my 6.5 has 156,000 mile on it and iv been lookin at some chips from kennedy diesel, but im afraid that my engine has ran so long like it is, if it would be bad on the engine to add more power after 156K.


http://www.kennedydiesel.com/ then go to 6.5 perfomance, then chips

The chip just adds fuel and higher boost levels. There are other ways of increasing both and you can still use a chip. I don't think your trucks over the hill unless it's got excessive blowby or wear.

There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment.

Well, you havn't been listening.


See this thread: http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10883&KW=6%2E5+performance (http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10883&KW=6%2E5+performance)


The approach I've taken is proven, documented and effective. The approach referred to above is none of the above...


Lot's of people are very happy with there chips... I know I am. Don't fall prey to the braggadocio of those with little real experience.


The following text is copied from another thread on this forum where the same guy tried to distort the facts. Here's the text of my reply:
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">


In all reality, the mods all work together. Kennedy had a stock 6.5 on his dyno (not mine) that made 142 hp. Mine made 223 hp. Thats a 57% increase (81 hp). No, these can't really be used to determine actual gain on my truck, but I believe they are representative. I don't have data on the chip alone with no other mods, but it might look different then.


The big gain was at 2550 RPM and was really significant from a real world, seat of the pants perspective. The bulge at 2550 rpm (seen in the dyno data) between the stock programming (this was with intercooler, high pop injectors, K&amp;N filter and Banks exhaust, so it's not stock mechanically) and top curve is 93 lb-ft and 45 hp gain at that point. That's a 28% increase from 335 lb-ft to 428 lb-ft and 163 hp to 208 hp.


The peak power numbers don't reflect as big of a gain as they could because I'm getting too far off design point for the GM 4 turbo charger. The big gain came in the middle of the rpm range.


The 6.5 is not a Duramax, where one plug-in module can turn the truck into a screamer with no other changes. The 6.5 needs a systems approach. I contend that there is more to be gained than what I have gained so far. We will see.


On edit:


TDG, you were posting at about the same time as me. Read this post, then see if you want to change your mind. The chip was about $350 and the boost control goes for about $90. A 28% gain at the point where I run while towing is not something to sneeze at. And, no, he's not right. As I said earlier, it takes a systems approach.


My Suburban is competitive with brand new, stock Duramax's, PowerStrokes and Cummins 600's. I've spent a lot less than you would need to spend to buy one of those, so I'd say I've gotten a big bang for my buck!http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif And, it is easy to talk when there is no hard data to refute or back up statements. Hook your blazer to a 9000 lb travel trailer and head out across I-10 or I-40 toward California. See how long you can maintain 70 mph. You will overheat, run high EGT and the computer will cut back your fuel (if you don't blow the coolant cork first). My dyno numbers are good, but where my truck really shines now is being able to sustain 75 mph on a 95 degree day at 3000 ft above MSL. That's precisely where you will find that you need intercooling and higher boost to keep your engine working. Guaranteed.


The proof's in the pudding. My pudding tastes pretty good.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif</BLOCKQUOTE>
Here's the link to the full thread: <A href="http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12691&amp;PN=1&amp;TPN=1" target="_blank">http://

Ron, you still goin to open house?

Rj,


To be fair though, you have more than just a chip.


1. boost control. resist the map and baro for max boost levels


2. intercooling. to increase the airdensity and take the heat off.


3. 1.95 TDC offset. advance the timing ad it runs better.

Didn't I say it takes a "systems approach"? You can see for yourself from the data what each of the electronics changes did. I also made it clear that the mechanical configuration included a better exhaust, air filter and the intercooler. I'm not the one trying to skew the discussion. I've been very up front with what does and doesn't work.

Yeah but c'mon Ron, everytime someone has an idea that you didnt do to your truck you say it doesn't work because your truck works so good and you didnt do it that way. Systems approach is the only way to approach these engines, but thats a guideline, not a pinstripe, there's lots of avenues of approach avaialable, not necessarily all equal, but each with their own merits. Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

I'm for the systems approach also, FSD, Airflow, gages, 97+ H2O, limited Boost control, fuel, IC/WMI, reflash, then max boost


Someone elses approach might be a little different order, you have to gauge satisfaction of reflash for it's intent, as a empty hauling racer probably some of TDGs ideas a different way to go maybe no net gain vs cost of the reflash.


As a towing machine for the long haul RJ &amp; I others have the better way IMO, Dyno nos of like equipped trucks and my real world tows give me high confidence this approach works.


I don't race my Diesel mine wasn't bought for that, it's pretty quick might even give TDG a run for his money, but the way TDG is set up no way he could haul a 18K loaded GN trailer for long.


So 9465 you have to figure what you are going to do with your truck, you can make it go fast evdidently TDG has done so for less $$$, but I doubt it will tow a real load for as long, which is what I've set mine up for.


Last year at a dyno meet there was a guy there with a Dodge making gobs of power laying rubber all bells and whistles, Diesel drag racer impressive said I, "how long does the engine last asks I", about a year says he. Speed costs pay me now pay me later, I choose later just figure out what you wanty your truck to do and go from there.


Want to go fast build you a gasser blow one of those up drop in a cheap engine available anywhere, Diesels cost big $$$ to race.

There are different ways to add fuel and boost.


Nothing adds fuel like a chip or a reflash.


Change the resistor and move your optical sensor all you want. Can't compete.


Who actually complained about chips? If all they were seeing was black smoke, something is wrong. It's part of the 'Total Package'.(Intake, Exhaust, Boost, &amp; Fuel).


It seems like every time someone wants to try a 'Proved' method, you step in with a $3 miracle. Can't compare. Ridiculous even.


I have a reflash and couldn't get it to smoke if I tried.


Where's that plow...

There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment.





And I have yet to hear of anyone disappointed in my chip unless there was an underlying problem with the vehicle...

Most of the complainers had "chipped" but no charge-air cooler - won't work, folks.


And, how about that exhaust?


Saw pictures of QM's two downpipes (worst I've ever seen) - would like to see pictures of TDG's after he replaces it.


I have an 80mm3 chip, and it blows some black smoke - wish I had twin stainless stacks, with those little flappers on the top, to show it offhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gifEdited by: gmctd

Yeah but c'mon Ron, everytime someone has an idea that you didnt do to your truck you say it doesn't work because your truck works so good and you didnt do it that way. Systems approach is the only way to approach these engines, but thats a guideline, not a pinstripe, there's lots of avenues of approach avaialable, not necessarily all equal, but each with their own merits.


What?


I simply jump in to set the record straight on your distortions and out-right lies.


There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment.


The above quote is an out-right lie apparently designed to enhance your perceived status among the inexperienced here. Anyone who reads a little here, or at the Diesel Page, will know your statement is not true. I don't know what your motives are, but I will rebut these types of false statements... anytime I hear or see them.

I forgot about the smoke comment, the ONLY time mine makes smoke is when I kick it in the pants, a puff of smoke that clears when turbo starts supplying proper amount of air, or the IC hose pops off while I'm kicking it in the pants, boy does she ever smoke then. Hose popping off is my bad bought cheap clamps, T bolt clamps on order.

There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment.


And I have yet to hear of anyone disappointed in my chip unless there was an underlying problem with the vehicle...









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<TD class=text>Yeah but c'mon Ron, everytime someone has an idea that you didnt do to your truck you say it doesn't work because your truck works so good and you didnt do it that way. Systems approach is the only way to approach these engines, but thats a guideline, not a pinstripe, there's lots of avenues of approach avaialable, not necessarily all equal, but each with their own merits.</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>


What?


I simply jump in to set the record straight on your distortions and out-right lies.



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<TD class=text>There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment.</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>


The above quote is an out-right lie apparently designed to enhance your perceived status among the inexperienced here. Anyone who reads a little here, or at the Diesel Page, will know your statement is not true. I don't know what your motives are, but I will rebut these types of false statements... anytime I hear or see them.







HUM I understand that some people here make money selling their goods,which is great, Oh course not sure if RJ gets a commission, LOL, but GUYS, YA are starting to sound like the Yahoo Guy who puts everything down thats not his idea or what he says to do.. THAT is why I left there and came here, You don't have to agree with everything but wicked personal attacks. TDG has said that RJ's system was the best way to go for those with Deeeep pockets, but offers maybe a cheaper way to get some of the performance closer to a RJ'd type truck. I am just speaking up cause everyones bickering here might run somepeople off, when all we want in info before I spend my hard earned money, some of which I hope will surely end up in Kennedy's cash drawer, cause I don't have the extra cash to do it twice or three times. Now as far as me I just asking " can't we all just get along" LOLhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Smile.gif . It would be amazing what everyone could come up with it Kennedy's PCM knowledge with TDG's pump know how, and some out of the box idea's from QM, all put together by someone with RJ's experience and actual working knowledge in putting togther one super truck.


ONCE again just my view from an outsider looking in. Edited by: bowtie

Bowtie's right,


We can waste our hot air on who's wrong or right or we can discuss our goals in hormony. I would prefer to see us united in our common interests. Disagreement doesn't have to mean discord.


But where's this "box", I don't see it? Edited by: quantum mechanic

Bowtie's right,


We can waste our hot air on who's wrong or right or we can discuss our goals in hormony. I would prefer to see us united in our common interests. Disagreement doesn't have to mean discord.


But where's this "box", I don't see it?





YOU don't see it because you are way out of it with your thinking and idea's. Keep it up

Comparison cannot be made between the two trucks in question.


One is Far Superior to the other. 'Documented' Superior I might add. Read the fine print, No. Wait. There is no fine print. Just Black &amp; White.


The other...Well...When is that Dyno Day?





Great Country America. Choose your weapon.


Some Controversy is good, No?





On Edit: He does have some nice colors in his graphs...Edited by: Billman

So...


an IC is a requirement for all chips or just some? About where do you reach the IC threshold? I was under the impression that an IC was a good idea for steady boost of 10-12psi and/or heavy towing applications. I didn't think adding fuel with a boost max of 10-12 would require an IC.


I am slowly putting together a power strategy after I get the required parts in place (gages, exhaust, timing), so discussions like this will help me formulate the best route to my performance goals.


Thanks

No comparrison right now, but once TDG has an intercooler, boost mods and perhaps a shareware reprogram, and even a modified intake exhaust it will be a close match (not towing but maybe dyno chart). I salute every effort made to improve these trucks. Low buck appeals to my farmboy senseabilities more, but I do look at what RJ and TD have done and think of ways to get there without spending a mint.


TDG is young and his thinking has the inspriation and novelty of his youth. Why supress his vision, lay out the facts as you know them and let us find his our feild of truth.


TDG has answered more unanswerable questions about the DS4 pump than I cared to ask. The pump is the heart of this monster and His thinking revolves around it. Let him have some rope, and if he hangs, don't be the one to have tied the noose.


Super tuscon,


Making more boost and pumping more fuel demand an intercooler if you're going to work this truck. Pulling a heavy load is possible without one but as you up the power, you take the truck to the danger threshold. An IC has two functions:


1. take the heat off the intake, the more air you compress the hotter it gets, a greater volume of air doesn't mean a greater volume of O2. Condense that hot air and O2 density increases per volume per psi. Since the O2 content is imporatnt in efficiently burning the fuel, you'll make more power with the same increased boost and fuel. the greater the coefficient of cooling your intercooler has the denser the air charge, the denser the air charge, the more O2 per cylinder,per combustion event. chargeair cooler 1:1 coefficient, water to air 4:1, supercooling Perhaps 10:1.


2. Take the heat off the exhaust. If you get that turbo over 1200 deg F problems are not far behind. The hotter the turbo, the hotter the intake. Edited by: quantum mechanic

I don't want to hang anyone.


After his pump knowledge, I don't think he has a clue. But who am I to say. There are more to these trucks than the pump. I'm not questioning his knowledge there. EVERYWHERE else I will.


Don't get me wrong, I DO enjoy reading these forums and these threads especially. Keeps you on your toes.





As far as the 'Close Match'...I'd like to see that.

Olive branch, Ive not entered the fray much myself, but TDG did raise my hackles a bit in his earlier posts saying my way was a waste, you could do it his way for less and get same result. Maybe so on a daily driver only; some of his ideas also raise some concern for the long haul, a lot of R&amp;D went into proper aspiration and venting of the crankcase.


I think when subject of chromed breathers came up which is one Iv'e steered clear of TDG got pretty keyed up and went defensive got others spooled up and this post sort of went sideways. I'm still leary of claims of more power from the re-venting, more from health concern of the engine not whether or not if it works he says it works okay maybe so some before &amp; after data would be nice also some oil analysis to insure that method of venting does not bring dirty air into the crankcase with abrasive possibility.


Agreed a lot still to learn on these engines, but one caveat data builds a better case for new ideas to include a study of long term effects, that said a Truce is requested.


ST, from looking at my scanner 7-10 boost would be my recommendation of max sustained boost without IC/WMI chipped or non chip, must be GMs thought as well as that is about where stock PCM clips on high IAT, only way to know for sure on your set up is to instrument &amp; read IAT.


IIRC from discussion Bill Heath's WMI does not become active and spray until 10 psi; another piece of data to know maybe somebody here can provide it; what IAT temp does boost clip on a factory PCM, I'd use that as my start point when setting a sustained boost level.

let's not forget that we're providing insight to TDG as well.


Ok so he has the inpetousness of youth, he goes to far in his statements at times, let it be. He's gaining a perspective just by being here and in 6 months he won't sound like the same bragadocio that currently raises your hackles.


Personally he reminds me of friends with the same male answer swagger, but if you clip his wings too much we'll be the loosers.


He's already admitting an intercooler is an improvement, two weeks ago he wouldn't give you that. Views are hard to accept sometimes. you can lead a horse to water and all...but untill he deceides he's thirsty he won't drink.

I'm not getting a comission from anyone. I have no products for sale at the moment, although I have a lot of ideas that I would like to capitalize on in the future. I have been awarded a patent in the past, so I have been able to "think out side of the box". When a guy makes a claim that anyone with a chip is disappointed, I feel obligated to provide balance by showing data collected on my Suburban. I don't care if you do what I do or not. I enjoy being able to out-tow others. Part of what the data is for is to show the difference between competing claims. One side has no supporting data, the other does.


It's great to hear new ideas. But when those new ideas are presented as fact and that all others are stupid, I don't listen too much.

Still wish I had them twin stainless stacks.............

QM,


Thanks for the info. I understand the concept behind the IC, but was looking for thresholds specific to our engines. In other words, what can be done before an IC becomes necessary.


BTW, I agree with your approach. What really appeals to me is a user flashable ECU with shareware developed by users. We have the forum (expertise) to develop such a package, but Eh, I don't think we will see that anytime soon.

The threshold for it is your use of the truck. If your using your truck without wanting to max it out as far as towing or street performance, then what's to gain but a few MPG. To me "intercooled" sounds HD and twin turbo sounds boss. I'd put a small "intercooled" badge on my truck or "twinturbos" if I did the mod.

Billman I also have a BD reflash Im IC. BD high pop injectors also. When I get on it i blow a hell of lot of black smoke untill boost comes in. Whats your secret? I also have 18.1 comp. Motor has run going on to weeks, but old motor blew hell of alot black smoke also.

How much resistance are you putting on the MAP sensor? What timing do you run? TDC offset?

Ruben


I don't have any secrets. You may not have best re-flash. I read not too many people happy with BD re-flash. I'm not crazy about BD. Not sure about their injectors.


Now that I think about it, I don't beat my stuff up like some of you guys. I'm assuming you guys are getting black smoke while doing these 0-60 mph tests. To me, that's pointless. I'm also at a big disadvantage with a Crew Cab Dually. My idea of 'Gettin On It' is whackin' it with the converter locked at 65-70 and watching boost and EGT climb while it puts me back into the seat until about 80-85, especially uphill. I have yet to go over 85 in this truck that I've owned for 3 years now.


I'd much rather measure my 0-60 FT. times in the racecar. Less than 1.20 seconds. 0-60 mph? Probably in the 1.5-2.0 second range.


How can I compare that to a 6500 lb. Truck?


So, in conclusion, maybe my truck does smoke a little. I just don't test it like you guys.

Geez, am I really the youngest guy postin on this site? OK, I did get a little defensive when I brought up the optic sensor tweak and the breathers. I know DS4 Pumps, and I know how to make them better, don't take my word for it, ask anyone who's bought a pump from us in the last 2 months, they've been telling me how much of a difference it makes and I'm sure they would tell any of yall the same.


There are different ways to add fuel and boost.


Nothing adds fuel like a chip or a reflash.


You hit the nail on the head Billman, nothing adds fuel like a chip does. But why would you want to? You know what happens when you demand 83mm from a DS IP? You get a ssssllllluuuurrrrreeeddd injection that occurs over ~15 degrees timing spread instead of a a sharp, crisp one. yeah, you can make it dump fuel in there and blow black smoke out the tailpipe no prob, but it doesn't make as much power as that much fuel should, and it does it at the cost of longevity to your IP, longer PW = more stress on PMD/FSOL, decreased lifespan.

how old are you tdg? im only 20.

i know u wasn supposed to sign up if u were under 18, but im only 16

but i love my truck

wish i would have had this truck when i was in highschool

Whew, I'm safe, thanks guys!

24, right TDG?


I'm 32 this fall.

25 this Winter

Ronniejoe Id like to see what that suburban of yours can do? Lets hook up two trailers of equal weight, and size, and see if you can keep with my Dodge. Give TDG a break. We all know what you know. You post it as often as possible. We are all just sharing what we can or what we maybe know.

Gee, Ruben - hook your trailer up to your Cummins and see if you can keep up with my Bro's 450hp Cummins 10 wheel tractor, with his trailer.


There is a Dodge forum here, if you want to see how far behind a Dodge you can get with whatever you got.


Now, want to talk about your IDI 18:1 6.5 street motor? We've had a few on another forum that not many 12v DI Dodges of the era could keep up with, pulling a 10k load up a 6% grade.


Blowing smoke does not blow away factual data.


Equip your 18:1 truck like rj's or Turbine Doc's, see if it doesn't make a believer of you.


Have some trouble with the DS4, ask TDG - he can help.


Not having any trouble with the DS4? Read his DS4 posts, anyway - you just might learn something. Edited by: gmctd

'Do I know what happens when I demand 83mm from my DS4 pump?' Yes. Reliable, Proven, Useful, Documented Power.


I don't know these pumps like you claim to. I can't tell you you're wrong in what you say about the pump. But why would I do this? Come on. I don't think your mods to these pumps compare to a chip/reflash.


Hey, wait a minute. Neither do you. You've STILL proved nothing.


How do you argue/disagree with experience?





It's amazing as the older I get, the less I realize I know.

How do YOU argue/disagree with experience? I've rebuilt hundreds of these pumps, and installed my fair share too. Do YOU have the experience to know how 'Reliable, Proven, Useful, and Powerful' chips are in comparison? I've shown my data, proved how it increases power and longevity, and I have more than proved my understanding of these pumps. You even said it yourself, you don't know how it compares, well guess what, I do! So I ask you, what have YOU proven?


You may have spent more time here on this Earth than me, but I've got more time and experience in fuel shops and underhoods than you'll ever have, so let me know when YOU know what a chip really does.Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

There are different ways to add fuel and boost.


Nothing adds fuel like a chip or a re flash.


You hit the nail on the head Billman, nothing adds fuel like a chip does. But why would you want to? You know what happens when you demand 83mm from a DS IP? You get a ssssllllluuuurrrrreeeddd injection that occurs over ~15 degrees timing spread instead of a a sharp, crisp one. yeah, you can make it dump fuel in there and blow black smoke out the tailpipe no prob, but it doesn't make as much power as that much fuel should, and it does it at the cost of longevity to your IP, longer PW = more stress on PMD/FSOL, decreased lifespan.





Okay I'll throw a little been there done that at this broad statement to clear a few things up, all of what I'm fixin to say is stuff that I've encountered on this truck as it is driven on the road today and in the past as I was progressively adding stuff for more power systematically.


I bought it 2nd hand in 2001 at 37K mi within two weeks owning it had classic PMD fail symptoms, dealer blew me off several times as they could not fix it if not broken. Did some INTERNET searching found the Diesel Page and thru it John Kennedy who put me on the right path of FSD fail. At this point no mods , FSD mounted on pump ala GM design only lasted 37K, so I take a little issue here that relocation to a remote cooler causes failure of the FSD.


I have stated on another thread that from my own experience, and compiling list of what others have been thru there are multiple failure modes of the FSD of which heat is one failure mode, I cured mine twice by re torque of fasteners, the 3rd go round helped but I think there is something else in the FSD body I can't access to trouble shoot right now keeping me from resurrecting it again.


A little history I've learned from some whom I'm not at liberty to reveal as it could jeopardize employment, several folks at Stanadyne did not want to locate the FSD on the pump, but under pressure from GM not wanting to develop a more robust driver and harness to control cost went with the pump mount.


Maybe not best decision to pump mount it as we have come to find, but rather than acknowledge that suspicion; business leaders at GM opted on special warranty, risk assessment deemed more cost effective to repair on case by case basis. (If it wasn't an acknowledged issue GM would not have come up with the policy)


Big business does risk assessment to decide if it is cheaper to fix all or just a few when if they get reported; what is our financial pain thresh-hold, guess where they went.


Okay why do some fail and others don't, flip over your FSD stamped right there made in Mexico, again another cost cutting measure, in world of electronics some good stuff does come from Mexico eventually they get it right. (I'm not singling out Mexico BTW it happens anywhere you shift mfg to Romania, Czech Republic, China a learning and quality control curve exists).


Proper way to do this would be to do a burn in test at real world conditions, maybe it was done initially I don't know, but as time goes on sometimes also it happens where someone gets bright idea;


Hey, we have been testing these and never found a bad one so lets stop checking. All well and good as long as your mfg process, location and raw material vendor do their parts, again not always the case trust me, I could scare you with some of the stuff I see in jet engine world that has been outsourced.


But maybe TDG is right pump mount is better than on a cooler, not enough data to say conclusively, but I will add mine mounted on the cooler has lasted longer there than on the pump with all my mods to date. Several others can make same claim, &amp; it sure is easier to change it there.


As for the 83mm squirt, mine does not stay there it peaks to 83 mm then backs down to what the engine ne

Comparison cannot be made between the two trucks in question.


One is Far Superior to the other. 'Documented' Superior I might add. Read the fine print, No. Wait. There is no fine print. Just Black &amp; White.


The other...Well...When is that Dyno Day?





Great Country America. Choose your weapon.


Some Controversy is good, No?





On Edit: He does have some nice colors in his graphs...





OH Course this is just your opinion right, AND we all know that opinion's are like ******** and all but your stinks to you. Everyone of us builds our trucks for our use. When I tow heavy,(150,000 lbs plus) I use equipment built to do just that, but would want to drive it daily. SO Most of ya's truck couldn't keep up with my old (read former) 6.2 K1500 if I got to pick the course period. But don't ask me to run with you @ anything over 75 mph on the expressway. Once again I build mine for my purpose and you do the same.

bowtie..





are you saying that your old 6.2 K1500 use to tow 150,000?? just out of curiousity????





Pete

bowtie..





are you saying that your old 6.2 K1500 use to tow 150,000?? just out of curiousity????





Pete





Nope Didn't say that


Didn't even suggest that. I said that our trucks are built to do what we need them to do.


Thanks for asking

You're right, TDG. I have proven nothing. I don't have to. Especially to you.


You, on the other hand feel the need to prove to everyone. But you haven't proved a thing, either. Where's this 'Data'?


Don't tell me you've spent more time under the hood. I've forgotten more than you know.





I am right in saying that once we get past these pumps, You haven't got a clue.


Hey, why don't you try a chrome tip on the tailpipe. It will really bring out the potential in those breathers and optic 'tweak'.

You may have spent more time here on this Earth than me, but I've got more time and experience in fuel shops and underhoods than you'll ever have, so let me know when YOU know what a chip really does.





TDG another pretty broad statement that sets you up for ridicule and lessens your credibility, I'm not attacking you; you are entitled to say what you please in defense of yourself, I'm suggesting that you might word it a little differently next time though, or take a breather before posting.


Time to tone this thread down a notch folks, starting to turn into a pi$$in contest that is counterproductive to what we are after improved performance and longevity for our ve-hicles.Edited by: Turbine Doc

Okay, back to the topic at hand chips/re-flash


I believe a question was tossed out earlier why would you want to add a chip to get more fuel when a adjustment to the pump will net the same result. Valid point evidently as TDG indicated from his results.


Fuel is only one part of the equation though, since I don't have a detailed description of PCM logic (Holy Grail find this info and a lot of supposition goes away, plus tell me where I can get my copy of it) I'll add this bit of conjecture based on what I've seen, I may have some of it wrong but I think I'm more right than wrong.


Electronic IPs are just a device pretty dumb in their own right that reacts to what the PCM tells it to do; (the tail does not wag the dog fellas) Mechanical IPs another story they are pretty much autonomous critters that do what the have been mechanically tuned to do.


You can fool the PCM by shifting the optical sensor, or offsetting TDC right or left of timing center (which is better, differing opinions here you judge on what works for you; evidently both work one that works for me is TDC offset, TDG is posting good result with optical sensor).


PCM doesn't really know how a IP is positioned, either adjustments are false biases to PCMs desired program, it sees these adjustments as deficiencies to be corrected which is how you get more fuel/performance as PCM adds more fuel or timing to meet the expected delivery curve for a given rpm/load demand.


GM in it's program has a curve that broadly stated for X rpm, at X speed, at X baro condition, &amp; X boost level I need to be running here: I'm not there so I'll either add more fuel-timing-boost to go faster or remove it to keep away from an over fuel-boost-speed condition. With timing offset, IP tweaks, boost foolers we lie to the PCM it is only reacting to input it sees from various sensors, change the output of those sensors or relation to the crank timing you effect what PCM does with the input.


Viola more grunt, PCM does not have a sanity check to say hey that is out of range in small amounts, yes it will throw a code if too far out. Those with a TM have found that it can throw a code if you hog down too much and get boost way up.


All of this addresses just the IP and how to fool it for more output, for a total system approach we need to look at the system as a whole, add more fuel, close WG, more boost, = more heat. We can remove the heat opening exhaust, removing restrictions to inlet flow so engine does not to have to work as hard to breathe in, bigger less restrictive turbos, different inj that atomize better for better burn, this stuff makes the engine do more.


Again back to the system now we have more engine power, trans has got to do it's thing to handle the power you have given it, it's working harder it gets hot now, it gets cooled by engine oil/water and ambient air, all additive and increasing with power/load, aux trans coolers, deep finned pans, HD clutch packs, shift bodies or modules to improve clutch lock up &amp; times.


Now you got it rolling real fast/strong you gotta stop, better pads, lines. rotors. I'm hoping you are getting the idea here multiple things can be done, how deep you want to go into depends what you do with your truck, again look at it as a whole system.


Oops got off track what does a re-flash/chip do, as I stated above GM has a program that sets the truck system up to a given performance level, now GM builds to a certain longevity and drive-ability, you can fool that curve with tweaks and gadgets to a point.


But PCM is still governing authority and will clip or shift depending on base programming, to do more than that you need to change that curve, this is what chipping and re-flashing does, you can still put tweaks and gadgets on top of that.


A better PCM will do more than just add fuel, it will also add timing adjust, boost &amp; trans shift at correct

There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment.


Hmmm you and I must be reading diffrent information! I have seen a lot of happy chip and reflash owners on the forums. I have been chiped for about 15,000 miles and I am very happy with the results. I added mine at 155,000 miles and wish I would have scratched up the money to do it a couple of years sooner.


If your going to chip and with a 1994 you can get a EPROM chip which is less than a reflash ECM. But with a Chip or reflash you better plan on getting a Boost and EGT gage or you could smoke your engine on a high power situation. Boost control is not needed if your factory boost is working, if your boost system is INOP then you either need to fix it or replace it with a manual system.


Now Ronnie Joe took one dirrection to get power and he's happy. I have taken a simmiular but different route and I'm happy so far. I have not add a charge cooling yet or maybe won't and I get more power without it. Yes I sure I could pull more if I had charge cooling, but I not willing to spend the bucks for a intercooler yet and the issues I have to deal with for my application. I don't have a long sustained need for high power setting and tow much over 15 miles at a shot. I think Ron is a fair guy and while he has definate views he does accept that there are different ways of going that works for us. I have only seen him try and correct issues he felt were not accurate and I see nothing wrong with that. If someone isn't mature enough to understand that we all have a right to our view and accept that we can see things different and still get along they need to take a step back and relook at life on these forums.

I'm through with this site man, you guys already know everything, so have at it.

I'm through with this site man, you guys already know everything, so have at it.


HUM Guess all you old *$$40&amp;3's have achived what you wanted. Here we go down the "do as I did road" again. You can't keep running away everyone that does toe your line. Trust me the idea that you have "proven" were laughed at by the real smart guys with all those letters behind their name, (GM engineers), until you all proved to them that you "wild idea's" might just work.


Just my two cents worth, BUT WHAT DO I KNOW

way to go guys.....drivin people off the site.......whats next?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Down.gifEdited by: steiner43511

What's next is a line in the sand between the Ideas we may discuss and the people discussing them. Ad hominim attacks are for politicians not for the diesel place 6.5 forum.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifQM,


No line in the sand necessary, TDG if you are still reading don't quit on us you DO have some insight we don't have, and I would like to see your input still, I'll be 100% I don't know all I think I know on these, nor do you from some of the broad comments I've seen you make.


Work on your presentation of what you know, curtail emotional responses and you will get less flak; some of your responses are more because I say so and who are you to question me responses, I don't think that was your intent but that is the way it reads sometimes.


I hope I haven't come across that way myself, if I have shoot me a PM and lets discuss it, email and forums are good things, but don't convey a message as well as a face to face or voice conversation, no tonal inflection to gage a persons understanding of what is being presented, a very important part of successful communication.


I've PMd you on several occasion for you to call me or a way I can call you to get a better understanding, you have chosen to offer neither option so the only thing I have to gauge you on is what you write, you need some work there.


Bow &amp; Steiner don't condemn all us fogies, I'm only 43 BTW, look at the dialog the tit for tat that did not add anything I agree maybe we as a group of enthusiasts can do a better job of offering alternative ideas, broad statements like one below however are not condusive to one accepting alternative ideas, as I for one take exception to it.


Texas Diesel Guy wrote:

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<TD class=text>There are other ways of increasing fuel too. I have yet to hear anyone on this site say anything about the chips except black smoke and dissappointment</TD></TR></T></TABLE></TD></TR></T></TABLE>


lets move on and get back to Diesel stuffhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Turbine Doc I think your a stand up guy. That was agood post. I think we all got a little carried away. Everything Ive herd on this site has been very helpful. And I hpoe we dont loose any members.

Work on your presentation of what you know, curtail emotional responses and you will get less flak; some of your responses are more because I say so and who are you to question me responses, I don't think that was your intent but that is the way it reads sometimes.


I hope I haven't come across that way myself, if I have shoot me a PM and lets discuss it, email and forums are good things, but don't convey a message as well as a face to face or voice conversation, no tonal inflection to gage a persons understanding of what is being presented, a very important part of successful communication.


Bow &amp; Steiner don't condemn all us fogies, I'm only 43 BTW, look at the dialog the tit for tat that did not add anything I agree maybe we as a group of enthusiasts can do a better job of offering alternative ideas, broad statements like one below however are not condusive to one accepting alternative ideas, as I for one take exception to it.





well i guess "Bow" is me, most of Ya ain't that much older in age than me (42), But I sure felt like I was listening to a group of My way or the highwayers trashing any one who didn't agree that your way was the the best. NOW I understand I didn't put much of any valve in the dissussion, except as a peace maker, So take that for what it is worth I guess.

OK, I was out of line with the more time underhood thing, I really don't like to incite controversy, and I'll admit, some of my statements, after rereading them, do come out a little on the agitating side, and for that I apologize to anyone I have offended / pi$$ed off.

With that said texas diesel guy, I still apreciate your pump insight especially when speaking about increasing fuel delivery and wear induced on the FSD and fuel solenoid that may result. These pumps are expensive to maintain at 60-100K miles expected lifespan per rebuild.

With that said texas diesel guy, I still apreciate your pump insight especially when speaking about increasing fuel delivery and wear induced on the FSD and fuel solenoid that may result. These pumps are expensive to maintain at 60-100K miles expected lifespan per rebuild.


I too have appreciated TDG's pump insite, most of us have never opened up a IP let alone work on them regular, I feel there is lot to be learned from most of us. I may not have the technical knowelge that some of you guys have and I am truely amazed by you. But I feel I can offer a few crumbs as I have been hanging around these sites since 1996 and have gain a small amount of info. I just don't like broad statements that either not true or misleading and I will say my peace about them, it's not ment to upset anyone just to correct the "record" so to speak, and that's just my nature. If any of you guys feel that a my way or the high way approach it isn't. It's like the great intercooler debate, I stayed out as I don't have either and don't know enough about it to add anything. I do have the current 2.0 Heath EPROM and had the earlier one and have take the time to time pulls up a steep grade with stock chip and Heath and have measurable improvement. I feel that gives me the right to comment. If several of you don't think so just speak up and I'll just go lurk and go bird hunting.

16gasxs,


Everyone's experience is broadend when you share. Share more often.