How hot do 6.2L's like there vegetable oil to be before it gets sent to the IP?

Most people say 160 degrees F or hotter.

I run mine at about 110 or 120 degrees and it runs fine, but I would like to get it a little bit hotter. I ran it without any heat at all for a while and it ran fine, but I'm not sure how long the injection pump would last like that. I've heard that they don't like the thick oil.

I have read that to be safe for all diesel engines the oil needs to be at least 180'F.
The 6.2 isn't picky about, any thing.
So we can say 180 at most and 110 at least.
I think 160 would be good?
I need to rig some thing up so I can do flow tests.

No, the 6.2 really isn't picky. Just about the only thing it is picky about is that it doesn't like any air bubbles at all in the fuel. One other thing I have found in my veggie oil experiments is that any restrictions in the fuel system are not good. It doesn't like to pull up oil that is very thick, and it is also very sensitive to clogged fuel filters.

110 is just something I made up, really. That's basically how hot it needs to get so that the lift pump will pull the oil up in colder weather (40 F). I would rather have it closer to the 160-180 degree range.

Of course, my veggie setup is about to undergo some major upgrades... The new setup is going to be completely thermostatically/electronically controlled and almost completely automatic. It will also add the capability to run veggie in weather barely above zero (F). Instead of using coolant heat alone to heat the oil it is going to use a combination of coolant and electric heaters. Now if I could only find time to build it... :rolleyes:

How hot do 6.2L's like there vegetable oil to be before it gets sent to the IP?

It's not really a matter if the engine likes it, or not. It's injection pump life. A rotary type injection pump is absolutely the worst candidate to use with vegetable oil. All 6.2s and 6.5s have rotary pumps. I suspect though, that short pump life often goes unnoticed. A Stanadyne pump used properly with good fuel and correct temperatures can often last over 200,000 miles without a teardown - but often the timing advance housing gets worn and sluggish by the 100K mark. Use the same pump with vegetable oil, and often the life of the pump is cut in half or less. So, how many are going to notice a pump going bad in 75K or 100K instead of maybe 200K? Not many, I suppose. There has been a lot of metal-parts wear testing done by the U.S military and also many agencies in Europe and a few third-world places. Threre are many more diesel cars and trucks in other parts of the world - so pump wear in those areas gets much more attention. There is a lot of scientific data to support the wear problem with certain alternative fuels. But, that being said - when you can buy a "rebuilt" pump for $300 - maybe it doesn't matter anyway. You could save quite a bit of money using alternative fuel - if you do it correctly and get the oil for free.
In regard to running on it - main hurdle is cold starting - and cold weather. Just like the old multi-fuel farm tractors built in the 30s, twin fuel tanks are needed. Start on diesel, then once warmed up, switch over to the alternative fuel, and switch again before shutting down.
Back to pumps - in-line piston pumps last much longer than rotary pumps - with any kind of fuel. If you had an in-line pump on a 6.2 (there is no such thing though) - there would be a separate fuel injection pump for every cylinder instead of one dual-plunger pump doing all the pumping for all eight cylinders. So, that alone makes the in-line pump much more durable. Some Mercedes, Isuzus, Cummins, Detroits, Fords, etc. use in-lines. The rotary pump can have wear problems with alternative fuel in the distributor section of the pump - and an in-line pump has no distributor. This section in the rotary pump (head & rotor) is also the most expensive part - and if you sieze your's up - many pump shops will not accept your old pump for a core.

Most of the problems with injection pump wear on veggie oil are due to poorly filtered fuel. With clean oil the pump can last as long (or longer) on veggie than it will on #2 diesel.

Most of the problems with injection pump wear on veggie oil are due to poorly filtered fuel. With clean oil the pump can last as long (or longer) on veggie than it will on #2 diesel.

Seems your test results differ from those the US Government, Stanadyne, Cummins, CAV and many places overseas have done.

There is ample scientific evidence that shows the increased wear patterns due to the lubicosity differences in most blends of SVO and many temperatures. Overseas they usually add canola oil to bring the lube specs up. Yes, of course temperature and filtering is an added problem - but not the only one. Such problems exist with any fuel - not just vegetable oil.

Also, running diesels on alternative fuel - in this country - seems to be a new thing to many people. It's been done for well over a 100 years. But, the rotary pump was not invented and put into common use until 45 years ago - and alternative fuel use in rotary pumps is sort of a new thing.

I suspect you are offering anecdotal information on the subject. If not - tell me what data you are using. Have you driven your truck 200,000 miles on SVO?

Have you driven your truck 200,000 miles on SVO?


No. Have you?

Veggie oil is actually a better lubricant than diesel fuel and when it doesn't have a bunch of dirt in it the injection pump will last at least as long running veggie as it will on diesel. The dirt in the veggie is what kills the pump, not the oil itself. It is stupid to think that the oil makes the pump wear faster.

New IP around $260.
Now use free fuel and have it have it last 100,000 miles
Or
Keep pumping diesel in there at the rate of around $2.50 a gallon and have the IP last maybe up to 200,000 miles.
Hmmmmmmm.
I have a nice 5 mic filter laying in one of my tool chests collecting dust, I will incorperate into my design.
I was just going to use another G3 or G12 pre filter just to catch the trash but I will add in the fram 5 micron too.

No. Have you?
It is stupid to think that the oil makes the pump wear faster.

Hmmm - I guess to you - "oil is oil" and it's all the same. Good thinking, do you dump deep-fry oil into your crankcase? That sounds pretty silly to me. Either you are ill-informed, or your grasp of knowledge greatly exceeds mine and I simply cannot comprehend all this.

I have worked on several injection pumps that failed after longterm use of heated and filtered deep-fry oil from Mcdonalds et al. I know people that were running on waste oil back in the 1960s in Mercedes cars. Later pumps I've worked on with waste-oil use include one from a 6.2 GM, two from 7.3 Fords, one Diesel Kiki, and several from Bosch VE rotaries on Volkswagens. But, I can say the same for pumps run on pump-diesel. My first-hand experiences with such things are not scientific - since there are no "controls" involved. I cannot verify actual miles, fuel quality, etc.

"Word of mouth" about such things is often interesting and useless at the same time. Few people using watse oil and driving diesels know much about the internals of their injection pumps or the actual chemical content of the fuel being used. I worked as a pump rebuilder and a diesel mechanic for close to 40 years - and there's lots I don't know. That's why, to a degree, I rely on scientific testing done by large agencies. Yeah, they often have their own agenda and fudge things a bit - but there are some things they cannot lie about.

I don't know where you get your waste-oil - but I suspect you have little control over it's content. McDonalds is in the process now of changing their deep-fry oil chemical content. It is better of worse? Are you read up on it? Many types of bio-oils are better for lubrication than standard pump diesel - e.g. rapeseeds, soy, canola, etc. So, when someone talks about the pros and cons about any type of SVO, you have to know exactly what sort of blend is being discussed. Some SVO blends are very good and better for pump life than pump diesel-fuel. And others are terrible. Stanadyne is coming up with fuel additives - to put into low-sulfur pump diesel - made from bio-deriviatives e.g. rapeseed and soy.

Again - of all the pump designs - rotaries are the most intolerant to alternative fuels in regard to wear. That is an undisputed fact and easily verified. But, in regard to Stanadyne, they've had many problems with thin or certain low-sulfur diesel fuels right from the pump. The SVO thing is in addition to all that. I don't consider it a problem worth worrying about - since I do all my own repair work. And, even for someone that might have to buy a rebuilt pump every 100K - it's not necessarily a big deal. There is cost-savings potential for using waste-oil depending on how it's done and used. But, many times there is no savings at all - in the long run.
Here's a piece of an article about the postive benefits of some types of bio-additives - much of this from Stanadyne Corp.

.. "In the Stanadyne White paper on diesel fuels, it reports that "problems with increased wear have been encountered in both countries (Sweden and Canada). Wholesale introduction of the low sulphur fuel in Sweden had disastrous effects on diesel engine operation and resulted in a crisis situation for Swedish refiners and a European rotary fuel pump manufacturer. Swedish refiners are now using additives to prevent excess wear in fuel injection systems and their problems are apparently under control. Certain major Canadian refining companies are adding lubricants before delivering fuels to the customer."(11)
Fuel injection manufacturers have adopted the use of the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR) to test the lubricating properties of diesel and have recommended that all diesel fuel meet a minimum limit of 460 micron maximum Wear Scar Diameter (WSD). For the HFRR test, a lower scar measurement indicates better lubricity in the fuel.
Stanadyne Automotive Corporation, one of America’s largest fuel injection manufacturers, has been testing Bio-diesel at varying concentrations as a fuel additive in both Number 1 diesel (kerosene) and Number 2 diesel (fuel manufactured to meet the 500ppm maximum sulphur content).
Their test results showed that for Number 1 diesel (kerosene) the addition of 2% bio-diesel reduced the HFRR wear scar diameter to 355 microns while the addition of 1% bio-diesel to Number 2 diesel, reduced the wear scar diameter to 321 microns.
Based on the HFRR tests conducted by Stanadyne, they issued the following statement.
"…we have tested bio-diesel at Stanadyne and results indicate that the inclusion of 2% bio-diesel into any convention diesel fuel will be sufficient to address the lubricity concerns that we have with these existing diesel fuels. From our standpoint, inclusion of bio-diesel is desirable for two reasons. First it would eliminate the inherent variability associated with the use of other additives and wether sufficient additive was used to make the fuel fully lubricious. Second, we consider bio-diesel a fuel or a fuel component-not an additive…Thus if more bio-diesel is added than required to increase lubricity, there will not be the adverse consequences that might be seen if other lubricity additives are dosed at too high a rate."
As we move from low sulphur diesel to ultra low sulphur diesel (which has a maximum sulphur content of 15ppm), the quality of diesel fuel will worsen, and all that will be necessary to counteract the associated problems is to elevate the level of bio-diesel.(12)
A recent research project funded by the Saskatchewan Canola development Corporation, to evaluate the efficiency of commercial and vegetable based lubricity additives found that Canola Methyl Esters (CME) and a Canola Oil Derivative (COD) preformed the best in these lubricity tests. The CME’s were effective at treatment rates as low as 0.1% (1000ppm) and were shown to be very cost effective.
The project concluded that, "The application of Canola based lubricity additives in both unadditized and commercial low sulphur diesel fuels has been shown effective in reducing engine wear by as much as one-half, thereby potentially doubling diesel engine life. Fuel economy gains of up to 13% have also been recorded… The engine wear reductions and fuel economy improvements appear to be directly related to diesel fuel lubricity.
Based on these encouraging research results, it is concluded that the Canola lubricity additives could extend diesel engine life and fuel economy when applied in hydro treated, low sulphur diesel fuels. It would seem prudent for refiners to more thoroughly investigate, and seriously consider the production and introduction of these effective Canola based lubricity additives to their future mid-distillate fuels."(13)

(11) Stanadyne White Paper on diesel fuel. Low Sulphur Diesel requires Additives to Preserve Fuel Lubricity
(13) Hertz, B. Extending Diesel Engine Life And Fuel Economy With Canola Based Fuel Additives. University of Saskatchewan.
(17) Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils, project FAIR-CT95-0627
(18) Beggs, R E. 1997. Renewable oil fuels and diesel engines as components of a sustainable system design. BES, University of Waterloo

New IP around $260.
Now use free fuel and have it have it last 100,000 miles
Or
Keep pumping diesel in there at the rate of around $2.50 a gallon and have the IP last maybe up to 200,000 miles.
Hmmmmmmm.
I have a nice 5 mic filter laying in one of my tool chests collecting dust, I will incorperate into my design.
I was just going to use another G3 or G12 pre filter just to catch the trash but I will add in the fram 5 micron too.

I've got no argument with that. If you can get free oil that's close by, it can save you a lot of money. Pump diesel here at the moment is $2.90 per gallon and off-road diesel is $2.40.

New IP around $260.


I doubt your $260 pump is new. That's another thing that can screw up success or failure stories about longevity of injection pumps. I don't believe you're going to find a new Stanadyne DB2 pump anywhere new for $260 - except for a few un-warranted military suplus units. Last I heard prices start in the $900 price range for new ones fresh from Stanadyne. I'll buy ten of them, right now, if you've got them for $260 new. The "exchange" pumps sold in the $250 - $350 price range do not get all the moving parts replaced. In fact, some of the most expensive and major parts get reused - over and over. So, when you buy a $260 pump you are buying a used pump that has had several small parts and seals replaced, tested and adjusted to perform properly when you get it. Many if not most do not have the longterm projected life as a brand-new pump. In fact, read the small print from most pump shops - and youll often find that you do NOT get your core credit if certain major parts are bad in the pump you want to trade in. Next time you buy an exchange pump, ask if it's warranteed for vegetable oil use.

That compounds reports of failed pumps - unless they are on brand new vehicles. Otherwise, it gets kind of hard to tell what caused what, and when.

When it comes to savings - some people want to buy a diesel and run veg. oil and know nothing about any of it. Often they are paying a shop rate somewhere of $80 per hour for any installation, repair or diagnosis. And, sometimes buying - premade - hyped-up fuel treatment equipment. These types of users often lose money in the end - sometimes lots of it.
A person that knows diesel mechanics and does his/her own work is a whole different story. And with the 6.2, parts are pretty easy to find and cheap.

I've been using waste oil since the early 70s - including cooking oil, waste motor oil, etc. But for me, unless I get it locally - it's hardly worth the bother anymore. What was once a good thing is quickly getting ruined - partly because so many people want to bring attention to the whole deal. Many places in my area no longer just give the waste oil away. Theres a company 100 miles from me now - that has gone into business refining and selling, at the pump, bio-fuel. They have started buying up serveral types of farm bio-fuel ingredients including soy, grass, and corn, and well as paying a small fee for waste cooking oil. They are currently selling their bio-fuel for around 10 cents more per gallon than diesel - and people buy it. And, then there's the tax thing. Not a problem here in the US - yet . . . but just wait. In England, it is now illegal to use cooking oil for fuel - because it's considered tax evasion. If enough people get using biofuel - there will surely be a tax put on it. And, when bio-fuel goes full scale - it will be a total losing proposition. There will be more petroleum used to produce the "bio-fuel" than it would take to just make good-old-fashioned diesel fuel. I own a farm and try to keep up with all the bio-trends. Dairy farming is just about dead here - and the only profit from making milk is from government subsidies. I am also a maple syrup producer - and use a lot of waste oil for that. I'm in central New York, and there are many efforts being made to get farmers to grow corn, soy, and perennial grass for bio-fuel production. And, this farming gets done with fertilizers made from pertroleum, tractor fuel made from petroleum, pesticides made from pertroleum, refining processes run on petroleum, and electricity made with buring coal.

but your own quote says

"…we have tested bio-diesel at Stanadyne and results indicate that the inclusion of 2% bio-diesel into any convention diesel fuel will be sufficient to address the lubricity concerns that we have with these existing diesel fuels. From our standpoint, inclusion of bio-diesel is desirable for two reasons. First it would eliminate the inherent variability associated with the use of other additives and wether sufficient additive was used to make the fuel fully lubricious. Second, we consider bio-diesel a fuel or a fuel component-not an additive…Thus if more bio-diesel is added than required to increase lubricity, there will not be the adverse consequences that might be seen if other lubricity additives are dosed at too high a rate."

Which says that veggie oil is more lubricious than low sulfur petro-diesel. Reading futher, they call out Canola specifically... So, it leaves me unsure.

but your own quote says
Which says that veggie oil is more lubricious than low sulfur petro-diesel. Reading futher, they call out Canola specifically... So, it leaves me unsure.

What they are referring to - is certain vegetable oils that have excellent lubrication - certainly not all vegetable oils. Stanadyne wants to use some of them as an lube-additives to mix with ultra-low sulfur 2007 pump-diesel. I supect part of that is so they can sell something that sounds "green" and environmentally friendly. The generic term "vegetable oil" has little meaning in itself. Same for other terms like "bio-fuel", SVO, or "Willy Fuel" (Willy Nelson's bio-fuel). Rape seed, soy, and canola are some of the most commonly used at present that are known for good lube. I've got test specs. on over fifty types of grains, grasses, and beans that have been experimented with all over the world. Some forms of waste cooking oil has low lube qualities. I kind of wonder now, with cooking oil chemistry changing, if it's going to be better, worse, or the same. The standard "trans-fat" oil has been banned in New York City. McDonalds is also dropping it, and other's will follow.
For bio-derived fuel, the search is on for something that virtually grows by itself and makes good fuel. Corn doesn't work - since it takes a lot of petroleum to grow it. In New York, perennial grasses are being experimented with. I was looking into it myself - and if the government subsidies get high enough - i might try to grow some.

When it comes to buying fuel - it's not always easy to know what you're getting - even with pump diesel and all the recent changes that have been made. I suspect though, it's even harder to know what you're gettting with cooking oil and such.

For bio-derived fuel, the search is on for something that virtually grows by itself and makes good fuel. Corn doesn't work - since it takes a lot of petroleum to grow it. In New York, perennial grasses are being experimented with. I was looking into it myself - and if the government subsidies get high enough - i might try to grow some.

you should look into algae, its another alternative source with the highest amount of oil production (only with a certain type of algae).

Dairy farming is just about dead here - and the only profit from making milk is from government subsidies. Then your doing something wrong there is plenty of money in farming if you you do it rightAnd, this farming gets done with fertilizers made from pertroleum, tractor fuel made from petroleum, pesticides made from pertroleum, refining processes run on petroleum, and electricity made with buring coal.
Cow manure and crop rotation.

Biofuels.

There are plenty of natrual and organic pesticides.

That can be done on farm using alternative energy and you can make even better profit.

Well you can use solar, water, wind, bio diesel and a good old fashioned generator.

The $260 IP's I have seen on ebay, rebuilt, $100 core no more then 30 days on the core charge.
By new I ment they work.

one thing i can add is that most of the companies that make IP's and engines, for that matter, are totally clueless about the use of alternative fuels. They don't care because they don't make money off it. I talked to someone from tech support at stanadyne and all he said was that you can only use B5 in their pumps "because of lubricity". He didn't have a clue what he was talking about, just reading from a joint statement made by several IP companies who are all equally clueless because they have not done much research at all.

Another thing i can say is there are a lot of people running veggie through their pumps that have no idea how much emulsifed water could be going through because they do not properly dewater their oil even though they filter it. Free water will stop a pump like ours immediately but emulsifed water will damage it more slowly. I suspect that is a major factor in what shortens the life of these pumps and probably has a lot to do with what jdemaris is talking about.
Properly heated, filtered and dewatered wvo should, in theory, not shorten the life of an IP and could possibly make it last longer. I have read a lot of cases of failed IP on the various forums but most of them were due to mistakes in the filtration part of it.

A good idea for anyone running wvo is to install a temp sensor just before the IP, even a cheap engine water temp probe from autozone for like $16.99, mounted in a T with insulation, will give a pretty good idea of how hot the veggie is.

-Paul

Then your doing something wrong there is plenty of money in farming if you you do it right
Cow manure and crop rotation.

I think you're dreaming. Doesn't sound like you know very much about dairy farming in the northeast. If the plug was completely pulled on government backing on milk-prices supports, the remainder of the few dairy farms would be gone. My town had fifty large dairy farms 20 years ago, we now have three left -and they're struggling. And, they are only surviving because they own most everything and are not burdened with debt. Same goes for farm equipment dealers. I worked for a John Deere dealer unit the place closed in 1991. 30 years ago - we had a Case, Allis Chalmers, Ford, Deere, and an International Harvester tractor locally - now they are all gone. Even the Agway stores are gone.
Even Gerber babyfood is leaving. They've had huge fields here for years -but are pulling out after deciding that northeast farming is not cost-effective.
You don't seem to know much about cow manure either. A typical mid-sized 75 cow dairy farm might have 150 acres in corn, hay and alfalfa on any given year. 75 cows can't even come close to providing enough manure to enrich the soil to grow corn. And hay? It needs nitrogen - and also tons of lime every few years to keep the soil from getting too acid. And - back to those 75 cows - they need good grain to make milk - and grain prices are high. Every farmer spreads all the manure on at least a daily basis, and crops are always rotated to an extent. But - dairy farming requires certain types of crops - and when a person is farming his/her own land - you can only rotate just so-much. Out west where there if Federal land to use, things can be a little different.

Farming is also very labor intensive, and it's getting impossible to hire anyone for farm work for many reasons, financial and safety related. Traditionally, many farms were generations, and the whole family worked them. Not anymore - except for a few of the Amish farmers we have in the area.

Why don't you come to this part of the Northeast and tell all the farmers, and-exfarmers - and corporations like Gerber - what you know - that they don't.



Biofuels.

There are plenty of natrual and organic pesticides.

That can be done on farm using alternative energy and you can make even better profit.

Well you can use solar, water, wind, bio diesel and a good old fashioned generator.

Yeah - you're dreaming again. Price some of the organic supplies. There are a few small scale specialty crop farms that focus on niche products - e.g. organ peanut pototoes, certified organic beef, etc. When they have contracts with specialty buyers - then they CAN affort organic supplies, and/or use farming methods such as culivation and intercropping. But, it's not viable on a large scale. The small specialty operations come and go, all the time, as demands and fads change.

And, your comments about solar, water, wind, etc. ?? I think you're still dreaming. A typical solar-electric installation in a good sun area will pay for itself in around 30 years. Installation cost is usually around $8 per watt. Average farm uses over 1500 KWH per month. Do the math. To even come close to meeting that electric demand, you'd need a 20,000 - 30,000 watt photo-voltaic system. A 30,000 watt system could cost close to $250,000. It's a nice thing to have for independence, but does not provide cheaper electricity than is currenty available from the grid. I've got a 4200 watt grid-tie solar electric system here, and a 2000 watt off-grid system at my other place up north. My wife is an asst. director of a water-powered grist and saw mill. And generators ? I've got half a dozen - a 20 KW detroit diesel power 1300 RPM genset., a Homelite 4400 watt portable, a Fairbanks Morse 15 KW Contiental powered genset. a PTO power 13 KW generator, and a few assorted small ones. Funny thing I've noticed with all - they all use fuel.

Properly heated, filtered and dewatered wvo should, in theory, not shorten the life of an IP and could possibly make it last longer. I have read a lot of cases of failed IP on the various forums but most of them were due to mistakes in the filtration part of it.

:exactly:

Hmmm - I guess to you - "oil is oil" and it's all the same. Good thinking, do you dump deep-fry oil into your crankcase? That sounds pretty silly to me. Either you are ill-informed, or your grasp of knowledge greatly exceeds mine and I simply cannot comprehend all this.

Did I say that all oils are the same? No. Would I run an engine with veggie as lube oil? Definitely, if I could find a veggie oil that was thick enough at high temperatures (and I wouldn't be the first one to do it, either). Most veggie oils get very thin at high temperatures so they aren't suitable for that application.

I don't think that all oils are the same (they are obviously not). It is absolutely stupid to think that an oil with a better lube property than another is going to cause something to wear more. There is no reason it should if the two oils are both clean, dry, and the same viscosity.


I don't know where you get your waste-oil - but I suspect you have little control over it's content. McDonalds is in the process now of changing their deep-fry oil chemical content. It is better of worse? Are you read up on it? Many types of bio-oils are better for lubrication than standard pump diesel - e.g. rapeseeds, soy, canola, etc. So, when someone talks about the pros and cons about any type of SVO, you have to know exactly what sort of blend is being discussed. Some SVO blends are very good and better for pump life than pump diesel-fuel. And others are terrible. Stanadyne is coming up with fuel additives - to put into low-sulfur pump diesel - made from bio-deriviatives e.g. rapeseed and soy.

Trust me... I am plenty well read on this subject. I am using a canola oil from a coney island. True, I have very little control over the oils content when I pick it up, but before it goes in my tank I know exactly what is in it. The truth is this... Most veggie oils are a much better lubricant than any ordinary diesel fuel. What makes the pump wear isn't the oil, it's the contaminants and water (as GREASE FIRE pointed out). If you have clean, dry oil it won't hurt the pump at all.

I finished building my 1500w heated Vacuum drying tank.
It will process 3 to 3.5 gallons at a time.
After I wash the fuel and put it in there the vacuum will lower the boiling point of water to about 160'F and help draw off the water vapor.
Clean fuel, still working on that.
Dry fuel, done.

Did I say that all oils are the same?


Yes, in a way you did. You wrote -

"It is stupid to think that the oil makes the pump wear faster."

I say it is equally "stupid" to generalize. Some waste vegetable oils will cause metal parts wear, just as some motor oils will and just as some diesel fuels from the pump will. There are many variations with all.

Since you state you are well read on the subject, than I assume you already know this. I also assume you know that rotary pumps are more prone to wear from thin or low-lube fuels than in-line pumps are.
That's been a problem since they were first invented. In fact, when Vernon Roosa demonstrated his first rotary pump ca. 1952 - in efforts to sell it - it siezed -and fuel related wear has been an issue ever since. He invented the Stanadyne pump we use today. It was used in cars and trucks - not because it was durable - it was used because it's compact and cheap.



I am using a canola oil from a coney island. .


Coney Island Park in Brooklyn, NY? I didn't know it even existed anymore - I haven't been there since the early 50s. Or are there more Coney Islands?

I talked to someone from tech support at stanadyne and all he said was that you can only use B5 in their pumps "because of lubricity". He didn't have a clue what he was talking about, just reading from a joint statement made by several IP companies who are all equally clueless because they have not done much research at all.

-Paul

I come across that sort of thing with many major companies. Seems to get worse all the time. I suspect that in many cases, these companies have a good knowledge and research base - but you'd hardly know it judging by some of the people you have to talk to. Working your way into it can be close to impossible sometimes.

My father-in-law retired from Ford in Dearborn recently. He was a truck design engineer and really knows his stuff. He's told me many times - that when he was working on a particular project within Ford - HE had trouble getting accurate information from other Ford people within the company.

When I worked for Deere - we'd have a problem with a new tractor or engine - call Deere Co. and they'd send over an engineer or two. Often these guys couldn't even sit in a tractor and figure out how to start it - much less troubleshoot a problem. But - somebody - somewhere was designing and building pretty good tractors within Deere - so I see it as an info-disconnect.

you should look into algae, its another alternative source with the highest amount of oil production (only with a certain type of algae).

I think you're thinking ethanol for the algae. I read about it on earthsky.org but can't find it now :(

wait, check it out.. it does BOTH! Algae the magical fruit!

http://www.earthsky.org/radioshows/50927/algae-shows-promise-as-renewable-fuel

wow - this is a great discussion! one of the more lively ones to come up here. I just hope the moderator doesn't move it to the alternative fuels section where it will get buried - that section is so far down on the list i can't even find it down there half the time.

I am interested to hear more about oil pan's vacuum dewatering system. I know there are lots of people trying to do that but i have not heard of a whole lot of success stories. From what i understand, the water vapor has to pass through the vacuum pump as it gets evacuated, and not all vacuum pumps can handle this. Is this true? Can you provide any more details on your setup oil pan?


Jdemaris sounds like a real old-school greaser. I would be interested to hear more about his experiments since he has been at it a lot longer than most people. How many miles, how many engines, pumps, etc. would all be of great interest to me.

thanks,
Paul

superjeer, the algae can be used for either diesel or ethanol, just as other plants can. the differences are the amount of oil produced, and the growth rate of the plants. algae produces far more oil than any other plant, plus it grows at a phenominal rate. once you have the oil from the algae, to use it in a diesel engine its all set to go just like new veggy oil, just needs to be heated. turning it into biodiesel is as simple as turning veggy oil into biodiesel as well.

the dewatering system, tell us more oil pan. i didnt have much luck seperating the water from my veggy oil when i made biodiesel, curious how well your setup works.

jdemaris, i agree rotary pumps dont last near as long as inline pumps do. however, if you have clean veggy oil running through the pump, which provides more lubrication than petroleum diesel, the pump should last longer because of the extra lubrication. assuming your able to remove the impurities from the oil before it reaches the pump, and the oil is heated to high enough temps to flow easily. however, most people dont remove enough impurites from the oil, such as water, or the oil is too thick for the pump because its not hot enough, thus requiring more work for the pump to move the fuel through the system, and wearing it out faster. i'm assuming thats the reason for the failures that you came across when you were rebuilding pumps, impurities that forced the pump to work harder, thus causing more wear.

all i can add to this discussion is this. I worked with a guy that used mcdonalds and other fast food deep fryer oils to run his tractors and trucks for years. he has an 01 cummins 24v with KNOWN i/p problems, been running for years on the stuff, actually runs better and quieter than #2 fuel. he explained his process and showed me his setup but i dont remember exactly how he does it. i know it involves a water heater, a few big tanks, lye, pumps, etc etc. we set a gallon of it outside in temps around 30 degrees and it poured out in the morning as easy as #2 would. i know this guy filters the oil through a screen..then adds a certain amount of water to the oil, runs and air pump to the bottom of the tank and airates it for a few hours...or overnight..dont remember. something to do with impurities attaching to the oxygen molecules in the water as it bubbles and all the 'dirt' goes to the bottom where he then drains it out. then he heats it up, adds lye...and thats where he lost me. anyway, he runs his 01 dodge on it, 4 tractors, 2 bailers, and 3 combines on it and has never had a single problem.

jdemaris, i agree rotary pumps dont last near as long as inline pumps do. however, if you have clean veggy oil running through the pump, which provides more lubrication than petroleum diesel, the pump should last longer because of the extra lubrication. assuming your able to remove the impurities from the oil before it reaches the pump, and the oil is heated to high enough temps to flow easily. however, most people dont remove enough impurites from the oil, such as water, or the oil is too thick for the pump because its not hot enough, thus requiring more work for the pump to move the fuel through the system, and wearing it out faster. i'm assuming thats the reason for the failures that you came across when you were rebuilding pumps, impurities that forced the pump to work harder, thus causing more wear.

I'm with you 100%. :exactly:

Coney Island Park in Brooklyn, NY? I didn't know it even existed anymore - I haven't been there since the early 50s. Or are there more Coney Islands?


No, not that one. There are a whole bunch of them in my area... Quite a popular type of restaurant around here, actually (although there is a bit of controversy over whether the coneys should be served "Flint style" or "Chicago style" ):h). The place I get mine from makes a decent coney (which is a good benefit since you spend a bit of time there picking up the oil :D) and their waste oil is the cleanest I've ever seen. It is clear and quite clean although it has some pepper in it. There isn't very much water in it at all. When I first took a look at it I wasn't sure it was waste oil. Once filtered it looks like new oil (maybe just a shade darker - I keep telling them they need to change it a little more often but you know how that goes ):h )...

jdemaris, i agree rotary pumps dont last near as long as inline pumps do. however, if you have clean veggy oil running through the pump, which provides more lubrication than petroleum diesel, the pump should last longer because of the extra lubrication.

And, just what is "veggy oil."

Again - the term "veggy oil" doesn't really have any specific meaning. If something is to be discussed - it must be defined as to what exactly IS being discussed. If you pick a fuel that falls under any of the following acronyms below - it's chemistry can still vary wildy. Most claims - with success or failure stories that relate for running a diesel on waste-oil - have little meaning other than anecdotal since few people know - on a chemical basis - exactly what they are using.
Any statement making a general claim that veg-oil is better or worse - than pump diesel is just plain silly. Some veg-oils are virgin, some used, some organic, some synthetic, etc. Even if organic, there are big differences in oils from rapeseed,. canola, coconut, soy, etc. Governments all over the world, including the US, have detailed test specs on such things as:
RME: Rapeseed oil methyl ester, FAME: Fatty acid methyl ester VOME: Vegetable oil methyl ester FAMAE: Fatty acid mono alkyl ester, etc. etc.


Most scientifically verified injection pump failures absolutely relate to acid damage to metal parts, wear due to improper filtering, and metal wear scars due to viscosity/lubrication problems. Many home-brew (cleaned and filtered) fuels from waste cooking oils are high acid. Most - or on the average - such oil must be heated to 320 degrees F to meet the same viscosity requirements of pump diesel at 70 degrees F. Even when the veg. oil is heated to 320 F - it often has trouble passing through standard diesel fuel-filter systems. In many applications, the filter systems are changed to a different micron level - which voids any existing warrantees.
On the subject of standards, they have been set for biofuel all over the world. In the US - it is as follows:
ASTM D 6751-03 B100 biofuel - specifications for biodiesel (B100) Grades S15 and S500 for use as a blend component with diesel fuel oils defined by Specification D 975 Grades 1-D, 2-D, and low sulfur 1-D and 2-D.

Other terms/acronyms and accepted defintions:

SVO - defined by our government as straight vegetable oil used as diesel fuel , usually new oil, fresh, uncooked.

WVO - defined by our government as waste vegetable oil ,used cooking oil, "grease", fryer oil, including animal fats or fish oils from the cooking. Can be synthetic or organic.

UCO - used cooking oil

BTL - (Synthetic Diesel) Wood, straw, corn, garbage, food scraps, and sewage-sludge may be dried and gasified to . After purification the is used to produce synthetic diesel.

On the subject of me having experience - much of my first experiences have little scientific value. I worked in a German bakery in the 60s. My boss drove a beat-up Mercedes 180D diesel. Every day, he'd pour our deep-fry donut oil through a cheese-cloth (to filter it), and then dump it into his fuel tank. He also dumped used motor oil into it. Who knows what the ratio was to standard diesel fuel - and he never drove it in the winter since it started so hard. He drove it for years like that, and had many mechanical problems. But, no more than he had with his gas engine Volkswagen. At the time, I figured he was nuts. Kerosene or diesel fuel was around 25 cents a gallon, and gas was usually 32 cents a gallon. Diesel engines in small cars was very rare. Even in some big trucks - gas was still common. I drove a tractor-trailer moving truck with a Ford gas engine - and also drove a large Brockway gargage truck - also with a gas engine.
I started using various types of wate oil myself first with a 76 International Scout with a Nissan diesel, and later with a 77 volkswagen Rabbit - they are both still sitting up in one of my fields. I also first went to work as diesel pump technician around that time. Diesel use to the average US driver is a very new thing in the US - but it's a very old thing in Europe. The first diesel was invented by an Englishman - not Rudolph Diesel. The guy's name was Clark - so I wonder why it's not called Clark fuel instead of diesel? Clark's diesel design later became the "Detroit Jimmy" two-stroke-cycle supercharged diesel. Well, both buys are from overseas - and experiments with biofuels have been done in those areas for many - many years. It is only new here - just as driving a diesel is to many US people.

I'm with you 100%. :exactly:



No, not that one. There are a whole bunch of them in my area... Quite a popular type of restaurant around here, actually (although there is a bit of controversy over whether the coneys should be served "Flint style" or "Chicago style"

Interesting. I grew up maybe 10 miles from New York City - but I was in farm county on the other side of the Hudson River. Our area was a historic dumping ground for "bio fuel" that comes out the rear of horses - and NYC had an awful lot of horses at one time.
Coney Island and Palisades Parks were both a big deal when I was kid. All kinds of songs written about them etc. I was taken to Coney Island Park once in the 50s and barely remember it. Didn't realize there's more than one.

ok, i didnt know about the acidity problems with veggy oil. is there any way to reduce/eliminate that problem, other than converting it into biodiesel?

My waste vegetable oil tank is like this,
I started with a used R-134a tank about 3 feet tall and about 8 inches wide.
I installed the heater element buy cutting a hole in the bottem of the tank with my plasma cutter. Then took my grinder and buffed off the paint form arond the hole and wetted it with solder, after that I solded a prewetted 1'' pipe thread thing on there.
Then you have a tank with a 1'' pipe thread hole in the bottem of it. That is how you get the heating element in there.
The top is a 3/4'' pipe thread hole. I bushed the 3/4'' pipe thread down to 1/2'' then it goes to a 4 way. That gives me three 1/2'' pipe thread holes.
The first 1st Pipe thread goes to the 1/2'' inlet valve that is how you get the oil in and out of the tank.
The second goes to a 45 degree elbo (up hill) to the vacuum pump.
The 3rd goes to the vacuum gauge.
Lots of teflon tape and RTV later it holds vacuume and pressure no problem.

ok, i didnt know about the acidity problems with veggy oil. is there any way to reduce/eliminate that problem, other than converting it into biodiesel?

There are several ways to test and treat it - but I'm really up on latest. When the government does such tests on diesel or biofuel - they use a copper strip as a standard for corrosive effects. I suppose it just takes some sort of chemical additive, just as used in most diesel coolant systems to prevent cylinder-wall cavitation - which is also caused, in part, by acidity - along with peening by air bubbles. Pump diesel does get a chemical additive to keep acidity in check.

Not all vegetable oils have acidity problems. In addition, acidity is not caused by the oil itself... It may or may not be an issue depending on what other ingredients your restaurant uses in their cooking.

again, if you make provisions to dewater the wvo you should be able to get a lot of the acidity out of it - because a lot of that, as high sierra just said, has to do with impurities in the oil which can be dissolved in the emusified water that most wvo contains.

the simplest way to dewater wvo is to first filter it to at least 10-20 microns (which can be done by making filter socks out of demin jean pant legs, by the way) and then apply gentle heat to keep the wvo at about 100 F at least overnight (and the best way for this is to get a 1500 or 2500 watt, 220 VOLT water heater element and wire it to 110 V so it will only pull 1/4 the wattage and it will last longer, and use a water heater thermostat to control it) and then after it settles like that, all the emulsified water in the wvo will settle out, then pump the oil from several inches (like 8"-10" if using a 55 gallon drum) above the bottom and pump through a 10 micron filter such as a goldenrod or something similar.

If your oil looks at all cloudy then it likely has moisture in it. And if you (very carefully, preferably not in the kitchen) heat a small sample in a frying pan and you start to hear crackling noises, that means there is still moisture in it. You can do the same test with a water heater element but have to be careful to be sure the element is fully submerged or it will ignite - but if there is any crackling noise at all it means there is still moisture that will slowly but surely ruin the IP due to cavitation.
Paul

Another thing about the vacuum tank is if you can get it into your fuel tank with out mixing it a lot it won't have any air bubbles in it.

again, if you make provisions to dewater the wvo you should be able to get a lot of the acidity out of it - because a lot of that, as high sierra just said, has to do with impurities in the oil which can be dissolved in the emusified water that most wvo contains.


Titration is the most common process that I know of, that is used for dealing with acid in fuel. I assume that many acids are harmless and certain types must be targetted.

There are many virgin (uncooked, unused) vegetable oils that have high levels of certain acids (over a dozen types of acid). And, there are many that do not. And different brands or versions can vary. Some forms of rapeseed oil, or crambe oil are very high in erucic acid. Soy oil can be 7% linoleic acid. Canadian canola oil - is usually low in erucic acid and sometimes called LEAR - which stands for "Low Erucic Acid Rapeseed." It is also very high in oleic acid, linoleic acid and linolenic acid. And, now that deep-fry oil is getting changed all over country from hightrans-fat - to low -I have no idea if it means anything or not - as it relates to fuel use. Both oils contain many acids - but I don't know which can actually cause metal corrosion. I suspect than any small restaurants or bakeriesis are going to use what tastes best at the lowest cost - as long as they can get away with it. In New York City, the old cooking oils have been made illegal. McDonalds and KFC are also changing.

When certified fuel is being sold - it has to be tested to conform to specs. When you get waste oil - it's all up to you to figure out what it is - or how good or bad it is.

This portion of the equation has nothing to do with what comes later as impurities, or chemical changes from cooking. This brings me back to my initial point - that waste cooling oils can vary greatly.

Same goes with viscosity -at a given temperature - it varies with different vegetable oils. Certified #2 diesel has a viscosity of 2.7 to 5 at 40 degrees C. At the ame temperature Castor oil is 297. High Oleic Safflower is 41. Soy is 32 and Canola is 40.

Also -back to acid and injection pump damage. I have pulled apart some severely acid-damaged fuel-injection pumps that - as far as I know - were only run on standard diesel fuel. That's the kind of thing where you might never know what caused the damage. A pump might fail from fuel that was used four years previous. And, we really don't always know what we're getting at the pump either.

Maybe I should pH test and add lye to bring the pH closer to 7 then wash?

Maybe I should pH test and add lye to bring the pH closer to 7 then wash?

When you add a base to an acid to neutralize it two of the by-products are water and a salt of some type. I think you would have to work out a way to get the water out of it after adding the lye.

That is where my heated vacuum drying tanks comes into play.

That is where my heated vacuum drying tanks comes into play.

Sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your setup.