Hello to all looking for cooling improvements. I would like to mod my truck. Here in the desert, I am convinced that something should be done for the trucks longevity and heat is the enemy.


1. Putting a larger cooler in the same location will cool the tranny better, the good news.


The bad news:


2. It will also lower the efficiency of the already struggling AC condenser (115 degrees here.)


3. It will cause the fan clutch to engage more often and the fan will stay on longer, not fun. it sucks now, I can't fathom more engagement.


4. It will/may increase the temp of the engine compartment, where intake air temp will increase.


5. a larger cooler requires more flow (for max effectiveness). The question is, will the existing lines underutilize a larger cooler? The lines and connections are the majority of flow resistance from what I have seen. Larger (straight) lines minimizing fitting restrictions and bends may be an essential consideration in the success of this mod. The existing lines, if you look closely, are not very efficient inhydraulic terms, my area of knowledge. First thought is stainless steel braided lines, 3/4".


If I interpret the cooling stack correctly, the tranny cooler is spaced a few inches in front of the condenser, and the fan probably has minimal impact trying to enhance heat transfer from that small cooler, though I am uncertain on this critical point.


My idea: I am an engineer, I am seriously thinking of engineering a new larger cooler behind the air dam scoop, that will dump it's heat load under the truck, using the natural air flow presented to the air dam scoop, negating all of the tradeoffs above. In fact, relocating the existing cooler will give me better AC, less fan noise and resultant HP loss, lower intake and intercooler air temps, and hopefully, lower tranny temps. It would be a kit with mounts that utilize existing bolts, no drilling required except for the line replacement. It is lower and perhaps subject to more road debris, though a screen would remedy that concern, easily done with the existing fasteners. Just wanted to know what some of you think, and if anyone has tried this. Edited by: masterp2

Hello to all looking for cooling improvements. I would like to mod my truck. Here in the desert, I am convinced that something should be done for the trucks longevity and heat is the enemy.


1. Putting a larger cooler in the same location will cool the tranny better, the good news.


The bad news:


2. It will also lower the efficiency of the already struggling AC condenser (115 degrees here.)


3. It will cause the fan clutch to engage more often and the fan will stay on longer, not fun. it sucks now, I can't fathom more engagement.


4. It will/may increase the temp of the engine compartment, where intake air temp will increase.


5. a larger cooler requires more flow (for max effectiveness). The question is, will the existing lines underutilize a larger cooler? The lines and connections are the majority of flow resistance from what I have seen. Larger (straight) lines minimizing fitting restrictions and bends may be an essential consideration in the success of this mod. The existing lines, if you look closely, are not very efficient inhydraulic terms, my area of expertise. First thought is stainless steel braided lines, 3/4".


If I interpret the cooling stack correctly, the tranny cooler is spaced a few inches in front of the condenser, and the fan probably has minimal impact trying to enhance heat transfer from that small cooler, though I am uncertain on this critical point.


My idea: I am an engineer, I am seriously thinking of engineering a new larger cooler behind the air dam scoop, that will dump it's heat load under the truck, using the natural air flow presented to the air dam scoop, negating all of the tradeoffs above. In fact, relocating the existing cooler will give me better AC, less fan noise and resultant HP loss, lower intake and intercooler air temps, and hopefully, lower tranny temps. It would be a kit with mounts that utilize existing bolts, no drilling required except for the line replacement. It is lower and perhaps subject to more road debris, though a screen would remedy that concern, easily done with the existing fasteners. Just wanted to know what some of you think, and if anyone has tried this.





IMHO, there was no change to items 2, 3, and 4 in my truck with the addition of the Mike L cooler. I do have an SPA gauge air temp probe to monitor under hood temps.


Certainly relocating the cooler isn't a bad thing, and I encourage you to pursue that. However I think Mike is just trying to offer something that was a very simple bolt in kit.

I dont know of any airdam scoop? You mean just behind the airdam?


Maybe one of those B&M(I think they make one) frame rail coolers? A majority aluminum hardline(with some flexy peices so you dont stress crack some rigid mount aluminum line)


Or just buy Mike's cooler.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I realy dont think underhood temps will be increased by much but I duno.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I think I got the best idea though and this came to me while sipping on a barley pop so watch out! Get a cooler full of ice in the bed(or tool box in my case) and run some alminum line around in a nice icewater bath with a pump and out to and around the cooler and anything else you want to cool. The main question/problem is how long will it take for all the ice to melt and the water to get to a point were the cans or if your realy good the mini keg reaches a point were the beer becomes undrinkable?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


And OT but I know open containers are illegal in the passanger compartment but is a tapper mounted to the dash considered an open container if the keg is in the back?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif very good. I call it a scoop. In the air dam is a removable black shroud. The opening left is 3x20.





Trippin, do you haul in the heat? Saugus is where?


Mike has a great idea, but if I can get some heat away from the stack, I KNOW that fan clutch will get a rest, as well as my sanity. Evertime I see the tranny temp approach 190, on comes the fan, and that's empty driving around town and even highway sometimes, that's crazy.

you mean behind the bumper getting air from the 2 holes in the bumper?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/EAD_slot.png No,


between the hooksEdited by: masterp2

My plastic peice is solid. I gotcha nowhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

hmmm, that's not good. Is that in all 03's?

all the ones I have seen.

Trippin, do you haul in the heat? Saugus is where?





Saugus is in the Santa Clarita Valley. Approx. 45 mins north of Los Angeles, without traffic. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Zip code 91350 if you want to compare using weather.com


Summer here is always mid 90's to mid 100's. Although we are in a cooling trend right now, it's only 90 today.

Micheal


Don't be discouraged cooler options are feasible .


But if you use some of my ideas pictured here


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/951_GMC2.jpg





I'll be looking for a piece of the action. Otherwise I'll be looking for mine at a get together,dyno run or someones yard under there hood in their driveway to five finger discount.





Mac http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Mackin

That's called a "test bed" mac.


I have ordered a very specific cooler that should do well in the intended application. I won't have it for a week, but I am looking forward to doing this before the hot weather heads south yet again. I am interested in doing some before/after measurements on factors other than tranny temp. I'll try to be scientific and do controlled trials.


I'll have to come up with alternate locations for the cooler in trucks without the noted slot. I am told that this cooler is so efficient that direct airflow may not be required. So i may even frame mount it in one test


I am so looking forward to removing the stock cooler so more cooling can get to the condenser, and less fan actuation...

masterp2


I think you have a good idea as far as mounting another cooler somewhere else. Joe Webb and I talked about that. Problem is; are you going to send tooling, extra lines, directions to do this? What will be the final cost after all this? Who will do it? I think it's a mistake taking airflow from the cooler because below 35 mph, you have no airflow. It would take a heat sink of considerable size to accomplish this. One more thing; ( and I mean no disrespect towards you) you said you were an engineer. Isn't it because of hindsight by your profession that we in the aftermarket are constantly fixing things that looked good on paper to you and failed misserably in real life? It's engineers that decided that the Allison would work better at a constant 250 psi, even at idle creating heat. Why didn't you engineers install a force motor that was regulated by throttle demand? You could have cut the heat by a large margin. You guys put money into a TCM that is far too complicated and never shifts the same way twice. That TCM imho plus the poor engineering in the converter and the constant 250 psi unregulated pressure is causing the heat. The engineers designed the front stack of coolers along with the clutch fan that at times gets overworked, but they ran out of room for the missengineered high pressure, hot running Allison cooler DUH. Excuse me if I am not impressed with an automotive engineer; they make my life misserable.


I am not accusing you of being an automotive engineer; heck, you might be one of the good guys that built our freeways that calapsed in the earthquake, or one of the guys that didn't think a sink hole under a public street was anything to worry about till a car fell in.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

It's a pretty high horse we ride, is it?

Mike


"Excuse me if I am not impressed with an automotive engineer; they make my life misserable."


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif


Sounds like job security to me.


Being an engineer (by education) tends to be a stigma. Thank you for reminding me of that. I guess I should be thankful that you don't blame me for the WTC collapse, after all, engineers designed it, never figuring it could still stand for an hour after a 757 drove right through it, so that 10,000 people could live.


For me, being an engineer just means that I have a better idea of how everything works in the physical world, and a knack for identifying problems and solving them. Actually, i get off on doing what other people don't. I am not employed as an engineer, and frankly have hated the engineering jobs I have had, including aerospace, mostly because they require you to look at 3 tubes, 8 hours a day, with mushrooms growing next to you, heck i don't even like engineers. I much prefer my office at 35,000 ft.


I built my own pool a few years ago, not because I wanted to save $30,000, but because I wanted to do what others told me was impossible, build a no-maintenance, self-cleaning project that ran on $7/month inclusive of elec. and chemicals, instead of the usual $40-50. I pulled out the stops and did it, then I was paid a fee by the in-floor cleaning head company that provided the cleaning heads for my job, to share my design with them, as they had never been able to accomplish what I had with so little horsepower.


One thing is for sure, before I set out to do it, I knew nothing about pool building, and with this cooling concept, i am at a toddler stage. i don't know for sure if this will be good, great or a flop. But unless I was pretty sure it was going to be great, I wouldn't be doing it. I am always trying to find the piece of the puzzle that I may be forgetting, to save on the iterative process. You have forgotten more about the allison, than I have learned so far, acknowledged. Your posts have been very informative, I've read them all. If it weren't for people with your talent, this BB would just be another booring and misleading place to learn.


Answering your other questions, I don't know how far I will take this, many questions to be answered as you know. Really depends on the response. I have a couple of volunteers for test beds, and we'll go from there.


My assessment so far:


1.) Boundary layer (insulative) formation must be avoided, so if a larger cooler (more stacked plates as an example) is used, then higher flow requirements may exist.


2.) I'd love to just adapt to the existing lines, but this may defeat flow requirements with extra restriction. The reality is that larger lines might greatly increase flow and hence efficiency. Since it is a relocation project with hard lines, they have to be replaced. 3/4" and AN-12 fittings should be suitably upsized from the existing.


3.) The cooler I have chosen is a 2 pass version manufactured by setrab, a full 2" thick, 6x16, and 4 times the volume of the stock cooler. It promises low restriction, massive heat transfer capability up to 30K BTU, more than anybody can create in the allison IMO, and enough that it will still be very effective without forced convection (no air speed).


4.) I was a little worried that too much capability might cause large temp swings, using an oversized cooler with no fan augmentation. I consulted with setrab engineers on this and they don't think that will be a factor. The allison is a big heat sink, with wonderful t

Mike, why do you think the present cooler has no air flow till 35 mph? (Aside from being completely obscured by a GMC logo from the front and a 200 degree condenser on the back.?)


Can anyone tell me what the line connections are at the tranny?

"Can anyone tell me what the line connections are at the tranny?"





Yes expensive as I found out in a pinch. The fittings screw into the transmission that except the T-lines held by a Jiffy Tite (?) fitting.


I can supply part numbers ,heck I have two that cost me $90 bucks on the day before Thanksgiving I drove well over a hundred miles to get,all I needed was the horse shoe style (wire) clip.


You need for exploration send me your address ,I'll send them out.


Don't be discouraged ,people put oil coolers secondary and primary fuel filtering systems on everyday which requires location changes.


Friend of mine was a Engineer ,smartest guy I knew,had no common sense but that Sum B!tch was one smart guy! Even if you find the project "realistic" for only the most that demand the best it will be worth it.


Engineer on!


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I'm not a engineer, just a Rube Goldberg type person who tries to solve problems. As you can see from my signature, I have run a lot of GM diesels, with all the 6.2 and 6.5 versions having cooling problems while towing. I tried everything from extra coolers front and rear of the radiator, additional electric fans, special water cooled coolant cylinders used in racing boats that I put under the vehicle, and all that jazz. The mosts successful thing I found were small compact heavy duty equipment coolers which I mounted directly in my 1/2" plate winch bumper on each side of the winch and bumper mount, facing the oncoming air. I cut an opening in the bumper, welded steel rods across for protection for the coolers, and let the fresh air rush through the cooler and directed it back down at the ground after it ran through. No fan. The cooler on the driver side of the bumper was hooked in pre-radiator cooler, then through the radiator cooler, then back out to the passenger side bumper cooler, then back into the transmission line. I only cooler the transmission fluid because I found that was what was causing the heat, not the engine. Worked extremely well. Was going to do it on the D/A, but it ran so cool no matter what I tow (both engine and trans), I have never needed to add it. Again, a Rube Goldberg type setup, but it was cheap and it worked better than anything I have ever found.

One though.....AN fittings are freaking expensive! If you use many of em the project will get expensive fast! And cost is a factor. Even guys that spend all kinds of money on thier trucks will balk at something that is way up there in price.


Not amny places i could think to stick a cooler and get much airflow that wouldnt get nailed with road trash other than in the factory spot or behind the bumper(that would be out for me personaly since I have all my plow crap in there and it would still puke heat into the engin comparment) Down were you are proposing would work and people could stick another airdam on thier truck or hack some holes....another option would be up under the bed somewere outa direct airflow but with a small fan....but then up goes the cost/complexity.


Dont listen to Mackin, I'm prety sure the dual coolers above and behind the cab have already been patented.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif

Nice input all.


I thought about the plow configuration. But really, is somebody who is plowing need to aftermarket the cooler, it's already COLD, right? Do you keep it on year round?

Plowing puts ALOT of heat into a trans. I would say plowing is harder on a trans then towing down the free way. Also normally when you would be cooling down like driving down the road to the next job you are getting little airflow since you have a 9'6" chuck of steel in front of your grill blocking flow. I've had my little outside air temp saying it was well over 100 degrees in a blizzardhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif(the sensor sits right next to the stock cooler so it shows what the ambinet temp was in that area) Alot of plow trucks run into problem with the motors running hot. The diesel dosnt ahve a problem though and h2o temp stays fine on my truck but the trans temp gets up there. I generally run in T/H mode plowing just because it streches out the shift points so there is ussualy a bit less shifting and it locks the converter much sooner(this helps alot with heat). I dont run with the winter cover while plowing BTW.


Plowing is alot of gear changes, moving at a fairly slow speed, minimal airflow to the coolers, ussualy the converter slipping like hell because you are constantly changing speed with a truck that has 1k#'s in the bed and is pushing a 900+# plow that is pushing a 9'6" wide strip of snow X" deep. She gets hot. Haviong the T/H on though helps a TON. And not driving like a freaking maniac would probably help but the more snow I move the more $ I make.


So in my case I need something that dosnt need airflow, is getting airflow regardless of the plow up front, or has a fan on it.


Mikes cooler dumping hot air into my engin compartment dosnt really bother me for most of what I do. Cooling the trans is my biggest concern. I'm not set for the behind the grill aproach though, maving it from there as long as it dosnt creat other problems would have some other benifits. Always looking for the better mouse trap so to speak.


Edit: I drop my blade after the storm and dont put it on till there is a good chance of it or the first flakes start to fly.Edited by: ratlover

Good Points! Thanks for the info, a good case for the stock location then. Or one behind the air dam with fans. I think another fan in the stack location is not a practical consideration generally, but for this specific application, maybe a good idea. But like you said, you never have any airflow when it is doing the most work, so fans would be a must as a practical mod, with a plow blocking flow. Pricey, but doable. I think i know just the cooler for this, in the same location.


Does plowing throw up anything a mesh screen wouldn't stop?

Michael,


I think someone who is plowing would definitely need an aftermarket cooler, all the forward reverse shifting at slow speeds and no air movement, things heat up quickly. Your cooler would be great.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Trans_Cooler_002.jpg


Here is my front grill on the '04. There are two openings under the grill above the chrome piece. There is a bracket inside that has two (approximately 5/16" holes in it about 12-14" apart) that would be perfect for mounting a cooler or even relocating the OEM one. You can just see it in the pic below (the hood release latch is almost pointing to it). There is an air deflector that could easily be removed or moved to allow air to flow in the two holes in the bumper, over two smaller, free-flowing coolers and down and out the bottom of the truck. The lines are already there if you could flip the cooler over, it might just fit right there with little to no mods and substantially increase the efficiency of the whole stack.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Trans_Cooler_001.jpg


I didn't really look at the lines from the tranny up to the cooler, but there are a lot of bends in them. I don't remember all my head loss equations but it doesn't take much to realize you could gain significant help in flow efficiency there. I originally thought the tranny cooler was closer to the rest of the stack and gains could be made just by moving it forward more, but looking again, it seems like it stands off enough (although more might be one of the easiest fixes available).


I think Mac's experience with his engineer buddy are what gives us a bad rap, smart but no common sense. I know a lot of engineers that are smart AND have common sense; they do exist. Sometimes it takes someone who is not intimately familiar with the project to think outside the box and come up with a better way of doing something instead of 'that's the way we've always done it, it must be right.' Michael, I applaud your efforts.


DennisEdited by: baimpala

Another thought,


How much harder would it be to just move the condensor out of the stack instead of the tranny cooler. It might give enough additional air flow and less load to make the stack operate more efficiently. Any ideas on this?


Dennis

Dennis I loved your comments on common sense, then laughed at the last posthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif. The condensor is massive and extremely airflow sensitive, it really benefits from that 300 HP fan. Put it where?





thanks for the pics and description on the chevy grill area. I will have to look at one.

I was thinking fans on it and moved from were it is.


Plowing dosnt realy kick up stuff in that arear but I can see the air dam being fairly vunerable. Also plow mounts may get in the way on some models(not mine) The holes in the bumper have all my wiring hiding back there but other than that would be a good spot, but then its still putting heat into the engin compartment. One thing though guys who run in the winter could have thier radiator covered and still get full air flow to the cooler and if it was in the bumper holes they could run the winter bumper cover and keep air from it if it did too good of a job.


IMO air dam would be a good place for most of the guys here if they had the holes like you from a cooling standpoint(other than there wouldnt be a fan sucking air but is it needed? Debatable i guess) but IMO its just pretty vunerable down there. Rocks arnt wat worry me......if you hit a dog or something it could tear it up, from personal experience you realy have to whack something big and hard to get to the cooler in the factory spot.


Like i said, maybe a cooler taken the opsite direction, under the bed or on the frame or something with a thermostaicly controled fan? But then goes complexity/cost/reliability? If cost/reliability could be kept in check that would be my choice. Protected and it gets air flow when it needs it regardless of winter cover or outside temp or the like. Leme see if I can find a pic of what kinda damage can be sustained and the factory cooler still function fine. I ended up punting a explorer and a jeep BTW and trashing a hood/grill/bumper. I just ould worry about something else taking out the cooler mounted lower protected by plastic. A wife and a big parking block not paying atention/a box in the road/a small dog? I duno maybe I am just being anal?

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7E7_MVC-005F.JPG


The only reason it got into my hood or grill was the dude had a tire rack on the back. Didnt hit em that hard, airbag didnt deploy. I think the factory bumper is stamped outa tin foilhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif The grill was pushed in and it did bend the bracket the cooler was on and the body shop did replace the cooler/bracket but it still worked fine with no leaks.


Edit: IMO any fender bender is going to waste a cooler in or underneath the bumper, the thing is THIN!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gifEdited by: ratlover

just a few notes. I see that some are worried about flow? What is the line pressure going to the cooler? How much is on the return? (duh) Ok, lets get the heat in moles so that we can have a really close comparriosn between the two. {Mole, the ammount of energy it takes to raise one gram of water one degree} I would check that first before making asumptions. Having a cooler twards the bootom of the airdam is not good. I know these are trucks.... but even GM realized that the airdam was too low for installing a cooler. Try to back off an 8" curb. That little "bounce" could really bend up a cooler tied to the nose.


Michael, I'm sure that you will put a great deal of thought into your design and I hope it works. However, Mike knows what we want and is/will be providing that. He will have a direct bolt on transmisson cooler that does work.... That's what we're after.


I applaud everyone who puts forth an effort to improve these trucks.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Burner

The area I want to use is between the L and R frame of the vehicle, behind the bumper supports. Yes it is more vulverable to some front end wrecks, and I think the cooler would survive fender benders, but I'll look at this closer.

One thing I would never do is to remove the small rubber air dam below the stock transmission cooler. What this does it keep the air from coming into the grille area and right out the bottom of the truck! Remember air will take the path of least resistance so GM spent lots of time testing to keep the air coming in the grille and through the radiators. In some of the design requirements they publish if you remove the air directors to the radiator they will void the warranty. I know we did testing on other trucks and adding the air director between the bumper and radiator was good for dropping temperature 10 degrees. Doesn't sound like a lot but believe me it is. Also if you look at the front end design from 2001 - 2005 GMC and Chevy you will find several variations. The lines are not easy to come by either, they are costly and if you truly look at the routing there is not much room to do anything with them.


"The cooler I have chosen is a 2 pass version manufactured by setrab, a full 2" thick, 6x16, and 4 times the volume of the stock cooler"


The major problem with a two pass cooler is that the fluid travels twice the distance through the cooler and as the fluid cools the resistance increases, any plugging that occurs and you loose twice as much capacity as well as having a larger pressure drop across the cooler as you do in a single pass cooler of the same size. I note you listed the outside as being 2" thick but what is the internal size of the passages? Assuming your 6 x 16 is 6" in height and 16" wide double pass means the cooling in 3" x 16" then flow reversed back to 3" x 16". You seem to have left out the cross heating affects of this type cooler so I doubt that 4 times the volume means much of anything as only half of it is cooling the hottest fluid here.


"I was a little worried that too much capability might cause large temp swings, using an over sized cooler with no fan augmentation. I consulted with setrab engineers on this and they don't think that will be a factor. The allison is a big heat sink, with wonderful thermal momentum. "


You seem to be worried about capacity more than flow, when the fluid is cold it's hardest to move, and using a double pass cooler along with large diameter lines reduces velocity of the fluid. If your doing this I would install a cooler bypass for cold operation or you just might smoke a transmission due to the lack of flow in cold weather.

Excellent information. I will address each point, and compare to the stock cooler eventually. Flow is key, and it will flow better than stock or it won't happen, I'll verify the engineering data on it. Anyone have tech specs on the existing cooler?

Tranny experts,


Spoke to someone who said that upsizing lines too much might be a bad thing, because then the cooler would have an excessive pressure drop, it being the primary restriction. Didn't make sense to me. Make sense to anyone else?

more pressure drop across the cooler with the same cooler just by going to large lines? Dont make sense to me?

So just how many BTU's does the OE cooler kick out? Any guess as to what percentage of increase MikeL's cooler creates?





I doubt that it is all that much to worry about. Personally, a simple cooler that bolts in place of the stocker with minimal added air flow impedance would be the simplest and best. Add a thermostatic fan for stop/go traffic. Heck, a fan on the stocker should be enough. Somethink like GM used on the 454 oil coolers...

Dennis,


Did you mean to bring the condenser forward? Put the cooler behind it? Lot of work.


Kennedy, if you were asking me, I would conservatively guess 30% no flow, and maybe 60-80% with air movement. (note, that does not translate to 60-80% lower tranny temp) Just guesstimations based on heat transfer area. Good stuff. I would go higher on the second number if the grill and logo's weren't in the way.


I would also guess a 10-20% AC efficiency reduction, and 20-100% more fan clutch engagement (dependent on load, the harder the tranny works, the higher this number). Just my 1 cent.


Fans are great, but in this case fans shrouds would just impede even more airflow to the remaining stack. Double edge sword.


I'm after simple also. Bypasses are out, fans are out.

I don't know in BTU's but I'll tell you this. There is a solid 20 degree F drop in temps in OEM cooler efficiency .


So unless these coolers reduce more than that what is the point?


Anyone want to challenge that ,I have a OE Deep Pan with bung installed for a 1/8 " NPT temp fitting.


My tranny in T/H day in day out @ 500 HP 1000 Feet LBs of Torque ,flogging will run 198 ish IC gauge reading and 185 Sump.AC on in the humid heated air in the Northeast.


Parked the MagHytec will shed heat nicely but temp rises back quickly once your off and driving.





Nearly Two years of observation.My Suncoast Transmission hasn't hindered heat build up that I've seen.


Anyone who thinks neither of my gauges are accurate ,I've seen both pegged when my converter was frying.


I'm looking,waiting for 180 ish IC reading and lower sump.I am not flaming ,just stating my observations ,so keep your nasty PM's.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


Mac Edited by: Mackin

Flow rate X specific heat of fluid X density X deltaT=BTU transfer Edited by: masterp2

If you look closely, the tranny also flows inside the radiator tank then to the cooler and coolant temp always being 200* isn't helping the trans fluid temp. We need to bypass the cooler lines from the radiator and add a bigger or second tranny cooler....

Tranny experts,


Spoke to someone who said that upsizing lines too much might be a bad thing, because then the cooler would have an excessive pressure drop, it being the primary restriction. Didn't make sense to me. Make sense to anyone else?





Perhaps the results of Boyle's law, where volume and pressure are inversely proportional. So an increased volume results in decreased pressure.

If you look closely, the tranny also flows inside the radiator tank then to the cooler and coolant temp always being 200* isn't helping the trans fluid temp. We need to bypass the cooler lines from the radiator and add a bigger or second tranny cooler....

Actually if you do a bit more looking at those lines you will see the tranny cooler lines are on the <font color="blue">COOL</font> side of the radiator. Not sure what temp that is is, but one would hope it is less than 200, but probably greater than ambient.

Jim

good point....

What type of pump provides the fluid flow? What is the line exit PSI, roughly?


Mackin 20 delta T is not much. Does this system employ recycle cooling, i.e. is it possible that fluid is returned several times for cooling before it is used? Put another way, is the cooling loop designed as one pass, continuous loop, or a resoirvoir system with continuous separate loop cooling?


You can see I don't know much about transmissions, I need a book.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif

From what I have gathered the torque converter is the pump, which means the system would be a closed loop continuous, the torque converter pulls from the reservoir, and sends fluid to the cooler, then back to the res. All correct?

The transmission only sends part of the fluid out to the cooler. The amount that goes out to the cooler will vary depending on what is happen inside the transmission so there is no hard fast number to work with. The pump is a gearotor driven at crankshaft speed with an adjustable regulator for main line pressure, there is also two other pressure regulators for different parts of the transmission, control line and converter pressure. The trim valves work with these pressures to apply the clutch packs for all gears. As you can see it's not near as easy to use engineering numbers to solve this problem, much baseline testing will teach you more than trying to calculate what should or should not be happening. Test Test Test Test then Test some more http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Perhaps the results of Boyle's law, where volume and pressure are inversely proportional. So an increased volume results in decreased pressure.





For Hydraulics, that little gem belongs to Bernoulli. He postulated that Pressure and velocity were inversely proportional. This would be important in applications where we needed to change diammeters of hose (smaller hose creates greater friction loss and greater velocity), or where the cooler would be a constriction point, and we can, theoretically loose pressure due to friction loss to a point where the cooler would more of a hinderance than a help.

Diesel Tech


You have a deep understanding of this problem. A bypass might be a good idea, to obtain the best flow characteristic while maxing ht. transfer capability. How are bypasses typically constructed, temp sensitive valve, or similar idea?

This is getting more complicated than it should be. Fluid comes out of the converter because that's where the heat is created. The fluid then goes to the radiator for partial cooling and safety for cold weather operation. The fluid goes into the auxillery cooler next for final cooling ( this is where we want some big cooling done) and then the fluid coming out of that cooler becomes lube for the main geartrain ( spray). Then it falls into the sump. This is pretty simple to understand. I discussed this with my cooler company and a few other people that I respect and rely on and they like my idea. I thought about airflow and chose the cooler that would give me a 20 deg drop. I could have achieved more , but not without possible consiquenses. Plus, if it doesn't work on Macs truck he will kick my butt. This is a simple cooler upgrade that will do no harm, but it will help alot.


mike

Ray403,


Boyle's Law only works for gasses so it wouldn't really apply here. I can't think of a reason why increasing the line size would be detrimental, though.


Michael,


Seems like total head loss is the ticket. If you increased the line size, that would lower head loss and increase flow. If you increased flow too much, though, you wouldn't give it enough chance to cool down while it is going through the cooler. You need to give it a chance to take advantage of that big heat sink you are adding.


I was just thinking about moving the stock tranny cooler straight (as much as possible, but also forward a little) down and moving the condensor forward, too. Seems like that would aid slow speed cooling to everything and not effect flow while moving. The tranny cooler would fit perfectly behind the two holes in my bumper on either side and just above the license plate frame.


Dennis

just a few notes. I see that some are worried about flow? What is the line pressure going to the cooler? How much is on the return? (duh) Ok, lets get the heat in moles so that we can have a really close comparriosn between the two. {Mole, the ammount of energy it takes to raise one gram of water one degree} I would check that first before making asumptions. Having a cooler twards the bootom of the airdam is not good. I know these are trucks.... but even GM realized that the airdam was too low for installing a cooler. Try to back off an 8" curb. That little "bounce" could really bend up a cooler tied to the nose.


Michael, I'm sure that you will put a great deal of thought into your design and I hope it works. However, Mike knows what we want and is/will be providing that. He will have a direct bolt on transmisson cooler that does work.... That's what we're after.


I applaud everyone who puts forth an effort to improve these trucks.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Burner





Burner,


It's all good, but actually a mole is Avogadro's number of items, that is, 6.022x10^23 items. A mole of Duramax diesels would be 602,200,000,000,000,000,000,000 Duramax diesels.


A calorie (not Calorie referred by nutritionists which is 1000 calories) is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 degree C. If you want it in Joules you need to convert 1 calorie=4.184 Joules.


Took three semesters of Chemisty in College. I hated it so much I remembered it.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif I even still have a book for reference.


I'm waiting to see what Michael comes up with. I think it will be pretty good, too.


Dennis

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/5ZE_coolerht.png

Dennis, now you get the picture. My intent was sarcasm of the complicated nature. Making things over engineered can have drawbacks. It was a two way street. I thought that Michael would get a kick out of my post and tell everyone how audacious those computations would be. On the other hand, I wanted to show everyone (that includes me) how complicated such a simple Item can be. Building a good cooler takes time, effort and education as well as some "hands on" experience.


Michael, the books are available from Allison. You should get all three as well as the transgo. I think you can get them from a fella on this board. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif I do admire your tenacity.


....... Mac, your SunCoast has GREAT advantages over the stock. Stock trannies run hotter than yours... and you know why. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Taken from Setrab STD series. Each curve is a different cooler (width), and the data is generic in the respect that the tubes/plates are spaced evenly, so the numbers are "per unit height". Still not sure how to interpret it, but is it saying that increased mass flow (velocity) = increased ht. transfer?

masterp2


Bet the phone call to Sweden was expensive. Not all the engineers are back from their 4 week holiday. They are just trickling back in. Full production at Setrab should be back to normal in a week.


mike

Oh you got me, I talked to US rep, not overly informative.


BTW, I think you are modifying a 634? that is going to be great. I'll bet you will lower more than 20 (over factory). Have you tried to space it further from the condenser? Do you think it possible to be too un-restrictive, and too fast? That cooler is going to have 300% more x-section to flow.

Dennis, now you get the picture. My intent was sarcasm of the complicated nature. Making things over engineered can have drawbacks. It was a two way street. I thought that Michael would get a kick out of my post and tell everyone how audacious those computations would be. On the other hand, I wanted to show everyone (that includes me) how complicated such a simple Item can be. Building a good cooler takes time, effort and education as well as some "hands on" experience.


Michael, the books are available from Allison. You should get all three as well as the transgo. I think you can get them from a fella on this board. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif I do admire your tenacity.


....... Mac, your SunCoast has GREAT advantages over the stock. Stock trannies run hotter than yours... and you know why. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif





Uh, whoops, I thought you were serioushttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif. See, Mackin's comment was right on. No damn common sense here.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Dennis

Oh you got me, I talked to US rep, not overly informative.


BTW, I think you are modifying a 634? that is going to be great. I'll bet you will lower more than 20 (over factory). Have you tried to space it further from the condenser? Do you think it possible to be too un-restrictive, and too fast? That cooler is going to have 300% more x-section to flow.





I dont think that would be detrimental. If you increase the diammeter which the fluid moves through, then you reduce friction loss, and slow the velocity of the fluid. IMHO, if you have 300% more cooling area, you would have to keep the fluid moving through at 300% more velocity to negate the positive cooling effects.

Diesel Dually


More BTU's are removed with higher velocity, because of the additional mass flow (even though total temp drop will be less). The charted data shows that. But then the tradeoffs.


If 2 coolers side by side of equal "wind" area. One is 5T X 10W (a), the other 10Wx5T (b). b has half the flow area (and twice the velocity for our assumptive purposes). Volume flow through both is the same (same pump). The chart says that b) will provide more efficient cooling, and I assume a bigger temp drop. This makes sense to me. However, in reality, b encounters a higher pressure drop with it's increased velocity, so flow decreases due to higher system total head losses (more restrictive) BUT if line sizing and connections loss is already high compared to this, then this restriction becomes negligible in the system.


compare these 2 charts and note how detrimantal the wrong fitting would be, compared to the cooler sizing question.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/2FZ_pdrop.png


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/C73_pdropconnections.png

I will try to size the cooler to accept 2 L/min/tube, a good compromise on efficiency and flow head loss. 100 sq inches of wind area should be more than enough cooler on a 2" thick cooler. That would provide about 250% more cooling, than the stock. 350% when moved to an unobstructed area. I predict a temperature drop improvements of 55-60 degrees using a 2 pass. Plus the benefits of relocation, AC etc. I'd estimate the price at $375, using soft lines. As an option, this cooler can be remotely located with dual fans for about $150 more. Even remotely located out of the direct windstream, no fans, i believe a 30-40 deg improvement is possible, if only I had access to a big windtunnel.


BTW, the US staff that handles this cooler are at INDY. Everyy Nascar has at least one of these.Edited by: masterp2

masterp2


I am not using the 634. The cooler I am using has about 98 sq in. of cooling area and is 2 inches thick. It has a turbulator and I am not worried about flowing too fast. I don't think you can drop 50 or 60 deg in a hard working Ally. Once the trans hard parts and case heat up it is strictly up to the fluid to bring those temps down, and thats a tuff job. Taking the cooler lines out of the radiator would help if we had plenty of airflow,but below 35 mph we do not. Then we would have to also worry if truck owner was going to be driving in sub freezing temps. I gave a lot of thought to possible warranty issues, climates, and installation. I decided that it must look factory installed and it must drop 20 deg, and absolutely no soft lines. After almost 40 years in this business I have seen too many soft lines fail.


mike

I'd have to reason that the cooler in the tank does FAR more good than harm, as temps in the return tank will be significantly lower than water out temps, ESPECIALLY when the stats are closed.





I think I'll just keep driving mine the way it is and see what develops from all of this....

agree, Mike's wisdom has convinced me that the radiator cooler, is in reality a "heater". i don't believe you get almost any cooling from it. If 200 is coming out of the tranny into a 160 deg radiator......


I think this is the cold weather protection, and some 2 stage cooling. Vehicles without tranny coolers, use the radiator exclusive, you wouldn't even want a temp gauge, just a bank account every 80K?

Water is a far better conductor of heat than air is.


In the winter we in the Cold Places need to keep some heat in the tranny's fluid.


In the summer I can see the benefit of lowering the temps 20 degrees with a more effecient cooler.


Thttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifNY

...if you are comparing air and water of the same temp.


I may have to go get a portable temp sensor.

The temp on the guage is the temp of the sump. Correct me if I'm wrong but the fluid leaving the trans for the cooler is much hotter.


And My h2o temp is always 187-198 via the attitude and verified with my scanner.


Defiantly cant skip the radiator cooler IMO for people that see anything near freezing. I guess you could build a bypass or somemtheing but then up goes the restriction there and the complexity.


While playing with my new snapon scanner last night I noticed intake air temp listed. You could take a look at it durring your testing, also you may be able to move your outside temp sensor around and use that. I am really doubting it will make much of a change by moving coolers or changing coolers or anything like that but I duno? One way to find out I guess, test away and let us know.


I'm going to try (read hell or high water) to get ahold of a laser temp gun deal and zap differnt parts of the trans and the cooler lines this weekend. Might be another thing to look at? Edited by: ratlover

The temp on the guage is the temp of the sump. Correct me if I'm wrong but the fluid leaving the trans for the cooler is much hotter.





correct.


I am going to order an infra red thermometer, HVAC guys use one on lines.


Water temp you show, where is the sensor for that, any idea?

I assume it reads it from the heads or block??? Radiator probably isnt there in that range, had a brain farthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif......I dont know what its temp is appox were the trany cooler is?????? Probably quite a bit under that


EDIT: I will zap that too this weekend for grins.


Further editing: i guess my point is I am betteing the radiator is taking a pretty good sized cut in temp. we shall see though.....I know the line going back into the trans on a stock set up is in the piss warm to beer thats been in someones hand for too long on a hot summer day temp range. Thats as scientific as I can get till I get an actual temp readinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gifEdited by: ratlover

I know the line going back into the trans on a stock set up is in the piss warm to beer thats been in someones hand for too long


Recheck that, mike reports not being able to hold it when the gauge reads 200. And if the existing cooler deltas 20-30 deg from 200, you won't be able to. But it will be great to hear your temp readings. Just for standardization, could you report them, fully warmed up, tranny gauge at your observed daily max, AC on? Maybe someone can chime in on abetter scientific set of conditions.

The radiator does more than just preheat fluid, it actually cools it. Below 35 mph most factory air cooler does zip. Some of the smaller stacked plate coolers are very bad without airflow. Most stacked plate coolers are designed to restrict flow till a certain temp is achieved then the plates expand and allow better flow. I don't believe they ever give total full flow. I have tested a lot of Ford transmission coolers and found that the trans temp will get to 180 very fast and slowly get to 210 and stabalize there; they rarely go beyond that. This happens because of the stacked plate design. This also means that a stacked plate cooler can not be blown out or flushed if it fills up with debris from a burned out transmission, it must be replaced.

Did anyone watch the cheesy Allison video that came with there truck? The one thing that stuck in my mind was them warning me not to idle with the truck in gear for two long. So when I am at tranetracks or other long stops I throw the truck into park. I think they said anything over one minute would build to much heat?

Line coming outa the trans will burn ya, without actual numbers though its really hard to tell. What I think is not really hot may be scortching to you or vice versa.

How do you guys vent the cooler so that it drains before removal?

How do you guys vent the cooler so that it drains before removal?


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Can't be done. Put a big pan under it.

How do you guys vent the cooler so that it drains before removal?


It's easy enough to flush by pulling the "from" cooler line right off the tranny when refilling.


============================================


I just want to rub it in,I'm in Duramax Heaven !!!





I'm on a 700 mile cruise in the (Steve Cole powered) Max. I just wrapped up 300 Extreme miles getting 16+ MPG cruise set at 78 with occasional 115 MPH blasts,I'm still scared of my record.I will tell you that accelerating (pushing on the OLE Go peddle) at 100 MPH and this biatch continues to pull and smoke like a freight train is awesome best set up yet on my rig!


Ambient tempos thru the Green Mountain state was 60 power making degrees,sweet.


Tranny Sump temp 150 degrees and IC gauge was 175,now that's what I'm talking about.


I considered pulling over and putting my winter front on! I'm on Stoli Time,so watch it!!


Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: Mackin

Mac


Couple of more snorts and you will be building a fire under the Ally. Did you remember to cover one eye when you looked at the guage? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Nothing worse then a lush on the road preaching tech. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


mike

Mac


Couple of more snorts and you will be building a fire under the Ally. Did you remember to cover one eye when you looked at the guage? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Nothing worse then a lush on the road preaching tech. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


mike











http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I have shifted thinking a little bit and have settled on 2 coolers, one of which is a Setrab. Both are on order and I will be testing both soon enough. The setrab engineering data, does show some conclusive problems, the pressure drop in the equivalent 2 pass unit is 310% more than a single pass unit of the same area, at our required flow rates, while only providing a 5% improvement to heat rejection performance, so I am tossing that out.


The other cooler is an advanced design cooler as well created for the airspace industry as well as is used in F1 and cart cars. Pricey, but I like it better so far as it models with better fluid flow compatability to our trucks. It's design will be a better fitment and will take up less room in front of the condenser than an equivalent performing setrab. The setrab is good for about 550 BTU per sq in, vs 637 BTU per sq in for this cooler, both at 55 mph, using 215 degree dexron. Total heat rejection of 56,000 BTU/hr, with minimal obscuration! These are physical test results, not simulations. Worthy to note, when a given cooler is located in it's present stock location vs. in free air stream, the air pressure differential decreases a lot because of the other stack components hindering evacuation (not to mention our lovely grill), and squashes efficiency to the tune of 20-30%, worse at low speeds, as has been mentioned, at 35 mph there is nearly no airflow (delta P). Relocated, there is plenty.


Also the air that exits the cooler at 55 mph is 45-55 deg hotter than ambient. It is still my position, that GM would be able to make a case to void warranty by virtue of adding heat to an already overworked cooling stack. A cooler that doubles the area of obscuration (presently 55 sq in) and rejects yet more heat into the stack IS reducing the severe conditions operating envelope of the truck as a whole. In fargo, ND, may be a minimal issue, but in phoenix AZ, this cannot be overemphasized, with the reports of LLY stock trucks overheating with no mods.


I still intend to relocate the cooler to the air dam scoop, but for those that remain opposed to this, an in-place swap design is also in progress, using the same cooler. I looked at the chevy up close today when BH IN AZ dropped by, and everything underneath is the same. The air dam could easily be slotted to accomodate airstream in the chevy. The bottom of the cooler will be 16-18" off the ground and completely surrounded by the air dam, with 4-6" of forward clearance to it. It will be flanked left and right, by the frame rails for additional protection.

I am one of the luckier ones who live in a more moderate climate, and have never experienced the Allison even reaching 200 degrees (including towing). What I am looking for is adding efficiency not to the tranny cooler, but to the Intercooler without any loss of performance to the tranny cooler. If you are the first to achieve that, or have the highest quality solution, I will be a customer.


I hope you are successful. I also hope Mike L is successful for those who are looking for simplicity of installation and any other advantages it might offer.


And just for the record. This is a forum where people get together and share information. You should be able to ask any question, and as many questions as you want. If people do not want to answer to protect their own R&amp;D efforts that is there perogative. As you have done, I to would not begin to buy parts and tear apart my truck if the answers were readily available. Once the answers stop coming, is when I pull my tools out and get the answers for myself. Why reinvent the wheel. That is what is so great about the Internet.

I will be sure to put intercooler temps on the list of test data, before/after.

If you buy a scan tool like a tech 2 or a snapon scanner or mater tech or the like it will show you air intake temp. Even used the cheapest option will be over 500 though. Good thing to have though, tells you trany temp and all kindsa other nifty functions.

I have a laser pyrometer, and it will also supply a wealth of information for a relative low cost investment. It's main disadvantage is I can't use it for getting temp readings under load. I have to pull over, pop the hood and take readings. If only the Tech II was cheap enough, I think we would each own one.

Those infared temp guns are nice but I had a hell of a time zaping anything behind the grill. A scanner(I think a used snapon would be the chepaest wroute) will tell you the imortant temp and give it too you while driving, the temp of the air intake. Wich if dropping it is something you are building your cooler for then its pretty much invauluble to know what the actual motor is seeing. Although temp after the intercooler would be even more benificial(I assume your going to need to stick a probe in you outlet of your intercooler if you want to measure it, no other way I can see?) Surface temp of the intercooler may be nice but its not telling us what we really want to know IMO. If you are billing this thing as a way to limit temps the rest of the stack see and lowering temps to the motor and rest of the stack IMO you gota know what the before and after temps of the air leaving the intercooler. But if you are building a cooler to sell and make money off of then all those cool nifty toys that can be used for other things are tax write offs. Get some gauges and a scanner and some other cool widgets and start the process of seeing what a stock truck is doing, then you can see what adding heat or removing heat in front of the stack is doing. Till then its anybodys guesshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


I bought this dude on sale http://www.ai-supply.com/search/ShowItem.asp?ItemCode=MCI+52224 comprable rayatech is way more expensive. a and i sells good stuff.


Edited by: ratlover

"The cooler I have chosen is a 2 pass version manufactured by setrab, a full 2" thick, 6x16, and 4 times the volume of the stock cooler"


The major problem with a two pass cooler is that the fluid travels twice the distance through the cooler and as the fluid cools the resistance increases, any plugging that occurs and you loose twice as much capacity as well as having a larger pressure drop across the cooler as you do in a single pass cooler of the same size. I note you listed the outside as being 2" thick but what is the internal size of the passages? Assuming your 6 x 16 is 6" in height and 16" wide double pass means the cooling in 3" x 16" then flow reversed back to 3" x 16". You seem to have left out the cross heating affects of this type cooler so I doubt that 4 times the volume means much of anything as only half of it is cooling the hottest fluid here.





I have shifted thinking a little bit and have settled on 2 coolers, one of which is a Setrab. Both are on order and I will be testing both soon enough. The setrab engineering data, does show some conclusive problems, the pressure drop in the equivalent 2 pass unit is 310% more than a single pass unit of the same area, at our required flow rates, while only providing a 5% improvement to heat rejection performance, so I am tossing that out.


Worthy to note, when a given cooler is located in it's present stock location vs. in free air stream, the air pressure differential decreases a lot because of the other stack components hindering evacuation (not to mention our lovely grill), and squashes efficiency to the tune of 20-30%, worse at low speeds, as has been mentioned, at 35 mph there is nearly no airflow (delta P). Relocated, there is plenty.





Looks like you finally checked out what I told you before! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif You also want to do some testing on airflow below the grille and it's affects on the cooling system before you make the claims you are now making. If you get out and do some realworld testing I know you will find things are not what they seem.

Thanks for the link ratlover, but


"Accuracy is +/- 20C (40F), or +/- 2% of reading"
You think they mean +/- 2 C?


Steve, the area below is separately compartmented from the cooling stack, separated by a rubber dam which you have pointed out, helps with cooling. Considering the air dam area, effective cooling requires direct airflow(got it) and rear ejection low pressure area. So not sure what you are saying but I'll let you know when/if I figure it out.


Guess you are enjoying this.


Off topic, i stopped in at the GM dealer today to discuss, his thoughts on moving a cooler, as it might help the AC (mine was blowing 55 degrees). He said that they have been putting fans on some coolers, which he said also helped AC. I'd have to think that was low speed only. Of course it is the cheapest solution also, gotta hand it to them.

2 simple radioshack calibrated thermistors will work to measure pre and post CAC temps


All you need to do is use a multimeter on both probes and measure the voltage potential at each one and then use a chart to figure out the actual temperature based on voltage.


2 sensors and 14 ft cable will run you 20.00

masterp2


What is going to pull air through your cooler at idle if you mount it below air dam? I think the engine fan is critical in this equation.

"equation" LOL!


I'm puttin a big honkin straw thru da firewall all da ways to da cooler, so when you gets to see yur tranny meter start a climbin, just give it one big SUCK!


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw Up.gif

Steve, the area below is separately compartmented from the cooling stack, separated by a rubber dam which you have pointed out, helps with cooling. Considering the air dam area, effective cooling requires direct airflow(got it) and rear ejection low pressure area. So not sure what you are saying but I'll let you know when/if I figure it out.


Guess you are enjoying this.








To tell you the truth I am enjoying it. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif When I did all this testing I thought I must be crazy what am I doing this for, but once I got to the end of it, it explained a lot of things that I did not think were related at the time. The pencil and paper will not show you what good old real world testing will. Then you got to try and figure out what all the data means and why. I will give you ahead start.......... take a bunch of small pieces of cloth (1 x 5) and tape to the front end everywhere. Place a video camera on a mount out front and go driving. Then do it again with a Chevy since you have a GMC. Come back and try to figure out why things do as they do. Then make one little small change and do it again.

OK, I give her a shot. But what do I tell my neighbors?

OK, I give her a shot. But what do I tell my neighbors?





If your worried about that might as well quit now while your ahead

I kinda would like to add Micheal's cooler behind the air dam and in series with the factory or MikeL's cooler. The one behind the air dam would greatly reduce the fluid inlet temp to the grill mounted cooler when traveling and some when stopped. And when at idle the air dam cooler would somewhat aid the grill mounted cooler which should at that point be handling most of the cooling. Each cooler would suppliment the other under static or dynamic conditions. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

"equation" LOL!


I'm puttin a big honkin straw thru da firewall all da ways to da cooler, so when you gets to see yur tranny meter start a climbin, just give it one big SUCK!





" tranny meter " words of a true engineer. My " tranny meter " shows me less heat than I saw before after testing. I achieved the goal I was after. My cooler is in production and will be available soon. Setrab likes my ideas alot and wants my input on future coolers for high performance diesels. This will not be an easy task considering the reputation of this company. Not bad for a high school graduate. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

As this thread has clearly shown, there's no replacement for hands-on experience.

I kinda would like to add Micheal's cooler behind the air dam and in series with the factory or MikeL's cooler. The one behind the air dam would greatly reduce the fluid inlet temp to the grill mounted cooler when traveling and some when stopped. And when at idle the air dam cooler would somewhat aid the grill mounted cooler which should at that point be handling most of the cooling. Each cooler would suppliment the other under static or dynamic conditions. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I thought of that and it will work great, but that was not my objective. I discussed frame mounted coolers ( with a fan) with Joe Webb at Suncoast and we both agreed it was agreed idea. Problem is, who is going to mount it properly? There would be soft lines involved ( hoses). There would be tube bending and fabrication with 5/8 inch lines. I want no part of that. A soft line will never be on my truck ( except for the 2 lines already there from factory). This needs to be simple and effective, period. Could I have done better? Yes, but not without effecting another component. If you need more than a 20 deg drop in temps, I will help and show you how to do it. Be prepared for some headaches and a lot of work.


mike


mi

I kinda would like to add Micheal's cooler behind the air dam and in series with the factory or MikeL's cooler. The one behind the air dam would greatly reduce the fluid inlet temp to the grill mounted cooler when traveling and some when stopped. And when at idle the air dam cooler would somewhat aid the grill mounted cooler which should at that point be handling most of the cooling. Each cooler would suppliment the other under static or dynamic conditions. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I thought of that and it will work great, but that was not my objective. I discussed frame mounted coolers ( with a fan) with Joe Webb at Suncoast and we both agreed it was agreed idea. Problem is, who is going to mount it properly? There would be soft lines involved ( hoses). There would be tube bending and fabrication with 5/8 inch lines. I want no part of that. A soft line will never be on my truck ( except for the 2 lines already there from factory). This needs to be simple and effective, period. Could I have done better? Yes, but not without effecting another component. If you need more than a 20 deg drop in temps, I will help and show you how to do it. Be prepared for some headaches and a lot of work.


mike


mi





Actually I'm not sure right now what will be enough for my application. Towing a 11.5K fifth wheel causes a little fan clutch activity but when I latch on to a trailer full of cattle that fan clutch stays engauged about 1/2 the time. Aggrivating as hell to say the least. I guess it would be best to go the simple route then add as needed. I also like a clean install with hopefully no additional fan.

The add for that gun deal is screwed, it also says its good to 9k degrees, it actually only good for 900. I stuck the end of it in my mouth and pulled the trigger and got 98.5, close enough for me.


Time to get out there and do some testing, dont worry about your neighbors, they couldnt think any worse of you than mine do of mehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Just want to address the idea of series arranged coolers. Also want to address fan enhanced operation of the stock fan.


To add another cooler in series has the uncertainty of what the added resistance will do to the system flow rate, 3rd series cooler. The additional lines, driection change fittings and adapter fittings end up being the big culprit. I really think that would be pure excess anyway. An after market cooler like what is being discussed will reject 200% of the heat of the stock (present location) and supposedly more (IMO) if relocated in free air stream. To be sure, that configuration is a seperate consideration that should be seperately tested for pressure drop. Right now, I am trying to come up with something that does not increase pressure drop.


The stock fan is important, but not so much to the cooling of the allison. You can do an experiment with a piece of extra heavy card stock about 6x6", something with a little weight. Put it up against the condenser, it sticks, up against the cooler, it falls. Most of the fan airflow is going around the cooler, because it is small and because GM spaced it 2-3" in front of the next stack component, which makes it a much more efficient free airstream cooler, working better when moving (and loaded). If it were located right next to the condenser, it would be more efficient when the fan kicks on at idle, but that's not when the tranny needs the cooler most, common sense. The highest heat dissipation requirement occur with fluid shear (forward vehicle motion normally). Also for the guys looking for reverse gear cooling enhancement, the stock fan is just making things worse, and working against ambient air flow.


With the hot condenser, radiator etc right next to the cooler, there are some residual heating effects on the cooler. Located elsewhere, the cooler could perform considerably better, and one with 3X the efficiency could even perform better with no supplemental idle air flow, if located away from heat sources. That is a comparison of 2 coolers in very different conditions.


In my truck the tranny doesn't heat up, just sitting still. Anyone have one that does, LB7 maybe? If it does, is the fan engaged the whole time?


I get a shipment of coolers next week, I'll start with a basic swap experiment and go from there. Relocation would be the 2nd trial.








Edited by: masterp2

I stuck the end of it in my mouth and pulled the trigger





I ordered one also, looks good to me. if you people depress me any more, i can do the same. The repeatabilty of 1% is what's important to me.

My Ally will heat up big time in stop and go traffic with the stock cooler. It gets really bad with the A/C blasting in hot weather. After a while, the fan clutch goes into full pitch and the temps begin to drop a little but not much due to the small factory cooler. Without the engine fan pulling air through the cooler, the heat sink effect would be nill. You can go ahead and mount the cooler anywhere you want, but you must have big time air flowing at idle. You can put a fan in front or behind the cooler, but the fan must be in a position to access big time air to pull through or push through the cooler. Where are you going to do that? All the Allison dealers in LosAngeles are handling this problem with a full blown out coolers the size of a radiator in front. Why? Because that is where you will get your air. If you were going to mount 2 coolers, parallel would be so much more efficient than series. I have done this study allready ( but I didn't use the Xs and theYs with the formulas because that's what got us into this heated mess to begin with).


mike

My Ally will heat up big time in stop and go traffic with the stock cooler. After a while, the fan clutch goes into full pitch and the temps begin to drop a little but not much due to the small factory cooler. Without the engine fan pulling air through the cooler, the heat sink effect would be nill.


I agree, mine does this also in stop/go. Yes the cooler is small, but there is almost no airflow across it either from the fan. The bigger cooler solves this some. But my AC is bad enough now (though it may be addressable with the recent accumulator TSB), so obscuring the condenser solves nothing for me.


This has turned into a circular discussion, though sentiment from this board does suggest the most efficient design (and expensive) would be a larger, relocated, fan augmented cooler.


Anyone have a link to a flow sensor, or mass flow sensor? I need one of those too for testing.

Just cut a big o'le hole in the hood and stick the cooler and fan right there. You could evacuate all that nasty heat under the hood as well as cool off the trans fluid. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Some down and dirty numbers that may surprise you:


At idle, airflow through the cooler when fan clutch is engaged is about 1.4 m/s (3 mph) at the front face of the cooler. That sucks for the stop and go concerns. The cooler is rejecting 25% of the heat it is capable of at 55 mph.


There are only 2 ways to improve airflow. Increase the pressure on the front (drive faster) or reduce the pressure on the back (add fan augmentation). I also noted the airspeed at the condenser is about 3.0 m/s. Hmmm. Experiment time. put cardboard spacers all around the cooler to seal it against the condenser, whala, 2.2 m/s, 50% increase.


Refering to setrabs chart, this represents a gain of 30% heat rejection, at idle, the worst case, using high idle should reap even better gains. (setrab standardizes it's coolers at low flow, 3 m/s=1.0 factor)


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/setrab_correction_factor_chart.png


conclusion: want to modify the existing cooler with nearly no cost for a minimum 30% low speed improvement? Get flexible rubber sheeting 1/8" thick, and make a skirt that surrounds and seals the cooler to the condenser. If you make it so the rubber flairs outward as it approaches the condenser, the velocity increase should be even greater, and when you return to highway speed, it can act as a door that opens. to dump excess pressure. Even a 50% gain may be possible by flaring the rubber dam, but I don't think that is enough for some.


More to come.

damm........... now you're gonn'a make me say it..........














Good post Michael. Keep it up.





I hate when I haft'a do that. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

can anyone look up the specs on this gm part, 25036512?

masterp2


Sorry you didn't like the Transgo book. " Return to sender" Nice tape job on the envelope by the way.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif You are a piece of work.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

I didn't say I didn't like it. But if I were going to, I might tactfully word it in a private message, or maybe even post my opinion in your thread where you are selling them.


However, since you are in scream therapy, decorum exceptions can be made. Once you get all your feelings out, then we can work on tact.


Will you be sending me my Tae-bo and Richard Simmons workout tapes back, my ex-wife keeps hounding me for them?


Edited by: masterp2

I looked at the lines going to the cooler today. They are not mandrel bent, and at the point where they bend 90 degrees to turn up to the cooler, mine are crimped down to around 50%. This may become an issue, where a replacement cooler may also need replacement lines.

That's what I saw also, a larger cooler may not be fully utilized flowwise, when using the factory lines. I have been doing a lot of playing and have made some surprising discoveries.


A fanned cooler is in the works.

I also noticed how the bends flatten the tbg. The flow rate @ the bends of this 5/8" tbg can't be much more than the equal of 1/2". http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Take the kinks out and the entire system might perform as designed?

Have done some measurements, and had very surprising results.


Experiment 2-Air flow Analysis of Stock Cooler


To determine heat exchange airspeed presented at (front face of) stock cooler, with and without GMC grill, and compare to free stream airspeed.


Conducted at 35mph (16 m/s) corrected odometer reading


Airflow Results:


Grill on: 4.0 m/s at cooler front face


Grill off: 4.1 m/s


I'm totally shocked, the grill has little impact on cooling at this speed. What I expected to see was at least 25 mph w/o grill, I had no idea the pressure problem was this big. Total air flow is about 280 cfm thru the cooler at this speed.


A bigger cooler will see the same ill effects, the relatively large static pressure behind the cooler (6 inches of fins in radiator, intercooler, and condenser) are what, IMO, is the biggest detriment to airflow, so like real estate, location, location, location. Turns out that pic of the pickup at the beginning of this thread isn't so funny afterall.


i move my focus to a cooler with fan, thermostatically controlled to automatically maintain between 160 and 180 on the gauge. Some calcs suggest the cooler behind the air dam/bumper will work fine in the chevy, even if the fans die. That would be important. If the fan(s) fail then it should still be functional (less than 230 F) to keep out of warranty trouble.Edited by: masterp2

Just a small observation.


All 4 of my computers are watercooled. System consists of a 5 gal bucket of water and water wetter and some anti mould agents. Heat exchanger is by ford heater core out of a superduty .


all processors are AMD Athlon or XP and total processor thermal power exceeds 400watts under full load (which the are 24/7 F@H)


The bigges single decrease intemps i have seen is from 2 distinct areas.


1.Airflow management across core (higher CFM fans) (4 Delta 12V 60mm 40CFM@7300RPM)


2.changing lines from waterblocks from 3/8" to 1/2"


both in conjunction have reduced my water temperature from 25degreesC above ambient to 13C above ambient


Sounds like the same principles can be applied to our coolers. although the line size might be adequate, it looks to be an airflow management issue


BTW 4 comps watercooled running at full crank really heat my garage nicely in subzero temperatures. (garage is partially insulated but not heated.


EDIT.. pump is a MAGDRIVE 250GPM submersible pumpEdited by: Got Juice?

Sure what the heck. A Kestrel 4000 weather analyzer. Displays speed pressure, humidity, wet bulb T, chill factor heat index, etc. A new toy.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/EC5_kestrel4000.png

Here are my side-side test subjects. Earls(L) vs Setrab(R). On first appearance, they seam almost identical in construction, but they are NOT. The Earls was chosen for it's very different heat transfer strategy.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/B85_coolers.png


First, what is similar:


1. Oven brazing technique


2. Aluminum


3. Modular construction using AN fittings


4. Oil Flow resistance, both low


5.. Both quality construction

Setrab fin


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/EC2_finsetrab.png


Earls fin


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/D62_finearls.png


2 very different airflow properties. Earls has 15% more fin surface area (density) with it's s shape and closer spacing, but, when you blow thru each cooler, you can feel your breath on the other side of the earl's cooler, not so with the setrab. Setrab is very efficient at mixing air for heat exchange (see louvered punched design) but this is a double edge sword. The pressure loss across the setrab is 4 times that of the Earls, at 10 m/s. What does this all mean?Edited by: masterp2

It means that you'll be using Earl's cooler. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

Heres the one I've decided on. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/4ZC_fa_1.jpg

What does worse flow through the cooler mean?


You may want to put some syn fluid in there, not watch the gauge, and change it after the facthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif but......have you tried blocking the air and seeing if the cooler pumps much heat into the front of the truck? Or yanking the cooler entirely?


Have you done any testing on making a "skirt" for the cooler? That idea is realy "outa the box"http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif and may be a good solution?

&gt;----&lt;


There is your skirt. It will double the efficiency of the stock cooler, and hurt the rest of the system that depends on the cooling stack.


If you don't follow that diagram, picture a skirt that funnels air to the cooler (increases face pressure and velocity), then evacuates it at the opposite side which tapers away, and provides additional lower pressure from the fan clutch when engaged.


I never saw the "fred scoop" but it probably had the same idea.


I don't follow the rest of your question "blocking the air" would render the whole system inneffective.


Burner,


At first glance it seems that the earls cooler would be a much better cooler in the stock location. The setrab is effective, even moreso than the earls, but you need airflow that the stock location will NEVER be able to provide. It does seem that a fanned setrab, away from the cooling stack area would accomplish so much more. The design I have assembled, in numbers alone would do the work of 4 stock coolers and never allow the tranny over 190, under any condition that wouldn't first destroy another truck component.


I know that is a tall boast, but i believe it, and when the fans arrive, I'll post some tests.


Yes I tested the removal of the stock cooler to another location. I did this only to verify the merit of relocation. My AC vent temps dropped 3 degrees (104F day, tranny temp 160, after 35mph drive over 5 miles). I stopped there, because that was enough for me. Knowing a bigger cooler in that location was going to have the opposite impact. Sorry I did not document other numbers. Edited by: masterp2

What does worse flow through the cooler mean?





Another real world experiment using these 2 coolers.


35mph test to determine relative face velocity. Both coolers exposed to free stream (Held it out the window while going 35 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif)


Results:


Earls 21mph


Setrab 16mph


Interpretation, generic and relative: The earls can cool better when not in the free stream, they seem to find homes in indy cars and aircraft, where turbulent streams (away from the free stream) alone supply adequate heat transfer. The Setrab must be exposed to more forceful elements, either mounted where there are no flow obstructions, front or back, or fan augmented.


What has become more clear as I play around, regardless of the cooler selected, the overall best solution for meeting high and low speed demands, is fan augmenation. Properly designed, there is no reason that 160-180 cannot be maintained, this goes for 80 mph in ND in january, or pulling 10K up I-17's 8% on our 114 F summer day with the AC icy cold. Relocation.


Edited by: masterp2

I was just wondering if you tested the skirt approach.


The blocking air flow question was to test to see if there was any benifit to moving it. If you block air flow to it and you dont notice any real drops in temps for the rest of the stack then IMO what benifit do you have in moving it. If you block air flow to it or remove it entirely and you see drops in all the temps then it proves that it is adding considerable heat to the stack. Then I guess its open todebate and more testing if the drop in temps is acutally benifiting.


Is your planned mounting location not in air that is "free air and turbulent free"? is the factory location not "free air and turbulent free"?


Also if you believe fan augmentation is the best why does the setrab cooler not then fit the bill?

I showed the benefit of moving it with the post at the top of this page, ac efficiency. But I didn't have to remove it to know that it would benefit the things you mention. If you put your head in the oven, it doesn't take much understanding to know right away what the cure is. I Just wanted to see if the result was measurable (as opposed to insignificant).


The skirt approach begs the question, expanding on this argument: If I make the cooler work better, won't I just be moving in the wrong direction with things like AC? Sure it will help the trans, but i am after other things as well, and I want the change that will "kill 3 birds with one stone" rather than "sweeping the problem into someone else's department" approach. This is starting to sound like esop's fable.


Still for little investment, it may be a very good idea for highway hauling in northern US locations.


For racers, rock crawlers, plow operators, desert dwellers, etc it would be of little value I think, because of the mentioned tradeoffs, and because I really don't think it will provide what a lot of folks need. If trying to get away from 230-240F, that represents a LOT of BTU's to dump.


I don't know what you are quoting, but I don't think it's me. The stock location is not free stream. The pickup pic on page 1 is. The stack location is a very poor place to put another device that needs good airflow, but we've covered that already. The 6 inches of fins behind the cooler, on top of it's own pressure drop over 2 inches, sitting in back of an obscuring grill, underutilize the heat exchange capabilities of such efficient coolers. On a windy day, stand up against your house, the side the wind is blowing on. You won't feel it, it's not there. The radiator, evaporator, and intercooler, stacked, are a brick wall


trying to improve on the stock location, is like pissing in the water to warm up the bath.


Also, I DO think the fanned setrab IS the ticket, i am building one. I don't think anything else will be better for "overall" cooling performance. Mounted 8" behind the bumber in the dam scoop area is my plan. In hot locations, there should be benefit in removing the scoop cover, should provide extra flow. Leave it on in cold areas, chevy's with no scoop should be just fine as well.

Mas


I ran a Earls on my street rod that was mounted under the running board and had no fan an it done a fantastic job, as far as I am concerened it is a quality cooler. If possible check out a Indy car they run Earls


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Pulled over to gas up today, a ram 3500 cummins next to me (a woman glued to her cell phone)


Took a look at that front end, WOW, some serious acreage devoted to heat exchange, a 15 sq ft condenser, nothing in front of it, my kind of AC. I had to work hard on my back to find the trans cooler, sandwiched at the very bottom, about 4x20x3/4

I Just wanted to see if the result was measurable (as opposed to insignificant).





Thats what I was curious about, I agree that the cooler dumps heat into everything behind it and also hinders flow a bit but does it really matter? Thats what I was wondering about.


I dont think the free stream stuff was a direct quote but you were making mention of it.

Another real world experiment using these 2 coolers.


35mph test to determine relative face velocity. Both coolers exposed to free stream (Held it out the window while going 35 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif)


Results:


Earls 21mph


Setrab 16mph


Might want to do that test numerous times to negate environmental wind adding or subtracting to the result. Also, unless you're real careful, the test vehicle probably had some aerodynamic influence.

I am ready to test the final product:


1. Independently operated dual fans, each thermostatically controlled by inlet fluid temperature, fan 1 on at 160 F, fan 2 at 180.


2. New lines and fittings, AN-10 and -12, resized for more efficient fluid flow, and cooler pressure spike protection. No cutting lines, all factory parts can be restored


3. Test article rejected over 24,000 BTU/hr, over 300% of the stock cooler capacity. Test conducted with 215 F inlet temp and 600 cfm, resulted in 137 degree exit temp, yes a 75 degree drop flowing 1.5 gal/min. (stock cooler is around 20 degree drop).


4. AC benefit of 4-6 degree lower vent temperatures compared to same cooler mounted in factory location.


5. Lower EGT benefit to be determined (lower intercooler temps).


6. Fan clutch engagement benefit to be determined.


7. Increased radiator efficiency


8. manual operation over cooling possible with cockpit switch.


9. designed to work to keep trans temps between 150 and 180, alaska or arizona, snow plow or 10K trailer, an all conditions solutions.


Editing: the ambient temp was 90, exiting at 130 FEdited by: masterp2

4-6 degree cooler AC temps? Heck I dont have a problem with tranny temp, but I would do that mod for the AC temps alone.

Ya me to. Been thinking about researching a electric fan for the cooling system to get rid of the loud fan. It louder than a cummins when it comes on.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Great work Michael......http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif Keep it comming. I know your onto something good.

Where did the 215 deg come from? Not the trans. What is spike pressure in a cooler? I never heard of it and neither has any good transmission tech. I have baselines on the Ally cooler pressure in every gear and it changes a lot. The Ally stock cooler lines are not restrictive at all, especially at the variable pressures they run, and cooler pressure cannot spike. Your one and a half gallon flow is at the limit of good cooling, anything faster defeats the whole purpose. I chose to test on a real Duramax instead of a bucket with hoses.( sorry, forgot about your twin fans). I could tell you a whole lot more about how cooling effects a Duramax, so could Setrab. Call them. Oh, I forgot you already did that. Didn't they say " call Mike?" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Does the word snakeoil sound familiar? I hope your cooler lives up to your promises; if not, you better hide. I am not worried about mine.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

4-6 degree vent temp benefit under what conditions?

Ray


Please see the post at the top of the page. The more trans heat you need to dump, the better the effect.


" I tested the removal of the stock cooler to another location. I did this only to verify the merit of relocation. My AC vent temps dropped 3 degrees (104F day, tranny temp 160, after 35mph drive over 5 miles). I stopped there,"


Mike,


IGHRGEW

Well damm, I'm stumped............ Either I'm really slow or it just doesn't really make any sense.Edited by: Burner

Sssssh! Let him chew on it. It will keep him out of trouble for awhile. Whoops, gotta go empty my bucket!

What does worse flow through the cooler mean?





Another real world experiment using these 2 coolers.


35mph test to determine relative face velocity. Both coolers exposed to free stream (Held it out the window while going 35 http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif)


Results:


Earls 21mph


Setrab 16mph








I find these results somewhat of a joke. If you held them out the window at 35 MPH with the type of pressure drop your showing it would rip it right out of your hands! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw Up.gif The only way would be to build a brace to hold them in the same position, mount one and test, then the other. Another thing is the air speed on the face would be greatly affected if the cooler angles to the wind were not exactly the same, which you could not do holding it out the window! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif Are you just slinging numbers out there? If you build a mount, place the measuring device behind the cooler not in front of it if your trying to get real numbers! You cannot block the thing your trying to measure. The only way to get the real numbers is to measure the air speed in the same plain as it enters the cooler ( just above or below )and then measure the exit speed through the cooler at the same time. The difference between the two measurements will let you know what truly going on. As far as replacing the lines with -10 or -12 you are gaining nothing! You had better go measure the id of the aircraft fittings then measure the ID of a 5/8" hard line. Also the cost would be through the roof as the Aircraft rubber lines will not hold the temperature so you would need to use real aircraft line which uses a Teflon liner instead of rubber. 25 - 30 feet of -12 which is what you need to match the 5/8" hard line runs about $9.50 per foot. Then add the fittings and hose ends and you've got $350 or better in just lines!





I'm all for a better cooler but not fairy tales.

I am ready to test the final product:


3. Test article rejected over 24,000 BTU/hr, over 300% of the stock cooler capacity. Test conducted with 215 F inlet temp and 600 cfm, resulted in 137 degree exit temp, yes a 75 degree drop flowing 1.5 gal/min. (stock cooler is around 20 degree drop).


4. AC benefit of 4-6 degree lower vent temperatures compared to same cooler mounted in factory location.





Is this stuff real or just your therory?


You could not afford a good air flow device two weeks ago. I find it hard to believe you spent the money to run these type test, let alone bought the equipment needed to do them on your own! Needlless to say you had to have them run twice so you could find out what the stock system would do Vs. the new majic cooler. I would love to see real test reports from a lab to back up any of this data as it getting really far out into left field http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

So, ya gonna tell me what the heck that means or what?

AN 10 isn't actually size overkill. Stock lines are .527 ID (.625-.049 wall thickness) AN 10 would be a close replacement at +- .56 ID. FWIW I will be using AN/Jic for my rather different setup. My biggest concern is over cooling so I will be installing a 180 degree high flow Mocal oil thermostat w/ full bypass. Total setup should have plenty more than enough flow. The cooler I have is way overkill (Setrab 262 ; 7" X 22") but I won't have to go past the workshop shelf to get it. And no I am not marketing a cooler. This cooler new is not cost effective. I'll leave the mas production to the guys that are good at this kind of thing. This one will just be my own personal design.


On edit: I will still be using the factory lines with the exception of short additional plumbing runs. I will probably bend lines for this at a later date just for a better appearance. Edited by: a bear

As a general rule of thumb, bar and plate stacked coolers outperform their tube and fin constructed competitors by 25%


The SETRAB cooler is bar and plate isn't it?

Thanks for the information A bear.


Got Juice, yes it is.


Others (you figure out where you fit): I try to make allowance for people I don't see I to I with, but after 5 pages of it, enough. If you don't like my results, I don't care. Don't read them. You guys have the same thing to say to everyone who stumbles into this section.


You defy the intent of these threads (over and over) and create dissention and chaos for your own self-serving motives, this is the most conclusive result of this thread (and others), not a heat transfer stat. Not one constructive thing to add without at least 2 accompanying insults. I know I don't work in the trenches, and I know that is a constant ego battle for some people, but, I don't need grease on my face to honor and respect what you do. If anyone should be banned (IMO)from a "support forum" it is the guy who creates an atmosphere of dischord in an attempt to claim a stake of ownership in cyberspace. And you don't do it in private, you intentionally use a public venue to humiliate. How you repeatedly get away with it here, aggredious as it is, remains a mystery to me, but I suspect it is in the relationships. I put up with more from my friends as well. But IMO, the standards of conduct for the supporting vendors should be tighter.


Financial support to a forum is a great thing, but it should not be a license to abuse people, which is what you boys make it look like. JMO and perception. You want an example of what I am referring to, Max Power, his participation is a credit, and he represents this forum well. He never trolls, or solicits without welcome, he gives you honest constructive information, only when you ask for it, and I've never seen him slam anyone, tact his middle name. Like it or not, realistic or not, supporting vendors do represent the forum with more weight than anyone else. They carry an "exclamation point" on the avatar. When they behave with respect towards others this becomes a welcome place for membership. Newbies point this out all the time. Your behavior just makes people want to run for cover, after reading your posts, I feel like I am peeing on an electric fence. Thankfully, you number few. Why would I keep a book you send me after being stripped of all dignity? Then you use that event as an excuse to further humiliate, distorting facts very subtly to create a self-serving illusion, without blatant lies. I got your number. others do as well, without me pointing it out.


So I have nothing to prove. I doubt that my effort represents anything but false and frivolous claims to you anyway, regardless of how I support it. I know some longwinded zinger is coming, but so you know in advance, it doesn't change anything. The more members you smoke here, the less your advertising dollar gets you, with credibility dissipating with each thrashing, Zing away, to the discredit of this entire forum, not just your reputation.


Eventually this thread will be shut down as well, like the others, and maybe that is your intent, to elicit controversy, that is a common direction for the allison these days. Between then and now, I won't be replying to your input, as you clearly are not in support of this, and only endeavor to discredit my effort.


Rant overhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

Michael,


You okay, buddy? I know you don't like the approach, but there may be some things to think about in everyone's comments, regardless of delivery. I don't care about the comments that poke, only what is thematic in the thread. Of course, these arrows are not pointed at me, so it's easy for me to say it. I guess what I'm saying is, try not to take the comments personally, but do read them and see if there is any merit at all in something said within it.


That probably didn't make any sense. . . .


Dennis

hmmmm - ive been reading this thread from day one and i dont think anyone is trying to cause chaos or stir up controversy for any reason other than trying to point out relevant facts that need to be looked into - some of the information posted above are facts in regards to test environment and results - JMO

To All,


Asking someone to back up data is not a loaded question, nor an attack in any way of that person.


As far as a distinction between a supporting vendor and non-supporting vendor is this:


A supporting Vendor has chosen to support this "FREE" website,
Yes it is totally free, no membership to pay no hidden charges to read the forums, just sign up, log in and follow the rules of conduct and that's all.


Supporting Vendors do really help keep the lights on, many offer free and valuable advice and are for the most part willing to help you out, I won't name any names it is not my place to so so, just do some reading and you can figure out who and how they contribute.
They have developed and built products for the members out of a desire to fix a problem they have encountered on there own truck, or simply improve these trucks in some way.


Do they want to make money, YES, they depend on web sites like this for there livelihood. Are they price competitive, yes I think so, but if and when there is a problem most will go out of there way to help you resolve it.
Try and get that type of customer service from the E-BAY sellers..........


On the same topic, many members have written DYI articles that benefit the membership, whether or not you need the articles does not matter, they are there for viewing. We also have GM technicians here to answer questions, former employees of GM to track new vehicles, etc.


I do not think another web site out here has what THE DIESEL PLACE has to offer......AND IT'S ALL FREE......


In the case of this and other threads, the Diesel Place has rules.





Forum Rules (http://dieselplace.com/forum/registration_rules.asp)


Vendor Rules (http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8891&amp;PN=1)





If anyone needs to have these rules clarified please contact the site administrator DIESEL POWER via pm or Mackin or Myself via pm.





Thank You,





TONYEdited by: GMC-2002-Dmax

3. Test article rejected over 24,000 BTU/hr, over 300% of the stock cooler capacity. Test conducted with 215 F inlet temp and 600 cfm, resulted in 137 degree exit temp, yes a 75 degree drop flowing 1.5 gal/min. (stock cooler is around 20 degree drop).





You may not like what I've said or maybe how I've said it but this is a pretty wild claim! I think the way you are going about this isn't very good and at best is very misleading to the members. I'm not selling nor making transmission coolers so you can drop that part. You say it rejects over 300% more than the stock cooler capacity, Can you please show some test data to support this claim.


You state inlet temp of 215F with an outlet temp of 137 F with 600cfm of something.............. air , water, co2???? You need to state what the temperature and cooling medium used in both cases!


A 78deg F. drop is great but leaving out how it was achived ........... makes it useless and misleading IMO.

Fair.


The data belongs to Setrab, they were kind enough to share it. You are correct, I unpurposely ommitted that the cooling medium is air at 90F, exiting at 130 F. I will fix that on edit.


I doubt that I can reproduce conditions that require this kind of heat removal on a duramax(or anyone), so I don't think it will be verified by me. Naturally thier tests are in perfect conditions, they want the best numbers possible to post. i concede that the 600cfm that they get will probably be more like 500 cfm in an obscured location,(but could be 700 cfm in free stream) since zero static pressure is not real world obtainable, and will erode some of this rejection number, by 10% or more. Assume less ideal 400cfm, but with 60 degree air, and the heat rejection number would be about the same. Possible worst case, 1 fan dies, 200cfm, and 115 F ambient. It is still out there over 12000, and close to 30 degree drop.


I don't see why it is so unbelievable, though, fanning a setrab is extremely effective at heat removal, especially compared to a stock cooler during low speed ops.. That 20 drop in the stock cooler is not available except for high speed, correct me if I'm mistaken.


As for the 300% statement, I believe that may be conservative. I don't know what the present fluid rate is in the allison exactly. So just for the sake of comparison, if it is 1.5 gpm, then the stock cooler with a 20 drop, is doing 25% of the cooling of something with an 78 drop, you gotta see that logic. If the allison flows 3 gpm (while at a 20 drop), then the setrab is only equal to 2 stock coolers.


There is no attempt to mislead anyone here, what would be the purpose of that, we are trying to solve problems? It is not smoke and mirrors. There are a lot of factors that influence heat transfer, and your mileage will definately vary. I am an optimization guy, that is this project, and why every step is evaluated for improvement without tradeoffs, or carefully weighed ones.. Edited by: masterp2

Hey, masterP.... if ya really want flames start another thread with 'DTT' in the titlehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


That ought to take about 130 posts and 24 hours and it will be shut downhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Good effort on a cooling solution. Look forward to seeing it

Numbers on paper and in the lab under controlled conditions are fine but they almost never end up that way in the field. The Allison is a big heat sink when bolted in the truck so are we talking fluid temperature drop at the cooler or fluid temperature drops as measured by the factory gauge which is in the transmission body? So what your trying to tell me is that if the factory cooler drops the fluid from 215 to say 140 in 80 deg. weather when stationary and your new cooler is 300% better so it should drop the fluid to 3 times that drop by your numbers. That would be 215 - 150= 65 degrees, I don't think so. That would be dropping the temperature to less than ambient which makes it over 100% efficent............ never going to happen!


Maybe a much better way to state what's this thread is about is cooler theory not real world data from testing.

Stock cooler at 75 F drop? Not on this planet.


We are so not talking apples-apples. Maybe I am missing something. Keep the dialog, I am sure we are just crossing up in the language of things. I am as patient as the next guy as long as there is some forward motion, and a willingness to exploit the possibilities.


I do think we are on the right track. Heat transfer is not the easiest of sciences, but it is an exact science (in lab conditions), that behaves predictably.


If the only air available to cool 210 fluid was 200 degree air, we would all be sukin wind.


300% better means able to remove 3x the BTU from the fluid. Assuming a max temp drop of the stock cooler of 20 F, if another cooler can effect a 60 F drop, that is 3x better, 300%. With a 78 drop, I was being conservative, knowing these are not lab conditions.

Numbers on paper and in the lab under controlled conditions are fine but they almost never end up that way in the field. The Allison is a big heat sink when bolted in the truck so are we talking fluid temperature drop at the cooler or fluid temperature drops as measured by the factory gauge which is in the transmission body? So what your trying to tell me is that if the factory cooler drops the fluid from 215 to say 140 in 80 deg. weather when stationary and your new cooler is 300% better so it should drop the fluid to 3 times that drop by your numbers. That would be 215 - 150= 65 degrees, I don't think so. That would be dropping the temperature to less than ambient which makes it over 100% efficent............ never going to happen!


Maybe a much better way to state what's this thread is about is cooler theory not real world data from testing.





Diesel Tech,


I don't think that is what Masterp2 is trying to say. I think he's trying to say that the cooling capacity of his setup is three times more efficient than the stock capacity. That wouldn't translate into three times the temperature change because, as you point out, that would cool you to less than the heat sink temperature; impossible.


Theoretically the higher the efficiency of the cooler, the closer you can get to the temperature of the heat sink, so as an example, if the stock cooler, in 80 degree outside temperature, cooled fluid pumped at 1.5 gpm from 200 degrees to 140, then perhaps Michael's cooler, all other parameters unchanged, would cool that fluid to 100 degrees in the same time (No math involved here, just a hypothetical example). It still requires three times the cooling capacity to get the fluide down to that temperature (net work).


Guys, no one said this is a perfect test or that it will or won't work as Michael thinks and hopes it will, I'm sure he doesn't have unlimited funds and a wind tunnel. Let him give it a try and see what he comes up with. If peole didn't try things, we'd never have gone to the moon, we'd never have nuclear power, we wouldn't have transistors, no computers, no forums, and then we wouldn't be able to argue about it.


I'm all for a good (okay great) round of bantering, but maybe we should ALL step back and try to use constructive criticism as much as possible. Just my two cents. (Diesel Tech, this comment isn't for you or ANYONE else in particular, just a general statement) Everyone that has made a comment has probably a legitimate concern. . .


Dennis

I agree with the statement of it possible being that it will remove more heat its just the amount of the numbers, or maybe better said the size of the numbers. I went out and removed the grille of my '04 LLY GMC and ran the engine until the transmission was showing one notch below 200 (175)on the gauge. The engine water was right at 200. That is the average temperature of the transmission not the outlet temp of the fluid. I tried to touch the inlet line on the cooler and it will burn you if you touch it for long(anything over a quick touch). My guess the temperature is something over 210, now reaching over to the return line on the cooler I could hold it for about 2- 3 seconds before it was too hot to hold. Now I have done this same test with another aftermarket cooler in place and was able to hold the return line all day long. So my guess is the aftermarket cooler had lowered the temperature another 20 - 30 degrees beyond the factory cooler. I just don't think it possible to reduce the factory temperature drop by a factor of 3 to 1. So given that I do a fair amount of welding I can probably hold hotter things than most but I would venture a guess that 2 - 3 seconds of 120 would be a good limit, maybe less. The truck was sitting still idling and the outside air temps. are about 82 deg. F.


Michael needs to get some real world numbers together from a few trucks and then we can begin to see what's real and what's on paper.

Okay, that's cool. You might be surprised how hot those lines really were. I bet much hotter than 120. A hot tub is set around 104-108 and you could immerse your hand in that all day (and might be kind of nice depending on what was immersed with ithttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif), especially being a welder. . .


It just seemed like there was more pessimism than constructive criticism. . . as long as everything's cool I am learning a lot on this thread, that's what makes this forum what it is; the knowledge gained is incredible.


Thanks,
Dennis

I'm not truly a welder just seem to go out into the shop and do my fair share of it. Kind of breaks up the day from staring at computer code all day long. Now the hot tub at 104 , a beer, and a good lady friend ......... sounds like nice Friday night.


I'm all for a better mouse trap but some of the statements that were made, were posted as the bible truth and they were anything but that. Line sizes, temperature drops, holding coolers out the window at 35 mph while driving and taking readings were pretty far out there. Don't get me wrong I would love to see a cooler drop the numbers that were claimed over stock, hell I'd buy one. Let's get off the paper and do a little real world testing and report numbers and the supporting data. Sure if we had endless space for a huge cooler, two fans and 60 deg F. air things would be nice but my truck runs out pulling 10,000 lbs in 100 - 120 deg air temps with the AC cranked and my foot firmly planted on the go peddle!

I did not brag about my cooler untill I put it on a real truck, under real conditions. I told everyone my goal was 20 deg drop in temps and easy install. I consulted with the transmission people that I respect and believe. We discussed pressures in the cooler, we discussed flow, temps, climates and compared every manufacturers coolers and what they did and where they failed. We discussed frontal air blockage. I then took all this info to Setrab and consulted them. I had already chosen the cooler I thought was best and they concured. I did all of this from a standpoint of a transmission tech that has been a racer, built numerous hotrods and race cars. I raced Baja and saw transmission failures and learned. I did not do it from a standpoint of an engineer, which I am not. I will listen to engineers if they give me some real world answers. Put your idea in a real truck, then send your customer and his family into the desert or wherever with a real load and see what happens. Build the cooler and stop with all the numbers. If it is as good as you say, it will sell.

DT and Mike,


I roger what you guys are saying. I thoroughly enjoyed the entire discussion, but I can see some value in what masterp2 did, and why he did it his way. You guys both have tons of practical experience in transmissions and transmission coolers, as you point out Mike. He didn't, so he had to play 'catch up' (although probably won't have the same level of knowledge, just 'good enough') by doing what engineers do, run a few tests (even if the tests aren't perfect, if they show some positive gain, they're worth it). Once you have a little data, then go make a prototype, then go to a final model, then test it real world. What he did was try to get as much info from everyone as he could during his 'catch up' phase. Now he's ready to test a final, maybe tweak it a little here and there, and be done with it. It will take more time for him to make one than either of you guys, because of this approach. I think the results will be good.


I've been waiting to see BOTH the new coolers. I think there will be an answer to a lot of guys prayers when this is all said and done. In the mean time, I'm learning all kinds of stuff I never would have without this thread.


It seems to me like things are reasonable around here. . . maybe I'll stop my whining now.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Dennis

This is cooler hellhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


I know I didn't do everything right in my lifetime, but what did I do to deserve this?


After my trans read 150, I got a 4-6 degree drop in the driveway, that's all. And I could feel the temp diff in my hands also, but still too hot to hold. I have ***** hands with blisters (not keyboard blisters). I can feel a 1 degree diff on my sons forehead, (yes I am a mother, so piss on me, i don't care.) I suppose that is because our temp sensors are most sensitive at 98.6 degrees, 50 degrees either side of that and forget about it, lucky to sense 5 degree diff. When he is sick, a 60 degree drop is the difference between Ice cream and a warm bath (yes, really). I build low frequency sound equipment (don't worry mike L, I'm not going to try to sell it on your thread), the ears are even worse than hands for discerning differences in magnitude. Without an SPL meter I would be lost, and making changes based on very innacurate perceptions (ears).


Going 55 changes this a lot (as would a fan), but I am just not comfortable riding on the hood, so I don't know what the stock max temp drop has been. All you can do is run 55 for awhile, jump out and take a measurement. But when airflow stops, the outlet temp quickly changes while standing there.


DT said


So what your trying to tell me is that if the factory cooler drops the fluid from 215 to say 140 in 80 deg. weather when stationary and your new cooler is 300% better so it should drop the fluid to 3 times that drop by your numbers


That is comparing an imaginary cooler (75 deg stock drop) with a real one. Why? the stock cooler cannot drop 75 degrees, ask yourself, if you doubt a 78 degree drop is possible, how is it that a cooler with half it's size and efficiency on a stock truck with no fan and highly restricted airflow could drop 75 degrees? Makes no sense at all! I'm beginning to think you are just playing with me, though I am probably missing something, I always do.


I know you are tired of this discussion, me too. I'm just pointing out things that are being overlooked. Want to test one? Anyone in the Phoenix area want to test one?





P.S. Mike, Nobody is selling anything, I'm trying to follow the rules here, DP has already reminded me this is not for sale at this point. Edited by: masterp2

Strumming finger across lips bebbbbebbebbbebbebbbbbebebebbebebe!!


The hand'o meter ranks right up there with the ass'o meter,worthless IMO. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


This thread has more Ego then a Bar Room full of drunks and one C cup Blondie hottie.





Mac

Strumming finger across lips bebbbbebbebbbebbebbbbbebebebbebebe!!


The hand'o meter ranks right up there with the ass'o meter,worthless IMO. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


This thread has more Ego then a Bar Room full of drunks and one C cup Blondie hottie.





Mac





Mac


I guess that means you fit right in here. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


mike

masterp2


I think you should build a cooler. This would be good for all of us because it brings more interest to this important subject. Different ideas are a good thing. This is not cooler hell only a friendly dialog with some very smart people participating and they will jump you when they sense something is not correct. As far as what you did to deserve this: you are kidding, right? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


mike

My Ego, driver, curb weight +,beer still clicked off a 13.6. So I'm a lite weight compared to this topic!





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif

Strumming finger across lips bebbbbebbebbbebbebbbbbebebebbebebe!!


The hand'o meter ranks right up there with the ass'o meter,worthless IMO. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


This thread has more Ego then a Bar Room full of drunks and one C cup Blondie hottie.





Mac





ROFLMAO. Mac, you always know how to crack me up.


Dennis

This is not cooler hell only a friendly dialog with some very smart people





Oh good. Are they going to be here soon!


See mac, I haven't completely lost my sense of humor..., http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

My Ego, driver, curb weight +,beer still clicked off a 13.6. So I'm a lite weight compared to this topic!





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Tongue.gif





Wonder how fast TONYhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif and you would have run with O'Douls in the cooler? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

Mike,


How do you know O'Douls WASN'T in the cooler. . .http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Dennis

Any one that knows Mac ........knows there wasn't Odouls in the coolerhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

What would happen if they ran out of Bud. . .mass hysteria. . . dogs and cats living together. . .

What would happen if they ran out of Bud. . .mass hysteria. . . dogs and cats living together. . .


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

There should have been Stoly in the cooler. ( more bang for the buck). Would they have run faster? Would they have felt better? I would imagine the bench racing under those conditions would get real technical till the phone call to the wives for a ride home. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Been there done that.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike

I have developed a no-compromise solution. I need to know what you guys think for mounting locations/features.


1. Frame rail mounted passenger side, sideways mounted. or


2. Mounted behind bumper (both locations obscured from airstream)


Dual fan custom modified cooler.


Redundant fan controls, 2 tier thermoswitched, can be manually switched off in-cab for water crossing if desired.


Upsized AN-12 stainless braid lines and sweep fittings.





Some Advantages over stock cooler (or stock cooler location substitute):


Cooler completely shielded from debris.


Much quicker warmup time to 160 F,


Sub freezing flow rate dramatically increased, 3-4X.


Temperature regulated between 160-180, never higher regardless of load.


Lower vent temps for AC operation (verified).


Lower fan clutch engagement in extreme conditions.


Decreased airflow restriction (and lower air temp) across intercooler and radiator, Enhances engine cooling capability of radiator, intercooler efficiency.





Disadvantages: More care required for proper line routing/installation





If you want an expensive tranny to last, it has to stay cool, not just the fluid. The whole tranny need to stay in a small range of optimal temps, and temp fluctuation minimized, to truly reduce heat stress across the board. Going from 200-230 and back constantly is not good, and you can't compensate for it with fluid changes. You can replace the injured fluid, but the stress of changing temps is a constant stress on every part, which fluid change cannot address. Maintaining a proper operating temp within a small range is a major objective of this end product. A (reliable) cooler that cools when it is needed, and stops cooling when it is not. Since I need my transmission to last longer than 36,001 miles, I don't care what the dealer thinks, if I have an issue I'll put the stock cooler back on before bringing it in.


To the rocket scientist twins: I could care less if you think this is just smoke and fraud, if you want to sabotage this effort, masking as the savior of this forum, go right ahead, it's transparent and obnoxious, and questionable ethic and motive. I have put far too much time into this to let you scribble with a crayon on my work. You don't know everything.


I have been testing this cooler without fans in the airstream sensitive stock location, and sure it reduces tranny temps, but temp swings are increased, (the pressure drop across a setrab is huge compared to the stock cooler) and I am worried about the cold weather LLY folks ever getting up to a safe operating temp (without covers) unless an expensive thermostat is incorporated. I don't like what it does to my AC or fan clutch engagement on a 100 deg day. I am going to measure EGT under some standard conditions to get a grip on that, but intake temp must be increased as well. I just don't like solutions that cause so many other tradeoffs.


For those truly interested in a true cooling solution in severe conditions, hot or cold, fire away. If you have a suggestion for features or location, considering line routing, let's hear it.


I am not a vendor here yet, but if there is enough interest in this, I will consider it and make this affordably available, along with a stock location option. Please do not PM me with a request for information, I will not reply. If my status as a vendor does change, then I will let you know.

You plan on running through the factory cooler in the radiator still? If yes the lines will remain stock to it? and then braided back to the trans or what? Were at on the frame? LLY folks should have the same concern as LB&amp; folks IMO on over cooling. A factory cooler makes it run very frosty without a cover but you should be running a cover anyway, that should also not really be a concern IMO.


Rocket scientists using crayons??? Comment seems a bit off to me but what ever

New lines from the tranny, stock cooler removed, to benefit airflow through the other radiator components, and to generate much less line pressure loss. All cooler parts removed, not destroyed, for later restoration.


An alternative is to leave the line to the radiator in place, and just replace the other 2, radiator to cooler, and cooler to trans. For the extra trouble, I would replace them all to establish the best flow possible.


I more or less want to know what you all think is a better idea, front end cooler or passenger frame mounted. Both will be effective. Also features for fan activation.Edited by: masterp2

So you havent decided if you are eliminating the radiator or not? I'm not quite followinghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif

Sorry for not being clear. I guess you mean "cooler" not "radiator", or "radiator line". I edited the post.


IMO the stock cooler is just in the way. The replacement fanned cooler is capable of handling 2 allisons, wherever it is located. So to get the most birds and most benefit, my conclusion is to remove to stock cooler, as it is a more effective screen than it is a cooler.


I would definately not eliminate the radiator stage, it is an important element in warming up the allison, and keeping it warm in the coldest weather.


Edited by: masterp2

Michael,


Good to see you are still at it. You mentioned "sideways" mounting of the new cooler on the passenger side frame rail; will this be a transverse mount that won't directly benefit from frontal wind and therefore require an electric fan for air movement?

There should have been Stoly in the cooler. ( more bang for the buck). Would they have run faster? Would they have felt better? I would imagine the bench racing under those conditions would get real technical till the phone call to the wives for a ride home. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif Been there done that.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


mike





Stolichnaya=Stolihttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif


Moscova=http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Starka=http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gif

Poplov(sp?) and Skol=http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw Up.gif


In my younger days I learned very fast there is a big difference between drinkable vodka and rotgut cheap vodka.

Ray, it was the design criteria and what I learned about the allison as a sink that led down the path to design out of the airstream away from the present location. To truly have an "all conditions" cooler solution, it needs to supply it's own wind based on demand. It is the "right" way, not the cost effective way.


Alternatively you can put a humungous (as big as the condenser) cooler behind the grill with a thermostat, and that will be an all-conditions cooler as well, but it also blankets the other heat exchangers, and causes other concessions/tradeoffs. A Bear is doing something similar, but away from the stack I think.


I know you don't want to lose AC efficiency in scottsdale.


The cooler doesn't benefit from the wind, and that is the point. If it did, it could overcool in the north, or even here in the mountains. The thermostat solves that problem, but you are still left with the reduced HOT conditions operating envelope that results from the reduced effectiveness of the AC, intercooler, and radiator.


GM chose to put a moderately sized cooler in, what represents many compromises and keeps most of the illusioned world happy, but is most effective on a 60 deg day, going 50 with no trailer behind you. To GM the most important part was the price of it. Sure 230 deg is acceptable, since 36K is their liabilty. But you can make a quality transmission last 200-300K if you don't buy into that crap. To spend $50 less to protect a $5000 tranny is an example of market driven corporate intelligence. I live in the desert, everything dies a heat related illness here, and there are tranny shops EVERYWHERE.


Sorry if I seem overly defensive to some of you. It didn't happen overnight. Edited by: masterp2

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gifhello. new to the forum i have read a good majority of your response's concerning heat out of your trans. I too was having a 'HEAT" problem when towing my 30' gearbox I was seeing upwards of 200 degrees on my gauge It really made me uncomfortable . my fix was found at napa It was a trans cooler specifically made for the allison cooler the dimensions were 18x24x1.5 thick HUGE .iT FIT PERFECTLY BEHIND THE GRILLE OF MY 03. I ran 5/8 id line to hook it up in series to my cooler. In addition to the extra 3.5 quarts of oil that i now enjoy my temp has never exceeded 150 degrees something that i can live with Just thought i would give my two cents worth ..ps.... love the forum

I hear what your saying Michael and I would prefer to not lose A/C efficiency.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif my fix was found at napa It was a trans cooler specifically made for the allison cooler the dimensions were 18x24x1.5 thick HUGE .


Welcome to the forum! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Do you know which model Allison that cooler supported?

Joey


Welcome to this crazy thread. Did you use a bypass thermostat? Have you had a winter in the new mod yet? If not, let us know what your temps are on the 60 mph idaho freeway. Just would like to see if my suspicions are true, if you will get over 120. Don't need AC much in idaho I guess.


Get us a pic man! 3.5 quart cooler, could pull the shuttle into orbit!

have not had a winter in it yet ,never thought much about it .figure the winter front will take care of the cold up here in north idaho got pretty hot here this summer 100 plus for like 13 days or so in a row , ac never failed to keep me cool motor temp stayed well in 190 area. cooler was probably intended for larger allison as in buses and such, was only cooler i could find with large enough inlet/outlet size to support largr cooler lines tranny guy up here said i needed that, napa part # 1-4760 freeway cruzin never goes over 140 also received my deep cooler from diesel-tech today so theresanother 3 qts too! my thinking is cant keep it to cool thanks for the replies will have to get some pics posted of my "improvements" luv my truck

An excerpt from a 2000 GM article:
Transmission oil cooler. This new transmission oil cooler, used with the Allison 1000 5-speed automatic transmission, is mounted below the radiator to preclude heat from the transmission going into the engine cooling system. It relies on RAM air from openings in the front bumper. The size of the cooler has been increased from previous models, and its larger 5/8-inch lines (compared to 3/8-inch lines previously used) provide for a very liberal 6-gallon-per-minute (GPM) transmission fluid flow rate. Transmission fluid cooling is substantially improved as a result.
Anyone seen a factory cooler mounted below the radiator in the earlier years?????

Nope. Wonder if they scratched it for fear of insurance industry repair estimates for minor bumper damage?

Lack of airflow is my bet. Even relocated the LB7 allison had innadequate trans cooling. In that sheltered location, the same cooler would have been really bad.

...snip...
Get us a pic man! 3.5 quart cooler, could pull the shuttle into orbit!

Hehh eehh! Speaking of pictures.... When do we
get to see a picture of your bad boy?

Thanks!

T.

PS: Since I drive unloaded most of the time, I flipped the overloads., Best ride mod I've done, THANKS for the tip!

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/BC5_coolerback.pnghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/23C_coolerfront.png


All I have at the moment. Mounting this one this weekend. A most capable 4-yr old.


But you guys haven't said whether you think frame mounted or front mounting is best for this application. Frame mounting looks like a very protected application, though tires could throw debris up to the fans, when mounted sideways, maybe a protective shield.


Yes, those are factory line adapters for the setrab, for the stock location experiments.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/BC5_coolerback.pnghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/23C_coolerfront.png
All I have at the moment. Mounting this one this weekend. A most capable 4-yr old.

COOl! That means I could probably do it too... :)


But you guys haven't said whether you think frame mounted or front mounting is best for this application. Frame mounting looks like a very protected application, though tires could throw debris up to the fans, when mounted sideways, maybe a protective shield.

I think there's more "room" up front and maybe even
more "fresh air flow" available for the fans, but
I dont' really have a preference either way....


Yes, those are factory line adapters for the setrab, for the stock location experiments.

Are those custom machined? or where might I get a
set? I'm not sure -12A/N is required. I'm looking
at getting some -10A/N fittings machined here locally.
(local=Dallas)

Thanks!

T.

Those are not AN fittings, they are the 5/8" factory connection-22mm male into the cooler. Not found on this earth except in my garage. I have those as well in AN-12, to adapt an AN-12 male cooler fitting to the factory line. I have gone with AN-12 because the an-10 fittings are restrictive compared to the 5/8" ID stock connections. I plan on using a 5/8 id line for much better cold weather flow (the cooler could flow much more), so the AN-12 was the decision for these fittings


By "up front", I mean below the radiator, behind the bumper, this cooler will not need air flow, just a place to exhaust. And it is about 6" thick.Edited by: masterp2

Many many thanks to Kevin, KTDuramax for his help in fabricating some new cooler bracketry last week. Here is his handywork. I should thank his family also for letting him sacrifice thier sunday, and for entertaining Thomas.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/7B2_coolerunder.png


It's still hangin on.

The rest.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/91A_coolerhose.png


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/AD2_coolerfittings.png


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/FF7_coolerfrnt2.png


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/B7C_coolerside.png


It's very well protected IMO. The valence cover was removed for the shot, there is no need to remove it, it can stay on to protect it from flying debris.

hows the real world testing going on, and what are the differences its making ?

The final cooler will have the thermoswitch built-in, this one, I have to plumb it in-line, so I am waiting on an adapter that converts the 22mm male switch to a JIC male connection that I can place in a branch T on the cooler inlet line. So I don't have automatic fan operation at the moment.


Also am testing 2 sets of lines to determine if the increased flow ability of an-12 is something to consider seriously, vs an-10. You can see the diff in just the hose fittings in the pic above.


I'll post numbers when I can be conclusive.

Been testing around town, fully automatic control. Conditions that yielded 200 on the tranny now never budge above 160, and so far only one fan has been running, and that has been seldom. This testing has been with the air dam cover in place, so the cooler is not exposed to any direct air stream. Did this to see if suitable for the chevy with no air dam slot.


With the absence of the cooler in front of the condenser, my EGT's are definately lower, especially when the comparison is done with a 200 degree transmission (160 for the mod), 72 degrees cooler. (BTW I also noticed that shutting off the AC reduces EGT about 50 degrees, FWIW, try it in the driveway next time you pull in, otherwise it is not easy to see with the constant gauge fluctuations) AC is definately colder and I have not had my fan clutch engage even once with this mod!


Tomorrow, I am pulling a boat through the AZ mountains, we'll see how that does. Report back next week.

Well, hells bells............ sounds like you just might have something there. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


Don't use the T/H and see how the temps do. Edited by: Burner

masterp2, this thread hits many of the same issues we have been looking at for overheating LLY's, after looking at the stack it only made sense to me that the tranny cooler had to go. I as well favor thermostatic fan cooling in this application. You are way further along that I am at this stage so I am very curious about your results, as well as if you intend to sell a package or just list parts like others have done.

One thing though, my "stack warmer" as I have come to call it days are numbered, whether it be by your design (which seems well thought out, researched, and tested) or a one off of my own. Wouldn't be the first time I built parts from scratch!

Back from my trip to Lake Powell. What a place! If you can, go see it! Like being in a flooded Grand Canyon. My 5th year hosting a houseboat gathering. The weather was almost PERFECT, and the fishing/boating was fun.


5000 lb load, 96 degrees, up to 8% grades, T/H off most of the time, ac on. Everything went well, I heard my fan once, after stopping on a crest to let Thomas pee on a bush (he thinks that's funnyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif). It quickly disappeared before hitting 40 mph. Max engine temp observed was 206, edge level 3, tranny temps never exceeded 175-180, and I never observed both fans operating, though I did verify both as operable. Formerly I was breaking 220+ engine temps, 200 tranny temps, with nearly non-stop fan ops on the hills.


I set the edge alarm to 1250 egt and never heard it. The times I looked at it on the worst climbs I saw close to 1200. Formerly, I reached 1300 plus.


I will have to redesign the mounts a little to eliminate an inertia coupled vibration, but I am satisfied with it otherwise.


Got out the gun and shot a 30 degree differential on the cooler in/out with one fan running.


Obviously these are mild conditions compared to some more severe conditions, the hottest days behind us, the cooler had plenty of reserve. All in all, I don't think this can be improved upon.

Wow Michael I started reading this from the other thread and found it very interesting. I am so glad to see your results and really wish we had some good HOT weather and trailers to test. But my seat of the pants read is this is a real good shot at all around cooling. Take the stress off the stack and the rest will follow.





With the Chevy we don't get that cool little space in the bumper, where would we mount this? The two little slots in the bumper look like they deflect air to the "main" stack so that would rob peter to pay Paul. If I follow right this can still be placed with out direct air flow? ( Sorry about the Italics but I hit something and it will not switch back)

Yes it is just as effective, and a better cold weather cooler when completely obscurred. Here are some pics of the prototype temperature controls, immersion bath type, located on the intake leg. I had to plumb it in a T, though the final cooler will have the switch located directly on a cooler factory bung fitting (3 instead of 2), eliminating the extra plumbing. The terminals are routed through bosch relays to each fan, for reliabilty and longevity.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/masterp2/2004-10-06_151045_tempswitch.pnghttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/masterp2/2004-10-06_151108_tempfitting.pngEdited by: masterp2

Cool! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif

Masterp2, have you by anychance tried running with the fan completely diabled to mock a hypethical failure just to see if with the restricted air flow it would send the temps through the roof?


Great research hope this all pans out I would definetly be interested.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif

No, but I have thought about that as an aspect that should be tested. Easy enough to do, though the 106 degree days are behind us.


I suspect with the dam cover on, it will heat up, off and it will perform better than stock, again a guess. I'll try it and let you know, I am still playing with some things.


Is there any interest in a sideways frame rail mounted cooler?

Disconnected the power and ran around for a couple of days,no fans, empty, cover off. Max temp observed 180, stop and go on a 93 degree day. it would get you home.


The first preorder has been set up. PM for details. I will start a new thread.

Sorry my PM was full, those who PM'd me, I did not get the message.


I will be making an announcement for those interested in this development, this week. I have decided to offer this cooler as an in-place replacement, that can later be upgraded to the relocated fanned version if desired.


The reason for the delay is testing. As a fanned cooler, I have replumbed the cooler in such a way to further increase cooling capacity and act as a supplementary engine radiator, removing heat from the radiator instead of adding to it when the engine is hot, yet it is still warmed by the radiator during warmup, with decreased warmup time.. The tendencies for some of these trucks to overheat will be somewhat resolved. Among the many previously mentioned advantages, my hope is to make the fan a sound of the past, even when towing extreme.

.

I was also looking at going from the tranny to a new cooler then thru the radiator, it only made sense to pull a few btu's out of the radiator along the way.

You are very thorough Michael, glad to see you are taking all the due care to make this the best cooler system available.

Still would prefer it out of the stack though...

.

Cool the engine ? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif


I also thought there would be an engine cooling advantage by mounting my cooler upstream of the radiator but the impact is very little if any. There simply is not much of a heat exchange through the internal radiator exchanger without a LARGE temp diffriential. Temps on both the inlet and outlet lines were basicly the same temp during my testing at normal operating temps. The only difference I saw was during initial warm up of the engine and it was small. (ie.large temp exchange diff.) It is basicly a wimpy exchanger without enough fluid retention time.


On Edit: Question for Michael - How is Transmission warm up time quicker by mounting the cooler upstream of the radiator?Edited by: a bear

Yesterday, it was 60 degrees in the morning. (Stock cooler is back on my truck for now, I am messing with new mounts.) I drove for 15 minutes before the tranny needle moved, a full 10 minute after the engine reached operating temp. The cooler, damn thing, keeps the tranny COLD.





How is Transmission warm up time quicker by mounting the cooler upstream of the radiator?





In the conventional configuration, the cooler cools full time, at x MPH. By seeing engine coolant last, the rad has final say, as cold tranny fluid progresses via the rad to the tranny warmed up (position swap), vs cooled by the cooler (stock position). In swapping positions, the cooler performs almost no task (except to cool the fluid, with a smaller delta T, therefore less cooling as desired) when the tranny is cold, the radiator has the last step is sending warmer fluid to the trans, vs. having the cooler cool it off after the radiator works on it (stock plumbing).


It is also quicker because a fanned cooler, mounted out of the stream, does not cool the tranny like the front mounted stocker, which cools whether you want it to or not, when the tranny is 230 or 30 below. Thanks for pointing out the confusion I may have created. i doubt I have done anything but confuse further.


On the other issue, yes the cooler can significantly help reduce the load on the radiator (cool the motor better) when the tranny fluid is cooled before the rad. That makes a lot of sense. A 230 degree stock tranny is putting out 260+ degrees to the radiator, which is at 190. it is a fairly significant exchange, and a contributor to stack saturation, when everything is HOT. I have seen no more than 18 deg drop on the stock cooler. A fanned cooler will see much more (I have measured 35 degree drop with only 160 on the gauge) up to 50-60 F drop is possible. This oversizing CAN help, by leaving the radiator unburdened by hot tranny fluid, and even reversing the heat exchange direction. I know the rad has minimal cooling capability for the tranny, especially when you frame it around the numbers that are being exchanged. I know the results don't feed the hungry, it is about making a choice that represents the better one, for the problem at hand. Where engine heat is an ever growing concern. Edited by: masterp2

Michael, Not confused at all and I understand the theory but based on 3 months of running the temps during various conditions the tranny fluid temp to and from the engine radiator is impacted only a fraction of what I expected. Simply not enough temperature exchange time. If you run the temps on the inlet and outlet (radiator) simultaniously you will also see this. Even if the upstream plumbing does allow the radiator to cool some it would be minimal and the engine thermostat would adjust to seek set temp accordingly which is also where the engine temp should run for obvious reasons. A good example is that when I run at cruising speed and my tranny outlet temp is at 145 degrees the engine stays where it should be at 190 degrees. It did not drop because the engine thermostat closed enough to maintain set temp. On the other hand during stop and go summer driving the tranny outlet temp does see 250 + but the fluid has too little time to cool in the small radiator exchanger nor does the trans fluid have time to significantly heat the engine coolant. Some change at high temp diff. but not a lot. I've recorded tranny outlet temps of 250 on several occasions in stop and go driving and the engine just sits there at 190 degrees. I agree it's a step in the right direction for even minimal gains to lowering engine temps above the engine thermostat set point but I would not look for big gains in that area. Maybe 2 or 3 degrees max.


On edit: My answer to the answer about transmission warm up time. I'm also not looking to see transmission warm up time decrease enough to make a difference based on again that small radiator exchanger. I will just have to see but even so I have no significant data to compare it to. It will just be what it is.


Edited by: a bear

Did not mean to lead you into thinking that your engine temp would be reduced. I hope I never said that. I would expect the exact results you have posted, re engine temps, correct, they are thermostatically regulated. In point of fact, you will not see lower engine temps. Let me clearly say it again, more cooling capacity does NOT equal lower engine temps, during normal operation.


What I am saying, with 100% certainty, is that the plumbing arrangement WILL impact the operating envelope of the vehicle. And the engine will sit there at 190 (or 205 fully open stats) until the exact point is reached where heat dissipation falls behind heat generation. That is my def of overheating, if sustained. 206 is the beginning of an overheat situation (though usually momentary). Noone cares about that, but for a full understanding of the engine cooling system, that needs to be acknowledged.


What I am saying is that the plumbing arrangement impacts the overall cooling capacity of the cooling system, as a whole, adding capacity to engine cooling when routed as I described. This isn't my opinion really, it's a thermodynamic event. With it, you can pull on a hotter day, or a steeper longer hill, or a heavier weight, without that onset of overheating.


The next question from someone will be "so why doesn't GM do it that way?" Simple. They are using the most efficient routing for "tranny cooling" (vs engine cooling) given the cheapass solution they have employed, an undersized cooler that represents many compromises. Since I have a clean slate, and no corporate politics to confine me, I advocate an oversized capacity cooler that will cool it's own transmission all by itself, and still have capacity to help big brother.





BTW, as an aside, GM is all aware that this cooling stack is out of whackhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif. This years cooling solution was for an electro viscous fan manufactured by Behr that operated on ECM logic, trans temps, coolant flow temps etc. A "smart" viscous fan that uses 20+ HP to drive it, just as ours does. Turned out to be an embarrassing flop with nearly no modulating ability. it was scrapped for last years fan. And now GM is buying back LLY trucks by the hundreds for overheating. It would be foolish of me to build a cooler design that wasn't sensitive to this shortfall, and design it in whatever way possible to help keep heat down in the stack. Edited by: masterp2

My bad on the LLY issues. Is there something different about the LLY cooling arrangment. This is the 1st I've heard about LLY overheating issues as I don't frequent the LLY forum.

For the LLY, one significant source of documented heat added to the stack is, tranny heat! The LLY tripled flow to the cooler (for some conditions) compared to the LB7. So when it is working hard the tranny is shedding much more heat right into the radiator (radiator gets double whammied, first fluid heat exchange, then hot air via the cooler). Others are looking for explanation outside of this rationalle, but haven't hit gold yet. The LLY tranny temp looks better than the LB7 (or you wouldn't be doing a cooler project) but my feeling is that it was very detrimental to the cooling system components which were not operating with a large margin of reserve at the outset. Even LB7's were overheating (reportedly) given the extreme conditions we see all summer. So my conclusions are based on tons of reading, some research and discussions with industry experts, one of which worked testing these rigs and designed the cooling systems for many tow vehicles.


The final vehicle design is always a split between the engineers and the designers (who try to shrink the nose exposure). This one, the designers apparently got too much.


Nonetheless, please verify information I present, it is not immune to error, has some speculation at times and is by no means the last word.Edited by: masterp2

masterp2,


Reading your post from earlier today about the cooler keeping the tranny cold, have you considered the possibility of an inline thermostatic bypass?


I had one on my Harley and it worked like a champ. When it was cold, no oil to the cooler. When it was hot, it popped right open and sent oil to the cooler. The cooler came with a "winter wrap" but I never needed it, the bypass worked just fine.


Seems like there ought to be something like that out there for our situation.


What do you thinkhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/smiley25.gif

If I were liking the stock rig, it is a good warmup solution. For a fanned cooler out of the airstream, i don't think it serves a purpose, it is redundant. For cooler like a bear's, (which could cool uranium rods given good airflow), the stat is a foregone requirement. (and good design)


A better routing would be tranny-radiator-150F stat-cooler-tranny. This for the unfanned, undersized cooler. Just one opinion.


Still, unlike any stack located cooler, a fanned cooler cools the hot tranny even when the vehicle is at a light or plowing etc. It is what sets it apart. A bypass stat can't help with that, the worse of the 2 problems.


GM avoids the stat bypass, by using the radiator to warm the fluid, but the design still takes forever to warm the (LLY with it's extra flow) allison.

One thing that eludes us with the effectiveness of the tranny cooler to impact other components. It sure would be useful if we had a cooler temp gauge. All-in-all, the tranny doesn't produce that much heat compared to the other things, but it has more thermal momentum as a heat sink than the rest of the components, and the temps will swing quite high as a result.


Let's say that over prior versions, that fluid flow was doubled on average. And know that the gauge represents the sump temp, approx., not the cooler temps. Doubling flow would have both, very little, and very dramatic affect. For the cooler, If air temp is 100 deg and trans fluid inlet temps are 120 (140 sump temp), there is nearly no detrimental heat transfer, some, but minimal. Now let's say OAT is 100 and you are working real hard, cooler inlet temps could be 220 degrees with 190 sump temps and 240 tranny out. These are realistic numbers. That is going to represent a dramatic increase in heat rejection for the cooler, and the act of doubling flow in this scenario could increase heat rejection by at least 50-150% over older versions, hence being able to maintain lower "sump" temps than a LB7. Hypothetically, let's say we can control sump temps to 190 this way. Now let's build ourselves a mega efficent cooler that controls sump temps to 140 max. On a hard pull, think of all the extra BTU's that cooler is shedding to the radiator, via the other stack components. Beautiful, gauge reads a cool 140, nice, and is sending it's struggle elsewhere. Better tranny cooling in the stack=increased overheating potential. But this shows it's ugly head when the tranny works hardest, IMO, just when the motor is also producing the most heat.


There are other areas to look for the extra heat of the LLY, EGR appears to be one, ECM code, head temps, fuel, and timing to meet EPA requirements...

Michael - I'd be very interested in one of your behind the bumper double fan units with stat that dumps all the heat out of the stack and under the truck. Where are you at this point with the design ?