Has any one had a problem with Knocking under a load at low RPM s with Juice? It almost sounds like it is kicking out of pilot injection and going to regular injection. This happens at low speed usually in second or third gear. maybe about 35-45 miles an hour. As soon as you step on the throttle it goes away. Almost sounds like to much fuel for the engine conditions. It doesn't seem to smoke at at all though. Does run rough in gear at a stop light on and off though. I think this is a Duramax common problem. I have my attitude set at level 1. I was thinking about backing off (defueling) at low boost. Any ideas?

Without hearing it in person, it's tough to say with any certainty, but I'd be inclined to believe that if it sounds more like a ping on a gasser, it's OK. Sounds like the light load timing is just a bit more aggressive than stock.

Setting smoke to minimum will reduce it (at least on my truck). Also try running it on level 5 (just don't floor as much if you are worried about your trans), seems to reduce it.

The LLY Juice does not alter timing. Edited by: carterkraft

dmacy - yes! I have a 2004.5 and I just Juiced it and have been running around town at Level 3 for a week. About 3 days ago, it started doing this, *exactly* like you're describing. Sounds like an overheated gasser and it's a totally new noise that my DMAX never made till I got Juiced. I was going to call Edge but just haven't had time yet. Would be interested in hearing if you find out why.


I'm also wondering why Edge didn't build in any functionality for field patches. I mean, for a $500 toy, I'd think they'd have a serial port on it so someone could download new code from their website and reprogram one of these things after they bought it, but once they uncover a problem...like this might be. But alas, that is another subject altogether - I digress. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Mine does it also, in every level except 0!

Its a juice thing.


My 01 does it, first couple times I was sure I was loosing an injector or something but it has done it on and off for 50K now and all it still fine.


I suppose youcan't add 125 horse without a few little quirks.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

I guess that I expect that for what these things cost, we should be able to expect additional horses without this kind of a "quirk". The last several gassers I've owned with chip/programmer upgrades never did this. Hopefully this isn't just a "diesel thing" - it really blows to take off from every stop light with a $60K truck (with upgrades) sounding like it's got 300,000 miles on it.


I'm also running this at L3 which is only 75 horses so I'm expecting more. I have a message in to Edge support. If I get an answer, I'll post it here.

The LLY Juice does not alter timing.


Don't know who you get your info from.....but you are way off here!

I called Edge about this problem and they told me to try it in level 0. So I ran it there for a day or two. The problem still exists. It does come and go though. It seems like it always does it when the wife drives on occasion. She bitches about the loud knocking. Any way Edge said if it did it on level 0 then it is not there problem because that is a stock setting and juice does no fuel control, it is an injector problem and to see the dealer. The only thing I can think of is that the additional fuel fouls the end of the injectors causing raw fuel to squirt instead of a mist? I would think that Juice does change the timming of the injection as well as the pulse width. I also tried defueling at low boost and it still did it.

Edge asked me to see if it happened after the engine heated up to 180 degrees today. It still did it, but not nearly as bad, so it appears the problem is exacerbated with a cold engine.


However, unlike you dmacy, mine does not exhibit this problem on L0 - only once I've kicked in the Juice on L3.


However, I hope Edge doesn't tell me that I have to wait to heat my engine to 180 degrees every time I drive it. I had to sit in my driveway at 2500RPM for 5 minutes this morning to get to 180. I'm waiting to hear back from them about a resolution and will post what I hear guys.

It was almost non detectable on level 0 but it was still there. I had to really listen for it. Once compleatly hot it seems to go away. I have also noticed it at speed. 55-65 miles an hour. Under a light load if you lightly let off the throttle it knocks very loudly for a couple seconds then stops. Almost sounds like spark knock. Once compleatly hot it seems to go away. I can reproduce it consistantly when not compleatly up to temp

dduffy I also asked Edge why they could not give a customer the ability to reflash the Juice with a laptop or serial cable. They didn't really give me a response. Maybe if enough customers request it they will do so in the future.

Just for kicks disconnect your egr. You can find the directions on how to do it in the Disconnect EGR thread. Mine had a noise that was somewhat similar to what you are describing and since I have disconnected my EGR I haven't heard it. (1500 miles now)

I have my egr disconnected and have not had this problem with my juice attitude. At least not yet...keeping my fingers crossed! I have 500 miles logged on my juice/attitude and couldn't be happier up to this point.

All who do not have NE or CA emmissions have diffrent programing on their Federal PCMs. Disconnecting EGR on NE or CA vehicles produces diffrent results but I will give it a try. Mine is NE emissions.

i am ready to buy ju/***. but i am worried about warr. issues when a problem arisses. when i uninstall the ju/***. can the dealership detect that it was ever installedhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I drove the truck all day yesterday running errands etc. at diffrent engine temps and conditions. No knock. I could not get the knock in any Juice setting. Seems to be intermittant.

Mine was doing it yesterday real bad, engine was not upto full temp. yet--was pulling boat to launch only about ten min. from house. Level zero it would not do it, any other level, yes. Also have had EGR off for about 800 miles. Also, maybe unrelated, but this morning for the first time ever it "coughed". Was not upto full temp (about 160) at 70 mph and it just lost all power and as I pushed on the throttle, the power came back after a huge cloud of smoke, then ran fine the rest of the way to work!? Level 1 low boost fuel at 3.

Yesterday mine knocked all day at any temp. Also I have noticed that I don't think it runs well when it is knocking. Seems like it doesn't have the power it should have and doesn't shift as well. Almost like it has to relearn. Mine also does it on any level. I think it also does it at 0 but you really have to listen for it I am not sure. I am currently running on level 1 with low boost at 3 and defueling all shifts. I would suggest that you call Edge. They will never address the problem unless they hear from us. They seemed pretty unresposive when I called them. They thought it was a GM problem. I just don't understand how one day it can run so well and smooth and the next knock, carry on and run like sh__t.

I drove yesterday and it knocked at any temp it even did it at full temp. I noticed that the temp gauge in the Juice is not the same as the dash gauge. it is almost 10 degrees lower on the attitude. I couldn't get the gauge on the attitude over 190 but it was a cool cloudy day. The knock wasn't as bad as it has been but still there. 403turbo I don't want to dismiss this thing as simply a Juice thing. Maybe some of them do it and others don't but that's not a good answer. After paying almost 800 for the Juice I don't expect to encouter this kind of problem. After all didn't Edge beta test this thing. I would think this would have come up in Beta testing. If it didn't and they are getting calls about it now wouldn't you think that they would document the problem and look into it. I didn't seem to get that opinion when I talked to them they just simply blew me off. I encourage any one who is having any sort of problem with the Juice/Attitude on the LLY to call Edge and let them know. There will be no software revisions unless this happens. I CAN'T DO THIS ALONE! Rather than just bitching about it on this form call Edge.

I can tell you i still have this same problem with my un-juiced lly. No mods. It is intermittent, comes and goes.

Mine doesn't do it at all, even stacked with super aggressive PPE timing. Have been hearing that LLY injector failure numbers are as prevalent as the first run of LB7 injectors. Ball and seat erosion, etc... Pull the box and have the dealer run diagnostics for injector failure...T

My truck is now doing the above chatter knock whatever it is....I will call edge tomorrow. Does not do it on level 0. Any update on this issue?

I have been trying to figure out what I am going to put on my truck. Why did all of you get Juice and not the 6 Gun.

I went with the Edge because you can unplug it and remove it for warintee work. Also it seemed to have a good record.

My truck is now doing the above chatter knock whatever it is....I will call edge tomorrow. Does not do it on level 0. Any update on this issue?




Hi dpower.


No, no answer yet. Apparantly, Aaron is the only guy at Edge working on this issue, as the company is totally unresponsive when he's on vacation, etc.


However, when I did hear from him, he noted that this problem appears only on California trucks (or perhaps he said predominantely on CA trucks). Nonetheless, he said they're aware of it and trying to get a truck to bang on to get it resolved and that he thought they might have a fix for this "soon". Obviously "soon" is relative when you're driving a $40-$70K (depending on model/upgrades) truck around that sounds like it's overheating and a bit embarassing to drive.


Previously Aaron thought it may need time to heat up to 180 degrees but I recently sent him this update. Still haven't heard back but again, it's probably due to him being the only guy at Edge working on DMAX support:


Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 1:16 PM
To: 'Aaron Stewart'
Subject: RE: Problems with "knocking" in Juice/Attitude on Chevy 2004.5 LLY

Aaron - here's some more details on this problem that might help you solve it.
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>I've noticed that the knocking does not occurr until the truck is about 130 degrees. When I start it, it's normally about 80-88 degrees engine temp, and right up until about 130, it's fine.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>Then between 130-192, it's just obnoxious. It does tend to taper off after 180, but it's still noticeable right up till about 192 degrees - then it's gone.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>This behavior has been consistent in the morning, when it was about 70 degrees out, and a little less noticeable in the afternoon when it was 103 degrees outside. The truck was starting cold in both situations, and was about 80-88 degrees on startup.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left> </DIV>

Dduffy....that is precisely the conditions that my truck is exhibiting. I mean to the dotted I. I had a busy day today but tommorrow I am gonna call edge and see whats going on. When is Aaron supposed to be back? I will probably end up leaving a voice mail. We need to pull together and get this ironed out!

Dduffy....that is precisely the conditions that my truck is exhibiting. I mean to the dotted I. I had a busy day today but tommorrow I am gonna call edge and see whats going on. When is Aaron supposed to be back? I will probably end up leaving a voice mail. We need to pull together and get this ironed out!


Sorry brother - I don't know when he's back. He is really helpful when I have reached him though. I suspect he's backlogged coming back after the holiday.


I guess the most important thing for me is just knowing, based on everyone else's experience here on DP, that Edge will eventually step up and make it right. I just hope this isn't doing damage to my truck in the meantime though.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

When I called edge about the problem they were preaty unresponsive. I don't know who I talked to though. I will try calling and talk to Aaron though. Just so he has another documented case. I have the Ca. and NE emissions also. We will see what happens. I will try to call today.

I just called Edge about the knock for the second time. I was unable to get through to Aaron. They said he was in a meeting. I did leave him a voice mail and hopefully he will get back to me. I guess at this point all we can do is keep calling.

I called today..the truck actually cut out on me today so I removed the box and what do ya know....I can't get the symptoms to repeat at all. I am taking my truck to the dealer to get injector balance rates but I am convinced at this point that its the box. We shall see.

Mine does it on all levels and settings. I have experimented the heck out of it and it is very annoying.It does it on setting 0,when I disconnect the juice it goes away immediately. Seems like a Juice problem to me also because it never did it before the Juice. Of interest I was on a site called performancelifts.com and they have removed it from their inventory because of the problems their customers were having. I emailed them to send me the details, has anyone else done this as I haven`t recieved a reply because I just emailed them today. Thanks, Chris.

Well since I am neurotic....I have spent the last 2 hours trying to get it to do it again and it will not. Enroute ATC if you can call edge and tell them your problem it may help with them getting onto a fix.


on edit: keep us upto date with what that other company tells you!Edited by: dpower

Well since I am neurotic....I have spent the last 2 hours trying to get it to do it again and it will not. Enroute ATC if you can call edge and tell them your problem it may help with them getting onto a fix.




dpower - are you in California? Have you experienced it previously? Seems (from my truck) that it only does it between 130 and 192 degrees, but it does so in any setting, but seems more pronounced on any level &gt;0. Removing the unit or going to 0 solves the problem, but that's no fun! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

There is an unrelated thread where GMCSID provides a GM web site for finding out the most current software versions for the various control modules.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14435&KW=gm%2Ecom

I entered the VIN for my LLY truck and the following summary history was returned concerning the vehicle control module software:

*************

#15141668 - Operating system

#15245557 - Service cal fixes: engine combustion KNOCK elimination/reduction at 80 to 140 Mpa rail pressure under light to medium throttle driving, rough idling and white smoking condition elimination/reduction, low speed light throttle driving surge elimination

#15245549 - Same verbage as ....5557 above.

#21996487 - Engine diagnostic

#15136389 - Fuel system

#15087279 - System

#5087291 - Speedometer

************

Items ....5557 and ...5549 made me think of this thread. It appears GM has made a couple of attempts to fix an engine knocking problem.

Maybe a GM computer software update will help solve the knocking problem some of the folks are experiencing with the new Edge box. (Or then again, it might make it worse!)

Per the comments for GMCSID, it looks like a TECH II is needed to display the truck's software version number. Hopefully one of the Techs can explain how the numbers work. I assume a higher number is issued for each new update, even though the chart above was not displayed in sequence and did not have any dates.

My truck early on had some knocking at level 0. I haven't checked it in some time in level 0. I can tell you I had no problem until I plugged my Juice in. Yesterday my wife stoped a train crossing with the truck and had a big blue cloud come out of it. Edge told me that if it was knocking in level 0 that it was not their problem but GMs. That it was probably an injector problem. I find that it is interesting that enroute atc can unplug the Jucie in level 0 and have the problem go away. That tells me that their is something going on in level 0 even though Edge says that in level 0 all that happens is information is just passed through the modual without any thing happening. When I talked to Edge yesterday I couldn't get a hold of Aaron but the guy I talked to said they are working on it and hope that people stay with them until they get it staighted out. I would be interested in the injector balance rates.

The following is for the LB7 Juice, though I assume it also applies for the LLY. For level 0, it is my understanding they are not changing the fuel commands from stock. However, they are still modifying the injection timing. This results in an approximate gain of 20 HP. I have measured this on a dyno. For Levels 1-5, Edge is changing the fuel commands that the ECM sends to the FICM (duration) as well as the injection timing.


So if you have a "knocking" sound coming from your engine with the Edge Juice/Attitude in the circuit, that device can still be responsible for your problems (even when only on Level 0). They could be screwing up the injection timing (just like the Edge Juice/Attituded did on the LB7 motor No-Start issue - Levels 0-5).





DMACY wrote: "That tells me that their is something going on in level 0 even though Edge says that in level 0 all that happens is information is just passed through the modual without any thing happening"


Given what I wrote above, you should question Edge on the statement quoted above. I believe the Edge Juice/Attitude is modifying the injection timing if it is in the circuit (no matter what level, ie. 0-5). If they are in the circuit and there is a problem; then if you remove them from the circuit and the problem goes away,,,,,,,, looks like you found the guilty party.

Well like I said Edge kind of blew me off the first time I talked to them what OC_DMAX says makes sense. I have not had the oportunity to accually disconect the Juice but willl try to do so. Today the knock seemed to go away once the engine got really hot.

I have my truck at the stealers right now....gettin the injector balance checked.......Have not heard anything yet. At this point I am almost for certain its the edge...give you guys a better answer tonight hopefully.

My tuck is back and all the injector parameters are in good shape. Its definitely the box. I called edge and they are sending me a new one....they don't know if its gonna fix the problem but they were willing to give it a try. Excellent customer service from edge and the dealer this time.

My tuck is back and all the injector parameters are in good shape. Its definitely the box. I called edge and they are sending me a new one....they don't know if its gonna fix the problem but they were willing to give it a try. Excellent customer service from edge and the dealer this time.




Excellent service for you, but what about the rest of us who told Edge about this a month ago and have only been told "we're working on it"?


Aaron/Edge - why haven't I been offered a replacement box when I have the identical condition on my truck?

I think their concern is a new box will not fix the problem. I will be sure to post the outcome as soon as I get the new box. I just asked if I could try another box under the condition that a different box may not fix the problem.....if it doesn't fix it I will live with the condition until there is a fix....Edge has always come through with other products and I am sure they will with the LLY box. I think it is still a neat piece of equipment even with the knocking. I will be very dillegent in posting the results if you other guys just want to wait and see what happens to me before asking for a new box.

I can't even get a call back. I have left messages for Aaron and have gotten no reply. I don't see how that is good customer service. He sent me a PM and told me to call him and he would let me know what was going on but as of yet nothing. I am totaly frustrated!

dpower:

When your truck was at the dealer for the scan, did you ask if it had the upgraded Vehicle Control Module software that addresses the "engine combustion knock" issue?

Thanks.

I am taking mine in for a balance test this morning. I will keep everyone posted

Just talked to Aaron. He said that GM has, in some cases had LLYs that needed a reflash update. In at least one case it cured the problem. I will check with the dealer, have him plug in a Tech2 and see if mine is in need. My hats off to Aaron for being proactive on this. If anyone else is having problems with knocking better check with the dealer. I did get some good info from Aaron and I think they are on top of things at Edge. It can just be hard to get through on the phone. THANKS Aaron. I guess I am back to the dealer to check for the update. The balance rate was ok.

I will be very interested to see how this pans out. Like I said before mine does not knock as soon as I disconnect the Juice. Hope things work out for all that have this problem. Mine is going in to the dealer for the rough idle at a stop issue many people are having. Maybe after that is addressed it will help the knock issue and solve the problem when the Juice is connected, we will see! I may have to call Edge myself and seee what they can do for me.

I got some messages from Aaron @ Edge yesterday. In a nutshell, this is how I understand it: this knock will only manifest itself when the Juice is installed, but according to Edge, there's nothing they can do about it because it's not their problem - it's Chevy's.


Apparantly it has something to do with the firmware in the truck that Edge does not control, and it sounds like the solution is to take the truck to the stealer and have them do a flash upgrade if your truck falls within the batch that requires it - and I'm sure that any of us experiencing this knocking fall into that category.


What's interesting though is that the truck exhibits absolutely no problems until the Edge product is introduced, yet Edge has been pretty emphatic that it's not their responsibility.


Although I understand that they have no control over this flash, it is still a bit difficult for me to understand how I can pay $600 for a reprogrammer that negatively (and positively after it is over 190 degrees) impacts the truck, but that Edge has no control over. When I had my gasser with a Hypertech, it seemed like the Hypertech took over all the engine programming - not just a subset like the Juice apparantly does.


Aside from this fiasco, I love the Juice and Edge seems to be as responsive as they can possibly be (and Aaron is as helpful as he can be, within the constraints of this situation - he called me several times trying to explain). I guess it's just a little disappointing to be told that the resolution to this problem is to have to haul my ride into the stealer, then try and tell them that I have this problem, that only exists when I install the Juice, but at the same time, I can't tell them I have a Juice because that may jeopardize my warranty support, so somehow I have to get them to give me this flash upgrade without telling them why it happens. Again, remove the Juice, the problem disappears - and that seems to be the same for all of us from the West Coast to the East Coast.


I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that and I may be oversimplifying this, but I guess that I expected that when I bought my Juice, I was buying a total reprogramming solution. Aside from this fiasco, I'm still happy that I bought the Juice and it definitely delivers as advertised.

problem is....I just got my truck re-flashed and it still does it. Now what?

dpower........ I just came back from the dealer and they could find no info on the relash to address the problem. Do you have any info or the bulitin number?

Dmacy....I forgot which thread that was under. I will look into it tonight.





On edit: Opps...You can find that info on page 2 of this thread.Edited by: dpower

Dmacy: I believe this thread references the software upgrade documentation in question. Read the note posted by DmaxalliTech (Eric) on 9/13/2004, 1:10PM.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14875&PN=1&TPN=1

Just got back from the dealer. He had to download new info from GM into his Tech2. He then checked my truck. Sure enough there was a Cal update for engine knock. He reflashed my PCM and I went on my way and reinstalled the Juice. I will give everyone an update on if it cured the knock. Preliminary findings are that it did. The engine really needs to be cold to tell for sure. I will post tomorrow.

Just drove the truck cold. No knock. Looks like the reflash did the trick. As Aaron explained to me the Juice can cause an existing knock condition to be worse. In my case the knock was barely detecatable with the Juice in level 0 or disconected. Once installed it made the knock considerably worse. Edge does not know why but it does. GM knows they have a knock problem and have a revised Cal package for the PCM to address the issue. If you have a really bad knock at light to moderate throttle before the engine is compleatly up to temp with the Juice. Try taking it into the dealer to see if there is an update. This update also addresses injector balance. In my case the dealer checked my PCM and found it was up to date. He then went and updated his Tech2, a process that takes about 10 min. and sure enough there was an update. If the Tech2 isn't current it will not tell the dealer that there is an update. I will keep my fingers crossed and hope this takes care of the problem.

dmacy - do you have any details on the version of your flash pre-update and post update that we can reference when we go to the stealer, to be sure we get the "right" upgrade, and we can reference a specific build ID?


Also, how'd you explain this to the stealer without telling him that you were running a Juice? Or did you?


If you removed the Juice before you took your ride in, did they ask you what your temp probe hanging out of the side of the exhaust manifold was for (since I'm presuming you pulled your Juice, so the sensor had an unconnected wire hanging off the manifold)?


Out of curiosity, do you guys in Massachusetts run the Cal version of the code for air board compliance or something? I noticed you mentioned the Cal package but you're on the east coast.


Thanks!

I would like to point something out. If you jump in your truck when cold, my understanding is that until you run up to 160 F or so, there is no juice interface, it doesn't come in when cold. If you are experiencing the same problem hot and cold, then I would deduce that it is NOT juice related.


This thread got me wondering, since I too seem to notice a low rpm hesitation/knock, for lack of an expert description. I haven't removed it to see if goes away, but If I understand the juice correctly, how can you notice a juice flaw at 130 and 190? There is no juice at 130.

if its hooked up, whether hot or cold it may be doing a little bit. remember the signals still go through the box... when in doubt, just disconnect it and try again..

I told the dealer I had a knock under light to moderate throttle condition and I understood there was a flash upgrade. I took the Juice out before I went. I also moved my attitude under the dash. They do not have to open the hood for any reason. they just plug into the ALDL connector under the dash. The wire for the temp probe I just tucked under the plastic fuse block under the hood. I was sure they wouldn't open the hood and they didn't. I do have NE/Cal emmisions as I live in Ma. As far the Juice thing is concerned, The juice just amplifies an existing problem. Why it amplifies it in level 0 nobody knows but it does. Edge thinks maybe it is picking up some kind of electrical noise under the hood and passing it on to the PCM creating the problem. The juice doesn't have to be working for this to happen. ALL I KNOW IS AFTER THE REFLASH THE KNOCK IS GONE! With or without the Juice. Go to the dealer and make sure he has the most current software in his Tech2 and see if you are in need of a reflash.

For those that have had the new software upgrade applied, what is the impact on fuel milage????

Same, better, or worse????

Also, any other changes worth commenting on?

Thanks.

Don't know about mileage yet but it seems to run smoohter.

There is an unrelated thread where GMCSID provides a GM web site for finding out the most current software versions for the various control modules.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14435&KW=gm%2Ecom

Does anyone know where this site is? Since Diesel Place switched the website, this URL no longer works.

Thanks.

CalDirt,

Here is a more detailed response that I had posted in another thread:

************

Try the following GM web site:

http://calid.gm.com/vci/VINEntryPre.do

Enter your VIN number in the box provided and click on the SUBMIT button.

Scroll to the bottom of the Controller list box and select PCM/VCM, select NORMAL as the programming type, then click on the NEXT button. Continue to click on the NEXT buttons as the various screens are displayed.

Note: The calibration web site can be entered from the //service.gm.com web site, then select the "TIS" tab near the top of the screen.

*****************