I just received a call from our local Chevrolet dealer service manager here in Columbus, Ohio relating that our GM diesel truck's running problems were due to "BAD FUEL"!
The service manager cringed as he said it as he knew I would be responding with unkind words. The service manager indicated that, according to GM's fuel test method, required before any warranty works is accomplished on the fuel system, the fuel test result was "out of limits" and therefore "bad fuel".
I immediately went to the shop with a sample of my pristine, 51 cetane index, 14/11/9 ISO, 33 ppm water, filtered to 1 micron BP Diesel Supreme and we tested it with his hydrometer/density gauge.
My new BP ultra fuel was termed "BAD FUEL", the same as the sample from the truck... So here is the service tech holding this beautiful, crystal clear high quality diesel fuel saying, "yep, it is no good"...
Sooo, we can have warranty disavowed for "bad fuel" when in fact the diesel fuel is the highest quality in all parameters, exceeding all astm specifications!!!!
I do not have answers for this one, just venting, unbelievably!!
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
614-492-2000

I guess I didn't know density was such an issue. Was it too dense, or not dense enough? In what manner does either make it a "bad fuel".

I just received a call from our local Chevrolet dealer service manager here in Columbus, Ohio relating that our GM diesel truck's running problems were due to "BAD FUEL"!
The service manager cringed as he said it as he knew I would be responding with unkind words. The service manager indicated that, according to GM's fuel test method, required before any warranty works is accomplished on the fuel system, the fuel test result was "out of limits" and therefore "bad fuel".
I immediately went to the shop with a sample of my pristine, 51 cetane index, 14/11/9 ISO, 33 ppm water, filtered to 1 micron BP Diesel Supreme and we tested it with his hydrometer/density gauge.
My new BP ultra fuel was termed "BAD FUEL", the same as the sample from the truck... So here is the service tech holding this beautiful, crystal clear high quality diesel fuel saying, "yep, it is no good"...
Sooo, we can have warranty disavowed for "bad fuel" when in fact the diesel fuel is the highest quality in all parameters, exceeding all astm specifications!!!!
I do not have answers for this one, just venting, unbelievably!!
George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
614-492-2000



What were the symptoms for the running problems? I suppose they need to explain what makes them believe it is "bad fuel". Sounds like they are calling out the wrong person when it comes to fuel knowledge. They better have their firefighting gear on! SPICER

So what you are saying is GM is trying to weasle out of doing warranty work.


Everytime I hear bad fuel or water in fuel, I immediatly refocuse the responsibillaty back at GM. They are the ones who engineered,designed and installed the OEM fuel filtering system. If it does not do an adequate job, then it is there problem.

Apparently a reading (density?) of over 33 declares a fuel as "bad". My pristine fuel tested at 41, so therefore labeled "very bad"....
My diesel fuel is obviosly meeting/exceeding every ASTM specification known to man. Hopefully someone can shed light on this as we/the lab cannot..
i.e. the fuel is of the highest quality diesel fuel currently available for use and yet is a disavow for warranty relating to fuel issues.
George Morrison

Man......I just got through reading the latest bad injector thread and this one pops up about "Bad Fuel" disavowing warranties. Does the warranty spell out the parameters for "Bad Fuel" and the testing parameters? George seems to be an expert yet his "ASTM" fuel didn't pass. How are we supposed to test the fuel we buy? This should be one HOT Topic.......Bronco has a good point about the OEM filter. I'm gonna look over the fine print of my warranty section

George,


What exactly is bad about the fuel? If it meets ASTM 975 (which allows 500ppm water)specification then it should be ok for our trucks--per the manuel.


Note: The manuel said nothing about ISO standards for our trucks.


Please keep us informed on what the outcome is.

I WONDER WHAT THEY WOULD SAY ABOUT RUNNING RED?

Ask them to test some fuel from a truck on their lot and see if it is bad too. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Wow George,


that's one thing i never thought i would hear from you.. what traits of the diesel cause the density to be higher or lower?


i presume the density value isn't present on the lab samlpes many of us have sent in?


good luck!


nick

Sounds like an excuse. With all the injectors that GM is replacing, it is costing someone a fortune. Maybe an excuse to save some money (for GM)
From what I have been reading, diesel in the U.S (and maybe Canada) is very poor quality. GM should be taking this into consideration when designing their products. No secondary filtration required.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

George,


This has got to be a new requirement--density?? There is no mention of it anywhere in the manuel?


This sounds like a bad nightmare. Funny--could you past the density test yet have dirty fuel?


Seems like they are checking for something that really does not matter? What is the rationale for checking for density only and not other parameters?

Hmm 41 is the thickest permisable under 975 if I read it correctly. I can't find anything, yet, in my paperwork that would disallow fuel this heavy. Any idea where they are getting the 33 for viscosity?

Either the Tech or GM as a whole is trying to blow smoke up your a$$. s long as I have the Factory approved fuel filter in place, and I am running road approved diesel fuel in my truck. I just want them to try to use a lame ass excuse like that.


Needless to say, they would be replacing the injectors, or someone would be going to hell just before I went to jail, because I would have to kill that sum bitch real quick.


GM and their Techs are getting real desperate now, and they will try pretty much anything to get out of warranty work.


As mentioned above, have them test a new truck that GM put the fuel in. I bet it fail in this lame test as well.

Ask him where they fill up there trucks before delivery. Then go buy a gallon or two and have them test that! I'll bet it's worse than what your engine is seeing.

Fingers, you mention viscosity. How are they measuring viscosity with a hydrometer? If they really are worrying about the viscosity, then what temp are they measuring it at? Every standard method would have a specific temperature and it would only be luck if the shop floor met that specific temperature.

I'm with Mike someone will pay besides me. I'm saving my fuel receipts from this day forward for proof of purchase and date.





Mac

Are they implying that a "denser" fuel is full of water? This is my understanding since water is more dense than diesel fuel. A water content analysis should clear that up not to mention the fact that the WIF sensor should warn of "poor" fuel if it is water logged. SPICER

From a quick google search, it would seem 41 is on the higher side of normal for API specific gravity of #2, but unless there is a specific range given in an ASTM standard they are going to be hard pressed to deny service because of it. The numbers I read were without any additive package, which I am sure is going to change the density, so I don't know how they account for that.

Wonder if Primrose 405 additive increases density?


Definitely want to keep an eye on this one.

Would love to see what your dealer is using as a WRITTEN GM directive to determine "bad fuel" to disavow warranty work. It would be nice to compare it with the warranty on our trucks. If GM is going to start this, I am not going to purchase a new truck for $45,000 and neither should any of the rest of this group. Basically, they apparently are saying that the fuel you purchase at the pump and goes through the factory filter system (they may have an illegitimate argument if you have a additional post factory fuel filter as well) has to meet their particular guidelines or no warranty. Pardon me, but that is a crock of ----! GM is going to lose big in sales if this gets out. I have a feeling this is a particular dealer, who like my local GMC dealer's servicemanager, feels everything should first be considered not warranted and you the customer must prove to an absolute certainty it is warranty. For this reason, my ordered truck is a Chev, 5 of my friends new vehicles in the last month are Chev's, and that particular GMC dealer will never see another sale to anyone I know. See if you can find the documentation. My Chev servicemanager doesn't believe it exists from GM.

Fingers, you mention viscosity. How are they measuring viscosity with a hydrometer? If they really are worrying about the viscosity, then what temp are they measuring it at? Every standard method would have a specific temperature and it would only be luck if the shop floor met that specific temperature.

Viscosity was the only thing that came close in the ASTM spec. Probably not it. I did find this (http://www.tdiclub.com/articles/Diesel_Fuel_Guidlines/) which is the EMA's FQP-1A spec for diesel.

This spec says 39 for the specific gravity for #2 fuel. ASTM recognized that this property was a function of the makeup of the fuel's stock and was not a "quality" requirement. EMA only claims it has a rough relation to the power available in the fuel. Thus a higher number has less energy.

So, they are turning you away because you are using low yield fuel!!!!

This is a copy from:


Engine Manufacturers Association


Recommended Guideline on Diesel Fuel


Definition:


API Gravity


This is a measure of fuel’s specific gravity or density. While specific gravity has no units, density is defined as mass per unit volume and both are temperature dependent. API gravity is defined as follows.


API gravity of diesel fuel has a profound effect on engine power. As a general rule, there is a 3-5% decrease in the thermal energy content of fuel for every 10 degree increase in API gravity. This decrease in energy content will result in roughly the same percentage decrease in engine power. Use of fuels with higher API gravity will also result in higher fuel consumption (lower mpg). EMA’s recommendation to include a maximum API gravity is based on our understanding of customer needs to maintain engine power, while minimizing fuel consumption.



<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=7 width=546 border=1>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="49%">Property</TD>
<TD width="20%">
Test
Method</TD>
<TD width="15%">
FQP-1A
EMA
#1 DF(1)</TD>
<TD width="15%">
FQP-1A
EMA
#2 DF(1)</TD></TR></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=7 width=546 border=1>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="49%">API Gravity, max.</TD>
<TD width="20%">D 287</TD>
<TD width="15%">
43</TD>
<TD width="15%">
39</TD></TR></T></TABLE>





That's at 60 F


This is a cut and paste. I am not a petrochemical Engineer, but I know a good one and I will ask him about this "Test" a non chemist is performing.

Sounds like complete bullsh*t to me.


Send this over to Dmaxallitech and have him find out what the heck this "test" they are applying is.


I manage an analytical lab and there is at least 10 ways you can screw up any test. First you start with the "instrument" and see how repeatable it is in a fixed environment, if at all, then move on to its ability to differentiate good from bad. It could be that every kind of diesel made reads 41 on their instrument. If you prove that you have repeatability and discrimination, then and only then can you move on to figure out how accurate the damn thing is. And you probably need reference standards to do that, if they exist.


If you find out what it is, and it's cheap, I'll run the gauntlet on it for us all. Some simple statistics are probably enough.Edited by: nwpadmax

The reading they are using is indeed an API reading. Its really the only means we have in the dealer to test fuel and by no means fail proof. 41 is on the high side for #2 fuel and is close to #1 fuel, but even so, It says in my owners manual that #1 fuel is just fine in extreme cold conditions, even that I can mix kerosene in my fuel to prevent freezing... that will head it towards the # 1 side.


Point being, unless there is water in fuel or some other problem...pooey. Especially when George Morrison, the godfather of clean fuel is told this. Apperently the dealer dont know who he is up against on this one! The only real use I can think of for API readings is for getting accurate test data when doing injector return flow, different API rated fuel will return at different rates. API must be known to accuratly test return flow...


I dont buy the dirty fuel thing in this case at allhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Will using fuel treatments like FPPF Total power cetane boost, or any of the other fuel treatments affect the fuel’s specific gravity or density???


If I'm not mistaken, from other posts on here, or the other page, there were a few dmax'es in a dealer with micro'bacterial or alge problems in the fuel systems, and the dealer was testing the fuel systems for fuel additives, and claimed null-warranty, I'm looking for the posts, may be at the page, but I'm sure I've read about fuel additives, the manual states not to use them, but we NEED to use them, now where do we get to stand after this??http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif


Just a note: How long may it take to develop a fuel contamination problem? I have a 2002 dmax, with 19,800 miles, sits in the garage all the time, I use it for family and friends, out of town and so on, with it sitting a-lot in the winter, I should have more problems than any-one, and not had a single fuel system issue ( been using FPPF total power and cetane boost for 3 months now ) installing about 8 oz per full tank ( 50% of each mixed ) and seems to be running better than before. I was using a fuel treatment called Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement since day one August 15th 2002, and I've only had an injector act up a couple of times. I have not installed a secondary fuel filter ( YET ) Cat filter possibly considering. Will treatments affect fuel’s specific gravity or density, to deny warranty.


Does not sound like GM is glad for your pride in ownership!


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I didn't know it was April 1st!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


What a joke of a dealerhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif and I'm not keeping receipts either.


Sick em George!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


Blake

Eric, when they train you guys on using the hydrometer, do they make any mention of temperature variations? Since the standard is set at 60 degrees, I doubt many shops are maintained at that temperature. A few degrees either way isn't going to make much difference, but a hot day with a warmed up truck (thus warmed up fuel) could make quite a difference.

This whole thing has to be some kind of joke, as their is absolutely no way any company could deny any warranty on such a flimsy test. As an analytical chemist, I agree with nwpadmax that any test procedure has to be extremely rigorously followed to hold any water in a court of law. I somehow doubt a plastic cup and hydrometer is going to make the grade.

I'm thinkin maybe HOOT had a leg up on this before George and that's the real reason he went out and bought his Dodge. You can run anything thru those things.

Eric, when they train you guys on using the hydrometer, do they make any mention of temperature variations? Since the standard is set at 60 degrees, I doubt many shops are maintained at that temperature. A few degrees either way isn't going to make much difference, but a hot day with a warmed up truck (thus warmed up fuel) could make quite a difference.

This whole thing has to be some kind of joke, as their is absolutely no way any company could deny any warranty on such a flimsy test. As an analytical chemist, I agree with nwpadmax that any test procedure has to be extremely rigorously followed to hold any water in a court of law. I somehow doubt a plastic cup and hydrometer is going to make the grade. by training, do you mean the instructions in the tester? LOL


The tester has a floating thermometer in it and tells your to +/- your readings by xx to gain the correct reading

by training, do you mean the instructions in the tester?* LOL


Sorry, I forget not everybody works in a GLP/GMP environment. I sometimes wonder when we will have the training seminar on how to properly use the toilet.Edited by: habanero

I sometimes wonder when we will have the training seminar on how to properly use the toilet.[/QUOTE]


Some people need this training also

Goerge,


Keep us informed, what is going on?

F*****g unbelievable!!! Trying to tell one of the most knowledgeable fuel people people around his fuel is bad is just some dealer's employee trying to flex his muscles and show his power. Some people really get off on that - too bad you ran into it. Sic em George.

George; was that Jack maxton (Spelling?) the one on US 33, just down the road from you? If so, I would not rely on anything they say.

Sounds like somebody is tired of warranty work on injectors and is passing the buck.


I smell a weasel, the other yellow meat.

re: "George; was that Jack maxton (Spelling?) the one on US 33, just down the road from you? If so, I would not rely on anything they say."
No, it was Bob McDorman Chevrolet. We have taken our Chevrolet/GMC diesels to every dealer in central Ohio and this is the only dealer that at least knows what a GM diesel engine looks like!

There is more... The vehicle was registered with BP as part of BP's Diesel Supreme protection promise; i.e. that fuel pumps are warrantied for 8 years/300,000 miles and injectors warranteed for 5 years or 200,000 miles. The truck has used *only* BP Diesel Supreme from day one and is registered with the program, so it will be most interesting to see the procedure here, especially when BP finds out their finest diesel fuel has been termed "bad fuel"...
This is one case where all ducks are truly in a row..
The vehicle is using the finest, cleanest, driest diesel fuel money can buy.
The diesel fuel has been tested regularly for quality and is indeed prstine.
The vehicle uses *only* this fuel as we have our own diesel fuel tank equipped with a 2 micron desiccant breather, 1 micron beta 2000 fuel filter.

Continuing.......
George Morrison

This is gonna be good............


Keep us up to speed...........





Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifNYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

This is almost as good as if you could give a ticket back to a cop when they pull you over.

George - are you sure they didn't pee in your cup when your back was turned. That would raise the density and viscosity, and if it was Oly or Coors light, it would be clear.

I just received a call from our local Chevrolet dealer service manager here in Columbus, Ohio relating that our GM diesel truck's running problems were due to "BAD FUEL"!

George Morrison, STLE CLS
AV Lubricants Inc.
Columbus, Ohio
614-492-2000



I still don't know what the "running problems" were. George, could you explain? SPICER

The "running problems" were failure to start..
Had to be towed to Bob McDorman Chevrolet. Of course when the truck got there it immediately started and showed no codes...

BP rep and I had a long discussion today and he confirmed that BP Diesel Supreme would in fact register an easy 39 to 40, thus far beyond allowablew "limits" for GM.
BP will be having discussions with GM on these limits and how they relate to fuel quality, or lack thereof as it relates to diesel fuel.
Apparently GM is using the 35 limit as a quick and dirty gasoline contamination warranty reject, and "bad fuel"..
Enter BP Diesel Supreme....

George Morrison

"GM is using the 35 limit as a quick and dirty gasoline contamination warranty reject"


Goerge, do you mean diesel or are they appling gasoline specs to diesel fuel?Edited by: BassinRVer

I think George is saying GM is using the value as a "quick/dirty" indicator if people filled their truck up with gas vice diesel.

Hmmm. BP says great fuel. Cleanest and best. GM says crummy.... Possible slander suit? Court case? GM and BP duking it out?

Like Tony said..... This is gonna be good.

It's them damn green handles I tell you.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif This isn't the first time someone messed up at BPhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

As Tophog indicated, GM is apparently using this method to determine gasoline presence in diesel fuel; mistaken gasoline fillups must be a significant problem for GM. With that consideration, this test is a must for gasoline determination. However, enter BP Diesel Supreme which yields test results somewhat similar to a gasoline/diesel mix. BP Diesel Supreme is a very different form of diesel, having an extremely high cetane number yet yielding a specific gravity much like #1 diesel or #2 diesel with a gasoline mix..
And yes, it will get interesting.. The BP rep was *not* pleased needless to say...
George Morrison

Easier to flick a match into a cup of diesel to check for gasoline. If the fuel catches, its contaminated. The flash point of Gasoline and Diesel are so different you should be able to check that simply enough in a more conventional manner.

I highly doubt OSHA would approve of shop guys flicking matches into cups of diesel fuel (with or without gasoline). I would think even a tiny amount of gasoline contamination should be evident by smell (although OSHA probably wouldn't like that either).

George; When you say BP, is this all BP stations that sell diesel? Or is this a pilot program at select BP stations?


Because if all BP station`s are selling this diesel that you are talking so highly of, then I will pay the premium price for their diesel.


But they still need to change the handles over to the standard colors. I am used to the GREEN handles being diesel, and I would undoubtedly pump gas instead of diesel at some point.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

The following image on Diesel Fuel Specific Gravity Testing was copied from the 2002 Model Year Silverado/Sierra Helms Service Manual, Page 6-3121:


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/46A_Fuel_Test_Manual1.jpg


Looks like one of the following is the case:


1. Your fuel is a little on the high side.


2. An error was made when testing the fuel.


3. The test equipment is out of calibration


In any case, if the tech is using 35 as the limit, he is not following what is in GM's own service manual. He should be using a number in the 40's. I would ask them to explain this discrepancy if nothing else. Also note, they indicate the instrument does not produce "scientifically accurate results".





Good Luck,


AlanEdited by: OC_DMAX

Does GM publish a list of approved diesel fuel vendors?


Bet not, and it sounds like the same story as when motorcycle dealers sell an off-road motorcycle or 4-wheeler and we ask them if they know of any riding areas open to the public. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Where we buy our fuel is our problem just like trying to find a place to ride our brand-new toys is our problem.


Storys posted on this site make it really hard to continue any loyalty to GM. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Guess I should check the sites where the Ford and Dodge guys hang out to see if they have problems like what is posted here.

Good luck George,keep us posted.

Regarding Ford powerstroke problems(1996). No, we do not have ANY fuel related issues with our trucks. You guys should try running veggie fuel and see how the injectors hold up! I'm not posting to beef up my truck over yours, just making statements of fact as i understand them. I can get baby swamp injectors for $800 (all 8) that put out more fuel then my stock injectors. Install is easy, couple hundered for gaskets and specialty tools. I've never heard of a stroker running special fuel filters, just the stock. We do though run bypass oil filters. My turck has 185k with original injectors. Use fuel additive every tank. For $6k we can get a rebuilt stroker. Problems with our injectors is the o-rings get worn causing bypass of oil &amp; fuel that produce black or white smoke. There are many of our truck well over 300k, some have been known to hit 500k+. We do get problems with leaking fuel pumps, high pressure oil pumps but can't say i've experienced more than that on stroker forums and with friends that have strokers. Most of us do mods to beef our engines to max out what they are really designed to do..good luck with your injectors issues.

Regarding Ford powerstroke problems(1996). No, we do not have ANY fuel related issues with our trucks. You guys should try running veggie fuel and see how the injectors hold up! I'm not posting to beef up my truck over yours, just making statements of fact as i understand them. I can get baby swamp injectors for $800 (all 8) that put out more fuel then my stock injectors. Install is easy, couple hundered for gaskets and specialty tools. I've never heard of a stroker running special fuel filters, just the stock. We do though run bypass oil filters. My turck has 185k with original injectors. Use fuel additive every tank. For $6k we can get a rebuilt stroker. Problems with our injectors is the o-rings get worn causing bypass of oil &amp; fuel that produce black or white smoke. There are many of our truck well over 300k, some have been known to hit 500k+. We do get problems with leaking fuel pumps, high pressure oil pumps but can't say I've experienced more than that on stroker forums and with friends that have strokers. Most of us do mods to beef our engines to max out what they are really designed to do..good luck with your injectors issues.


You are comparing apples &amp; oranges. The older Ford PS uses a pump to injector system where each injector is pumped it's fuel individually. Fuel injection is mechanically controlled. GM Duramax uses (as well as the new FD 6.0 PSD) uses a common rail system. Each injector has it's own electronically controlled valve. The pump fills a common rail with high pressure fuel and the computer controllers the fuel timing. Oh by the way there are MANY GM trucks out there with high miles. My 02 has 149K and there are several on this forum in the 300K to 500K.

When testing the API gravity of hydrocarbons it is very important to always correct the readings back to 60 degrees (the API standard) as higher fluid temps will yield a much higher number. While a higher gravity (more of the good stuff) is a good thing in some situations it can have its drawbacks. However 41 IMHO is not at all drastic and IMHO George should rightfully win his battle with his dealership.


Here's a couple of the main drawbacks to running a fuel containing more light ends (The good stuff) or possibly even pumping some gasoline into the tank. I'm sure there are more.


1. A lighter density and less viscious fuel that will also have a thinner lubricating film. Less lubricity.


2. A lighter fuel will produce peak cylinder pressures closer to TDC with a quicker decline in pressure through the combustion event. This would reduce sustained power through the entire stroke and 360 degree firing circle of the combined cylinders.


3. Lighter fluids will release significantly more vapors pre injection which will retard injection timing and result in poorer mileage/usable power.

You all know what's going to happen, the dealer will cave in, George's truck will get fixed and the next guy in the door gets the same repeat "analysis". Lacking the "knowledge" that spews forth from this site like hot lava, the poor guy will be pissed, but have no recourse except to pay the bill and another loyal GM customer gets screwed and turns to the Dark Side never to venture inside a GM dealership again.


The fraud committing dealer does not suffer for he has plenty of "customers" to soak be they diesel owners or Metro owners. Makes no difference to him, every car in for service is an "opportunity" to rip someone off for unnecessary work or maybe even work not performed.


He doesn't hurt himself, but he hurts every other dealer in the GM network. Maybe the dealers should get together and police themselves by rooting out the bad guys.....LOL ha ha ha fat chance of that happening huh!


People say they hate lawyers, but when you need one, you want the meanest bastard lawyer you can find right!


Go get'em George, beat them to a pulp, then write a letter to the BBS, local newspapers and everyone you can think of.......assuming the settlement doesn't require you not to discuss the settlement.


Good Luck!

Question about BP Diesel Supreme... I ran a Google search on 'BP Diesel Supreme' and found a PDF that describes the product. Very interesting read. However, it also says "THIS FUEL IS FOR OFF-ROAD PURPOSES ONLY."


After reading this thread I was thinking I need to find some of this to run, but if it's not for road use I image it'll be hard to find.

BP Diesel Supreme is available in both on and off-highway.
My Diesel Supreme is water crystal clear, highway..
I know the PDS you speak of and it can be a bit confusing...
On and Off are the same fuels only with and without dye..
George Morrison

Hey George, when are you going to chime in on the Air Filter Study thread? 349 posts and none of them say Georgecls next to them? You cannot tell me you find the topic of air filters to be irrelevant?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif My sincerest curiosity, SPICER

Next thing you know, one of the dealership flunkies will go pour a quart of water or gas in George's tank just to make sure the court has a poor samle!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif

This is to bumo back up the page and to ask: "George, what's going on in this situation? Who's saying what".

BP Diesel Supreme is available in both on and off-highway.
My Diesel Supreme is water crystal clear, highway..
I know the PDS you speak of and it can be a bit confusing...
On and Off are the same fuels only with and without dye..
George Morrison


Thanks for the clarrification.


That make complete sense. I couldn't imagine that there'd be any difference except taxed (clear) and untaxed (red).


According to other information it appears to be available in limited markets. Seemed like in most markets BP is selling good old-fashioned #2. Is this expected to change?

What' the BTU rating of BP SUPREME DIESEL FUEL?


After reading this thread it seems like the BP fuel is clean but a little on the weak side? If it has a high gravity then it has less yeild. That equals less MPG. Built in fuel tax?


Can you say BOSTON TEA PARTY? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

After reading this thread it seems like the BP fuel is clean but a little on the weak side? If it has a high gravity then it has less yeild. That equals less MPG. Built in fuel tax?


I've seen around a .75 mpg increase in my fuel mileage in the last 6k miles of use since I had a bulk tank of BP Diesel Supreme installed here at my house. Truck just turned 40k miles, so it should be pretty well broken in & mpg increase shouldn't be related to that.

Diesel Supreme is crystal clear. It will be interesting to see how my fuel filters look the next time I change them.

What' the BTU rating of BP SUPREME DIESEL FUEL?


After reading this thread it seems like the BP fuel is clean but a little on the weak side? If it has a high gravity then it has less yeild. That equals less MPG. Built in fuel tax?


Can you say BOSTON TEA PARTY? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif





Lower API gravity fuels are the weaker. Sounds strange but thats the way it is. If anything they are saying the BP Supreme is on the rich side.

This is a copy from:


Engine Manufacturers Association


Recommended Guideline on Diesel Fuel


Definition:


API Gravity


This is a measure of fuel’s specific gravity or density. While specific gravity has no units, density is defined as mass per unit volume and both are temperature dependent. API gravity is defined as follows.


API gravity of diesel fuel has a profound effect on engine power. As a general rule, there is a 3-5% decrease in the thermal energy content of fuel for every 10 degree increase in API gravity. This decrease in energy content will result in roughly the same percentage decrease in engine power. Use of fuels with higher API gravity will also result in higher fuel consumption (lower mpg). EMA’s recommendation to include a maximum API gravity is based on our understanding of customer needs to maintain engine power, while minimizing fuel consumption.



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<T>
<TR>
<TD width="49%">Property</TD>
<TD width="20%">
Test
Method</TD>
<TD width="15%">
FQP-1A
EMA
#1 DF(1)</TD>
<TD width="15%">
FQP-1A
EMA
#2 DF(1)</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=7 width=546 border=1><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="49%">API Gravity, max.</TD>
<TD width="20%">D 287</TD>
<TD width="15%">
43</TD>
<TD width="15%">
39</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>








I based my statement off of this chart posted earlyer in this thread. So now I am totally http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif.


I am still curious as to why BP fuel reads on the high side? Isn't a reading in the 40-43 range #1(cut with Kerosene)

This is a copy from:


Engine Manufacturers Association


Recommended Guideline on Diesel Fuel


Definition:


API Gravity


This is a measure of fuel’s specific gravity or density. While specific gravity has no units, density is defined as mass per unit volume and both are temperature dependent. API gravity is defined as follows.


API gravity of diesel fuel has a profound effect on engine power. As a general rule, there is a 3-5% decrease in the thermal energy content of fuel for every 10 degree increase in API gravity. This decrease in energy content will result in roughly the same percentage decrease in engine power. Use of fuels with higher API gravity will also result in higher fuel consumption (lower mpg). EMA’s recommendation to include a maximum API gravity is based on our understanding of customer needs to maintain engine power, while minimizing fuel consumption.



<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=7 width=546 border=1><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="49%">Property</TD>
<TD width="20%">
Test
Method</TD>
<TD width="15%">
FQP-1A
EMA
#1 DF(1)</TD>
<TD width="15%">
FQP-1A
EMA
#2 DF(1)</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE>



<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=7 width=546 border=1><T><T>
<T>
<TR>
<TD width="49%">API Gravity, max.</TD>
<TD width="20%">D 287</TD>
<TD width="15%">
43</TD>
<TD width="15%">
39</TD></TR></T></T></T></TABLE>








I based my statement off of this chart posted earlyer in this thread. So now I am totally http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif.


I am still curious as to why BP fuel reads on the high side? Isn't a reading in the 40-43 range #1(cut with Kerosene)





A higher gravity fuel such as gasoline is more combustable but will release less thermal energy per volume. To better explain it a cup of diesel will release more thermal energy than a cup of gas even with the gas being more voilatile with a higher gravity.

According to my "Pocket Ref - Third Edition":


Fuel Comparisons


Fuel Type Million BTU/gallon


#1 Fuel Oil 0.1391


#2 Fuel Oil 0.1426


Heating Oil 0.1342


Kerosene 0.1308


I always thought "heating oil" was #4, but that can't be so - because #4 fuel oil is listed at 0.1472/gallon. I guess heating oil must be somewhere between kero and #1 fuel oil?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Someone once told me that the diesel in trains was referred to as #3 Diesel. And I was told it is just about cleaned up crude oil. A little off subject but I thought it was interesting.

Current Status of "end all, be all"..
BP requested that I forward samples of my fuel to their lab for confirmation testing of the Diesel Supreme. Which I did earlier this week.
They will be running the gamut on the fuel to confirm its lubricity, etc..

Re Diesel Supreme's low density.. Diesel Supreme is rather a different diesel fuel in that it goes through a completely different refining stream than regular #2.
Along with its crystal clear, it has very, very low aromatic content. And as I indicated, cetane index is generally in the 50+ region.
And yes, my fleet mileage is measurably better with Diesel Supreme than with regular #2 diesel.
And BP feels so confident in the performance of Supreme that BP guarantees, in writing, fuel pumps for 8 years or 300,000 miles and fuel injectors for 5 years, 200,000 miles.
This program is only available for vehicles using BP Diesel Supreme exclusively (obviously must have your own tank) and are either a farmer or business user of BP. Additionally, the units
must be registered with BP. I meet all the above and did all of the above..
Just as an insurance policy....

Ongoing......
George Morrison

George, what is the shelf life of this BP diesel supreme? If one were to have an new tank put in (500 Gallon) and went through about 30-40 gallon per week, would you need to add something to the fuel to preserve it?

The shelf life is quite long as the tank/fuel is protected from moisture, contaminants..
I use a 2 micron desiccant breather which keeps the fuel dry, clean..
That is key. No preservatives are needed.
Noting your location, you do have BP distributors in your area who have Supreme highway year round..
George Morrison

Hmmh, I have been running fuel from Southwest Landmark through my truck mostly. I never considered contacting BP and going with their preimum fuel. Perhaps its time for a phone call.


I generally have my 300 gallon tank filed every 5-6 weeks.

How do I find a BP station that sells premium diesel in my area? I have looked on the BP site but am unable to locate this info.


JP

BP Diesel Supreme is only available in Ohio and then at very few stations. South Bloomfield, Oh, Cambridge, Ohio and a few other stations..
The VW TDI club forum has a listing for BP Supreme stations as in the VW TDI the increase in cetane makes a noticeable difference in performance and fuel mileage.
That is the one advantage of having one's own tank...
Not necessarily lower pricing, however, just the conveninece and "knowing" the quality/cleanliness is as good as it can be..
i.e. filtered to 1 micron, desiccant breather to minimize water, etc..
George Morrison

Ooh.....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif





JP

Okay, stupid question time. Of all the states in the union, why Ohio? Does Ohio have a high per-capita diesel population or something?

They will be running the gamut on the fuel to confirm its lubricity, etc..



Since BP's pdf didn't actually give a number on Diesel Supreme's lubricity, I've often wondered how good it really was in that respect. It did say that no additive was needed, though. I don't even know what the unit of measure is for lubricity, & what GM would consider the minimum to be for the Duramax. Anyone?

I do want to thank you, George.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif It was from some of your previous posts that gave me the idea to get my own bulk tank of BP Diesel Supreme. Now I need to order one of those tank breathers!

Without additives the higher the gravity the lower the lubricity. While a fuel may be premium in one area it can also lack in others. Premium fuels are thinner with a reduced film strength between moving parts. On the other hand too low of a gravity will usually lubricate well but will form more deposits during the combustion process. Good ole #2 fuel is the happy medium. Thats why it's prefered for year round use in the South and warmer months up North. The only advantage of #1 as we know it is enhanced flow and starting in cold weather due to better cold weather vaporization directly correlating to the flash point. Other than that regular #2 will provide a broader spectrum of benefits and economy. Additives is also a plus. Just filter it well and keep it dry and drive on. Just my .02 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Okay, stupid question time. Of all the states in the union, why Ohio? Does Ohio have a high per-capita diesel population or something?


I think because Ohio is where their engineering is located. Or maybe cause we are special! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif


They also have several pilot plants located in Toledo and Lima. And they are still doing remediation in their No.1 refinery here in Cleveland. Oh yeah, this is where it all started.... (Standard Oil) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

It has been interesting watchting the way this thread has unfolded. Initially the specific gravity test performed by GM was thought to be just a simple way to weasle out of warranty work.


Then it was thought that GM might actually be testing for something such as dirt,water, gasolene or what not.


Now it it is down to lubriciaty. BP removes so many of the light aromatics, that it produces an exceptionally clean fuel, however possibly a little on the unlubricated side?


BP is conducting it's own inhouse fuel test on the sample GMorrison sent to them. It will be interesting to see what they say about there own fuels lubricaty?


This in when a independant testing labratorie would come in very handy. We currently test our fuel for cleanliness and water but does any one test it for lubricaty? We get our oil tested for dirt,soot and what not. We even have started testing our air filters for there effectiviness. How can we test diesel fuel and diesel fuel additives for lubricity on an independant level?

BP Diesel Supreme goes beyond the simple correlation of density and llubricity. BP Supreme is also additized to the hilt, providing superb lubricity along with extraordinary cold flow numbers, Cetane, etc..
This is NOT your father's #2 diesel fuel.
BP will be running both lubricity tests; hopefully I am shared the numbers...
And again, BP feels so strongly in Supreme's qualities that they have guaranteed all of my pumps and injectors for years and many hundreds of thousands of miles beyond GM's warranty.. Quite a statement for an oil company.
To reiterate: starting at 10 below zero produces NO white smoke and instantaneous starting.
Fuel mileage has increased on the order of 5% for my fleet.
Etc. etc..
And I have this wonderful guarantee.... And a fuel pump that needs replaced...
George Morrison

I just purchased some BP Diesel Supreme here in Minnesota or at least that's what the pump was labeled and is was clear with a very slight greeninsh tint to it. Not like the thick green stuff I'm used to purchasing.

BP
This is NOT your father's #2 diesel fuel.

George Morrison


It is my father #2 diesel fuel, he was one of the petrochemical engineers that designed the refinery. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Okay, he retired 7 years ago so maybe not......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Just a bump to get this thread back on the first page and ask George if there have been any new developments.

What's happening George?

What's happening George?


http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Question.gif http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

GM are a bunch of weasels......

"Looks like a very happy ending!" Just received a call from my local Chevrolet dealer advising that GM is going to stand behind warranty and replace the pump, irrespective of the fuel issue..
There were no raised voices, no gnashing of teeth, no lawyers, etc.. Some balls got dropped along the way, unfortunately, resulting in the truck sitting for 3 weeks but moving forward now..
The fuel issue is still in process. At BP's request, I sent a sample of my diesel fuel to their lab for confirmation testing (lubricity, that it was indeed BP Diesel Supreme, etc.) and test results confirmed the fuel passing all tests, including GM's. As of yesterday BP was in discussion with the GM counterpart regarding the "no go" test being used for fuel quality determination and its inaplicability relative to BP Diesel Supreme..
So, glad to report that dialogue is taking place to hopefully eliminate issues for owners using BP Diesel Supreme in their engines... Will keep all updated on that progress.
Moreover, the issue of fuel quality is moot at this point, for me, with warranty proceeding!
George Morrison

George thanks for the update.


You know most of us do not have access to BP supreme diesel. Do you have a second favorite that is available on a more national level?

Thanks George! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Re: good fuel, nationally. The best of the tests have been with Flying J.
Some of the Flying J nearly as good as Diesel Supreme, altho not consistent..
Constently good, however..
George Morrison

Thanks George! http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif I like it when a plan comes together

I just purchased some BP Diesel Supreme here in Minnesota or at least that's what the pump was labeled and is was clear with a very slight greeninsh tint to it. Not like the thick green stuff I'm used to purchasing.





Same here but purchased BP Supreme on I-35 south of DeMoines, Iowa. I was pulling at the time and didnt really notice a huge difference in performance or MPG. Also had about 5 gallons of #2 still in the tank.





MOST of my fill ups are at Flying J, all the ones I have been to say Conoco on their fuel pumps. Edited by: HD-Nate

Good news on your fuel pump and GM honoring the warranty. Keep us informed as to the result of the meetings of minds between GM and BP.


You have a PM.

Interesting reading. I've been using Amoco Premier Diesel for most of my fills. I've read some very good stuff about it. My neighbor who owns the station says its Premium Diesel. The Amoco product sheet claims the following:


Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel
Premier starts as a premium fuel right out of the refinery. There, our engineers select and blend premium quality base stocks, keeping Amoco Premier separate from other fuels every step of the process from the refinery to the tank. Then, to make it even better, we add our exclusive Guardian additive package. Furthermore, Amoco Premier LS meets or exceeds all of the Engine Manufacturers Association recommendations for diesel fuel that is "superior in quality." While most ordinary No.2 diesel fuels are typically blended to meet a cetane of 40 to 45, Amoco Premier provides a minimum 50 cetane number.

Available at selected terminals in IA, IL, IN, MI, and WI. Available in Low Sulfur, Low Sulfur Dyed and High Sulfur. In select terminals, Amoco Premier LS is available with a winterized additive for improved low-temperature performance.
Product Info: Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel LS.pdf (http://www.bpdirect.com/pdfs/Amoco_Premier_Diesel_Fuel_LS.pdf); Amoco Premier Diesel Fuel LS Winter.pdf (http://www.bpdirect.com/pdfs/Amoco_Premier_Diesel_Fuel_LS_Winter.pdf); Amoco Premier Diesel HS Off Road.pdf (http://www.bpdirect.com/pdfs/Amoco_Premier_Diesel_HS_Off_Road.pdf)

Typical add hype. Doesn't say much about the product other than minimum cetane rating.

I find all the talk about enough lubricity in the diesel to protect the pump very interesting. If the pump is simply a plunger type as all the diagrams we have seen so far indicate all it needs is clean fuel and not be allowed to cavitate. Now before you guys get your shorts in a knot I will explain. My #1 son is the ME that designed, installed and oversees the operation of 46,000 PSI water cutters. The HP pumps are plunger (no rings) type and are pre-charged. (like in Duramax) They pump straight, softened water filtered to 1 micron. They get good hours from them (don't know what that means) if the pump is not allowed to cavitate. He said the prime pump has failed and in a matter of seconds it destroyed the ends of the plungers. He said all the parts are super hard. I think there are a few dealerships around the country that think they are making points with GM by saving them money by refusing warranty work. I asked the my local Tech that does all the diesel work what he knows about this test. He knew about it, has the equipment and said he doesn't use it. He can tell if a diesel has gas in it. This dealership doesn't care. They repair everything under warranty. I will never buy from another dealer no matter how much can be saved. Later! Frank