Can these trucks even be compared?

The chevy 6.0 and Hemi are 3/4 ton trucks. The Nissan Titan (or so the dealer told me) can pull as much as any of the 3/4 ton's of the big 3...

Truck's are all crewcabs and need to be able to pull a 7000lb travel trailer efficiently..

Your input and thoughts are appreciated as always..
Thanks..

If you plan to tow there is no replacement for low and mid range torque. The 5.7 Hemi is a fairly powerfull engine but it needs to be wound up to make its best torque and same with Nissan. The 6.0 is not perfect but it is a lot stronger at lower RPM's that the other two trucks you mentioned and you need that to better move a trailer that is heavy.

The 6.0 specs say that it produces 300hp@4400rpm and 360tq@4000rpm's...

The Titan does 305HP @ 4900 rpms and 379 torque @ 3600rpm's...

The Hemi makes 345 hp @ 5400 rpms and 375'lb's of torque @ 4200rpm...

It appears that with the exception of the Hemi's need for higher rpms for its max HP, all other areas are fairly close...

Man, this truck selection process can get difficult.

They will all be GAS GUZZLERS.

The 6.0 specs say that it produces 300hp@4400rpm and 360tq@4000rpm's...

The Titan does 305HP @ 4900 rpms and 379 torque @ 3600rpm's...

The Hemi makes 345 hp @ 5400 rpms and 375'lb's of torque @ 4200rpm...

It appears that with the exception of the Hemi's need for higher rpms for its max HP, all other areas are fairly close...

Man, this truck selection process can get difficult.


Drive them all and feel the torque as specs do not always accurately reflect how they run and the 6.0 is pretty strong above 2000 RPM and has a flat torque curve that you can feel driving it.

I would get the 8.1 chevy. Fuel mileage comparable to 6 liter, more power.

They will all be GAS GUZZLERS.

It depends on haw you define a gas guzzler and a wallet guzzler. I have gotten 10 to 12mpg towing with gassers with proper gearing and some do less but I also have a friend that has a 2001 Ford Power stroke 2WD crew cab dualie and he pulls a 28 foot cargo trailer every weekend doing computer shows in several states and he is upset with his fuel mileage. Running 75 and 80 mph at times late at night he averages around 7 MPG or so and has gotten as low as 6 and he has some friends doing the circuit with gasser pulling the same type of load at speed doing the same or better MPG wise and some of them, the ones with big blocks, can walk off and leave him above 80 with a load too.

I've drove all of them but the Titan. The 6.0 did seem like it had more than enough power, but from what i've been hearing, many folks seem dissapointed with them.
Today I retest a 2003 2500 quadcab 4x2 Hemi, A 2000 Ford crewcab PSD (4x4 and a 2x4) and a 2000 Dodge quadcab diesel 4x2...

Does anyone have any links to some sites that maybe has put the 1st mentioned trucks together in a test??
I read one that gave the the Titan the 2004 tow vehicle of the year award. However, they put it up against the new F150 and the Silverado 1500 w/the 5.3lt engine. All were 4x4 and all were crew cabs except the Chevy, which was an extended cab...

If you get a 6.0 with 4.10 gears and keep stock tire sizes on it, it will pull 7000lbs with little effort. It is a strong motor. Most of those that complain about a 6.0's power, have tall gears or they put oversized tires on truck without re-gearing it and cut towing power down. If you were going to be much over 8000lbs or so regularly in towed weight and or in hilly areas, you might consider a 8.1 also.

I should add that there has been some piston slap issues in past 6.0's but I have little doubt that GM has quitely fixed this problem in the newest ones. Edited by: snoman

There is no way I would buy a gasoline truck. I have owned 11 gas powered cars in the past. That was fine. When I made the decision to buy a truck I tested all of the gasoline fired trucks. I did not at all like the fit and finish of the Nissan (I owned a 280 Z years ago and never bot another Nissan). For truck of the year it felt small and, as with the new Z car I saw at the car show, the fit and finish sucked. It has a motor and that is fine.

I am in the oil business.

I purchased a diesel fired truck because there is a reason 50% of all licensed drivers in the United Kingdom drive diesel; over time it is a cheaper fuel and will remain so AND more importantly the technology involved has vastly improved (go to Mercedes website; you will find they make a 4 door small sedan in both gas and diesel; the diesel outperforms it). As you approach winter the fuel cost of diesel will surpass gasoline but over the course of a 10 yr period, you will save big bucks and compromise ZERO in performance against a Titan, Hemi or whatever (my truck will kick a hemi's hind period full stop).

I'd take a strong look at that Titan.....it makes more peak power and more torque at a lower rpm than the 6.0L. I would only question its trailering weight....I can't seem to find any information about that on Nissan's website.


Remember.....it does only cost roughly $31k.

I purchased a diesel fired truck because there is a reason 50% of all licensed drivers in the United Kingdom drive diesel

And the real reason is fuel prices and marketing. They do not cost as much extra and fuel there is about $4.00/gal and the payback is a lot quicker than at $2/gal or less and high option fees. Fuel has alway been expensive in UK.

I had a chance to look at the Titan and the interior looks excellent. I did not drive it though. If I were you, I would think about the 8.1 over the 6.0. I was shooting the breeze one day with my dealer, and he showed me a 6.0L truck that he had just sold. He said he tried to talk the guy into a 8.1, but was unsuccessful. He said there is hardly any difference in price between the two and gas mileage is about the same.-JMO

A Chevy 2500 with the Dmax/Allison combo will not only give you all the power you will need, but give you better fuel mileage towing and solo. The price might be a bit steep up front, but you won't be disappointed, especially if you plan on keeping the truck for a long period of time.


JP

And the real reason is fuel prices and marketing. They do not cost as much extra and fuel there is about $4.00/gal and the payback is a lot quicker than at $2/gal or less and high option fees. Fuel has alway been expensive in UK. [/QUOTE]





Snoman: If you think that fuel prices ain't going higher here over the next 10 years think again; hard. Absolute price will indeed go higher for several reasons none of which I have enough space here to elaborate upon but bank on it. The payback period for the $6k added price for the diesel motor/tranny setup is in fact quicker in the UK (and Japan, and China, and India, ....) but the same will be true here in the states before you know what hit you. Making gasoline will ALWAYS be FAR MORE EXPENSIVE than making diesel (or Jet).


This was one of the main reaons I purchased the diesel because we in that line of business are seeing it happen worldwide.


Do some research into Non-U.S. oil demand and you will come to the same conclusion; there is no doubt whatsoever.

1st. Buy American! The Nissan may be a nice truck and it may be built here (Unlike the Dodge), But the profits go oversees!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


2nd. Take a hard look at the diesels. The mileage difference and ease of towing with them more than outways the cost IMO. All the diesels get better mileage than the 6.0L gas.


3rd. The Nissan ratings are Optomistic at best. The big three have a much bigger safety margin built into them. Look at the brakes, trans, frame, etc. and it should become pretty clear what you want to tow with.

Two things to consider:


peak torque/hp are only useable when you have your rpm's at the peak. The flatter/higher the whole torque curve allows you to have sufficient power at a variety of speeds.


A half ton nissan could have a 1000 hp 1000 lb/ft engine but its GVWR is pretty much maxed at 7000 (look up the real numbers) and it is because half ton pickups are not designed for more than that. 7K seems like a lot to pull behind a halffer regularly. If you start with any 3/4 ton, a 7000 trailer is in the middle of its rating range and will follow you with ease. (and what happens when your wife decides to get that 12K fifth wheel?)


It is a lot easier to add a little power to your engine than increase your GVWR.

1st. Buy American! The Nissan may be a nice truck and it may be built here (Unlike the Dodge), But the profits go oversees!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


2nd. Take a hard look at the diesels. The mileage difference and ease of towing with them more than outways the cost IMO. All the diesels get better mileage than the 6.0L gas.


3rd. The Nissan ratings are Optomistic at best. The big three have a much bigger safety margin built into them. Look at the brakes, trans, frame, etc. and it should become pretty clear what you want to tow with.





I agree with you on everything except 1. GM is not 100% built in america. None of the other "American Made" companies are either. Most of their parts come from Mexico and overseas. You can thank the idiot that signed NAFTA for that.

dmaxfan.....what happens when US companies cannot compete with price? They are moved out of the market "buy' demand. What happens when the stock value goes down....everything. Where do investors put their money...... in good stock. You cannot have good stock in an unballanced economy, can you? If the outsiders can produce "X" at "Y" price ...we should be able to do that as well. If people would learn that the damm lawyers are a detrement to our society in general we woould be better off. Look at our factory regulations vs. China's or Mexico's........... night and day. What about emmissions.......who do you think is more strengent...Mexico or the US? I know that the jobs are leaving...but what can you do? We are a market driven economy.......price is king. I doubt that 1 out of 500 people give a rats a$$ where it's made when it comes too price. We have become mostly a self indulgent people. The pride we once had is almost forgotten.


Perhaps our large production companies would be better matched to oversea's competetion if we dropped the 401K plans, healthcare benifits, vaction time, working conditions, paper work, minimum wage, child labor laws, stupid(you know what I mean) lawsuits and "TAXES"...


FUBARB was created by who? Made a pile ....... and now their stepping in it?
<H3>
<CENTER>John Edwards on Free Trade : Feb 26, 2004
Renegotiate NAFTA rather than cancel it </H3>


</CENTER>EDWARDS [to Sharpton]: The Chile trade agreement and the Singapore agreement have very strong enforcement mechanisms. I would use the Free Trade of the Americas agreement as a vehicle for renegotiating NAFTA.


SHARPTON: I want to cancel it.


EDWARDS: I think we do need to renegotiate it. The problem with NAFTA is these side agreements don't work. You have to put these labor/environmental protections in the text of the agreement.


Q: Will that be enough?


SHARPTON: No, I don't think so. This cost jobs for Americans. And it is unequivocal evidence that it costs Americans jobs. People were unemployed. It also went below labor and human rights standards abroad. We need to cancel NAFTA unequivocally. We need to have standards that we would not deal with nations that would put laborers in those kinds of situations. We cannot protect American corporations and call that patriotic and not protect American workers and call that protections.





Sorry about that......... I got's issues. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Broken Heart.gif

Easy guys, didn't mean to start a war with the 'BUY AMERICAN'. Personally, I always will.


dmaxfan, I never said it was 100% American. I said the profits go overseas. Like Burner said 'what happens when US companies cannot compete with price? They are moved out of the market "buy' demand. What happens when the stock value goes down....everything. Where do investors put their money...... in good stock. You cannot have good stock in an unballanced economy, can you?'.


I admit that I myself look for the cheap items at times. But all my large purchases are American goods 'IF' available. Unfortunately, sometimes they're not. If the profits stay here then US companies are able to compete. As long as they can compete it takes a bigger reason to leave the US and take the jobs with them.


Just my 2 cents.

Burner, I know what you stated and I agree. There is alot of people actually think that it is 100% american.


Terrain twister,


Thats cool, I am not trying to start a pissing contest or any thing, I was just explaining in case you or anyone else did not know.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Edited by: dmaxfan

I agree with you on everything except 1. GM is not 100% built in america. None of the other "American Made" companies are either. Most of their parts come from Mexico and overseas. You can thank the idiot that signed NAFTA for that.

NAFTA may have made somethings easier to do but they have been outsourcing more and more for years to limit car price increases. Somehow we must compete in the global marketplace because if we do not we will on day fail. How to best do it is the 50 million dollar question though. Edited by: snoman

1st. Buy American! The Nissan may be a nice truck and it may be built here (Unlike the Dodge), But the profits go oversees!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif


2nd. Take a hard look at the diesels. The mileage difference and ease of towing with them more than outways the cost IMO. All the diesels get better mileage than the 6.0L gas.


3rd. The Nissan ratings are Optomistic at best. The big three have a much bigger safety margin built into them. Look at the brakes, trans, frame, etc. and it should become pretty clear what you want to tow with.
You say buy American then mention the big three as in GM Ford & Chrysler. Chrysler is not an American company anymore so it may be the big two.

Q: I know that the jobs are leaving...but what can you do?


A: We cannot protect American corporations and call that patriotic and not protect American workers and call that protectionist.


You answered you're own question. Luke

Sorry for thread hijacking, but I have issues too!Edited by: luke warm

Point is the same.


(1) I would buy a GM truck before the Nissan for multitude of reasons but quality/performance more than others. I would not take a Ford for free.


(2) Diesel is the short term fuel of the future.


(3) GM's products are not fully manufactured/assembled in the U.S. Nissan's products are not fully manufactured/assembled in Japan.


(4) GM is a U.S. company. Nissan is not a U.S. company.


(5) Edwards, Clinton, Sharpton, and Kerry are all delusional and have no experience in business much less "negotiating" trade agreements.

Point is the same.


(5) Edwards, Clinton, Sharpton, and Kerry are all delusional and have no experience in business much less "negotiating" trade agreements.











If that's not hitting the nail on the head......... I don't know what is.

[QUOTE=fuel007one]


(5) Edwards, Clinton, Sharpton, and Kerry are all delusional and have no experience in business much less "negotiating" trade agreements.


A lot more than Bush and Cheney. Their ONLY concern is corperate profits and you are dreaming if believe they give a rats butt about the working class other than to creat low paying jobs to pay the taxes for the rich folks.

eeeeerrrrrrrrrEdited by: Burner

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gifSorry for what I started. Everyone a polititian is a politician regardless of political race or who is involved. Would you be honest if you were in there? I probably wouldn't because I am a human being just like anyone else.-That being said, let's go back to this forum. I would be at somewhat a draw between Chevy and Nissan. The Chevy frame will hold up better-IMO than the Nissan because it is 3/4 ton. I really have not looked at the frames on the Titan. But I love the looks and features of it. Someone told me that it has Diff. lock for the 4x4 too. I dunno. It all comes down to what the consumer is looking for.

Didn't start the political thing, just tried to end it. Anyhow, I would go with the diesel.





Out.

Didn't start the political thing, just tried to end it. Anyhow, I would go with the diesel.





Out.

And up the price at least by about 8 to 10 grand too bigger/heavier truck model(costs more) and diesel option too. Not a very cost effective solution. Big upgrade over a Titan or 1/2 ton Hemi and insurance would be higher too.

All I gotta say is that the 6.0L is a pig when it comes to fuel economy. Then again, when a person buys a truck of any type, we all don't think we are getting into the green club by buying one.

That said the comment about the diesel vs. the 6.0L is only half true IMHO. Yes diesel fuel costs less (currently), but before this gas price nightmare, it was either simialr or more expensive depending on where you were in the country. Currently, diesel is about .40 less expensive on avg at today's prices. Which is about $14 less expensive per fillup. This is based on 93 octane gas....if you use midgrade or basegrade, the cost difference gets even smaller.

Let's now talk oil changes. 6 quarts for the 6.0L and if I recall, the Duramax is in the teens somewhere? If not, it is in the double digit range. Cost to change my synthetic oil and filter on the 6.0L is about $17 using a UPF AC Delco filter. The Duramax is estimate at about $30 (and frankly that seems a bit low to me using synthetic as well).

Now for the MPG comps. Our 6.0 gets 13mpg around town and 18mpg on the highway (not towing). I have not towed with our 6.0L yet as I am still breaking it in. However, several folks and family members I know that tow between 5800 and 8000lbs all have reported 11-13+mpg towing with the 6.0 and 3.73s and 4.10s. I don't beat the tar out of it and it could be why I get 18 hwy. I have 2 buddies that have Duramax engines in their pickups. One has a 2003 (LB7) and the other a 2004 (LLY). The two are totally different beasts. The LB7, though it has had lots of injector issues and they are burried in the engine making it a PITA it get to, does surpass the 6.0L by a significant margin when it comes to MPG. The LLY however, is far less than that of the LB7. There are several reasons for this, but I'll spare you the long list.

The diesel has it hands down when it comes to torque at low RPMs, however, the upgrade to the Duramax is a 5k deal. If you need that torque, great, it has it, but if you don't....you can buy a lot of gas for $5k.

In the end, you buy what you need and can afford. I don't think you can go wrong with any of the 3 engines talked about in this post. Heck even the 8.1L is a great engine...all you need is a pile of cash to feed it. I know where you can get $5k to feed the 8.1L though. ;)Edited by: Silvertwinkie

SW........ 6qt for the 6.0 and 10qt for the 6.6. So, how in the heck do you spend 17 bucks on a synthetic oil change? Last time I looked at synthetic per qt, it was about 4.00. So, how in the heck are you using syn and a filter for 17 bucks?


I think it's great that your 6.0 gets 13/18. The best my 6.0 ever saw was 17.01 MPG..and that was really, really, really babying it for 400 miles. You said the LB7 supasses your MPG by quite much. I've had two of the d*mm things I have never even seen 17 MPH....ever, on a whole tank.


Oh, BTW...... The Burb has an 8.1 and 4x4. I had rather have that motor than the 6.0. The 8.1 will get about the same fuel econmy as the 6.0.........sounds weird, but true. Plus, It'll drag that 6.0 off to an a$$ kick'n class right quick. Now it will burn some oil once it's past 25k or so, they all will.





Burner---------------&gt; http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I have seen generic Synthetic (Wal Mart brand and such) for 2.99 a quart for some time. On the oil consumption. GM has some issues with the valve guide seals in some engines which causes some consumption problems. I have a 89 350 with 170K on it that uses maybe a quart every 3500 miles or so still but is had its valve guide seals replaced and upgraded many years ago by GM on a recall (it was not burning oil then either and it still gives a solid 18MPG on the hiway in a 4x4 burb to this day)

What I've done in the past is wait for Wal-Mart to have a sale on Mobil 1. I stocked up when they had the 5 quart jugs. I seem to recall getting them last year for approx $14 and change...but I also confused my 5 quart LT1 with the 6.0L. The 6.0L would be around $22 based on that buy. I am sure prices have gone up since last year. Also my 6.0L is a guesstimate. I am using conventional oil for the break in period. After that I plan on going to Amsoil which will surely raise that $22 cost even higher.

I have 2 other higher mileage GM vehicles. One that is 25 years old and has 166k on it (307ci). Looses no oil at all and runs like a champ. Five quarts in, five quarts out. The Impala SS now has 80k on it, tows a 3000lb boat and a 6300lb RV (not together). I drive it fairly spirited when not towing and that car also, so far does not burn any oil either.

I agree that the 8.1L is a much stronger engine. Before I decided to go with the 6.0L, I talked with dozens of folks that owned either a 6.0L or 8.1L engine. What I found was that the majority of the folks that had the 8.1L, even at a fairly young age (15-25k) would consume some degree of oil. Not one person of the 7 people I talked with (face to face not including about 10 folks I had chatted with on various forums) had any oil consumption with the 6.0L with some of the 6.0L folks having on average 43k on the engines. Of course, some of the 2001 and newer folks did bring up piston slap more often than the 8.1L folks did, but there were also 8.1L doing it. Check out www.pistonslap.com It made for some good reading. Additionally, those same folks shared their MPG for each engine both towing about 7000lbs or more and not towing. All but 3 6.0L owners had higher MPG with the 6.0L both towing and not compared to the 8.1L. Of course the 8.1L folks did have BIGGER grins on their faces. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

As for your MPG with your LB7s Burner, I don't know. The majority of the folks I talked with minus say one or two have gotten some really impressive MPG results with that engine compared to folks that have the LLY. If I recall correctly, one guy on this forum was getting about 15-16mpg towing an RV. Now I know that some of the LLY owners have reported MPG increases as the engine ages, however a fair number of folks I seem to recall were getting about 10mpg towing with the LLY out of the box...some not towing which I had not heard from the LB7 folks.

Fuel economy though is like women. No two are alike, they all bitch and moan, they have several factors that effect them, and in the end cost a crapload of money to maintain. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Edited by: Silvertwinkie

I'll need to shop a little more....I've never seen 5qt jugs of Mobil 1 or Delvac. All we have here is the 4qt jug or 1 Gallon jug. It would be nice to have the 5qt.........but I have never seen one.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


On the 8.1 burning oil, I think it was part of the design. The 8.1 is really just a work motor. The design suggests that it has the ability to heat up without becomming a furnace like the old 454. Once the 8.1 is up to temp it should not burn much if any oil.


In the 2500 series I have had a 2000 6.0 Chevy, 2001 8.1 GMC, 2002 6.6 GMC and this 2003 6.6 GMC. The 6.0 could get 15 MPG @ 75 or 80 MPH all day long. The 8.1 could get better than 12 @ 75 or 80 MPH. However, I have yet to see one tank avg over 15MPG on either of my 6.6 GM Diesels. Frankly, I'm about sick of it. I'll try one more reflash or ask them to look at it...and that's it. If they fix it, I'll stay.......it they don't, I move on.





Burner-------------&gt; http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

The 6.0 is a good solid engine (except for some have piston slap) with good power and if you gear it to run about 500rpm higher that a 8.1 under load I do not think you will be disapointed with performance or mileage vs the 8.1. The biggest mistake that people make on knocking engines is that they gear a 6.0 the same as a 8.1 or 6.6 and cry about performance when the 6.0 has a much different power curve than the other two engines and needs the correct gearing to make up for it.

Also, nothing is really gained with $8/qt amsoil verse Mobil One or such (except profit for Amsoil dealer) as I have run several engine past 200K with it, big and small. It is wise though to use a few fills of conventional oil though to properly break engine in though. Edited by: snoman

I've so far been pretty pleased with Mobil 1. I think Amsoil is only a bit better. Frankly I think you may be right that the extra cost might not be worth it, particularly if I still change the motor oil at 3000 miles in extreme (towing) use. Though the Amsoil gear and trans oil I've bought has been closer to the $8/qt, the motor oil can be purchased as low as $4.10 if you buy by the 55gal drum or $5.10 if I buy in 12 quart lots. Obviously a 55gal drum is a hell of a commitment. They do make a 30gal drum as well and the price breaks down to $4.25 (todays rates). I know Mobil 1 has similar offerings. For the cars that tow, I've been putting in 10w30 in the summer, 5w30 for non towing cars/trucks and 5w30 for all vehicles in the winter. I'd be interested in anyones comments on the 10w30 vs 5w30. Also I've been thinking of staying conventional oil until about 3000 miles. I did change the engine oil at near 500 miles, but placed conventional back in. Do you think 3000 miles would be a good time to convert to synthetic or should I wait to 6000?

I agree with the gearing selection being key w/ the 6.0L. I have 4.10s in the Burb. With stock rims/tires the RPMs are lower than what they are on my Impala SS w/3.73s and 17" rims. About half the folks I spoke with had 4.10s and they told me straight out (didn't hold much back) that the 4.10s in the back of the 6.0L or 8.1L is the only way to go if you tow. Of course the Duramax folks are 3.73s, though there was a time you could get 4.10s, but with all that torque, it was already like a freight train. :) They admitted that w/ the 8.1L 4.10s are a bit much, but you never hear complaints from anyone that has them and tows 4 or 5 tons behind it.

I also agree the 6.0L is a very potent engine. Even with 4.10s though, I still don't think it would tow upward of 8000lbs in mountainous areas or hills. That was one thing that folks I talked to were very mixed on.

Best of luck with those diesels Burner. I am disappointed to hear the MPG issues you are having. One of my biggest decsions was to go with a quad cab Duramax/Allision pickup or the Suburban. The MPG projections that some have claimed were a HUGE factor in my leaning toward the Duramax. In the end though we plan on having a family pretty soon and even the quad cabs would be outgrown fairly shortly, so that's how the Suburban won out in our case.Edited by: Silvertwinkie

My 8.1 has 4.10's.....hauls 6 tons without a problem. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif





BTW..... 6.0 GM vs 5.8 Hemi vs 5.6 Titan........ Decide what your main pryority is and not what the truck does every day. I think that most of us have these trucks so that we can PULL and get good MPG. (Although, most of us just haul a lot of hot air around.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif) When we do pull, we're happy and that's what counts. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif


I'd go with the 5.8 Hemi. I'm sure the Hemi has more all around power and about the same MPG. The 5.8 will be a bigger truck and should be able to tow more. Don't get me wrong, I like GM but the "stock" 6.0 is not what I would call a good engine. Every 6.0 I have ever seen sucks fuel for it's size. Remember, the difference between an old 5.7 and the 6.0 is only about 13ci...that's all.


Tell us what you're thinking........





Burner--------------&gt; http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I think the 6.0 needs a 4.56 for serious towing as a 4.10 will not cut it in a heavy truck with 31's or so and OD is useless towing with them. The 4.56 wakes it up and gets the engine in a RPM range that it like to be at when asked to work hard. For many years I towed 4 horse trailers and travel trailer and such with a 350/4bbl with 4.10 and a 4 speed manual (no OD) and never found it lacking or unable to pull a interstate hill in 4th. I got 11 to 13mpg with it towing too (depending on load) Gears will make or break any tow vehical.

Didn't start the political thing, just tried to end it. Anyhow, I would go with the diesel.







Out.




And up the price at least by about 8 to 10 grand too bigger/heavier truck model(costs more) and diesel option too. Not a very cost effective solution. Big upgrade over a Titan or 1/2 ton Hemi and insurance would be higher too.





You guys are not getting it.





If you base your fuel assumptions on costs of gas/diesel over the past 10-15 years you are going to be SHOCKED in the next 10 years. The cost differential is going to change VASTLY and favor the diesel FAR MORE THAN ANY OF YOU CAN IMAGINE.





I buy and sell cargo lots of oil daily for a living. You will get a brief spike in diesel costs as the specs change to lower sulfur as we approach winter. After that gas will, over time, become vastly more expensive than diesel.





If this occurs your payback period for the extra $6k for the diesel/allison will change; dramatically.





Those driving 8 litre gassers will only "fuel' this price disparity hugely so I for one am gleeful there are so many who continue to drive mogas drinkers.

I'd agree that diesel will pay for the upgrade to the Allision/Duramax combo and eventually one will realize a postive savings as a result of using diesel. Where I think there is a vast misunderstanding is that folks that drive stuff for a living, or drive more than the average number of miles in a year will see the benefits in short order compared to that of the gassers.

Where folks I feel get confused is that for the average Joe, towing or not driving at the average or below the national average miles will not realize the payback of diesel for nearly a decade depending on what fuel costs may be. I think it's impossible to look into a crystal ball and say exactly with certainty where fuel prices will be in say 5 years. Right now there is an approx .20/gal difference in 87 octane fuel and diesel currently.

So with that said, let say in the future, the cost of diesel is .35/gal less than regular 87 ocatane gas. Keep in mind that the extra cost of upgrading to the diesel is about $5500 (approx)...and let's also figure that the average 2500HD has a 37gallon tank. Using those figure, you would have to fill that 37 gallon tank 425 times before the savings started to the positive. Keep in mind that 425 fillups will take a fair amount of time to do (unless you drive for a living). While you are working on getting those 425 tankfulls done, the truck is continuing to depreciate in value at the same time. So looking at the average mileage of 15k/year the average person that gets 15mpg with their diesel will fill that tank about 30x per year, or 14 years just to have the diesel fuel savings pay for the upgrade in engine and transmission. So the wider the difference the shorter the payback and realization of a "profit". Those getting more than 15mpg with their diesels will take even longer to realize a "profit".

Of course fuel costs will rise and diesel does cost less to produce than standard gasoline. However, keep in mind that the laws of supply and demand apply to diesel as well. Having owned diesel cars in the late 70s, early 80s and 90s, I can tell you first hand that diesel was piss cheap, then the demand started..hell, even Mercedes had diesels here in the US. Well, those days of diesel in passenger cars is making a BIG comeback. As demand grows, so might cost as it is over the past 20 years as has been mentioned. I know cause I paid it and was a bit miffed by the fact that when I started in 1975 with a Mercedes 300D, compared to where I found myself by the late 80s, early 90s was almost no better than gas, particularly when the floor fell out in price per barrel. Why do you think they stopped or massively scaled back passenger car diesels? I'm sure the folks in Germany are far wiser than I cause I couldn't get a diesel Mercedes after the early 1990s after having one in 1975, 1982 and lastly in 1991. GM, VW, Ford, etc all followed suit. Not that I am against diesel, I am not. It has big benefits. Those that say they can get 300k on a diesel, I am sure they are correct. However, a properly maintained and not beaten gasser can also have a long life. I've had 1 gasser last 230k and my 25 year old 307 has 167k on it. Not as much as some diesels, but still fairly respectable.

So I agree, but as with any numbers, they can be skewed to any viewpoint or perspective. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif Edited by: Silvertwinkie

Agreed that you see rises and falls in fuel prices and that this will continue. My point is that one does not need a crystal ball to predict future "flat price" direction on oil/fuel prices; they are going to go up, period/end of story.


Reason 1: Gasssers who just LOVE to burn thru fuel; primarily here in the States. Reason 2: demand for fuel/oil is rising globally. This is not going to change and will only get worse. Why? For the first time in world history the United States is competing for oil in a very real sense (primarily from West Africa which is now mostly going to China; you see those little babies that farmed are now high school/college students and they too drive...and there are lots of them...).


Gas vs Diesel ("heat" as we call it?): It will only widen favoring diesel. Why? Cost of "cracking" diesel to gasoline in a refinery: 7 -12 cents per gallon (depends upon region). Gas has this thing called octane. Octane costs money. Price of octane somewhat dependent upon chemical demand for same octane feedstocks. More people are using chemicals....Octanes will cost more. Diesel is insensitive to octane costs. Final blow? TAXES. Applied to the price per gallon itself/self-explanatory.


Last point: The cost of gas or diesel here in the States is very cheap on a relative basis compared to other places. We have broken all-time highs on oil prices. Has the U.S. consumer curtailed use? Very little impact on how much energy y'all keep using. To oil companies this means quite simply that they can and will charge more (sadly, this does not mean price gouging; it means they want to maintain SAME margin as before with much higher cost of oil). They think that the consumer will just continue buying 8 litre motors, Excursions, whatever; we only seem to want to drive big old SUV's.

When I calculate the cost of owning and driving a vehical during its life, I factor in purchase price, Insurance, maintainance, repairs and so on. A diesel looks good in theory because of generally better MPG but they cost a lot more up front, to maintain and to repair if they break down out of warranty and chances are pretty slim that the Allison will not go 200 K or even 100K if you work it some (it does not have a good track record yet) which adds more to the cost of ownership too. If you have a major Injector or tranny problem out of warranty you may never come out ahead on the balance sheet. When they were a $2500 option it was different but thoses days are gone. If they were $2500 again, I would definatly say they you could possible save money but at $6500 or better a copy, the bottom line gets fuzzy as to whether it will ever pay off. Diesels do have their advantages for sure and can make some impressive power with some tweaking without question but on the true cost of ownership of one, I do think that it is cheaper to own a gasser in the long run for more than 90% of the time when you factor ALL the costs of ownership.Edited by: snoman

I see your point fuel and I agree with most of what you say, however, I am not sure I can say with any certainty that there will be within the next 5 years a .50/gal difference between gas and diesel. Although todays numbers are historically the highest the US has ever paid, I can tell you that there were a bunch of 8.1L sitting on the dealer lots when I went looking for our Suburban. I also noticed that there were a fair number of less than 1 year old large trucks and SUVs. So I am not sure folks are still running our and buying large trucks unless then need them. As you've said, each year more new vehicles that were once not needed are now needed due to population growth. That alone could be one of the greatest factors that impact demand. I'm not discounting the fact that there are a fair number of us gas guzzlers out there.

Besides all that my main point is that you are correct that diesel is not only stronger, lasts a bit longer and gets better fuel economy, however, unless you drive much more than the 15k per year average, there becomes a .50/gal diff and/ or the cost of the diesel engines goes down, there is little incentive to get a truck with the $5k option (unless you really need the power and torque) since it would take the average Joe, even at a .50/gal difference hundreds of fillups for the cost savings to pay for the engine/trans upgrade.

Of course I can only speak for Chevy, I don't pay attention to Fords and the main issue I am basing my arguement on is a Chevy Duramax/Allison pickup truck. If there were trucks that had far less cost, meaning about $1000-$2000 upcharge for it, then your point makes perfect sense. If folks didn't need a Duramax and could buy say a VW or domestic with a plain jane turbo diesel and the diesel engine was a small upcharge, I'd say you have hit it right on the head, but I can't speak to the passenger car diesels of today or a different truck line. So you could be 100% right outside of the Duramax/Allison relam I'm talkin' about.

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We are close to agreement but a properly maintained gasser today will last about as long as a deisel will and a overboosted diesel will have a shorter lifespan plain and simple. As far as fuel prices, here during the winter, diesel is never cheaper than gas and is usually 15 to 30 cents more a gallon, durring the summer it is 10 to 20 cents cheaper so about six months it cost more and six months it cost a bit less (today it is 10 cents more, it had been 20 cents more) On the mileage driven, you are far to generous I think. You need to run 35 to 40k a year atleast to maybe break even or come out a bit ahead in 4 or 5 years time and at which time warrenty is gone and so it your hopes of coming out ahead if it breaks out of warrenty. Yes you could trade it in and start all over in the hole again too but high milage diesels with no warranties are not top dollar tradeins either, especailly the Dmax because it does not have a 10 year plus track record behind it like a Cummin or older PowerStroke. To me a truck is a tool and I like to spend a liytle as possible on it during its lifespan. If they were still $2500 options, I would consider one for a new truck, but never at current option prices or their hi tech repair costs. There is a price for that "power".Edited by: snoman

I think the 6.0 needs a 4.56 for serious towing as a 4.10 will not cut it in a heavy truck with 31's or so and OD is useless towing with them. The 4.56 wakes it up and gets the engine in a RPM range that it like to be at when asked to work hard. For many years I towed 4 horse trailers and travel trailer and such with a 350/4bbl with 4.10 and a 4 speed manual (no OD) and never found it lacking or unable to pull a interstate hill in 4th. I got 11 to 13mpg with it towing too (depending on load) Gears will make or break any tow vehical.





11-13 mpg while towing? We you driving down Mt Everest?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif

11-13 mpg while towing? We you driving down Mt Everest?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif

Nope, a mix of flat land and hilly country. It used to get about 15mpg on hiway not towing. IF you keep a engine in its "sweet spot" towing (around its torque peak) it will be its happiest and most efficent too. I used to be turnning 2600 to 2800 RPM cruising with a trailer between 60 and 65 mph and if I took it up to 70 or more it would be doing 3000 or better and was happy cruising as high as 3500 RPM above 80 MPH. Around 70 or so it was around 11MPG towing and about 14 not towing. Drove it for 10 years and 150K miles before selling it and it still ran fine and used no oil. I replaced it with a J20 Jeep P/U that was not as strong at top end (above 60 mph) but it never went below about 11 mpg on the hiway no matter how hard I pulled it either. Neither truck varied much in MPG form no load to load. Edited by: snoman

fuel007one: What happen when diesel is the popular choice?? not gas. demand for diesel will go up so will price for diesel. than gas will be cheap. Plus no one has mention the extra cost of maintianing a diesel, high pressure fuel system requires strict maintance. Far for those big 8liters, on the highway running empty I make 14.8 to 15.5. Beside do you need 6.6 liters of diesel motor. Could use a 4-cylinder diesel, and 10-speed. What are you going to say when DOD come out on gassers? Technology will be the decider on what fuel we use. Personally I would like to see hydrogen/electric.


I would go with the chevy 6.0 motor. Which has proven deliver good MPG. Unlike hemi 5.7 which I have to hear to make over 14mpg. PLus hemi heads were orginally design to burn aclohol and nitro-methane, not gasoline. This is why near all pro-stock heads are copy of the chevy big block design. nissan 5.6 would by over the a ford, but not a chevy.

Hammer: what happens when diesel is popular choice? It still stays cheaper than gas. If you doubt this then go look at fuel prices outside of the States so GAS WILL NOT BE CHEAPER.

IT COSTS LESS TO MANUFACTURE DIESEL FUEL THAN MOTOR GASOLINE AND NO MATTER WHAT IT WILL ALWAYS REPEAT ALWAYS BE CHEAPER TO MAKE.

Diesel mainenance? You show me what your poorly/moderately maintained gasser looks/runs like versus my diesel with 150,000 miles on it with same level of maintenance? Give me a BREAK.

Oil changes? Please, spare me. If you can't find a cheap quart (or 12 or whatever) or MOTOR OIL relative to GALLONS of fuel used then I give up.

Why does Greyhound not move people in gas powered vehicles? Why do farmers not burn gasoline? Perhaps Greyhound, virtually every motor yacht or tankership sailing the ocean, and the entire motor trucking fleet moving goods throughout, well... , ANYWHERE really do not have the keen maintenance insights and advantages of mogas vehicles that several here seem to have.

I am leaving this thread having put forth what I can. If you wanna buy a Titan then go for it please. I couldn't really care less.

Hammer: what happens when diesel is popular choice? It still stays cheaper than gas. If you doubt this then go look at fuel prices outside of the States so GAS WILL NOT BE CHEAPER.

IT COSTS LESS TO MANUFACTURE DIESEL FUEL THAN MOTOR GASOLINE AND NO MATTER WHAT IT WILL ALWAYS REPEAT ALWAYS BE CHEAPER TO MAKE.



Not really because diesel competes with heating oil stocks during winter months in a lot of states (both are number 2) and it ALWAYS costs more than gas here during the winter and has for many years. I used to buy number 2 heating oil for 48 cents a gal once upon a time about 10 to 15 years ago in the late summer. It is $1.50/gal this year right now here and add road tax to that for Deisel fuel prices. Right now gas here is about $1.65/gal and diesel about $1.85 (today)

First of all, of the reason gas and diesel cost more overseas is because of their stuipd social programs, in other words they tax the hell out it. most europe get their oil(90%) from midde east, so they get it cheap, menaing it don't need travel far. It is their taxes that rasies the cost of gas. And more poeple used gas power, when they did thier tax structure, hence diesel was not tax as much. You can bet that soon as gas becomes the unpopular choice for everybody, they will switch thier tax structures to diesel, to keep paying for thier social programs over in europe. What do you think going to happen here when everybody is driving a high MPG cars and truck. MORE TAXES to keep state coffers full of money, and they will tax energy resource that is most used to get the most money. This why hydrogen is so slow to market, how could they tax something that you can get free everywhere!!!!


I always thought that energy controlled by suppy and demand. Demand goes up, suppy goes down, prices go up. hence more diesel users ,more demand, less suppy ,up goes price. That how it works.


Far as maintance, I have 5 filters on my truck. air, fuel, oil, 2 trans. I only need to change one every 3k miles($7.95), and 2 of them every 30k miles( $35 for reuseable air filter, $11.95 fuel filter) . The others due at 40k miles for the allison. MOst of time, is gas and go. thats it.


Dad has a dmax, fuel filters at 15k like clockwork, water separtor and filters, oil filter, air filter, 2 trans filters. plus he want to add another fuel filter, help clean fuel better and have less injector problems. Those filter cost money and their not 7.95 and 11.95 like mine are. Simple fact that going use a high pressure injection system need to keep it clean.

I gotta speak up here (though I said this earlier)....

We've owned diesel passenger cars since about 1980. Between 1975 and 1986, diesel was clearly the way to go. We spent a bit more on oil changes and they were louder and less refined back then. We loved the fact that when gas was going for about $1.10, diesel was about .80/gal. However, by the mid eighties, we found that diesel fuel was nearly equal to low octane gas. By the late 80s, early 90s, diesel was actually more expensive at times. Hence, most passenger car manufacs stopped offering diesel powered cars. Mostly due to lackluster sales and interest in the unrefined diesels and the public liking the instant power of gassers and the lower cost of gas back then.

There is a new trend lately and folks are starting to see and buy diesel again. Not so much for the slightly lower or equal cost to regular 87 octane, but to be able to get 1.5x the range that a comp gasser could do. In the passenger car arena, there is no HUGE upcharge for the diesel as there appears to be in the truck segments, which was the bases of most of my rantings. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

BTW, if the body were in good shape, I'd have to put my 1980 Olds 307 up in par with your diesel that has 150k on it. Mine has about 167k on it, burns no oil and runs like a top...seriously. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif Edited by: Silvertwinkie

I have put a few cars past 200k and most recently and Toyota at 215k, and my 89 burb has 170K. The Toy got its first timimg belt change at 190K (still was not broken) and still has original starter and alt and clutch too. Never been in the shop except for new struts at 170K. It has hit 40 MPG on hiway and it goes too (a Camary with a 16 valve 4 banger) The burb is still stock, only having a few of it engine contol sensors replaced a few years ago and it run great and will do 17 MPG plus on road (it is a 4x4 too) and uses about a quart every 4k miles which is nothing. I used to work with a guy that kept his cars to atleast 300k (he drove 50 to 60K a year) with no overhauls and the ran good the whole time.

On the 1.5 x better range, that may have been true 20 years ago but not today and gassers do a lot better than then. My burb with its 40 gallon tank will do 500 miles easy and has done 600 miles a few times (I can make it from Ohio to Denver on one fuel stop) Edited by: snoman

Snowman...I agree. The only part I don't agree with fully is the fact that modern diesels can't still do 1.5x better than the gassers in MPG. If you are talking a truck, no disagreement at all. If you're also talking passenger cars as well, I might not agree, understanding that with the new pollution control gear the EPA is adding to diesels will bring them down a bit from the good ol days. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

You are clearly getting 12.5mpg, and paying about $80 to fill it (today's cost). A LB7 engine can and will get upwards of 18mpg, which I know is not 1.5x, but my 1.5x comment was geared more toward passenger car diesels that are out or on their way.Edited by: Silvertwinkie

"IF" you are getting 12 MPG which I am not though. I get about 13mpg around town and about 16 to 17 on road. I live in country so I do not do too much driving in traffic. It costs me 40 to 55 bucks to fill up (depending on prices) and a fill is good for 350 to 400 miles. If I use $4000 of fuel to go 40,000 miles and $3000 (diesel cost more this time of year here) to go same with a diesel I am still over $5000 in the hole on the cost of one without even figuring maintaince. Hey some of those diesels are really strong engines without doubt, I just have issue with claims that they are cheaper to own that all because most of the time they are not.

What I would like to see them build (never happen though) is a hybrid diesel/electric SUV or car with a 50 to 100 HP (or so) diesel that runs at a constant efficent speed and charges a hitech battery bank that powers electric motors to run vehical and engine keeps them topped off. It would be extreme. Throw in regenerative braking and it could get dome impressive fuel mileage and have no range limitations. Would not work well for towing though.

Damm problem lay in the fact that the cars can "deal" with the emmissions in the tailpipe using heat........ the diesels do it with that damm EGR and put the heat into the motor or they'll have an "extra" injection like the cummins or that goofy thing that cat has, which use "cooler" temps for Teir II compliance. Either way the Diesels are at a disadvantage...for now. More energy is extracted from Diesel fuel....but also more pollutants. Which is something that still does not make sence to me. (read up on it and you'll agree with me) Pretty soon the gas cars will have direct injection just like the Diesels. Yes, they are time bombs but the extraction is too good to pass up. I'm not sure of the yeild but if I were to guess, I'd say 15% more power and 10% better fuel economy.


sorry bout' that......... gett'n off my soapbox


Burner---------------&gt; http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Diesels are very bad about NOx (Nitrous Oxide). THe higher the combustion temps the more it makes. WHen you boost them with Juice and what have you the NOx goes into orbit. I prdiect that when new standards for deisel emmisions take effect in 08, it is going to be a lot harder to tamper with them.

I REALLY hate to say it...........but... snow, you are correct on the emmissions.


However, when you "richen" the mixture the combustion temp goes-----Down--- on OEM stuff. Increase the timming and then you'll get some heat. What kills me is that the difference between a "compliant" truck and one that is "out" is very very little. And, if you take in account all the extra crude it takes to produce the "extra" fuel needed to meet that compliance....... it get's kind'a goofy. EX--&gt; 100,000 trucks that are "out" produce 12 tons of NOx per day burning 20 gallons per truck (2 Million gallons), averaging 15 MPG. Now, take that same ammount of trucks and slap the tier II crap on them. Those same trucks that meet "compliance" will average about 12 MPG and produce about 10 tons of NOx. How many more gallons will they burn? How many barrels will that take? How many extra transportation trips will that make? How much extra Idle time will that ensue? Answer......... A lot That's my beef. Although some will see it differently...... that's my .02 worth and I'll leave it at that.


BTW........ Don't jump in and say the extra fuel makes it more hot right after I said OEM. The extra fuel is use to cool the temps. The timming is turned up for what......increasing the pulse width so that more fuel can be added and BURNED. I'm thinking like the manufacture, not a programmer.





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Yes but in a diesel you have heat from two sources. One is from compession itself which has got to raise air temp in cylinder to about 900 degrees or more so fuel will ingnite when injected. On the amount of fuel injected vs temps, later injection on more fuel will lower the average combustion temps of the engine but not the peak and will add the emmisions if lot of extra fuel is injected to make more power. (it is a delicate balance to keep it clean, in a gasser, overrich mixutures will cool it a good bit) A deisel runs by capturing the energy in expanding hot gases as the oil burns and it takes heat from combustion to run the process. The peak temps and the duration of the burn controls power output. Extra boost from a bigger turbo is a freebie in that without changing fuel setting, added boost will increase HP a bit and lower EGT temps.Edited by: snoman

Wow, lots of interesting reading in this thread. I think just about every aspect of owning gas or diesel was covered. I can say that I am very happy with my 6.0L HD. It gets the job done for me and has been reliable for over 75,000mi now. I would like to own a diesel as well one day. They are both interesting to me and have there good and bad points. So I guess I will just take one of each and argue with my self as to which is better! lol http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


I guess it comes down to the simple fact that you purchase what fits your needs and budget at the time. That is how I ended up with my 2500HD and I am very happy with it. I guess you can debate costs, performance and the like until you are blue in the face, but in the end it comes down to personal preference and what you are willing to spend for a new truck up front. To each their own, right?


Take care all...Edited by: Chevyfreek