Well, my truck has been in the shop since Tuesday. The most pressing warranty item was the tranny leak. I also had them fix the a/c and look at a rough idle and octane ping sound the engine would make when lugging in gear. The tranny was diagnosed as a defective pump seal. The a/c was some miscellaneous parts that had to be ordered.

Okay, to the topic. I had a discussion with the service manager and tech concerning injector problems. They admitted that were some problems with injectors. They said most of the cases were because the owners used bad diesel, mainly dirty farm use diesel. Dirty diesel, in their opinion, was to blame. However, when I asked them about adding an auxiliary fuel filter, they said NOT TO DO IT! Their reasoning was that the installation of the filter could introduce contaminants into the system thereby ruining the injectors. They also mentioned that the whole fuel system was very touchy, and any non-spec change could alter the system and thereby damage the injectors. In other words, they would seriously look into voiding the warranty of a truck with injector problems that has a non-spec item added to the fuel system.

In MY case, this means I have to pre-filter the fuel before pumping it into the tank.

Dmaxallytech, do you have any advice or suggestions considering my situation?

Thanks!
Edited by: cdhd2001

Find a new dealer. They have no idea what they are talking about. Seriously, an additional filter ADDING contaminents to the fuel?

Whats your dealing smoking? I want some, cause it must be good stuff............http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





filters adding contaminants, lets just think about that logic for a minute, obviously makes no sense.....

Maybe they think that during the actual installation process, you would be introducing the contaminants? Installing a pre OEM filter, would allow the OEM filter to filter out these contaminants, if they were introduced. Can't figure out their logic.

They are correct about the fuel system being touchy. That's why we are adding filtration.

Yes, they are concerned about contaiminants entering the fuel system during the initial installation. Basically, they said that GM was taking the attitude of "If you tamper with the fuel system, we will deny your fuel system warranty claims!" As far as changing dealers, this one is the best I could find that works with my needs.

BS Tell them that they just lost a customer. Typical case of "we know what we are doing, and you don't". --SS

I would not recommend salmon slayer's approach. Try to reason with them. Visit with the techs in the shop. In some/most cases the service manager/dealer/salesmen are not mechanics and do not understand what you are telling/asking them. Find out exactly what their objection is and work from there. Do not comment on what you personally do not know. Tell them you don't have the answer but will find out and get back with them. Remember, you are asking for something. You cannot make them do anything. Go to the next meeting prepared. Later! Frank

The only fuel filter I know of that introduces contamiments is the stock Racor!! http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


My idle knock stopped again so I didn't go down to the dealer yesterday...was planning on getting their opinion on secondary filtration as well at that time...maybe later..


Bob

The only fuel filter I know of that introduces contamiments is the stock Racor!! http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Bob

Now that's a good one http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

The dealer SHOULD be saying something like this...

"You mean to tell me you're running this truck with only OEM filtration?.... I'm sorry Sir but we just may have to void your warranty!"

Like all the other posters I found a dealer and after a long talk and a bunch of kind bs on my part he says if the fuel goes through the o.e.m. filter do what ever you want, this way the factory cant renig on any thing cause the fuel is passing through theres. I have filtertration before and after the O.E.M. and will post results as soon as I get a kit and sent in to av lube for testing. I plan on buying from the sorriest station I can find in case I am on the road and this is all I can find.


gEnO

cdhd2001 - the only thing i can think of is that you dealer was assuming a post-oem install. the only dirt they could complain about would be the line from your post-oem filter to the engine. if you mentioned pre-oem to them they have even less ground to stand on. i would take other's advice and talk to the mechanics and get them to show the service writer the light of day.. or find another dealer.

Typical case of "we know what we are doing, and you don't". --SS


In the late 60's early 70's it was called 'Detroit attitude' and cost the industry billions in revenue avoidance when the public turned to imports.

cdhd,

That's two for two. If you can't have an intelligent converstation with these folks and there are any other dealers near you I would switch. Using the "contamination" mindset it would follow that you should never:
1. Change your own oil
2. Change your air filter
3. Allow anyone to remove any cover to any mechanical part of your truck
4. Clean your MAF sensor
5. Change the fluid in your
a. rear diff
b. front diff
c. transmission
6. Change your oil filter
7. change your transmission filter
Etc, Etc.

The point is that these sensitive trucks need to be worked on in a clean environment. Any dealer or service manager who figures we can't be smart enough to follow that requirement are rowing their boat with less than a full compliment of oars.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

Good luck,
BobEdited by: Son of a gun

Here again the dealer is covering GM(Which I suppose they are supposed to do). This is, and can be, a double edged sword. Us consumers want to make what has been deemed a lacking filtration system into a better system but by doing so you can also add a variable to the problem. I mean what if the media in the add on filter falls apart, or their was stuff in the line that was not seen. Is GM liable? I understand what GM is protecting. I guess where GM is dropping the ball on this is acknowledging the fact that the system might not be adequate and to offer a secondary filtration system as a TSB. Think about it. It is $200 bucks or so to keep Hundreds, if not thousands of customers happy and reduce the cost of failing injectors. Long term it fixes future reliability issues. This appears to be one of those Pennywise and pound foolish cliche's. One thing to consider. There an awful lot of trucks out there and we are only a handfull that post about this. and of us folks posting have we had any problems? Is the failure really that bad? Does anybody have any numbers? I am an engineer so numbers are important. Remember "A man without data is just another man with an opinion"


As I posted in another thread I change my Racor fuel filter every 10K miles regardless and have since purchase. It takes 10 minutes. I have not suffered any problems to date. 70K+ miles now

To add My personal feellings. Fellows it getting tougher every day out there, The first try at asking service about adding a nother fuel filter system the responce was dont add till after 36000 miles. This was one of the guys at the service desk in wich Ive know for 7 years and is a supper nice man, but his thinking was the warranty ran out at 36000 in wich it dont. I figured I better figure out another way to put this idea. After thinking it over I went to the Service Manager that I have also known for 7 years he had no objection at all to a PRE instaled system he would not talk about post OEM. I even got him to sign a document stating "That If I added a second PRE OEM fuel filter system it would not void or cause any warranty problems" I hope this will protect me .When contacting GM customer service the said to ask the service manager he was thier outhorized representative. And if he said ok then its ok. Doesnt seem like all the service managers out there was told or trained the same. I would think that GM would make a official statement reguarding the issue of additional filters,But im sure by doing so would show that a problem exsists , and mayby put a bigger liability on GM. I guess if a person wants to sell or trade it off at 99,999 miles or five years dont touch it. I would hope after purchasing a $43,000.00 vehicle I would not be sittin around having to think about this kind of dudu. I have no dought I can get a easy 200,000 miles out of a gasser with proper care, I would hope to think I could get the same out of a diesel that I paid $8000.00 more for, without having to spend several thousands of dollars to keep it running. At the current time I feel it is probly a gamble.

QUOTE

If you tamper with the fuel system, we will deny your fuel system warranty claims!" As far as changing dealers, this one is the best I could find that works with my needs.
================================================== =========
Hello all

This is what i keep telling all of you.. GM is looking for ways to Vold Warranty Claims and Ford is doing the same SH**t to!! I was Told many Times DO NOT ADD A 2ND Filtering system.. This was from 3 dealers and one Zone
Manager.. Lots of people keep telling us that GM and Ford
are looking of ways to Voild Claims.. I can't Gamble on having my Fuel system Volded with 200 rigs now..

Note:: We i spoke to our ford rep .. He told me I can't Add nothing to the Filtering system on the 6.0's or Ford
Can and will Vold fuel system claims.. Thank God we dont
have 6.0's

IF gm comes out with a OEM back up will have it installed
by them

From steve
Fleet Dept
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Edited by: smartfix

I am taking appointments for service work. I showed our zone rep and the three engineers he had with him this week our added filtration options. NONE of them said anything about voiding warr, only risk of possible leak points. If GM/Racor is working on a pre oem secondary filtration as a dealer added option.. How can we do damage by doing it now? Why can they be pissed if YOU want to spend a few hundred bucks to save THEM thousands of bucks down the road?????


I DONT GET IT!!!


Me

Suppose I take my truck and run it in a demolition derby once a week for a year. Then I take it in to the dealership for injection failure at say 50k miles. I will expect the work to be covered under warranty unless there is a reasonable explanation as to how I am responsible.


My warranty is not something that was given to me from my kind hearted dealership, I paid for it, and I expect it just as sure as I expect my power to be on when I get home.


Granted, the dealership has to use some discretion when authorizing warranty claims or they would be taken advantage of. They still need to maintain objectivity on a per case basis.


A threat of warranty denial for something that isn't expressly harmful is poor customer service, unethical and may even be illegal. They need to be told that thier attitude is not acceptable and pointed in a progressive direction.


I know it is difficult to stand up to big companies on issues like these especially after you have made the purchase. That is why you need to do business with a company that conveys some respect for your consmer rights. --SS

You know, this all seems so silly. Again you would think GM would assess this system and make recommendations. I called my local dealership and asked if they had a high incidence of injector failures. He said No. The biggest return was for the rattling steering. I asked him about the filtration addition. He did not recommend it. He said "Although it sounds like a good idea" he said "Voided warranties are high on the radar" as they have gotten back a significant amount of trucks for various failures and most had indications of added power boxes of some sort. He said that Service Departments vary in their approach on how to assess these issues and then respond. I had a interesting issue when I took my truck in for the rattling steering. They saw I had added the boost and EGT gauges on the pillar. They said that would put my truck as suspect to any warranty return. My saving grace is I have been friends with the parts manager for years and he knows I have not added anything to enhance power but I wanted to see EGT's as I blister through the desert pulling 11K lb trailer.


He did ask this though. Why the big concern on the additional filtering? I told him about what has been posted. He recommended that we all be very careful about adding anything to the truck that could open a door for a warranty claim issue. It appears this is a very sensitive issue.

Quote from last post

He recommended that we all be very careful about adding anything to the truck that could open a door for a warranty claim issue. It appears this is a very sensitive issue.

Very http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Big timehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Smokinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif
================================================== ========
Hello all

Again BS from Zone manager and GM and Cheif

I was told if we add any filters .. Quote per GM We have
the Right to Voild any and all Clams to do with you Fuel
System .. YOu made a Change to your System and now GM is
in there Rights to Voild you Clam.. Quote Do note Add or break system open if done Dealer has full rights to Voild
fuel system repairs http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Dealers will be told in FL to look for any after market filtering system .. This
is very wrong What can we do nowhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif GM is also going
to send out a memo to all dealers in the us in the next 60 days QUOTE!!

From steve
Fleet Dept

Sure, if you have an injector failure, they could point to your secondary filter and deny the claim. The question is, can they make the denial stick?

When push comes to shove, it's not going to matter a bit what some service manager or zone manager or even GM has to say. It'll come down to what's written in the warranty. That's the legal obligation they have to fix your vehicle, and it's not something they can change after they've sold you the vehicle. If their denial contradicts the written warranty, they'll lose.

The warranty says failures caused by alteration are not covered. To deny a warranty claim, they'll have to make the argument that an alteration you made caused the failure.

So it's really simple. If you're willing to accept the possibility of having to make that argument, and you're comfortable that you can win if you do, go ahead and add a filter.

For me personally, I felt I could win the argument in a pre-oem installation. Not sure I could in a post-oem. So even though post-oem seems more logical to me, I went pre-oem.

Not to be the devil's advocate here, but I've hesitated NOT putting on a secondary filter for this very reason:


The warranty says failures caused by alteration are not covered.


I think that you have to look at it like an alteration, although I tend to believe that it's a good "alteration", and there's definitely some merit in it.


With that said, GM's current position is change your fuel filter every 15K. IF, I do change my filter every 15K, AND my injectors fail shortly AFTER 100K, then there's a problem. At this point, they're off the hook, and they don't have to cover anything. This really concerns me. HOWEVER, I just don't have the money laying around to be DENIED a warranty claim because I altered the fuel system.


I contend, that no matter how you slice it, it IS a fuel system alteration, and GM definitely is within their rights to void the warranty on ANYTHING fuel related, AND if GM DOES issue an "official" statement AGAINST secondary filtering, they had better get the PRIMARY filter fixed. If they don't, it sounds like a class action suit to me. If they officially say, "No secondary filters allowed", and then injectors cannot make it past 100K, GM's gonna be held liable.


cadman_ks

Quote!! from last post
The warranty says failures caused by alteration are not
covered.
================================================== =========
is anyone on this board a lawyer .. I spoke to my lawyer


He Told us When adding a Filter system you are Alterationing
the system.. There for GM has full rights to voild this claim.. Case Would not win for us .. 1st Q he ask me is This a GM OEM unit.. If you state no your down a round..

GM States NO ALTERATIONs are covered and GM has the Right to voild you claim.. So go to court get a lawyer and have
you truck sit around doing nothing till you win the case
if you can 3 years down the road ..

I'm looking to put in a simple REC system in the tank on a 12 volt pump

Hope some of you have some better answers to shoot down GM

From steve
Fleet depthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Edited by: smartfix

How can they be that against it if a racor rep said that even racor is going to make their own kit? if that were the case why would racor bother? there's a lot of things i don't will fly with a dealer but i've talked to my dealer and they said as long as its pre-oem they're fine with it. also my dealer isn't the most friendly. they tried to question my fuel rail leak based on the stickers on my truck. they thought i was running a pressure box which i wasn't. i wasn't running anything but new exhaust and gauges at the time. they finally believed me after a few minutes of me asking what a pressure box was, what does it do, etc...


here's another thought. if you're that worried install it pre-oem, that way you can easily reverse it back to stock and they'll never know..

If I have to take mine in for service, I'll be sure and tell them about the added filter so they know it's there and what to do with it. No big deal. Some dealers are SOB's though. Thankfully mine is cool.

Of course adding a fuel filter is an alteration; that's not even in question.

But to deny the warranty claim, that's not enough. The warranty says the failure has to actually be caused by the alteration. That's an important distinction.

GM put that in the warranty, in writing. Doesn't much matter if they come out and say something else after the fact.

.... Some dealers are SOB's though. Thankfully mine is cool.


Hoot, while I agree that dealers are all different, that doesn't help someone when they're on vacation, 7 states away from home, pulling a 10K 5th wheel, their injectors go, and they're in po-dunk-ville, nowhere, with a service manager holding a letter from GM stating that ALL secondary filtering VOIDS ANY fuel related warranties.


Good luck. You're gonna need it to avoid paying out $4000. Good luck getting your "good" dealer to get your money back as well.


cadman_ks

Using the same logic, replacing the OEM fuel tank with a larger Transfer Flow tank is also messing with the fuel system. True or false?


Personally, I think a court battle would cost more than a set of injectors and it's still a crap shoot.

Has anyone on this forum or the 10K members on the Dieselpage had a fuel system warranty rejected because they had a second fuel filter? Has any dealer shown anyone a letter yet? How many dealers treat their customers like this? My service manager called today and asked if I was interested in installing my secondary filter setup for one of his good customers. I will as soon as I can find someone with a Racor 660 in stock. Later! Frank http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

... Has any dealer shown anyone a letter yet? ...


No not yet, but it wouldn't be the first time that this has happened. IIRC Ford do something like this when people starting altering their fuel systems to stop cackle. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


... How many dealers treat their customers like this? ...


Who knows? I haven't brought this up with my dealer, but I think that if I was to ask, they would probably say yes, AT THIS POINT. HOWEVER, if they had some sort of "official" documentation from GM saying that they could/would deny fuel system warranties because of secondary filtration, I think that they would be on the bandwagon immediately.


I guess that I don't think that makes my dealer a bad dealer. Maybe I'm really wacked on this. I work in an industry that has to deal with customers doing stuff similar to this all the time, or lying about what they DID do.


I personally can't blame GM for their position, but that doens't let them off of the hook either, IF they indeed do a have a SERIOUS problem.


cadman_ks

Regardless of what a dealer, service manager, regional rep tells you, they can't deny warranty for addition of non-oem parts unless they can prove that said parts caused the failure. Search the net for Magnuson-Moss Act. Bring this act up when the service people say you can't do it. They will crawfish!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

I think most of us here are worrying way too much. Yes there have been some cases of injector failure. How many, I'm not really sure I've never really counted them.


Look at it this way though, between the spill over from this page to the other page, say there's maybe 12,000 users. People worrying about injector failure is high, actual reports of injector failure seems really low. 4 years into production, we represent only a very small % of D-max users. It also is likely that a % of the % of failures was installation/build problems.


It's still too soon to know how much life we're adding to our engines with secondary filtration, but over the next two years we'll get more data to compile.


Personally I've got 8500 miles on my secondary(installed since 8100 miles). I know I'm doing better for the injectors but only time and miles will tell how much extra life I may get from them.

First thing Im going to do is take a fuel sample from original set up this will show the fuel ISO code for fuel going through original filter. This will document what type of fuel their filter is letting through, and secondly I think if I added a second filter I would then get a fuel sample to show the fuel ISO is going to be better. It would be funny If I was told " look since the fuel is cleaner by adding a second filter you voided your warranty" " and we will prove that by cleaning your fuel you caused a system failure and this results in warranty problem" Fellows before anything Gm is going to have to prove your modification caused the dammage. But in my opion they have enginers that would probably say anything they are told. I truly believe we now live in the days of through away vehicles. It is sad but most of the people out there could not start to service or do many repaires on there own vehicles . Thier building these autos to where the avarage man has no chance of working on em .I think only thing the auto manufactures are worried with is getting the vehicle through the warranty period. Dave

Regardless of what a dealer, service manager, regional rep tells you, they can't deny warranty for addition of non-oem parts unless they can prove that said parts caused the failure. Search the net for Magnuson-Moss Act. Bring this act up when the service people say you can't do it. They will crawfish!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif

Another guy wrote.......

"The warranty says failures caused by alteration are not
covered."

That is understood with any alteration. Now is the dealer going to tell you that added filter caused....

Leaking injector cups
Leaking injectors
Leaking return lines
HP pump damage

How would a filter cause this? I guess the only thing they can call is a dirty install. If the faiure occurs right after you install the filter that could be the case.

At your own risk I guess.

I run a post OEM filter and propane injection. Risky but I'm willing to take a certain amount. I have pics of my filter install prcess in case they question my cleanliness. Not a guarantee but I have something in case they decide to give me a hard time. I have found overall GM is pretty lax with these types of things... as long as they aren't obviously done by somebody that doesn't know what they are doing.

If a filter helps prevent a breakdown on the road, I'd take that over no filter breakdown. Hopefully my filter will add many miles of life to my injection system. What can it do wrong? Nothing in my view.

The thing about all of this is dealers handle these things differently. Some dealers look for every excuse to keep from touching the truck cause they don't have a competent diesel mechanic.

....


The thing about all of this is dealers handle these things differently. Some dealers look for every excuse to keep from touching the truck cause they don't have a competent diesel mechanic.


That's very true. I don't know how GM is going to address this situation, but with more and more diesels on the road (especially in GM's case, now that they have a decent one), the dealers are going to have to step up to the plate. Their days of running and hiding are getting fewer and fewer...


cadman_ks

Since the market crash after 9/11 many pension funds are in the dumper. I read somewhere that GM needs $1,700 from every vehicle sale to pump the pension funds back up to where they should be. This may be the reason we no longer have lights under the hood, thinner sheet metal, denied warranty claims. GM has to maintain a profit to stay in business, and replentish the pension funds. It's a tough row to hoe.

Basically, it DOES NOT MATTER what the Warranty or Magnuson-Moss Act says in legal terms. Any dealer HAS the ability to red flag your vin number and deny warranty for any alteration to the truck. In most cases GM will back them up 100%. GM or the dealer DOES NOT have to prove legally that your aftermarket add-on caused the failure. YOU, THE CONSUMER, HAS TO PROVE IN A COURT OF LAW THAT YOUR AFTERMARKET ADD-ON DID NOT CAUSE THE FAILURE!!! In the courts or by arbitration, the consumer is guilty until proven innocent. California is probably the only exception to the rule.

Here is an example that happened to me:
I bought a new 1998 Chevy c/k from a dealer (different town, different dealership). After two months I brought in complaining it was sluggish. They couldn’t find anything wrong. This dealer also sold Hypertech programmers. They said if I bought one from them that they would still cover the warranty on the truck. OK, I bought it from them. Three months later the truck wouldn’t start. They towed it in and diagnosed it. The computer had failed. They fixed it and handed me a $500 bill. I said “no”, you guys told me it wouldn’t void the warranty if I bought it from you! They said the warranty on the truck was only for defects, not aftermarket alterations. In conclusion, I hired a lawyer and had it investigated. Legally the dealer was right, because it was an aftermarket alteration, and to win in court I would have to prove that it was not my fault. I was given a 20% chance of winning. Estimated cost of court fees would have been five times the cost of the bill. Guess what? I paid the bill and never bought from them again!

It took me a few weeks of working with my service manager, and his gm rep. He finally gave a a peice of paper, hand written, that states he will cover any part that fails if i install the filter. He will not cover any parts that were added by me... And he wanted to see the install after I was done.... I have yet to have any trouble... and that hand written note will probably not do crap for me if i get into trouble..... But, Im only and hour and half from Eric, so thank god.....


Good luck

Its just my two cents but I sure wouldn't bank on hideing behind some obscure act that companys who run on pryamid schemes like to spout off about. If you get in a pinch with a dealer you are already sunk. I am totally lost on why anyone would feel they could "win" a debate with GM or any OEM for that matter once the dealer has put out their descision. Yeah, mention that act and the only act you will see is your butt going out the door. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif I do think its a risk to alter and we each have to make that descision when we alter a vehicle. Their are , thankfully, some great dealers to make up for some lousy ones. Of course if you are home in your garage when the truck pukes you would have the time to take the filter, chips etc out and avoid any hassels. But on the road.......I am not sure how many of you guys are buisiness owners and deal ( ie pay ) counselors on a regular basis. Let me say based on extensive personal experience you will spend several fold in legal fees fighting ANY oem on a issue like this. Which is really a waste of time and money as simply put you have voided your own warranty by the letter of the contract. Yet, most service managers DO appreciate that you are trying to improve the longevity of your vehicle with extra filteration. The trouble is the speed of light is faster than the speend of sound. Someone else might seem bright....untill their voice catches up http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

hello all

The last few post are very good points.. Thats all i need
to have my trucks in the shop and now GM will not fix them
and red tag my vin so i can't go to a new dealer.. I spoke to my close friend that works at FORD.. Guys and all They DO red tag vins for adding none oem to you fuel system..
He told me his shop manager goes by the book.. He told me
you now have a 40,000 rig that is not repaired and it will cost you 3,000 to get it back on the road .. It will take you years in court and big bucks.. NOTE! I did call a chevy Dealer upstate Ny and ask the shop manager Can he install a backup Fuel filter.. 1st Thing He said Sorry can't do it Reason its not OEM and you CANT open our cut into your fuel system..

From stevehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Unhappy.gif

In that case be sure to chose your 100% stock truck brand wisely!

I don't blame anyone for staying stock. Now if you could find a way to filter your fuel before introducing it into the fuel system http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Edited by: hoot

What some one REALLY needs to do is come up with a quick attachment to the oem fuel filter head that will allow the use of a 2 micron filter in PLACE of the stock one. If you have any troubles just turn the aftermarket one off and put the oem back on http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif or work on excuses....No si habla espangole ! Its my wifes truck etc http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Here's my take on it:


I bought this truck to go 300,000 miles, not 100,000 miles. It seems to me that adding aux filtration is a procedure aimed at the period of time after the warranty has lapsed. What good does it do me to get to 100,000 under warranty if the injectors go out at 136,000??? Put another way, if I didn't run the filter, and I made it through warranty, I'd be more worried that the injectors would go out within 50,000 miles of 100K than I am of running the filter now, having the injectors go out within warranty anyway, and then having some ash-hole dealer crucify me for a procedure which is properly characterized as preventative maintenance. That's like switching to synthetic in the crankcase and having warranty denied because it's not OEM. Huh?


It seems, on balance, that running the filter is the safer bet, as there has to be a coalescing of unfavorable factors to really get screwed (and I am fully aware of Murphy's Law), while the alternative means that you very likely WILL experience injector failure out of warranty, which you WILL certainly have to pay for, before the high mileage many of us expect is ever reached.


I'm betting I get to 100,000 with no injector issues (I think it's a safe bet even without aux filtration), at which point I will be SO glad I put in the filtration. (Heck, as long as I'm outside the lines, maybe adding another filter would be a good idea).


If I don't, all is not necessarily lost. I can be a VERY unsavory combatant when getting the sharp end of the screw. Moreover, I think I'd have a good case if it ever went to adjudication, which I am not afraid of. After all, legal fees ARE collectible on top of actual damages, and my understanding of Magnusson is that the dealer has the burden of proving that the modification caused the damage (I'll doublecheck on that and post).


Moreover, I have the Nicktane setup, and I carry a toolbox. Guess what? The factory QD line is in the toolbox. If I knew I had an ash-hole dealer, and anything were to go bad, I'd spend the two hours yanking out the Nicktane and re-installing the OEM line before I took it to the dealer. Yes, even if I had to do it on the side of the road.


I've already given my service rep a bottle of good Merlot, with assurances of more favors to come. He red-flags me on the fuel filter setup at 6000 miles, he's out early.


I'm going to work on getting a written statement, maybe by calling local dealers and asking them about aux filtration, taking the truck to whomever is friendliest on the issue, and then getting something in writing in exchange for a good bottle of Scotch.


Hey Eric, whatcha drinkin???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Rick

Rick, hey I'm not dissagreeing with you at all of your base point and I personally am going to go with a filter. Just dont be misslead by some obscure act. Yes legal fees can be awarded, BUT in point of fact they RARELY are. The court is certainly NOT obligated to do so. Ask your advisors or call any barrister worth his/her snuff and they will tell you the same thing. Better yet drop Amsoil a note and ask them how many cases they have won under this little act they love to spout off about. You will not get an answer other than the old spin cycle. I know, I asked. There have been a number of warranty claims denied for the use of synthetic products. Amsoil had a LOT of problems early on with their ATF. Just one of the reasons others here use Grape juice while in warranty. I doubt any one of us has deep enough pockets to go toe to toe with GM in court. The fine point others are makeing is that you will not know in advance if you have OTR failure you will/wont wind up in a dealership that is by the book. It would be a real PITA to have problems here and have my truck towed 2 hours to a dealer that is not opposed to this upgrade. Does any one have a auxillary tank ? can you filter the fuel comeing out of the tank when you pump to the truck ?

My service manager called today and asked if I was interested in installing my secondary filter setup for one of his good customers. I will as soon as I can find someone with a Racor 660 in stock. Later! Frank http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Frank, I gottem on the shelf

BlueMaxxxx, the auxiliary fuel tank is something I mentioned a few weeks ago. It would seem to be safer (warranty wise) to fill an auxiliary tank, then transfer it thru a filter to the OEM tank, thereby leaving the OEM fuel system stock.

Also, some items like chips can be easily removed for warranty service, whether at home or on the road. This auxiliary fuel filtration stuff is not as easy to remove. This is my only point of the filtration. I think it is needed, I just don't want to get screwed out of the warranty.

As a coworker loves to remind me, "I get in more trouble for trying to stay out of trouble than anybody he's ever known!" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

I have been looking at auxillary tanks but have not seen any hose or pump filters that would offer this protection. If any one has any input on this I would like to hear about manufactures of such units.

All this talk about warranty issues is why I decided to recirculate the fuel from the tank through the filter/lift pump and back into the tank. I didn't touch the stock fuel system (other than 2 holes in the tank itself) but my fuel gets run through a 2 mic filter many more times than you guys with the pre and post filters.

It was precisely for this reason I decided to install the Racor 660r between my transfer flow system and the factory tank. I researched to see if the transferflow pump could handle the job and was satisfied with the answers I got. The transferflow pump is rated at 6psi @1/2 gpm. I installed a 0-15lb fuel pressure gauge with the electric sending unit on the inlet side of the Racor. When I have about 15,000 miles or see about 3psi on the gauge I will replace the Racor.

"Hey Eric, whatcha drinkin??"


Rick, just some cold long necks for me.


I think I will just start a mobile service for all you guys, so you aint gotta worry about stripping the truck down in the driveway for a day to take it in for work...


Eric

All this talk about warranty issues is why I decided to recirculate the fuel from the tank through the filter/lift pump and back into the tank. I didn't touch the stock fuel system (other than 2 holes in the tank itself) but my fuel gets run through a 2 mic filter many more times than you guys with the pre and post filters.

Show us more if you could.

Filtering the fuel tank sounds like a great idea. As much as possible, this solution solves the problem at the source.

Hoot, I'll try to take a few pics later and try to post them. If I can't figure out how to I'll just send them to ya, Cas

Really, the only reasons I can see for the dealer denying a warranty claim because of a post OEM filter or even a pre OEM filter, is because they don't have a very good Dmax tech, that does not understand the problem(s), or they just do not want to deal with the problem period. To deny a warranty claim because of an addition piece of equipment installed to PROTECT the engine is a real "cop out" in my opinion.


Eric has shown us with his expertise, that he truly understands the Duramax engine, and what causes it's ailments. If GM wants to survive in the diesel pickup market, they need to educate ALL of their techs to Eric's level of understanding and expertise.


If I am denied a warranty claim on my Dmax, it's back to big block gassers for me. I wish they would have left the radio out, and put a better fuel filter system instead, if they want to cut costs.

Hoot, I'll try to take a few pics later and try to post them. If I can't figure out how to I'll just send them to ya, Cas

Either way would be great.

hoot

Steeltech, can you elaborate more on your system ? Where did you place the Racor at ? I really want to run an auxillary system. I am otr a LOT and stopping for fuel is a pain in the butt. Not to mention next to impossible to find some places. what I am also wondering is if any one uses a auxillary tank like the Dee Zee with a electric pump handle. I am wondering if a 2 micron filter could be installed on the hose comeing out of the tank. That way I would be filtering everything I put into the OEM tank and my tractor. I should also add that I think the chance of running into dealer troubles with extra filteration rates up their with your odds of being hit by lightening. But then people do get struck. It is simply a calculated risk either way. No right or wrongs here just better choices for each of us as individuals. I just hate to see others miss lead into thinking that their is NO chance of dealer troubles or that they will be able to win a battle with any OEM on some very fine minutia in the law. Battleing with any OEM will most likely NOT be a effecaceous use of your $$$$. It does little good to get reimbursed 5k after 5-25k in legal fees. Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

BlueMaxxxx I did the same thing as Steeltech. I mounted my 690S 2micron filter in the bed next to the 50 gal aux tank. Ran output hose from the in-line fuel pump that comes with the tank to the Racor. Easiest aftermarket filter install IMHO. I went in-bed mount since it was easiest for my setup, and protects the filter very nicely.


Mike

Can you post or email photos of that ? Where you at in SE Mi ??? I would really like to see that set up. The auxillary stuff is really new to me. Is your tank tied to your OEM tank or do you have a pump like the gas station that you pump into your OEM tank ? Thats the way I want to go so I can take it out easily if I need to and I can run filtered fuel in my tractor. Did you install your self ? Did you buy some kit or how did you get a head for the Racor in the line ? How is the tank tied down in the bed ? I have a bed liner I would like to keep in. Dave

Just thought i'd add a bit.. i had a Chevy dealer in CA call me today.. they just installed one of my kits for a customer and want to start buying them from me in bulk to sell and install for their customers. just more proof that one dealer can be so much different from the rest!


Nick

Nick, do you think you filter would work on a in line fuel hose ? The electric gear pumps I am looking at run 15 GPM. I guess I would have to take the hose to a shop someplace to have it cut and spliced in. Do you think this would work or have you seen it done ? Dave

Hey Hoot here are the pics you wanted. That the muffler on one side and the drive shaft on the other so it's a tight fit to work on. Cas


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/D79_Untitled-3.jpg


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/C84_Untitled-4.jpg


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/C8F_Untitled-5.jpg

Hello all

I want to build a rec system for our trucks.. Anyone have
some good ways to add one to the oem tank with out making
more holes.. I like to try to is the oem fuel lines some
how.. I know will have to buy a small pump used on the 6.5
units

From steve
Fleethttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

BlueMax, 15 GPM is a big pump. Later! Frank http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

What good does it do me to get to 100,000 under warranty if the injectors go out at 136,000???


I'm betting I get to 100,000 with no injector issues (I think it's a safe bet even without aux filtration), at which point I will be SO glad I put in the filtration. (Heck, as long as I'm outside the lines, maybe adding another filter would be a good idea).





A very good point is made here. A lot of time and research is spent calculating and determining the point of failure. Once the average point of failure is determined then the manufacture can establish a warranty period just below the point of failure.


The purpose of the warranty is to correct the potential problems that may occur during the earliy use of a product. It is meant to entice you, give you a security blanket, and hopefully persuade you to buy their product over a competitors. The warranty is not there to protect you as a comsumer for the life of the product.


It is up to us, the consumer, to make the product last beyond the warranty period. As far as a manufacture is concerned, once the warranty expires the product has met its expected life-cycle. Anything beyond that is good. However, once if fails it should be replaced.


Manufacture's make money selling new products, not repairing existing products.

Blue Maxxx:


I mounted similar to vfrider except I mounted the filter under the bed on the outside of the frame close to the filler neck. The transferflow system ties into the filler with a special fitting. The installation was quick and easy as is changing the filter. Go to the transferflow web site to see the available products. I have the UFS express 70 gallon tank. It is mounted on top of the spray in liner. It has a brain that is tied into the factory wire from the sending unit to the gauge. When the gauge gets to approx. 1/2 the transferflow pump is activated and fills the tank to about 3/4. The system is designed to be troublefree and has worked as designed. The only drawback is not having the ability to know exactly how much fuel is in the transferflow tank. I just estimate with miles traveled. Hope that helps.

Steve,


if you are going to use some of your OEM lines to recirc fuel, won't that cause the same potential dealer-related issues you were trying to avoid w/ secondary filtration? after all, if you tap in to the in or out lines of the tank you will be doing something very similar to a pre-oem install.. doing what finishman did is probably the only way to not touch the oem lines.. however i bet GM could still say something if they WANTED to, no matter what you do aside from nothing at all..

Agree with Nick on the recirc idea. You are still altering the OEM fuel system by cutting into the tank. Me, I am going to relax and have a beer. If push comes to shove, than I will just put the $150 jumper line back in.

Thanks fishman. Hoew does it work, electrically? Relay hooked up to what signal?

Frank, 12-15 GPM seems the norm for the electric fuel pumps I am looking at. Theese are for refueling style tanks not the pumps like the transferflow system. Basicly I want a self contained fuel cell in the bed that holds at least 70 gallons with a gas pump and handle just like a filling station. Ideally I would like to have the filter in the hose between the tank and the pump handle.

Hoot, I had a fuse block installed in the cab that 1/2 work on ign and the other 1/2 on all the time. I installed the switch for the pump in one of the trays and amde a side panel to cover the open end.


I think GM would have a tough time saying I changed their system. My system is closed and doesn't change the way their pump/filter draw fuel. I feel that the pre-filters does change how fuel is "sucked" to the motor and the post filter adds sore resistance to the same. I not saying these systems will hurt anything but your chances to get a claim in. IMHO Cas


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/FEF_switch.jpg

Thanks fishman.

Looks simple enough.

Finishman


Your truck is almost as dirty as my http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Heart.gifwifes truck!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Hoot


Has anyone found out if a pusher pump will damage the sucker systemhttp://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw%20Up.gif for sure I was thinking of adding the old 6.5 frame mounted pump but I think it flows at 10 psi.

BlueMaxxxx I'll try to post some pics soon.. The system I have is fairly permanent, stays in the bed and is designed to integrate with the OEM tank. My OEM fuel guage registers my total capacity. Did the install myself, don't trust anyone elsehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif. There are refueling tanks out there which I think is more what your after. Transferflow makes one http://www.transferflow.com/html/refueling_tanks.html. Transferflow makes quality products, but are pricey. I'm sure you could find something to fit your needs. My rig modifications are all geared toward towing my 5th.

Finishman,


I like your approach, but I'm still confused how the filter connects to the fuel tank.


Did you say you drilled new holes in the fuel tank? If so, how did you attach the fuel lines to the new openings?


Also, I couldn't tell the orientation from the photos, but I assume your openings are closer to the bottom of the fuel tank, otherwise a low fuel condition could have the pump pushing air. True?

Ray403Dmax, I drilled two holes at the highest point I could and still fit the washers in flat. I used bulkhead fitting that has a flare on both ends. Two pieces of steel tubing attached to the inside on tank with 90' bends so I pull from one of the tank and put back in on the other. Steel washers on the inside with some gas caulk and on the outside a teflon /steel washer (caulked again) then the nut . Hose with push on fillting attached right to the flares. I was luckey in that I had a spare tank and did all the plumbing on tank before hand and if I screwed up the tank I have a spare. It went much easier than I thought it would and it works great. I may add the heater to the racor before winter. All fittings and hose are Parker. Cas

Finishman,


Thanks, I understand. One other question comes to mind. Do our fuel tanks have an access/maintenance opening that makes it easy to apply the washers, etc on the inside?

The tank has a huge hole in the top. When you drop the tank you will have no problems reaching in and working.

Anyone here heard of the Moss-Magnuson Act?





Jess

[ Anyone here heard of the Moss-Magnuson Act?]


jess,


yea, why do you ask?

It is up to the manufacturer to PROVE that the add on caused the problem, not just say it COULD be a problem. You are still talking arbitration and or litigation though. The best bet is still to make sure that adding the fuel filter will not cause the dealer to get his panties in a wad.


Jess

I really think if it were not for Amsoil spreading this hype no one would know about this act. You are partly correct. The difference is how much $$$$ it will cost you to find that out in person if you rely on this miss info and get yourself in this position. The dealer does not have to prove squat. Your warranty is VERY clear, mess with the system = Void the warranty. No need to run about like chicken little with worry. Some products even require all labor under warranty to be by authorized dealers only. We all need to first have a trustworthy dealer and secondly we need to keep the relationship with that dealer on very good terms. If you do get in this pinch it will NOT be the dealer that you will be debateing with it will be GM's attorneys. You have lost before you set foot in the door. Drop the boys at Amsoil a little note and ask them just how many cases they have won for their customers under this act. I will save you the trouble. The corporate spin off answer is ......plenty.... yeahhh Right http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: BlueMaxxxx

I really think if it were not for Amsoil spreading this hype no one would know about this act. ....


I agree totally on the Amsoil/aftermarket thing. Most of what you hear about this act has been perpetrated by aftermarket companies as a way to legitimize their products. I have nothing against any of these aftermarket products, and I actually think that they definitely have a place in the market.


When this topic came up the other day, I did a quick search in google for the "Moss-Magnuson Act". Amazingly, about 75%+ of the hits were from companies claiming that their product was safe to use because of this act.


I'm NOT a lawyer, but I personally don't think that we as consumer's have a snowball's chance of winning any of these cases. In some respects the law sounds a little skewed to me. I don't EVER see GM tyring to PROVE that what you did was wrong. They're just going to say that it was altered, and that's that. I think that you'll spend more money and time fighting them than it's worth. Earlier in this thread, smartfix DID talk to his lawyer, and said that he would NOT win in court. Maybe, I'm just totally pessimistic, but somehow I get the feeling that's the case.


Does anyone know of anyone that's ever successfully fought any auto company on this claim, and won, WITHOUT spending more than they would have otherwise if they had not fought the case???


cadman_ks

Cadman, Thats exactly right. The act refered to is totally moot. The stiff suits for any OEM are NOT going to march into court and try to prove any thing. They are simply going to point to the warranty and your case will be dissmissed. End of story. Thats one of the reasons that propaganda based corp's love to spew this crud. Its sort of like a veiled half truth. The act does exist, it is legitimate etc. So is the fact that the courts can award you reimbursement for your legal fees. But in reality that just does not happen. In fact you have a better chance of winning the lottery twice in one week. Another way this act gets tossed about is the claim by Amsoil that any OEM can not void your warranty if you use a specific product brand. IE OEM oil filters Vs Fram. Try useing a Fram oil filter on a cummings and have a engine failure with that filter. Your warranty....POOF ! Chrysler has published in writeing that their are certain products that will void the warranty. Fram had a bad run of filters so that was the result. By that measure they all ready have established their burden of proof. Historical failures work well for them to have a claim dissmissed. Back to GM. I am certainly going to run a pre-oem Fuel filter. I personally feel the risk is worth the small chance of being denied service. Its just a personal choice. I know if I have severe engine problems I can always have it towed for three hours over to Eric. No it wont be cheap but it will cost less than a new set of injectors. The same is true for running FPPF or primrose Vs the GM approved Stanadyne. But unless they test your fuel they don't have much to go on. It goes on and on, chips, air filters, tires (Please) etc etc.

Finishman, arent you concerned about heat from the exhaust being so close to the filter bowl ? My concern with this system is a rock cracking the plastic element at the bottom, especially right over the exhaust.

cdhd2001 said in the 1st post:


"In MY case, this means I have to pre-filter the fuel before pumping it into the tank. "


I had the same thought. Why wouldn't one filter the fuel on the way to the tank (between the nozzel and tank filler) and preclude the use of a pre/post filter?

Lakedaisy - we can't do that due to the flow rate's of filters that go down to the micron level we need..

BlueMaxxxx, No, there are no dents in my driveshaft, no scratchs on the bottom of my bed or muffler. The filter is up higher than it looks in the pic and should be fine. As far as heat goes, I'll take all I can get come winter. The muffler doesn't get that hot even in summer. Cas

"Your warranty is VERY clear, mess with the system = Void the warranty."

You must have a different warranty book, because mine says the opposite. It VERY clearly says the warranty WILL be honored even if you mess with the system, so long as you don't cause the problem.Edited by: ZFMax

ZF Max, This point is totally moot IF a dealer says your warranty is voided. How do you think they are going to deny a claim and then say you didn't cause the problem ??? That is rather the point that is being made here. They WILL in point of fact claim you caused the problem. Perhaps we dont have the same manual. Heres a select quote from mine . " Damage caused as the result of any of the following is NOT covered.. Alteration or modification of the vehicle ." http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Now if you want to argue that out with GM's brigade of barristers feel free. But for my money I think I will avoid standing on a looseing case. Its pretty darn tough in this scenario to claim you didnt alter your vehicle. IF you have a problem in the fuel system that is denied ( ie=injectors ) . Who knows, after 20k or so in legal fees you just might win. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Maybee you would be kind enough to let us know the source and page where your owners manual says " they will repair even if you mess with it ". That would be very nice http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Hello to all

I'm going to keep this short... The Bottom line GM can Voild your claim if they feel you altered something.. The
Bottom line.. If they will not fix your fuel system.. and
they tell you it will cost 4,000 for the job and the service manager tells you sorry.. Well i hope you have the
4,000 to fix it to get it out of the shop 1st.. Now your
pissed at chevy ..Now go find a lawyer for 10,000 or more
and wait 2 to 3 years.. You are playing with fire now..
I'm on your side guys.....I WAS DOWN THis road with ford
1 time and it cost me around 18,000 and got no where.. with are fleet.. The Dealer Added a sh*t kit.. Trans Fryed 2 times I had to eat the cost for a new unit.. I was real pissed. My lawyer took my case and 2 years latter still in court

You will not Win .. The big 3 have big $$$ to spend and they will.. There are lots of cases out there not tolded

I'm not playing this game no more.. I want to add a backup filter.. Just might do this on our rig only

From steve
Fleet Owner

PS Guys you Can't win 18,000 Down the Drainhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Let me get this right ... you acknowledge that the warranty manual reads "Damage caused as the result of ..." and you read that as meaning "mess with the system = Void the warranty"? Seriously?

Okay http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Seriously, I wasn't arguing all these theories about what could or might or will happen should a person have a claim. I don't presume to know how it would turn out, although I can say that personally, I'm not afraid of a fight. But whatever, that's a choice everyone's gotta make for themselves. I was just pointing out how wrong that one claim of yours is. You claimed the warranty says that (Very clearly!). That's not what the warranty says, in fact it says the opposite.

Let me get this right ... you acknowledge that the warranty manual reads "Damage caused as the result of ..." ....


You claimed the warranty says that (Very clearly!). That's not what the warranty says, in fact it says the opposite.


Sorry, but the warranty does NOT say "the opposite", because that would read:


"Damage caused as the result of alteration WILL be covered under warranty."


If your claim is that it says "JUST THE OPPOSITE", then I'm with BlueMaxxxx, show me where it says that they WILL cover it if it's altered...


cadman_ks

ZF max, I'm new here so I'm really not looking to argue with any one. as a buisiness owner I deal with and pay legal fees every year. Simply put the warranty is VERY clear. That language is put their for a reason. I really dont think most of us have much to worry about, but it honestly does rub my rubarb the wrong way to see good hard working people intentionally miss lead by corporations to sell their products. If you have a good product like the guys here with the fuel filters they will pretty much sell them selves. If you want to believe that ANY oem is going to put in writeing they will honor a warranty after you have modified the vehicle irrespective of the modifications, well, we certainly are not on the same page. What I put up here is directly from the 2004 Warranty book. Page 6 under Damage Due to accident misuse or alteration. You might also want to read page 12 to clearify your stance. See ORIGIONAL EQUIPMENT ALTERATIONS. VERY plain, VERY clear, Totally self explanatory. The point is NOT your interpretation or mine. It is that of GM's attorneys that is the viable opinion here. Let me get this straight, You think you will sue them and they will just be so weak in the knees that they will just fork over what ever your demands are ? oooookee do key. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif now if you dont mind telling me what page you are reading your info from in the warranty book..........

No, the opposite is that the fuel system IS covered, and it says that VERY clearly http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Y'all want to pretend it doesn't say "damage caused as the result of", hey, knock yourselves out. No skin off my nose. Course, don't get your panties in a bunch when I point out that it DOES say that. VERY clearly!

Whether they'd actually try to make the argument that a supplemental pre-oem filter caused the damage, and how far they'd be willing to take that, that's a separate issue. I think it's pointless to argue that point because it's all speculation. It's like arguing religion, no one knows but everyone's sure they do.

But what it says in the warranty book is clear, and you look really silly trying to claim it says something else http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

My opinion,


The warranty does say that (damage or failure resulting from modification or alteration) is not covered. The good thing would be that if a person has trouble and it took 10 yrs to win, this time would then be added on to warranty for the time it was out of service, and attorney fees paid. The final descison would be made by a judge or jury. Another thing everyone should search around , Racor is comoing out with a PRE OEM system stated to be in the next 6-8 weeks, and GM has been heading up this designe operation and will be an GM approved. The system was stated as cutting the fuel lines to put in place this system. I guess its every ones opionion what to do, I have in writting that by adding a second fuel filter would not void my warranty as long as its PRE OEM, I guess a good service mannager.I love my truck but for the money I dont think people should have to be worrying about these type of problems, It goes to show the days we are living in with what I call (through away vehicles). That is to say after warranty runs out by a new one, wish I had my old 283s back I could fix them forever. Good luck to everyone.


David

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifNo the silly look comes when you are writeing a fat chack to your barrister. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif It really seems like you are the only one with " your panties in a bunch " http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif but if that works for you....great. It simply wont due to break one part of a sentence off for you to alter the intent of the document. I will have my pre OEM filter in on wednsday. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Directly from the owners manual IN ITS ENTIRETY


ORIGIONAL EQUIPMENT ALTERATIONS


This warranty does NOT cover ANY damage or failure resulting from modification or alteration to the vehicles origional equipment as manufactured or assembled by GM. Examples of the types of alterations that would NOT be covered include the installation of ANY NON-GM PARTS, ACCESSORIES, and materials, or the cutting, welding, or dissconnecting of the vehicles ORIGIONAL equipment and parts.


Its very clear to me that if sued this is the plat form ANY OEM will stand on. The key here as with any product is to find a competent Dealership with Top quality techs that have a intimate working knowledge of the products they sell and service. Some dealers and techs who are on top of their game are well apprised of the pulse of Duramax owners. This is well manifested in the fact that some GM service managers are offering to install and stand behind the pre-oem filters. Best Wishes.

There are a lot of dealers out there installing and servicing the aftermarket goodies we are talking about here.

It's all in the dealership. It pays to shop dealerships if you have the luxury.

Personally I didn't think twice about putting my filter in... I'm thinking about injector life. If there is and injector issue... what's GM doing for us? Denying warranty? Is that it? Anything else... like a fix?

Well, like I said, whether or not they'd deny coverage, and whether or not they'd try to claim that an upstream supplemental filter caused the damage, and how far they'd be willing to go with that argument, those are all open issues. You're convinced they'd make that argument and fight it all the way. But you're just speculating, you don't really know.

I actually had an experience once in a somewhat similar deal on a Ford Diesel truck, several years back. Warranty coverage was denied because it was past it's warranty period, even though it was a recurring issue that happened twice under warranty and they had since come out with a TSB and a kit to fix it. I fought it and won and they fixed my truck. It wasn't nearly as hard to win as some of y'all are making it out to be. You've got several avenues you can pursue. The dealer was actually anxious to avoid litigation, it never made it that far.

Not that I pretend, as some do, to know exactly how this issue would turn out, but I'm certainly not afraid of it. After all, the precise wording of the warranty would be on my side this time, it wasn't last time.

I dont think I have professed to know the out come of anything..the entire conversation is speculative at best. Again in the example you give the dealer would NOT be the one you would litigate against. Their are certainly several avenues possible. That is pretty much always the case. How cost effective it will be for you as a individual is the unknown. In some cases the OEM simply offers a buy back. In others they take the hard line. Hoot, I think I missed your point. Surely you realize that not every one can afford to take the risk of voiding their warranty. Some of us live in areas where their are nothing but poor dealers. I think the only point that is being made is we each have to decide for our selves what is a acceptable risk. In short, we each need to think about the consequences of our actions. That is where I began on this topic in reference to corporations that like to miss lead consumers to believe that they will be able to easily and cost effictively fight a OEM on a denied warranty. Those of us with experience actually know better. I dont think I could add much more to the topic than that. Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

"Again in the example you give the dealer would NOT be the one you would litigate against."

The dealer is the manufacturer's agent and you most certainly can name them in any action you might take.

"In others they take the hard line."

What I found is that it was very easy for them to initially just answer "no", but when things started getting serious, they reconsidered their answer because they knew they had an indefensible position.

The same scenario could easily play out in this situation. Sure, they might initially deny coverage, after all, 99% of the people in the world don't have the intestinal fortitude to fight it. But to claim that additional filtration placed upstream from the factory filter caused an injector failure is awfully shaky ground to stand on. How far they'd be willing to go on that argument is a whole separate issue. If it's anything like my experience with Ford, they won't want to make that argument in a courtroom.

I can see you like to play with words. Yes you would name the dealer as a agent successor or assign of GM. So what. The dealer has no stake at that point. The resolution is up to the OEM. Splitting very fine hairs. In fact it only takes a few moments of time to read back through nearly every post you have placed on this forum. They all have one thing in common. You like to dissagree with every topic or post something negative in relation to the topic at hand. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

My my, you're a sensitive one, aren't you?

People who post BS and then get all bent out of shape when someone corrects it probably shouldn't participate on boards like this http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

wheew, I thought my point might fly over your head. After all trolls are known to dwell in low lying places http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gifEdited by: BlueMaxxxx

I don't think anybody here has anything to personally benefit from either way this goes.

Installing any aftermarket filter is risky, warranty-wise no doubt.

It's a personal choice.

Hoot, I agree completely. I am hopeing to see what eric might be able to come up with for a spin on replacement. It will also be interesting to see what comes about in the near future with the rumor mill churning about the GM approved pre-oem Racor.

Is there any documentation on this "Pre-OEM Filter" GM is contemplating? Or, is this a rumor, grapevine, a magazine article, or what? Inquiring minds want to know. BTW, I have been following these threads because I am thinking about an auxillary filter system, but you guys have scared the crap outta me. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif


JP

Is there any documentation on this "Pre-OEM Filter" GM is contemplating? Or, is this a rumor, grapevine, a magazine article, or what? Inquiring minds want to know. BTW, I have been following these threads because I am thinking about an auxillary filter system, but you guys have scared the crap outta me. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif


JP

Scared you? You already altered the intake system and exhaust system.

WARRANTY DENIED

OK.... now that that's settled.... Time for Comp Juice and a tranny tweek http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

ROTFLMAO http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif Time for more Mods. Just smoke em in reverse one time. That should get both barrels slammed shut againhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif After all you dont want to get any thing on that interior http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif BTW, I shot Racor a email about the fuel filter. It will be interesting to see if I get a response.

Hoot,


Well maybe I'm not scared....maybe what I was feeling was excitement and childlike exuberance.....'cause I already bought the banks pyrometer, boost gauges, wastegate & otto mind...I guess in for a penny, in for a pound. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


JP

exuberance or adrenaline ? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I'm thinking Quad

The racor aux filter from GM is fact. We should be seeing them soon and I doubt them to be much more then a 660R122 kit, with the addition of a WIF sensor.


Eric

Eric,


Sounds like an official aux filter blessing from GM. Will the Racor unit be sold/installed only at GM dealers?

I know Eric will be installing mine http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif I was supposed to get over there this morning for a Racor install but I've been down for the count for about five days with a bug. With Deer season just around the Corner I wont be able to get back over to GR untill the begginning of December. Hopefully they will have the new set up by then. The water sensor sounds like a good thing. Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

If anyone wants to add a water sensor to the Racor they now have its easy. Just install it in the filter and hook it directly up to the OE system. I had check this out a year ago.

Greg

The racor aux filter from GM is fact. We should be seeing them soon and I doubt them to be much more then a 660R122 kit, with the addition of a WIF sensor.


Eric

Been there...... DONE THAT! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Hello Eric

Spoke to my dealer.. YES HE will install it and not Voild
any thing to do with the fuel system YEShttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif
NO more BS from the dealer yeshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif...Eric Please send me the 1st ones as soon as you know.. Please find out if there coming with the fuel heater.. Love it.. No more BS
from any dealer now.. GM Will Installed it for me.. CUT AND DRY

From steve
Fleet Ownerhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Edited by: smartfix

Does this mean that this "new" filter setup HAS to be installed by "qualified" GM personal in order to NOT void warranty?


cadman_ks

RUT Roh. What does "qualified" Mean ?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

RUT Roh. What does "qualified" Mean ?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


No slam on anyone, just meaning dealer install ONLY. ALL GM dealers would technically be "qualified". They would be the ONLY ones that we be "allowed" to make this installation, NOT we as individuals...


cadman_ks

I would think that would have to be the case to maintain the integrity of the warranty but that all goes back around to comfort level and the quality of your dealer. I mean weather or not you are comfortable takeing the risk of voiding your warranty or arguing with some knuckle head Vs showing a GM invoice. I read that this install needs to have the lines cut so for that means a dealer install. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

After reading all the posts about Fuel contamination and Injector failures, I opted to have the Nictane set-up installed, but was worried about just this issue, Voiding the Warranty. So I contacted my local Dealership that has done all the work on my previous Chevy 01 and now my GMC 0/3. They said no problem, they installed it, in fact the service manager mentioned it was a first class set-up, and more then likely he is putting one in his. He's concerned about this issue also.


I think if you encounter Dealerships that huff and puff about Secondary Filtering keep looking, find one where the Service Managers are fully informed on these drivetrains and better yet also owns one. Although a pricier install, I have no complaints, only praise for this dealership (William L Morris, Simi Valley) and Dan (Service Manager) has been outstanding, they have been there when I needed them, especially getting the gremlins out of my 01.


This Secondary Filter is the Best upgrade I have done, Trucks runs smoother, and I can sleep better now. Thanks Nick!

hello all

Here is our point on this OEM filter.. I;m going to have
GM install it.. Reasons If i'm traveling and break down and
get to a dealer that tells me thats not a GM setup.. 1st
i have the paper work that shows it came from GM..2nd and
most impt GM installed it..

NOTES:::::::::::: Spoke to our zone Rep today about this..
steve if you have our GM shop do the install and buy it from GM parts dept.. You will not have to worry about anything
on your fuel system.. I would have to be a real Dum A** Not
to let them do the whole job.. Some of you must like to Gamble< Noting Personal> I can't with a Fleet of 200 now
and 100 more on order.. OEM ONLY

From steve
Fleet ownerEdited by: smartfix

As others have said over and over, even going to a GM shop doesn't guarantee competent work will occur. Find the best shop and/or tech and don't look back. Racor will provide installation instructions and if injector problems occur down the road: 1) GM can eyeball the work to see the install was completed per instructions and 2) GM is approving this fix given known injector reliability issues.


The only bad bet is to leave the fuel filtering system as it was originally designed.

One of the hopeful outcomes of all of this will be that for us that have added other filters, they may be more sympathetic about fuel system problems in the future. They are basically admitting that there are issues.


Jess

Thats a very good point. At least they are addressing the issue instead of constant buy backs like Ford. I have talked to two different guys in person who have had buy backs on a Ford Diesel in the last week. It would be nice if they came right from the factory for the $$$ but at least their is a solution. I cant imagine that a dealer install will cost much on one of theese. It seems good for Duramax owners all the way around. Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

My feeling on this is I am not waiting for GM to address this issue, after 100,000 I am on my own, so I'm acting now. In the World of Modifications, Secondary Filtering if installed correctly, can only benefit GM from future Injector replacements, and they don't have to pay a dime for it, even though these trucks should roll off the line with it, ready for Heavy-Duty service.


Maybe I am lucky, but the dealer I use, this is a Non-issue. Its my understanding the new PSD 6.0 comes with 2 fuel filters already, I think Ford/Navistar is having alot of other issues with this introduction, but their Fuel filtering seems to be pretty decent.

I bet I can get 12 people in a jury of my peers to believe that I put on 2 additional filters (one pre and one post, just to stop the argument) to improve the life expectancy of my vehicle. I further believe that the fuel test I have will prove my alteration did not contribute to any fuel system's issue and FINALLY I can point out that my filters were added AFTER my injector cup seals failed and then in a later and separate event, injectors failed. My 2 filters were added, in fact, as a result of some lousy GM engineering defects that I have data and can prove existed for my specific vehicle. You can also point to the fact the OEM filter manufacture is making an additional unit. Hard for GM to say yours is bad because it cut a line when theirs does too. You can point out your 2 micron element is as good as their "additional" 2 micron element. This is far from a cut an dried case for either side since every judge, jury and lawyer is different.


Now, that being said and worth about the memory it takes up on the server, I don't think I'll have to find out because I have talked to my dealer in advance, I have a much more robust system now, that will out last the OEM system 10 times over, it will protect my truck from the crude (pun intended) in the tank and I trust my work more than all of the monkeys in my shop combined. My truck and I have tought them more about the DMAX and Allison then they want to admit. Just ask Eric, since he has had to save my truck from needless work before due to the lack of training and understanding.


Just as with which filter to install, to install or not is a personal choice. If you are going to trade at 99,999 miles, leave it alone. If you want to be driving it in 2069 with 300,000 miles, add the filters, JMHO. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I think that might be so but can you convince a attornety to file the case, do reasearch, depositions and the trail itself for under 15k or about 3x the cost of the repair ? You can win the battle and loose the war. Plus you have failed to prove that you are "qualified" or that you were not negligent in introduceing contaminents into your system and further still that you did not breach the contract. Its simply a matter of perspective. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

What??? I thought you said "Your warranty is VERY clear, mess with the system = Void the warranty."??? Now you're saying maybe they might have to honor the warranty anyway??? Which is it?

Hello all

This is going to be my last words on this ..My lawyer was reading some of this.. He also read the GM book.. And spoke
to Gm main office.. The Bottom line in this Case With no
if's and Buts.. They can Voild your Fuel Warranty.. They
have a fleet of in house lawyers that will fight each case
that comes in.. Unless you have millons to fight back.. GM
will when the case..

It's very Clear you play YOU Will pay.. And Cutting open
the Fuel lines and adding a lift pump WILL VOLD your fuel
Warranty.. Thats a open and closed case..

Your Trucks didn't come with the lift pump.. and then you
Cut your lines.. Our in house lawyer did a lot of work on this .. We have learned a lot.. :::YOU PLAY YOU COULD PAY:: Thats the bottom line .. Again nothing personal here.. Just lots of people don't understand ..This is Cut
and Dry..

Thanks all
Fleet OwnerEdited by: smartfix

What I said is very clear. Just as clear as the warranty itself. Even if you could win ( BIG IF) its totally moot as it will cost you far more than the repair. Very simple, Very clear. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Hello all

This is going to be my last words on this ..My lawyer was reading some of this.. He also read the GM book.. And spoke
to Gm main office.. The Bottom line in this Case With no
if's and Buts.. They can Voild your Fuel Warranty.. They
have a fleet of in house lawyers that will fight each case
that comes in.. Unless you have millons to fight back.. GM
will when the case..

It's very Clear you play YOU Will pay.. And Cutting open
the Fuel lines and adding a lift pump WILL VOLD your fuel
Warranty.. Thats a open and closed case..

Your Trucks didn't come with the lift pump.. and then you
Cut your lines.. Our in house lawyer did a lot work on this .. We have learned a lot.. :::YOU PLAY YOU COULD PAY:: Thats the bottom line .. Again nothing personal here.. Just lots of people don't understand ..This is Cut
and Dry..

Thanks all
Fleet Owner


Last we heard you already made your opinion before but now you had "your" lawyer look at this topic, read "the GM book", and speak to "the GM office." Guess what, ask ten lawyers and you'll get ten different answers.


It's cut and dry alright, you're cracking me up. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I think there has to be some middle ground here, we are not talking about a performance box, but something that should be on these trucks to begin with. Where I think people need to be careful is installation, where its installed, the lift pump sounds like it could be made into a issue also.


If someone installs a Secondary Filter then immediatly has Injector issues GM could look at the installation as the problem, But I would think the OEM filter would trap anything introduced. But 10,000 miles down the road, I don't see how GM could assume it would be because of better filtering ,that logic escapes me.


Until I hear from someone that has had a Warranty denied based on the fact they tried to clean up their fuel, I did what GM should have already done, provide a Filtering system that is capable of protecting these Engines from the crappy fuel we have here in the Stateshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

IIRC the supplemental Racor/GM unit unit has an integrated pump so I wouldn't think a lift pump would be an issue.

So it would be OK to prefilter the fuel coming out of a storage tank but if you prefilter it onboard you void the warranty? That sounds stupid.

I think more than anything the concern is people that don't keep the components clean during the install or using components that are untested and or incompatible. You really can't blame them. The scary part is if you do have injector failure and you have an additional filter... they could blame it on the system change and void the warranty.

Personally, I don't care. I'm filtering.
Edited by: hoot

... you have failed to prove that you are "qualified" or that you were not negligent in introduceing contaminents into your system.....


Actually, I can prove I did not introduce contaminents, as I have fuel tests taken post install, downstream of the injectors. I also have detailed installation pictures that will show I was very careful not to get crap in my truck, which is more than I can say for GM. My injectors failed after they were in my system, not me. I can also make a darn good case at "proving" I am qualifed to do this with my profession and education. I got a better job than McDonalds and more than a GED before I jumped into this. I thought I made it quite clear for MY PERSONAL ONLY APPLIES TO ME case, I have a better than average chance. Nothing is cut and dried and that Included GM winning every time. I thought I also made it clear that I don't expect to ever need to prove anyrthing because I have fixed most of the problems myself, using my own money, designs and time.


I second Hoot's statement, I'm filtering. It's the right thing to do.


Note: I do not believe I have a 100% chance of winning a court battle if it came to it. I don't believe anyone "HAS" to add additional filteration. I think EVERYONE should IF they want to keep there truck long term. Maybe I'll get lucky and maybe I won't, but I can say the cleaner fuel makes my truck run better and my injector balances got better after adding the filters and lift pump.


To each his own said the old man when he kissed the cow.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gifEdited by: chuntag95

Actually Photos wont necessarilly prove squat unlesss you are a certified Mechanic working in a GM AUTHORIZED garage. Feel free to spend 3x as much in legal fees as the repair. Its your money. As far as the fuel filteration I agree to a extent but I do think 2 microns up front is Bass ackwards, but a lot better than nothing. You will see in my prior posts that I intend to use extra filteration as well. Some how I am left to wonder the intelligence of saveing $120 in labor to risk a $5,000 repair or 15k ++++ In legal fees. Its always those who have never written a single check to a law firm that know the most. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif To each his own http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

How long can this horse be beaten ?!? I mean enough already ! Take it to the dealer. Worry about Gm's lawyers. Just give it a rest ! On a side note...I work with lawyers all the time..Never seen any of them agree on any issue, nor did I ever think most of them could find their own ass with both hands. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif

Now theirs a statement I can certainly agree with. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I dont think it was any ones intent to suggest that others are wrong for their choices or thoughts on the subject. A couple of guys here with hands on buisiness law experience were simply trying to share "real world" experience to hopefully save some from simply being miss lead. I think the issue of filteration is minutia compared to a lot of the mods many are running and hopefully in the end extra fuel filteration is in every ones best interest but it is at this time a calculated risk. Sadly. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

From what I read there was more than sharing business experience, and instead was claiming to have all knowledge and common sense to this matter and anyone thinking/doing otherwise is " a real Dum A**", to use a quote. Quotes like that are not helpful to this truck community working together to solve this problem. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

RUT Roh. What does "qualified" Mean ?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ouch.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


No slam on anyone, just meaning dealer install ONLY. ALL GM dealers would technically be "qualified". They would be the ONLY ones that we be "allowed" to make this installation, NOT we as individuals...


cadman_ks








That would mean if you take that position that the dealer would have to do ALL of the maintenance on the trucks, and we know that ain't so.


Jess

Ray, The only "DA" take from my perspective is thinking GM will get weak in the knees and wet their panties if we hire attorneys to represent us. Other than that I see it strictly as a personal choice. I certainly can get my drawers in a wad and I personally have spent far more in litigation on a few issues than I recovered just to prove a point. In hind sight financially it was not the best descision. We all have our own value systems and beliefs. I would not think another a "DA" for chooseing litigation. I sincerely hope it does not come down to that for any one here. Again the secondary filteration is a very mild Mod and one I will opt for. However I will pay the small labor fee to protect my investment. With all due respect, Attorneys dont do sh#$ (s@#$) For our community either other than take our cash for more toys. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

I agree BlueMaxxxx, it's definitely a personal choice. Those that only care about the 100,000 mile warranty may make a different decision than those that (I'm guessing) are the majority that invested in a diesel for the long haul.


I think I hear the battle cry for tort reform.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif[/img]


Now that I will agree with 100% !!!!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

I am currently setting appointments for the installs. If I get enough response, Ican start in Mi, head east, down the coast, across the south and back up the west coast and across canada...

Eric, If your gonna do house calls you can start right here in Mi http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Sorry I had to cancel my install date. Still sicker than a Dog but Did manage to spend 4 hours under the truck today. At 2k Miles I filled up with Delvac 1, No more "Tick" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Rear axle only had 2 quarts of oil in it http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif But it took 4.10 to re fill. The Front axle fluid looked like babby poo doo when I drained it. Also a new Spin on allison filter. I gota find a pump of some sort so I can drain the 4x4 and refill with TranSynd. Greased the front end except the top of the steering ( Pitman arm ??) How the heck do you get those two fittings greased ??? Hope to see you in early December. Should have 5k on the Beast by then. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

I am currently setting appointments for the installs. If I get enough response, Ican start in Mi, head east, down the coast, across the south and back up the west coast and across canada...





http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

When will the Racorr units hit the streets Eric?


Jess

I've read all the postings on the fuel filters for weeks and have finally made up my mind on what I'd like to do. The only problem is finding the setup.


Everyone has beat to death the pre/post argument, cutting the fuel lines, putting in a pre 2 micron filter even though the OEM is a 7 micron. On and on and on.... All good reading, all good comments. Bottom line is we're trying to make our trucks last problem free until we're ready to replace it.


Anyway...Here's what I'd like to do. I want a dual head unit with a 7 micron and a 2 micron filter. It should also have a water seperator. I don't care about the OEM filter. If I could put a dummy filter in place of it I would. Seeing how I can't it's just there. It will add additional filtration but bottom line is it's just there. I'm not depending on it for anything. My workhorse is the dual head unit.


Now, does anyone have any ideas on where to purchase such a setup or will I be installing two single head units?


The setup will consist mounting it on the rail and connecting it just like the Nicktane is installed.


Dale

When will the Racorr units hit the streets Eric?


Jess


I dont know for sure, but you can bet as soon as I find out, all of you will


Eric