base material you have greatly weakened it for all the forces applied.

SaguaroKid

Cutting the nose on one or both sides makes it just as weak if your going to cut it deep enough to hold all the force on the key/keys. The picture you drew of putting pins into the face of the camshaft is much better than cutting the nose.

If your trying to make people believe the only force involded here is rotational force you are saidly mistaked. The nose is there to also control the vertical movement and horizontal movement. If you split the nose by cutting through it or take away 1/2 of the base material you have greatly weakened it for all the forces applied.



No not trying to make people believe anything, and not sad either.

The uncontrolled force is the rotational force. This is what is shearing the pins and/or wobbling out the holes.

The vertical shear force will not be weakened significantly. It's just impossible for me to believe that the cam nose could be sheared off vertically any more easily with or without this keyway added.

The twisting or "wobble" force strength (say you grabbed the gear at 3 and 9 oclock and tried to push and pull alternately) is not greatly affected either. The bolt and washer cover this.

So what force is going to harm the modified cam snout that wouldn't hurt the original?

:lol:

C-ya

What is the diameter of the boss on the cam where the sprocket slides over, and what size thread is in the end?

Well, I'm going with an "Eric Style" since I'm not hearing of any problems with it.

I stopped by Guy Tripp's today and ordered the cam. The cam will have a woodruff key. Hopefully it will be a long time before we see how reliable it is, but either good or "bad" I'll report the results honestly. I can measure deformation down to .00002" if necessary. Yes, the number of zeros is correct. ;)

Stay tuned. Trying to make an endurance racing quality engine on a budget.

What is the diameter of the boss on the cam where the sprocket slides over, and what size thread is in the end?

As I recall the bolt is a 16 x 1.5 mm thread. The counterbore is 16.5 mm x 16 mm deep with a 18.5 mm 60 deg. countersink 3 mm deep. The boss is 28mm dia. on some of the OE camshafts and some are two different diameters 27 mm stepped to 28 mm with the step 10 mm down the boss. The boss is 19 mm long. The aftermarket cores are made one diameter.

While I agree its not working well enough, were all running them well outside the original design area too. I'm all for improving the drive area but I'm not for making it weaker. Drilling into the front bearing face is the way to go and that is the reason we make all our cams this way.

The cams that Eric noticed first were from STOCK engines. I was there.
5* deflection is what we measured. The bolt, no matter the torque, is inadequate to hold against the rotational forces on the gear in relation to the cam. Eric found the problem, and got mocked for it. :rolleyes:

Well, I'm going with an "Eric Style" since I'm not hearing of any problems with it.

I stopped by Guy Tripp's today and ordered the cam. The cam will have a woodruff key. Hopefully it will be a long time before we see how reliable it is, but either good or "bad" I'll report the results honestly. I can measure deformation down to .00002" if necessary. Yes, the number of zeros is correct. ;)

Stay tuned. Trying to make an endurance racing quality engine on a budget.

There havent been any problems with any of the engines done "Eric Style". The keyways are not cut completely through the end of the cam, but about 1/2 way through the sidewall of the nose, JUST LIKE TTS's. :rolleyes: How is that compromising the strength of the cam nose? Also, the gear is fitted to the end of the cam, completely encircling the nose, reinforcing the nose. Maybe Eric should have patented his idea to fix the cam, eh?

There havent been any problems with any of the engines done "Eric Style". The keyways are not cut completely through the end of the cam, but about 1/2 way through the sidewall of the nose, JUST LIKE TTS's.

This is a completely false statement. The TTS Key way is nothing like Eric does other than it is a key way. As you have correctly stated Eric cuts over half way through the cam nose and the one he pictured in his post used a woodruff key that the middle was completely through the camshaft nose. The TTS key is only cut .025" deep into the nose which removes about 7% of the material not over 50% in the key way area. We also cut into the face of the camshaft where there is plenty of material and press the key way deep into the face, Eric does not. This is where it's strength comes from.

This is a completely false statement. The TTS Key way is nothing like Eric does other than it is a key way. As you have correctly stated Eric cuts over half way through the cam nose and the one he pictured in his post used a woodruff key that the middle was completely through the camshaft nose. The TTS key is only cut .025" deep into the nose which removes about 7% of the material not over 50% in the key way area. We also cut into the face of the camshaft where there is plenty of material and press the key way deep into the face, Eric does not. This is where it's strength comes from.

Why push in thumbtacks with a sledgehammer?

ie - Over-engineering is not a virtue, it's a fault.

If Eric's method works, why would you reinvent the wheel?

I do not think it is over engineered at all. Since we were designing a new camshaft core why not make it as strong as you can, then there is no chance of problems. I know that weaking and already weak area is not a good thing to do when it does not need to be done. SaguaroKid has posted a much better way if your going to try to rework an OE style camshaft.

Given the depth of the slot broached into the cam gear you wouldn't be able to sink a 5mm square key any deeper than .025 into the cam core without having too much clearance between the key and the slot in the cam gear.

Precisely why I use a .250 key and surface grind one side to 5mm. This way I have more surface area of the key in contact with both the cam and the gear as opposed to one that is only .025 deep.

Using 5mm square stock you had no choice but to machine into the first journal to try and gain more contact/surface area. :eek:

Is either one right or wrong? Only time will tell if and when one design or the other, or both fails.

Perhaps both will work just fine and this is just another pointless discussion. :D

Sounds like another pointless discussion Guy.

FWIW, When I posted my findings over a year ago and was discredited, the fix at that time was the first thing we tried. Many methods have came and went since only for the simplicity of cutting it. I do have a few engines out there with the original style woodruff key cut and yanno what? They run just fine.

I've already posted pics on how we do them now and its just like Guy is doing them.

Sure is a big deal about all of it since those that have the exclusive and proprietary methods were the first to discredit the find. " you cant cut it after the cam is made or your not going to get it exact" Funny, its the same method for everybody doing it. Using a finished Camshaft and then cutting the key. I dont buy into the BS that Comp is doing any keyway cutting at all, they have said so many times at many different levels of corporate. I guess that arguement is futile too as its a he said/she said.

Back to the original point made 13 months ago, fix the f-in key, I dont care how you do it, just do it.

The only design in the camshaft core came from no one on this board. They are made less then an hour north of me, I've talked to them and there was little outside influence other then a stock cam provided.

Even if you did cut into the cam nose, how could you weaken it when there is no force on it? Remember, we already learned that the pin/key is only for alignment purposes, the bolt clamping force holds the gear in place....Or was there a change and I missed it?

Using a finished Camshaft and then cutting the key.

Let's just say you've missed it. I guess making the drawings and supplying them to the supplier does not count any more. You are correct that Comp does not do any key way cutting, we have it done before they go to Comp to grind our cores and they use special fixtures just for our cores to be ground. I do not know who you are calling but it must not be the engineering department at Comp. You might try giving Derick a call and he can explain it to you. Any time you machine something there are tolerances in the machining process so when you take a camshaft that has already been ground that has tolerances on it and you attempt to locate by the pin hole that is not necessarily in the right spot then cut a key way that again has some tolerances to it, the chance of a greater error for true location is much higher. Our method does make the location of the key to centerline much more accurate than trying to add it after the camshaft has already been ground. The grinding process is done from our pre-installed key. The whole reason were doing these things is to change from the factory design of an alignment pin to a drive key way. When making it into a drive key the force from the gear is place into the nose of the camshaft, just the reason you would not like to weaken it.

Precisely why I use a .250 key and surface grind one side to 5mm. This way I have more surface area of the key in contact with both the cam and the gear as opposed to one that is only .025 deep.

Using 5mm square stock you had no choice but to machine into the first journal to try and gain more contact/surface area.


I think you need to go back and review your math as your not event close to the surface contact we have in our drive method. If you use a .250 key and you sink it 1/2 into the camshaft you still only get a contact surface of .124 into each part for the length of the key you use. Ours on the other hand is .300 x .197 into the cam side plus the .025 in the cam for the length of our key. In the gear we have .172 for the length of our key.

I remember a phone conversation when it went from Comp and then to Compton for a keyway installation. Does it go back to Comp after that?

Lets keep the discussion going, but Please stop the pissing match.

There should not even be a debate. This thread is about how to machine a keyway in an existing camshaft. This can be done to stock cams as well.

There have been no known failures using Eric's method from what I gather. So the claim you need to purchase a special cam from a vendor or you're doing it "wrong" holds no water, and perhaps is another subject entirely.

The fact Guy Tripp took his time to post this thread to help us Dmax hotrodders (even his competitors) shows his character. Claims by people who are selling stuff and shouting "it won't work" shows it as well.

There should not even be a debate. This thread is about how to machine a keyway in an existing camshaft. This can be done to stock cams as well.

There have been no known failures using Eric's method from what I gather. So the claim you need to purchase a special cam from a vendor or you're doing it "wrong" holds no water, and perhaps is another subject entirely.

The fact Guy Tripp took his time to post this thread to help us Dmax hotrodders (even his competitors) shows his character. Claims by people who are selling stuff and shouting "it won't work" shows it as well.

AMEN! :ro) (It is almost sunday)

I remember a phone conversation when it went from Comp and then to Compton for a keyway installation. Does it go back to Comp after that?

The camshaft cores are made, the Key way is EDM into the core, the cores come to TTS for inspection and Key way installation. Then go to the grinder who grinds the cams to our specifications using the key to grind from. Not near the same process as taking a completed cam and adding a key way into the nose only afterwards. This takes more time but it insures the best possible tolerances along with the stronger piece to start with.

Steve, Your method is a little more time consuming, but I can see that every cam you make SHOULD be identical in relation to the keyway. The way it looks to me, Guy's setup (which this thread was origionally (sp?) about) looks like there is LITTLE room for error, but not much----a lot less than what you are going to get with a f'ed up dowell on top of the "stacked" tolerances b/t the crank, crank gear, cam gear, and cam. With all those stacked tolerances and the sloppy pin, there shouldnt be much of a difference between your way and Eric/Guys, correct?

BTW, I'm just a peon and dont know hardly anything about all of this, just trying to get things straight in my head.

This thread is now off limits to ALL FULL VENDORS except Trippin.

Members and Limited Vendors are welcome and even encouraged to continue discussion on and ONLY ON Trippin's product and ideas. Other Vendors are more than Welcome to start their own thread discussing their ideas and/or product.

Sorry Rick! I should have known better. I cant see there being a problem with either setup myself and it depends on what the builder feels comfortable with. If you think about what little load will actually be on the key, Its a non issue as long as its keyed, as the key is stronger than the pin. I would feel fine using Guys method in my own engine, and i plan too. It was good of him to post up such information as he certainly didnt have to.

Tripp, what, if any, variance in the existing pins alignment have you noticed?

Thanks Rick.