From the information I can gather, we have five choices for HP injector suppliers. DD, BD, DP, ATS, and Dave's. Did I miss any, and is there any info on claimed versus actual? Thanks...T

Kennedy

JK


OK, so im alittle slow with the keyboard, what Chad said http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifEdited by: heartbeatcanada

kennedy all the way

Quadzilla also sells them.

I've got 742 reasons as to why the KD injectors are good ones. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

JK


OK, so im alittle slow with the keyboard, what Chad said http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Geez, I had 5 more letters to type Jeremy http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Just curious here?


Does anyone make a module or downloader specifically designed for a specific sized injector?


Lets say you install injectors that flow 25% more fuel. This would be more fuel all of the time at all RPM's. The mass air sensor would play a small part, but overall you are getting more fuel all of the time.


So design a custom program. Level one would actually have less injector width than stock.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif The end result would be a very stock like truck.


The next level would be basically stock but with as little more advance on the injector timing. This would net mild performance gains.


The third level would have more everything but not as much as a current maxed out programn. This would keep over fueling to a minimum.


Seems like rail pressure might need to be adjusted accordingly as well.


Just some of my thoughts on how to get the most out of aftermarket injectors. Any current devices available like this?

None that I know of are currently available, some are probably working with injectors on programming though. But, Dodge guys use the same boxes with or without injectors. Most of us want as much fuel as we can get though, not backed down any!

It's just a hunch, but I figure could you could make more power with a custom injector program. A laptop in the driver seat with realtime and user input would be the cat's meow. Guess I bettter get a small block Chevy fuel injection if I want that luxury.

I have actually heard of guy that had some sort of program where he could change things with a laptop. Never met him, just heard about it. I have never seen anything like it though, so I doubt its true.

I have actually heard of guy that had some sort of program where he could change things with a laptop. Never met him, just heard about it. I have never seen anything like it though, so I doubt its true.


Obviously not for Diesels, but check LS1 edit for LS1's. Be nice if something like this existed for our trucks.

On March 28th 2003 "Duramax" was last mentioned in the LS1Edit digest:
Ken wrote:
"We have a lot of interest in the duramax, but haven't looked at them. If you have PCM part 3's from a DuramAX, let me know the numbers."

I guess not much happened since....it would also surprise me somewhat as Diesels are totally different.
Would be nice though if DmaxEdit would be available soon...but hopefully with a better HMI.

Just curious here?


Does anyone make a module or downloader specifically designed for a specific sized injector?


Lets say you install injectors that flow 25% more fuel. This would be more fuel all of the time at all RPM's. The mass air sensor would play a small part, but overall you are getting more fuel all of the time.


So design a custom program. Level one would actually have less injector width than stock.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif The end result would be a very stock like truck.


The next level would be basically stock but with as little more advance on the injector timing. This would net mild performance gains.


The third level would have more everything but not as much as a current maxed out programn. This would keep over fueling to a minimum.


Seems like rail pressure might need to be adjusted accordingly as well.


Just some of my thoughts on how to get the most out of aftermarket injectors. Any current devices available like this?





I am testing new programs to "gell" with the 40% Kennedy injectors. So far, the first pcm was pretty decent, and it was pretty conservative. Seat of the pants meter says its a wee bit better than a full blown pcm or tuner or stacking with the kitchen sink.


Waiting for the next one and when i can make time will try and hit the rollers to see if the ole seat o meter is still good.

Get R' Done Jeremy, we really appreciate all the time and money you have spent testing!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Get R' Done Jeremy, we really appreciate all the time and money you have spent testing!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I'm out to get my truck running as best it can, if i find out things that help others along the way i'm sure to pass them on. BTW have you acquired a certain something to solve your nightmares yethttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

<DIV>From the information I can gather, we have five choices for HP injector suppliers. DD, BD, DP, ATS, and Dave's. Did I miss any, and is there any info on claimed versus actual? Thanks...T </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Give Greg Landuyt 888-306-4255 a call, I heard a rumor he might have something new from an entirely new source...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>

how much are we looking at in upgrading the injectors . lets say from kennedy ?

Check out his website. Something that needs to be understood here guys, most of these are just nozzles for the injectors, not the whole injector-the parts that have been failing. The nozzle comes off the end of the injector and is swapped out for a honed out nozzle. I have 40% honed out nozzles. Most of them cost 1000-1200$. If you go over 40% or so they usually cost more as it takes more honing to make them bigger.

Thanks for the replies guys. WD, I've been told about the nozzle swap, but also heard that the LLY injectors don't have the "cracked body" prob, which only leaves the seat erosion prob, yes? I guess I never heard if it was the needle and seat in the tip, or the ball and seat in the solenoid. Is there a leak down or tip leakage test for the solenoid, and are the solenoids exact enough to insure proper CC's when only the tips are flow tested and the solenoids are swapped? I have calls out to everyone for output or flow numbers, but it's all pretty quiet on the replies (go figure. I'm sure it's still a bragging rights/ money thing, which stands to reason). From what I gather, stock is 7 hole @.005". Most of the replacements are EDM (sucks) 7 @.007". The better ones are still extrude's @ 7 @.007"/.008" (.008 being 40%??). A couple are having better luck with mix match 3 @.005", 2 @.007", 2 @.010",etc..., tho they smoke at idle. There seems to be a lack of consensus on the best build (depends on performance requirements?), and at what point the rail will run out of supply fuel. Judging from the output numbers achieved w/ boxes (mine included), I'd assume only the extreme guys are doing injectors, so are all the replacement injectors pretty much maxed anyway, leaving available rail pressures and atomization as the only variables (and of course cost)? Thanks for the input guys. Big numbers soon to come, and I'll have pics and output per addition/ change posted w/ the dyno sheets for anyone interested...T

EDM's suck?


Since when?


Who's EDM's?


Don's?


F1Diesel?

Names don't matter as the wars seem to be rising, but EDM's, tho precise from the start, have always worn faster than extrudes do to the extreme precision of the holes (sharp edges). They're all great from the start, but these are to much of a bitch to replace every 30,000 miles. Just an opinion, not the gospel. I'm open for suggestions, always...T

Names don't matter as the wars seem to be rising, but EDM's, tho precise from the start, have always worn faster than extrudes do to the extreme precision of the holes (sharp edges). They're all great from the start, but these are to much of a bitch to replace every 30,000 miles. Just an opinion, not the gospel. I'm open for suggestions, always...T


Wasn't trying to pry, Just seems strange that the EDM's in the CDT HPCR would be working for the sheep better than our EDM's would be.


Something amiss in the spray angle? &lt;120 degrees perhaps?


I have heard of some EDM's not working well for reasons to do mainy with spray angle, just wanted a little more info.


You can PM me and i can ask around a bit.

Here's a sample of what's going on.


Recent work on the control of particulate matter (PM) emissions and improvement of engine combustion efficiency in diesel engines has shown the effectiveness of reduced injector orifice diameter in promoting fuel atomization, leading to more complete combustion and reduction in soot formation. The current industry target is 50-mm diameter, although mean droplet size and soot incandescence both decrease steadily with orifice diameter; thus, any reduction in orifice diameter should result in improved efficiency and reduced PM emissions. Advancements in electrodischarge machining (EDM) technology currently used to fabricate orifices are not expected to achieve the 50 mm target, nor will they alleviate the rough interiors they produce. Current EDM’d orifices must be polished using an abrasive slurry to achieve an acceptable surface finish (0.5 mm RAwith a surface morphology characterized by sharp peaks and valleys). During the fuel injection process, this leads to a highly turbulent layer adjacent to the wall, which reduces the effective fuel delivery area of the orifice. As the orifice diameter is pushed down toward 50 mm, the impact of surface finish is greatly magnified, thus demanding even smoother finishes.


As a result of interactions with an injector supplier (Siemens), we began to consider surface roughness as a critical parameter. We performed a number of trials using different deposition methods to determine the change in surface roughness with EN plating at various thicknesses and under various deposition conditions. Erosion due to cavitation is expected to be a major problem in fuel injectors as orifice diameter decreases and injection pressure increases.


The general consensus out there seems to point to a two fold problem. Tho EDMs can make new holes in different places, the holes are very rough and have sharp edges at entry and exit. All hard angles and bumps cause distortion in the delivery plume and cause "packing" in the orifice, and also cause servere wear to the tip as the fuel attempts to "hone" the hole smooth again. Two humps inline with the hole and worn down will cause an even greater convex dip between them in the hole. The whole thing just progresses thru stages of different wear and pattern probs.


The second stage is the offset in the hole (spray angle) and corresponding delivery plume itself. When you don't have a straight, tho misted spray pattern, the fuel "bounces" all over the piston dish causing hot spots and detonation probs. Theoretically, an exactly perpandicular nozzle will have less probs with plume delivery than an offset nozzle. Slight distortions in the spray pattern on a perpandicular nozzle will slightly increase the duration of the combustion process (longer burn, more power), but chasing the fire around the cylinder will also cause more unburnt fuel to puke out the stack, negating the effects of the extra holes exponentially.


More holes, or bigger rougher holes, won't be as effecient as a bigger smoother hole, in which the majority of the fuel will still deliver just down from the peak, or raised center of the dish in the piston, creating the desired "swirl" up the side during combustion. The idea with making more power and still having longevity is to get fuel to burn longer, not to make a bigger boom in the cylinder. The more precisely you can deliver fuel to the sweet spot, having a fine enough mist to burn as completely as possible, but also having enough to be completely "full" of fuel (with a little left over [fuel cools]) with a given timing and boost ratio, the more torque you'll generate. We want gobs of fuel right in the center of the dish for an extended duration of burn. We don't want half the fuel hitting the outer upwards pitch in the dish, or just bouncing all over the place, chasing fire all over the cylinder like a pre-cup motor. Extended duration is only a plus if it still pushes on the center of the piston and doesn't cause detonation in unwanted places (

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif Geesh, its Sunday.....easy. I think i'll re-read that tomorrow when my heads on my shoulders..........damn long islands last night must have been mixed wrong http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif Geesh, its Sunday.....easy. I think i'll re-read that tomorrow when my heads on my shoulders..........damn long islands last night must have been mixed wrong http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


LOL...hair of the dog not long enough this morning Eh?

Ynot





I think you have mistyped the information you are reporting here. I think if you reread the Siemens information you will find the hole size to be .50 mm not 50 mm. Basically what they are stating is a smaller smooth hole works better than a large rough hole. The trick is to get the processing down. If you extrude hone after EDM you get a better finish but you must not disturb the needle seat area. So the process must be completed in stages of manufacturing not after completion. So what is done is to rough machine the nozzle then extrude hone the nozzle hole to size and finish. Then come back and complete the machining of the Needle and seat area. This becomes costly for mass production so they are not doing it this way and hoping that the EDM process will mature with time before the emission forces them into the multi stage process.

Hey there DT, ya, I know that's what it said, I just copied and pasted their report. I figured ya'll would catch the 50mm thing and re-udjust. I was thrown off to to start, but it's actually about a six page report on nickling and it was like that the whole way, I just sucked out the important stuff and didn't fix that part. On the rest, ya, that's what I tried to say. They EDM the hole, it's too rough, the extrude on top of it to smooth it out as best they can (crooked or not), and then are trying to nickle plate the finish. The idea is a smoother, rounder edged, longer lasting hole that's even smaller than the ones now. That is for soot and particulate count in the exhaust and squeezing the fuel even tighter. It's not the direction you want to go for pure smokin power, but that's not why I printed it anyway. It just mentioned the prob their having with EDM's. Our stacks will always look quite hazy, but you won't burn too much fuel in the 1/4 anyway...T

Naw, can't be. 0.5mm is half of 0.039", which would be 0.0195" which is way too big, isn't it?

I think the copy and paste probably didn't carry over the first "m" formatting which sometimes is the symbol for "micro."

50 microns, I think.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif "

BTW there's 25 microns per 0.001", so 50 microns would be 0.002" which would be very fine. Sound right?

Don't forget (I should have found a different study case), they are nickle plating. Don't have a clue how thick that is. The idea was to (probably, they didn't give final spec's) was to have ten or twelve .003 or .0035 smooth holes (found one pic, bunch of holes, two offset rows). Hasn't been done yet that I know of. All I took out of it was the end result that they had with electrodischarge machining a given hole. For our use we could have used a "50mm" rocket launcher barrel, the end result being still too rough to plate by their standards. "Got Juice"s original question was why do EDM's still suck. Sorry 'bout the confusion. I'll pick a more coherent day to choose a report next time http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif ...T





On edit, I googled the same search and found the same article (seems to be the exact same report with no pics of the guys and machines or anything. Can't find the four side by side nozzles either, tho they did italicize two sentences that were what the pics were of) and re-read the whole thing. What they say makes perfect sense for our use, but their end numbers don't make any sense at all. The last pic showed a multi-holed nozzle with super small orifices. I'll look again tomorrow for the pics... http://www.et.anl.gov/sections/tribology/highlights/fabrication_small_fuel.htmlEdited by: ynot

and these?


http://ils.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&amp;Subsection=Di splay&amp;ARTICLE_ID=208021

Yeah the article Juice shows above is all in microns, which is the unit Ynot's post should have listed, not mm.


Nickel electro-plating can be put down very very thin (2 microns) all the way up to whatever you want based on the time you want to take. However, getting this working up in a 50 micron hole would probably be tricky (or might not work at all) due to the difficulty of establishing a uniform electrical field up in a hole that small. It might plate at the nose of the hole, for example, but not have as much up in the hole.


However, you can also deposit nickel from a solution without using electricity (called electroless nickel duuuhhh). This method gives harder deposits, generally speaking, due to the high phosphorus content. The cool thing about this is that it gives a conformal coating everywhere on the part and probably could even be pumped through the orifices.


Just guessing, but 50 micron orifices with 5 microns of nickel would probably not be a crazy idea.


From an engineering view, I don't think it would make sense to make 0.020" (500 micron) holes and then plate them down to 50 microns.


But hey, I've been wrong before...


Interesting stuff though.

makes my head hurt to read all the info


Screw it.... gimme a set of core injectors and a Dremel tool and we'll make out ownhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Hey Juice-

Pull out one of your wife's long hairs, lube it up with rubbing compound, and just pull it back and forth through the nozzle until you open 'em up.

Let me know how it goes http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

No smoke at idle with 40%, not a whole lot more through the whole powerband, about as much as a 70hp program. Wish i woulda went bigger.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Hey Juice-

Pull out one of your wife's long hairs, lube it up with rubbing compound, and just pull it back and forth through the nozzle until you open 'em up.

Let me know how it goes http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Tried that... no joy!


That dremel is looking better by the minute!


maybe just cut the darn tips off and be done with it?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Yeah....like a tube of caulk....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Edited by: nwpadmax

Yeah....like a tube of caulk....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





You were reading my mind..... now where did i leave the cutoff wheel?