I talked to a master tech tonight where I have coffee,I see him there all the time.

Anyway I had my truck in for it's first service he saw it there and I asked him about mods and such. He said that the computer will track any tuner mods when codes are kicked out,even if you put back stock program he can tell if any mods were done!!!

He wasn't being very lienant about mods at all, "voids warrantee".
Sucks because I want to put on atleast a hypertec or a edge evo and exhaust.

Just thought I'd share this info,sounds like dealers are getting strict about mods.

cough cough bull**** cough cough

Kinda sounds like a grumpy Master Tech that is tired of doing warranty jobs that he's the only one educated for :)
I'd be careful, you havent even told him of your mods and he's already stating they void your warranty.
When i asked my dealer about something aftermarket he told me "if it makes something directly related to the product you install fail - it's your butt."
So in other words if you install a highflow intake, and your mass airflow sensor fails; and they can prove your intake did it - it's your fault.
It really is the dealer's call, and after that it's GM's decision to warranty or deny warranty.

..............and the moral of this story is twofold:

a) don't believe everything you hear at a dealer

b) find another dealer to have your service performed at

Many of us here including myself have the same equipment as GM. He was filling you full of it.

cough cough bull**** cough cough
:exactly:

He's full of it, just make sure everything is stock when you take it in for service.

I posted this under first gen d-max by mistake I have a lbz 06 model.

Does the bs apply to the later trucks or have the computers become more sophisticated???

I've got the same equipment they do and I cant pick it up no way no how...

cough cough bull**** cough cough

:funnypost

..............and the moral of this story is twofold:

a) don't believe everything you hear at a dealer

b) find another dealer to have your service performed at


:exactly:

I've said it before and will say it again, it is possible. The new Bosch controller also has many new features I haven't sorted out so they maybe able to track event more now and I could tell event in the old ones as could GM if they wanted too.

By master techs with standard tech 2's with the 'normal' sofware? I doubt it.

I'm new, but hear that the can tell when the computer was last flashed. Thus, if you returned it to stock the day before you brought it in..."Hey, why was the computer flashed yesterday?"
But, if they don't know why or have a reason, don't think they can deny service.

The GM Master Tech in my area can tell if I have mods........











If he looks under the hood!!!

I'm new, but hear that the can tell when the computer was last flashed. Thus, if you returned it to stock the day before you brought it in..."Hey, why was the computer flashed yesterday?"

what if you tell them that your batteries went dead and you took them out to recharge them..:confused:

cough cough bull**** cough cough

This man speaks from experience, and years of knowledge.....listen to him.

The thing we all need to realize is that this is their job.Its usually not anything personal.And the truth is some of these products aren't all that great for the vehicle,alot of fun I agree butttt not always good for vehicle.As far as GM goes,there is always another dealer down the road.The one east of me warned me about enlarged tires.The one north of me asked about the exhaust and the one south of me sells programmers,exhaust and air intakes,installs all an warrantees them.This happens to be the biggest dealer in the state.Go figure....It still comes down to the individual,whether or not the risk is worth added enjoyment..I personally believe it is within reason but I also rely on my truck to get me home.:chevy:

the one south of me sells programmers,exhaust and air intakes,installs all an warrantees them.This happens to be the biggest dealer in the state.

What state are you in?

our tech 2 is so out dated your lucky to read half of what is on the truck as it is. let alone with addition info, he is full of bs!

I've said it before and will say it again, it is possible. The new Bosch controller also has many new features I haven't sorted out so they maybe able to track event more now and I could tell event in the old ones as could GM if they wanted too.

By master techs with standard tech 2's with the 'normal' sofware? I doubt it.

I'm with Max Power.....most of the time is the average tech going to be able to find it? Nope.....but there is a chance that someone that realy knew what they were doing with some other trickery could. If you completely grenade your motor and it looks like mods were likely and the cause then they may be able to look deep enough to find it. But if thats the case GM shouldnt be paying anyway.

Ok, so what you guys are saying is I can use a tuner like Hypertech or edge evo and not have too much to worry about. I'm not out drag racing this truck but I'll use the fun pedal, I'm looking for more MPG's and some more power when pulling.

There are tons of guys who have aftermarket mods that remove them before going to the dealer for service and have no problems.
Basically just make sure everything is back to normal before bringing it in.
Out of sight, out of mind.

There are tons of guys who have aftermarket mods that remove them before going to the dealer for service and have no problems.
Basically just make sure everything is back to normal before bringing it in.
Out of sight, out of mind.

What he said. You stand a 99% chance of being ok

The Edge EVO and its harness pulls out easy enough, but what about the housing? I used the brackets and double sided tape, and I don't think its coming off very easily. . . .

There is a PID that stores the time that the engine computer last had it's CEL's and history reset, which most programmers do when the flash back to stock. If you are the paranoid sort, commit the following to memory:

"I took my truck to AutoZone to read the codes, and they reset them. When the check engine light came on again, I decided to let you folk take a look at it."

Also remove any timeslips, sled-pulling hitches, nitrous receipts, and of course the TUNER from the truck. Wash off competition numbers on the windows too.

If you blew the engine up because you were hot-rodding it, they will be able to tell. If your A/C is blowing warm air, it probably wasn't your 40HP Predator tuner that did it.

Also remove any timeslips, sled-pulling hitches, nitrous receipts, and of course the TUNER from the truck. Wash off competition numbers on the windows too.

:funnypost

Also remember that during certain failures the dealer is required to remove and replace the ECM, sending the old one back to GM.

My dealer can tell if you're running an edge or predator. Since they sell and install both of them, it's tough to miss them...

My dealer can tell if you're running an edge or predator. Since they sell and install both of them, it's tough to miss them...


Maybe I need to check other dealers in the area and see if they sell tuners, if so then that's where I'll take it for service when needed.

After seeing the gm certified mechanics in the shops I have been into (except Eric), they can barely change oil, but they sat through that 4 hour "how to use a torque wrench correctly" GM class and has a stamped certificate as ready to go.

Not sure why a tech would be so negative...Tuners/Programers etc+ possible broken parts+more work= job security....Hey if I am a tech the Mod away boy and gals, Mod away...:confused:

just figured id throw this up here: Subject: Identifying Duramax Diesel LB7/LLY/LBZ Overpower Engine Breakdown or Non-Function Due to Aftermarket Power-Up Devices vs. Non Overpower Engine Non-Function of Pistons, Cylinders, Valvetrain Components #06-06-01-007 - (04/04/2006)



Models: 2001-2006 Chevrolet Express,Silverado

2003-2006 Chevrolet Kodiak

2001-2006 GMC Savana, Sierra

2003-2006 GMC TopKick

with Duramax™ 6.6L V8 Turbo Diesel Engine (VINs 1, 2, D -- RPOs LB7, LLY, LBZ)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

General Motors Position On Aftermarket Power-Up Devices
Important: General Motors does not support or endorse the use of devices or modifications that, when installed, increase the engine horsepower and torque. Refer to bulletin number 04-06-04-054 -- Warranty Admin. - Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket).

Important: For further information on aftermarket power-up kits, refer to February 2006 Emerging Issues Course Number 10206.02D. In Canada, information on aftermarket power-up kits will be covered in the April 2006 TAC TALK program.

Aftermarket power-up devices are non-approved by General Motors. These devices are usually piggy-backed in the main engine harness or remain connected to the diagnostic connector to upload the calibration to the ECM. Recent warranty reviews of returned engines show engine breakdown or non-function due to power-up devices that are utilized for increased horsepower and torque. The following information will assist technicians in identifying overpower engine breakdown or non-function due to aftermarket power-up devices vs. non overpower engine breakdown or non-function.

Non-GM parts can alter the design of the vehicle. GM dealers need to be aware of the quality of parts being installed on vehicles. If failure occurs as a result of installation of sub-par parts, warranty coverage may be denied. Refer to Service Bulletin Number 04-06-04-054 Warranty Admin. --Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket).

Installed Power-Up Kit
Aftermarket power-up kits have become a very popular add on for performance-minded customers. These devices can add horsepower and torque and can add additional stress to the engine. These aftermarket calibrations take the Duramax™ powertrain outside of its design torque and horsepower rating. They do this by altering air/fuel ratios and injector timing, resulting in excessive cylinder pressure and temperature. When these calibrated parameters are altered, it will upset the design balance and can lead to a reduction of engine life expectancy. Generally, in inspection of Duramax™ engine failure due to power-up failures, two or more cylinders will be affected.

Installed Power-Up Kit
• Once installed, the calibration may mask itself with the factory original calibration ID and may remain the same.

• A Tech 2® will not positively enable you to identify the use of a power up device.

• Some companies that offer power-up devices claim increases of 150 or more horsepower and 300 or more lb/ft pounds of torque.

• A vehicle that is used to the power-up device potential 100% of the time will see earlier engine wear and breakdown.

• A vehicle that takes advantage of additional power, but on a less frequent basis, may not see premature engine wear and breakdown until later in the engine's life.

• A vehicle not pushed to its limits of the power-up device often may not encounter premature wear and breakdown until after the engine is out of warranty.

Duramax™ Powertrain Horsepower / Torque Ratings
The following horsepower and torque increase over the past years required new internal components to accommodate the increase.

• LB7 - 300 hp with 520 ft/lb of torque for model years 2000-2004

• LLY -- 310 hp with 605 ft/lb of torque for model years 2004-2006

• LBZ -- 360 hp with 650 ft/lb of torque for model year 2006

LBZ Improvements
To reliably achieve an increase in 50 horsepower with 45 ft/lb torque, the Duramax ™ diesel had to be revised in many areas. A few of the revisions on the 2006 LBZ were:

• New pistons with a revised compression ratio.

• Wrist pins that are larger in diameter.

• Connecting rods with added material to increase the I section strength.

• Engine block and machining changes.

• Cylinder heads.

Duramax™ Life Expectancy
The Duramax™ 6.6L V8 Turbo Diesel Engine is sold with a warranty of 100,000 miles/160,000 kilometers. The Duramax™ has been tested to survive upwards of 200,000 miles/320,000 kilometers. The Duramax™ powertrain is designed for reliability, peak horsepower and torque within its design limits. When a customer installs a power-up device, it drastically reduces the mileage ratings.

Important: Cylinder Wall Spotting (commonly referred to leopard spots) is from the induction hardening process of the top 1/3 of the cylinder wall. This is normal for the Duramax ™ Diesel.

Identifying Overpower Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown
When premature wear and breakdown is encountered due to an aftermarket power-up device, it has some very specific characteristics to the internal engine components. The following list will assist in identifying these characteristics as you tear down the engine.





• Pistons will be cracked in the lip area, or a hole in the pistons.





• Pistons can also be melted on the lip of the combustion bowl, or the top of the pistons can be melted.





• Crosshatch will be polished off the cylinder wall in the major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.





• Piston pin bore will show signs of scoring, the wrist pins will be discolored, and can have oil coking on them. The connecting rod bushing surface will have accelerated wear. The above graphic illustration shows connecting rod bushing.





• Oil coking on the underside of the piston between the wrist pin bosses.





• Signs of bearing fretting will also be noticed on the connecting rod and main bearing caps. Refer to the above graphic illustration for fretting of main bearing cap 1 and back side of connection rod bearing 2.





• Excessive heat in engine compartment caused by overpower device. Refer to above graphic illustration 1.

Non Overpower Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown
The following pictures show results of overheat, overspeed, low/no oil pressure or injector breakdown and how they differ from aftermarket power-up device premature wear and breakdown.

Engine Overheat
Overheat can be caused by a loss of coolant or a general cooling system failure. Some of the indicators of overheat are:





• Melted pistons.

• Head gasket breakdown or non-function.

• Warped cylinder heads.

• Crankshaft and connecting rod discolored.

Engine Overspeed Causes
If an engine has been run faster that design capability (redline), and has caused damaged as a result, it may be a result of one of the following conditions:

• Leaking or failed turbo oil seals.

• Oil evident in the intake runners and compressor side of the turbo.

• Starting fluid use or alterative fuel added to the engine such as ether.

Engine Overspeed Results
The following are indicators that an overspeed event took place:





• Valve train damage.

• Pushrods that are bent (4).

• Broken valve bridge buttons after cylinder head removal (2).

• Rocker arm tip damage (1).

• Dry or rusted cylinders from the use of ether, propane or nitrous oxide.





• Piston to valve contact.

• Cam gear pin shear.

Lack of Oil Pressure
Lack of lubrication causes rapid bearing wear or bearing to seize.





Bearing failure. Spun main bearings.

Engine Premature Wear and Breakdown Due to Improper Function of Fuel Injector
A fuel injector may fracture a piston or melt a piston but the damage will be limited to that cylinder only and all other pistons and cylinder walls are OK. In some cases hydraulic lock will occur on the suspected cylinder with an over-fueling fuel injector. Hydraulic lock on the suspected cylinder will cause a bent connecting rod. This can be verified with piston protrusion measurements.

Important: Copy aftermarket power-up kit check list when performing an engine disassembly investigation of overpower engine breakdown or non-function.

Aftermarket Power-Up Kit Check List
Piston cracked parallel to wrist pin.
• Piston cracked in lip area.

• Hole in piston connecting top of piston to oil cooling channel.

Melted Pistons.
• Lip of combustion bowl melted.

• Top of piston melted / missing.

Cross hatching polished off cylinder wall. Cylinder wall missing crosshatch on major thrust face of cylinder below ring belt travel.
Piston pin bore, Wrist pin, and Rod bushing.
• Scoring in upper piston pin boss/black discoloration/oil coking.

• Wrist Pin Wear.

• Rod bushing surface worn and discolored.

Carbon coking to underside of piston.
• Discoloration of underside of Piston.

• Discoloration and carbon coking buildup on underside of piston between piston pin bosses.

Accelerated rod / Main Bearing wear.
• Fretting on backside of bearing.

• Bearing surface distressed.

the pics didnt come up

I pick my New Truck up on the 2nd of January, I've read a lot on this forum and am ordering a cat back 4 in exhaust. I would love to put a evo in it just for the gauges but am a little leary of dealer finding the probe in the manifold. I don't know the dealer, but plan on doing all the service work myself. Has anyone been caught with a exhaust probe installed? Better yet, how would you explain to dealer the probe but not hooked to anything? (evo removed)

Covered mine with wire lume so it is not very noticable, hide the end when it is not hooked up.

After reading the Chevy bulletin above, I am curious how many miles some of you guys (and girls) have on Dmaxes since programmers, chips etc. were installed. Anybody got 100K tuned miles on one?


Common sense tells me that the higher the level of tune, the more likely you are to suffer some of those effects. I would think that a modest tune on the order of + 40 or 60 HP would take a bit longer to manifest itself, if ever. I would also think that regular maintenance or lack thereof would have just about as much influence.

P.S. I though the Allisons were the "weak link"??? :eek2: :confused:

My dealer is great......A buddy of mine blew his 03 Duramax up with 28,000 on it and brought it in with his Juice and attitude and bullydog stack and they told him he needed a new motor....so they put in a new motor under warenty didnt think twice about the programmers. Not sure what they think about missin kittys, i havent been in yet but they probly dont care about them either.

There is a PID that stores the time that the engine computer last had it's CEL's and history reset, which most programmers do when the flash back to stock. If you are the paranoid sort, commit the following to memory:

"I took my truck to AutoZone to read the codes, and they reset them. When the check engine light came on again, I decided to let you folk take a look at it."

Also remove any timeslips, sled-pulling hitches, nitrous receipts, and of course the TUNER from the truck. Wash off competition numbers on the windows too.

If you blew the engine up because you were hot-rodding it, they will be able to tell. If your A/C is blowing warm air, it probably wasn't your 40HP Predator tuner that did it.


Excellent piece of advice, Pat. Thanks.

I pick my New Truck up on the 2nd of January, I've read a lot on this forum and am ordering a cat back 4 in exhaust. I would love to put a evo in it just for the gauges but am a little leary of dealer finding the probe in the manifold. I don't know the dealer, but plan on doing all the service work myself. Has anyone been caught with a exhaust probe installed? Better yet, how would you explain to dealer the probe but not hooked to anything? (evo removed)

You tell them that you are in the process of installing a pyro gauge, and have not yet installed the gauge itself.

I've got the same equipment they do and I cant pick it up no way no how...

Does mrsdmaxallitech agree w/ that?......:eek:

Not sure why a tech would be so negative...Tuners/Programers etc+ possible broken parts+more work= job security....Hey if I am a tech the Mod away boy and gals, Mod away...:confused:
fixing your busted stuff under warranty is not job security it is half the pay we would be getting if it was customer pay. we have better things to do than to fix stuff you broke over revving and engine. im not against these items but if you play you should pay.

There is no need to worry about it, when you remove the tuner it is gone from the programming. Period

Traded my 05 in with 60,000 miles. Tested the last oil change, it was the best one of them all. They said the engine looked great and should last for many more miles if everything keeped wearing like this.The had AFE STAGE II,edge w/ ***. 4" banks no kittty,blocker & stick.

Have your oil check and you will know what is happpening with your engine.

sometimes the permanent grin and bald rear tires gives you away:D

The quote about missing kitty's...:D
The service reps and the diesel guy I take my rig in for ole changes all think it's a waste of metal to put a kitty on a diesel. All agree that the kitty is mainly a soot collector.

That's ok for me, because I drive like my grandpa so the kitty just keeps on collecting until some unsuspecting tailgater gets me mad, then I press the "soot collector discharge lever" all the way down and watch all the black smoke exit the rear of the truck.):h

:funnypost :lol:

:funnypost :muahaha:

Oh how fun that is...puts a grin on my face for hours afterwards!

fixing your busted stuff under warranty is not job security it is half the pay we would be getting if it was customer pay. we have better things to do than to fix stuff you broke over revving and engine. im not against these items but if you play you should pay.

A legitimate warranty claim should be covered, but it might be that all the shady customers and dealers who are covering abused trucks are hurting the honest people. If GM is to survive, it simply can't continue to do it.

It seems to me that if I installed a mod that caused problems it would be up to me to pay for the repairs. If I can afford the mod I ought to plan on making sure I can afford the repairs, too. As another person said - it's pay to play. For me to trick a dealer into making repairs would seem dishonest to me, but then I'm the kind of person that hands back extra change and points out to waiters that they forgot to charge me for an item. (True, some people think I'm stupid).

I can understand removing a mod if a dealer would not warranty any part of the truck if ANY mod was installed, but to hide a mod when you know the problem is probably the result of operating it beyond its design parameters seems wrong to me. When people do this, not only does it hurt the dealer, it increases MY costs when I need dealer service. Pay to play means the moder pays for his own play, not me or the dealer.

The people in the best position are those who buy dealer-installed mods. It is clear the dealer has the responsibility to fix anything in that case.

a legitimate warranty claim should be covered, but it might be that all the shady customers and dealers who are covering abused trucks are hurting the honest people. If gm is to survive, it simply can't continue to do it.
i agree 100%

I guess from what I am understanding that the moral of the story is that if a GM engineer or regional rep wanted to find out if you had used a programmer they could but it is alot of work. So are they going to do it for a $500 repair job probably not but for a $10k engine replacement they probably will. To boil it all down if you want to play you may be stuck with a big repair bill.

LBZ Improvements
To reliably achieve an increase in 50 horsepower with 45 ft/lb torque, the Duramax ™ diesel had to be revised in many areas. A few of the revisions on the 2006 LBZ were:

• New pistons with a revised compression ratio.

• Wrist pins that are larger in diameter.

• Connecting rods with added material to increase the I section strength.

• Engine block and machining changes.

• Cylinder heads.

Wow, I'd always heard the LBZ and the LLY were the same engine, just different tune. Guess the salesmen lied to me. :mad:

Chin up. The 2006 lly & lbz are the same, except for programming. I hope that made you day. Now the 2005 lly is different.

My dealer is great......A buddy of mine blew his 03 Duramax up with 28,000 on it and brought it in with his Juice and attitude and bullydog stack and they told him he needed a new motor....so they put in a new motor under warenty didnt think twice about the programmers. Not sure what they think about missin kittys, i havent been in yet but they probly dont care about them either.

:eek: This is a bad thing for two reasons.
1) Dealers like this make GM crack down on everybody.
2) Somebody pays for this warranty work---- consumers.

If you go in with a blown motor and stacked tuners, then you shouldn't get warranty, IMO.

The Edge EVO and its harness pulls out easy enough, but what about the housing? I used the brackets and double sided tape, and I don't think its coming off very easily. . . .
A downloader comes off easily enuff. But what a bout a juice/attitude w/ trippin mount? Would take a while to remove-pyro still installed, wiring to the overhead compartment, and doesn't the compartment insert need to be cut out of the console?
My dealer has seemed to be very good about not caring.Although I havent gave him a reason. the intake and exhaust stay on, the pup comes off. but all that work to remove the other I would reserve for a major warranty issue (over $1000 possible out of pocket)
On a side not my fiances' cousin had a 2002 5.3 replaced that had spun a main bearing-- it had a paxton s/c (Warranty)
I had a rear axle ring and pinion and carrier replaced on a 2002 Z71. Stock. Didn't seem to get all the mud off the frame. (Not warranty)

Wow, I'd always heard the LBZ and the LLY were the same engine, just different tune. Guess the salesmen lied to me. :mad:

06 LLY's and 06 LBZ's are the same. 04.5-05 LLY's are different.

The key here is have a good dealer and a great tech who also has a modded dmax. I have a great dealer and I don't pull a thing when I take my truck in. Mind you I also expect to pay for any repairs my mods may have have caused. I have spent over 20K in parts and repairs in the last 13 months or so for work on my truck. But I also get warranty work if it is clear my mods didn't cause it. Lying to your dealer is not good for anyone. As has been stated here, pay to play. If you can't then leave it stock.

Ive been into the dealer prob 3 or 4 times each time I just remove edge w/ attitiude. I leave my blocker plate in and keep my 4" cat less exhaust on...no one has said a thing yet! :)

I asked about running a computer chip and the master tech got a HUGE smile on his face and wouldnt say yes or no...he also drives a duramax that I have seen on several occasions blow some nice black soot so......;)

I had a PPE Xcelerator for my LBZ. i ran it about 3k no problems ..When i took it back for its service, i set it back to stock.. till then i never reflash it again.. After reading this i feel a lot better. but still it sux and i hate it
Dont get me wrong i wanted to hot rod on week/weekend, get better MPG etc, i know the first month i had a problem with my foot.,then i relaxed
But i want my rig to grow old with me.

fixing your busted stuff under warranty is not job security it is half the pay we would be getting if it was customer pay. we have better things to do than to fix stuff you broke over revving and engine. im not against these items but if you play you should pay.

Sounds to me like you don't like doing things in the amount of time the GM flat rate labor book allows. true, you can make more money by taking your time on a customer's job, and then charge them the time it took, rather then the time it SHOULD have taken. its just that GM won't pay lazy mechanics. but they DO pay for the amount of time that it should have taken, and the flat rate gives you plenty of time to get these jobs done.

if you clear the codes with the tech 2 code scanner or hand helt tuner the tech can not tell it head diesel mecanic is a friend total b/s if you clear it you can't find it

There is no way they can tell so no need to worry about it at all...

I was told not to drive my rig hot? Our ill start melting pistions.. To what point? One programmer alone can do such?
Oh FYI my first diesel truck.. So a little 101 will help?

I was told not to drive my rig hot? Our ill start melting pistions.. To what point? One programmer alone can do such?
Oh FYI my first diesel truck.. So a little 101 will help?

Probably talking about EGT, Exhaust Gas Temps. If they get too hot (1300+), yes you can start kissing your engine good bye.
That's why a pyrometer is a good investment if you starting adding a lot of power to your rig.
And yes a programmer alone can do this under the right conditions.

Thats why I shopped at a dealer that sells chips, intake kits, exauts etc...... The owner himself told me straight up ...... DRIVE IT HARD!!!:eek: if it breaks well take care of it. But as far as being able to tell if a tuner or other mods have been done, yes they can IF the tech knows what to look for?? The parameters the engine runs in are stored im memory. I know on Dodges this is very true....... when rail pressures are sky high and boost has hit twice what the factory programming allows they know its been tampered with. I just saw this senario on a newer dodge and the owner had to fork out for a new motor himself, the dealer didnt void warranty but Chrysler saw the computer history and said no way!!! Moral of the story is FIND A GOOD DEALER :D

Thats why I shopped at a dealer that sells chips, intake kits, exauts etc...... The owner himself told me straight up ...... DRIVE IT HARD!!!:eek: if it breaks well take care of it. But as far as being able to tell if a tuner or other mods have been done, yes they can IF the tech knows what to look for?? The parameters the engine runs in are stored im memory. I know on Dodges this is very true....... when rail pressures are sky high and boost has hit twice what the factory programming allows they know its been tampered with. I just saw this senario on a newer dodge and the owner had to fork out for a new motor himself, the dealer didnt void warranty but Chrysler saw the computer history and said no way!!! Moral of the story is FIND A GOOD DEALER :D


evening on setting 1?

evening on setting 1?

I dont know about that??? Prolly wouldnt show up much different than stock. Every dealer is different, when my 01 needed injectors a dealer told me they wouldnt do it cause the truck still ran????? Also they wouldnt cover it under warranty cause I didnt have my stock tires and wheels???? :eek: Yeah im serious....and no I never went back there again.

I've said it before and will say it again, it is possible. The new Bosch controller also has many new features I haven't sorted out so they maybe able to track event more now and I could tell event in the old ones as could GM if they wanted too.


Key Count /Flash Cycles.

I've said it before and will say it again, it is possible. The new Bosch controller also has many new features I haven't sorted out so they maybe able to track event more now and I could tell event in the old ones as could GM if they wanted too.

Key Count /Flash Cycles.

These statements are probably true regarding re-programers, but I still believe that boxes like the Edge leave no trace in the computer as the affect the information after it leaves the ECU.

JMHO however.

"the dealer didnt void warranty but Chrysler saw the computer history and said no way!!! Moral of the story is FIND A GOOD DEALER :D "


So if GM saw it you would be in trouble to then. :)

I have a buddy that had a Banks kit on his Dodge (which blew a head gasket) and the stealer cancelled his power train warranty.

jmac660, did he leave it installed when he took it to the dealer? If so then I would not be suprised.

And as for dealer being able to tell if you used a programmer well not sure. But if all the dealer can prove is flashcycles ect.. I say let them try to void my warranty. If the stock prorgam is there when they read the computer and they can't prove where the cycles and reflashes came from....let them try, they can't prove anything without hard proof.

jmac660, did he leave it installed when he took it to the dealer? If so then I would not be suprised.

And as for dealer being able to tell if you used a programmer well not sure. But if all the dealer can prove is flashcycles ect.. I say let them try to void my warranty. If the stock prorgam is there when they read the computer and they can't prove where the cycles and reflashes came from....let them try, they can't prove anything without hard proof.

like i said before if i set my ppe (setting 1 tow mode).. and enjoy it is that any harm to anything, towing too? The goal is more MPG.. maybe ill hope on the freeway and have foot problems :)
The set up i have wont work as well if it wasnt tune to setting 1or 2?

These statements are probably true regarding re-programers, but I still believe that boxes like the Edge leave no trace in the computer as the affect the information after it leaves the ECU.

JMHO however.

Harness boxes are undetectable. Once removed from the harness, they no longer exist, and the factory programming remains unadulterated.

Flash-Programmers with Bosch's new engine controller ARE DETECTABLE only by the key counts and timecodes of the flash in relation to the key on off cycles.

Dodge uses that system and sometimes tries to 'sweat' the owner for details. Of course, it is not 'proof' but they will try to make it proof if you let them. Then again, you can explain it as using a code reader to clear DTC's

So in the end if a you are a program user and need service and the dealer pressures you, just stand your ground and hell no!!

He left a little too much on it and the stealer used the easy button to teach him a lesson!

If a program is left in the ECM, pretty easy to tell, because the check sum changes when parameters are change. On the GM website is a list of possible check sum numbers for a certain vin number. Quick check with the tech II and see if the numbers are what they are supposed to be.

I don't think anyone will question the fact that if you forget to return to stock the dealer will/can find it.

--The question is can they tell if you DO return to stock prior to service?

I don't think anyone will question the fact that if you forget to return to stock the dealer will/can find it.

--The question is can they tell if you DO return to stock prior to service?
yes sir?!

Sounds to me like you don't like doing things in the amount of time the GM flat rate labor book allows. true, you can make more money by taking your time on a customer's job, and then charge them the time it took, rather then the time it SHOULD have taken. its just that GM won't pay lazy mechanics. but they DO pay for the amount of time that it should have taken, and the flat rate gives you plenty of time to get these jobs done.


That is a bunch of crap.. there are several labor time guides avaliable and if you look there is a substantial diffrence between warranty and customer pay . no dealer charges customer the time it "takes" they are charged flat rate time accordingly. (electrical diag is hourly). thats the flat rate game you win some you lose some. most warr labor times cant be beat. some can if its repetative. just like some recalls only pay .2 thats 12 minutes to bring the vehicle in go to parts wait in line install part put vehicle back out and do paperwork wow what a deal (for gm). so if I quote you a time and it takes longer for whatever reason the service writer isnt going to come out and say " sir we are sorry but its taking my tech longer than book time so we are gonna charge you the diffrence" . you would tell him to screw himself right? oh and btw i am not a "lazy mechanic" been in the dealer for 20 years that is something a lot of people cant say. the lazy mechanics are at midas and brake king doing all the gravy and ripping people off worse than dealers. poor quality parts and hack mechanics. ever notice you cant get out of those places without buying calipers. I think i have replace about 10 in my life. whats that say for them. anyhow my rant is over (for now)

That is a bunch of crap.. there are several labor time guides avaliable and if you look there is a substantial diffrence between warranty and customer pay . no dealer charges customer the time it "takes" they are charged flat rate time accordingly. (electrical diag is hourly). thats the flat rate game you win some you lose some. most warr labor times cant be beat. some can if its repetative. just like some recalls only pay .2 thats 12 minutes to bring the vehicle in go to parts wait in line install part put vehicle back out and do paperwork wow what a deal (for gm). so if I quote you a time and it takes longer for whatever reason the service writer isnt going to come out and say " sir we are sorry but its taking my tech longer than book time so we are gonna charge you the diffrence" . you would tell him to screw himself right? oh and btw i am not a "lazy mechanic" been in the dealer for 20 years that is something a lot of people cant say. the lazy mechanics are at midas and brake king doing all the gravy and ripping people off worse than dealers. poor quality parts and hack mechanics. ever notice you cant get out of those places without buying calipers. I think i have replace about 10 in my life. whats that say for them. anyhow my rant is over (for now)

I have an old friend of mine thats been a GM tech for 20 + years, you guys have been getting hosed for a while now.
So many people in this country think everyone else is cuttin a fat hog with their job and they should take pay and benefit cuts blah blah blah.... just wait, at some point somebody is going to find your particular profession and start in on it. Its not going to seem so funny when you have to work harder that you ever have for less pay and benefits.

Rant off !

man i got lost so if i plan on using a programmer to better the things i added below, will i wear and tear the motor over the years?..i plan on leaving it on tow mode??? i want to see how it runs to the parker az stock with gauges before i tune it to tow mode...

yes sir?!

Interesting? So if it was so easy to tell you were using a tuner, why is GM still fixing engines and trannys that have been damaged. If it is as simple as a plug in diag. It would be done on every claim.

Interesting? So if it was so easy to tell you were using a tuner, why is GM still fixing engines and trannys that have been damaged. If it is as simple as a plug in diag. It would be done on every claim.

They have to prove 100% without a doubt you caused the problem...

They have to prove 100% without a doubt you caused the problem...

That is what I am saying. But there seems to be a few people here that are saying a dealer can tell you were using a programmer. I know they can read key cycles and reflashes but who cares, this is not the point. The point is. If I reprogram my truck right now and drive it to the dealer and ask them to tell me if I was using a tuner or not, they will not be able to say yes and be sure about it. All they can do is speculate from the cycle count and flashes, ect.., this information alone they can't void anything. They can try but they will lose. Think of the number of times people go into a dealer with a computer/electrical issue and the dealer can't duplicate but it happens to you every 3-4th day. Guess what, it is a glitch and they will/do happen and that will be the reson the the oddities in the flash, and key cycles so it is not a tuner just a computer issue.:D Or I like the "how do I know I just drive the thing you built it"??

They have to prove 100% without a doubt you caused the problem...

Not excactly true. That is the wording of the law, but in reality they simply refuse to warranty. Now you have to make them prove it. That costs $$ that most can not afford. That's what they are banking on.

Also, as I recently found out, some manufacturers refuse to go up aginst GM in court even when you are right.

Interesting? So if it was so easy to tell you were using a tuner, why is GM still fixing engines and trannys that have been damaged. If it is as simple as a plug in diag. It would be done on every claim.

no you got me all wrong.. i was asking can they tell how many times you been reflashing it... i was regarding the question you sum up for me : im on your page.. i just want better MPG/juice with out paying for it later....:o:
i kinda got lost with all thats going on with this topic with everyone replys
it breaks my heart that my ppe is still waiting in my office waiting to be played with:grd:

:rockit: :rockit: :rockit: :rockit: :rockit: If it wasn't for the toys i have at the River.. im better off having an 12sec Zo6 with out the hammering out an diesel truck. Go Chevy !!!

I have been told my neighbor, a service manager for 20 yrs and a good friend of mine, the same thing. He also said that if you have onstar, they can get you there as well. don't mess with 'em, big brother will be watchin' and they are getting tired of paying for hot rodding tear-ups. :mad:
This guy has always taken care of my warranty needs and is a master of getting things bought off. I believe him, and I hate it because I had some goodies picked out. I'm gonna wait a while to see what transpires

OK - Once and for all! If they (GM) could, they would! NOBODY on this forum (48,000+ members) has ever reported that they went to GM and was denied a warranty claim because they "hooked up the Tech II and saw that I had a programmer installed".

Nobody - Nada!

No, but several have been denied warranty when their stuff was disassembled.;)

Also there's a lot of times the ECM must be sent to GM. Not sure what they do with it, but I've had the ECM changed when I dropped a valve, and when I lost a turbo. Neither was an ECM related failure.

There's been a bulletin posted that states they can't tell.
Rick dropped a valve, and burnt a turbo - both could be ECM related. They probably wanted the data log info when the faults happened.

I have been told my neighbor, a service manager for 20 yrs and a good friend of mine, the same thing. He also said that if you have onstar, they can get you there as well. don't mess with 'em, big brother will be watchin' and they are getting tired of paying for hot rodding tear-ups. :mad:
This guy has always taken care of my warranty needs and is a master of getting things bought off. I believe him, and I hate it because I had some goodies picked out. I'm gonna wait a while to see what transpires

-:t i want to play with my programmer.. oh no Onstar has a say too...
that means i cant:grd: even if i wanted too

They can tell, I have seen it happen, All this tech did was seen that the "FACTORY SETTING HAD BEEN CHANGED" That was on my truck, and no i didnot have my programmer in.

I have an old friend of mine thats been a GM tech for 20 + years, you guys have been getting hosed for a while now.
So many people in this country think everyone else is cuttin a fat hog with their job and they should take pay and benefit cuts blah blah blah.... just wait, at some point somebody is going to find your particular profession and start in on it. Its not going to seem so funny when you have to work harder that you ever have for less pay and benefits.

Rant off !


its already like that I make about the same as I did 5 years ago maybe less, making $18 then now I make $23 an hour now and every time I get my taxes done my accountant says "do you know you made $2000 less this year" I want to strangle her when she says that. used to do 60+ a week now struggle to make 45hours. something is wrong there. dont even get me started on benefits. or lack there of. and on the subject at hand the tech 2 wont help us tell if its hopped up the type of destruction does. GM may call back some ecm's because they can disect it much further than we in the field can.

Of course, my service manager buddy could have gone through a tough, year end warranty audit and the regional auditor could have fed him that as a scare tactic, who knows. When I get home from working in Alaska, I think I'm going to ease in to the dealership and snoop a little. Need to check and see if there are any new bulletins or campaigns out and go back and talk to the techs, see if they've been fed the same thing at update training.

[quote][/He also said that if you have onstar, they can get you there as well. QUOTE]




That's a scary thought!!

So, after all 10 pages, can the dealer tell about tuners or not?:D

So, after all 10 pages, can the dealer tell about tuners or not?:D

NO! unless they see it hooked up (Edge, banks) or the running program is out of GM parameter (predator, EFIlive, hypertech ect.)

like i said earlier guys, our tech 2 is such junk we can not even read stuff on the new trucks let alone tell if there is aftermarket parts. plus a programmer does not change the calibration it changes the settings on the current calibration!

like i said earlier guys, our tech 2 is such junk we can not even read stuff on the new trucks let alone tell if there is aftermarket parts. plus a programmer does not change the calibration it changes the settings on the current calibration!
what do you mean your T2 is junk maybe you forgot to use candi

next time I work on a truck with mods I am gonna do some looking into what is noticable or not, may be a while we dont see a lot with mods. we do have one guy that comes in with all kinds of goodies like edge and a purple trans with a very deep pan.

So, after all 10 pages, can the dealer tell about tuners or not?:D
No, not at their level - beyond the dealer level (field engineering) however they can download data that is retained in the ecm that is not available when viewed with the tech 2, trust me & please don't ask how I know.

Todd.:)

So I guess if you have a Brand New truck and want to protect your warrenty, it would be worth the extra money for a custom tune in a spare ECM?

So I guess if you have a Brand New truck and want to protect your warrenty, it would be worth the extra money for a custom tune in a spare ECM?

IMO if your going that far I wouldnt mod your truck at all..but thats just my 2 cents

if you have something like the juice that doesnt actually reprogram the ecu, it just piggybacks onto it there is no way that you could tell. right???

-:t i want to play with my programmer.. oh no Onstar has a say too...
that means i cant:grd: even if i wanted too
If you pull The On Star fuse while programming do they know?

if you have something like the juice that doesnt actually reprogram the ecu, it just piggybacks onto it there is no way that you could tell. right???

Harness boxes are undetectable. Once removed from the harness, they no longer exist, and the factory programming remains unadulterated.

Flash-Programmers with Bosch's new engine controller ARE DETECTABLE only by the key counts and timecodes of the flash in relation to the key on off cycles.

Dodge uses that system and sometimes tries to 'sweat' the owner for details. Of course, it is not 'proof' but they will try to make it proof if you let them. Then again, you can explain it as using a code reader to clear DTC's

:exactly:

If you pull The On Star fuse while programming do they know?

Ya.. Can they tell?

If you pull The On Star fuse while programming do they know?

there is no way onstar can tell if you have a programmer on your truck.

there is no way onstar can tell if you have a programmer on your truck.
Can't thay tell that you have interupted the bus line?

Can't thay tell that you have interupted the bus line?

no; the same thing would happen if your battery went dead, fuses blew, etc, so if something went funny in the data bus its of no concern to them. ;)

If your that para node may be you should leave it stock.
programmers are undetectable if returned to stock.
piggy backs like the edge always leaves something behind like velcro on the fuse block, hole in the exhaust manifold
for temp probe

Just because you have a pyro installed in your manifld doesn't mean that you are running a programer. I imagine plnty of folks runa pyro guage while pulling heavy loads even without the use of a programmer.....and that will be my story if I have to take my truck in for service. I n fact I have considered finding a cheapo pyro guage that will hook up to the Edge Evo pyro just for those type of vivits. Now the velcro...gimme some time to make up a story for that...

Just because you have a pyro installed in your manifld doesn't mean that you are running a programer. I imagine plnty of folks runa pyro guage while pulling heavy loads even without the use of a programmer.....and that will be my story if I have to take my truck in for service. I n fact I have considered finding a cheapo pyro guage that will hook up to the Edge Evo pyro just for those type of vivits. Now the velcro...gimme some time to make up a story for that...

Foot strap for the girlfriend? :cool_shad :naughty:

While at the dealer yesterday having the steering shaft replaced I was complaining about the fuel mileage and asking if there were any pcm/tcm software updates and the diesel service manager suggested I get a programmer to increase my mileage :eek: He suggested I get a Hypertech as they sold them there. I ask wouldn't that be an immediate void of warrenty he said as long as I didn't get carried away with upgrades and removed the programmer before bring the truck in they looked the other way :cool: . He said they have only voided once and it was obvious the guy had thrashed the truck. He didn't say if they could tell if a programmer had been installed or not. I would say from this conversation they can't tell as long as the problem isn't obviously programmer related.

I am by no means a computer guru, however as a Retired Trooper, I have seen when we confiscated someones computer in conection with a crime, such as child porn, no matter how the suspect altered of removed programs and documents. Something was ALWAYS retieved from the computer showing all activity. Why then with todays technology would GM not be able to capture everything that was done to the vehicle, via the computer?
Just a thought.
Steve

Your PC is designed to stores information that you give it, your truck PCM is a processor designed to run your engine & transmission so it does not have the capacity to store naughty things like your talking about. It sole purpose is to run your truck.

Yeah, I understand that, but wouldn't it leave imprints of what was done?

oh ya now we are getting somewhere!!! so the the boys on here with 12's rig :D Do they have any kind of warrenty? :) All i wanted is to play nice:)

Yeah, I understand that, but wouldn't it leave imprints of what was done?

No, but the timecode of flash would be the only giveaway.

The ECM is Flash NVRAM based (non volatile Random Access Memory) it keeps the coding stored even when power is severed. It has a finite storage capacity and is used because it can be re-written (flashed) many times over without degredation. Once flashed the previous coding is lost and replaced totally with new. As well, with no moving parts, it is many times more durable than a Hard Drive. the downside is that it is expensive, but on the horizon are fast flashdrive hard drives that may end up in your computer or on your vehicle one day.

Just because you have a pyro installed in your manifld doesn't mean that you are running a programer. I imagine plnty of folks runa pyro guage while pulling heavy loads even without the use of a programmer.....and that will be my story if I have to take my truck in for service. I n fact I have considered finding a cheapo pyro guage that will hook up to the Edge Evo pyro just for those type of vivits. Now the velcro...gimme some time to make up a story for that...

I just use really long zip ties to attach it to the crossbar, no velcro here.

The answer is NO, the dealer can not tell if the truck programming is altered, whether it was altered before or if it is altered right there at the time. I had my truck in with over 500 horses of tune in it today, the tech riding along with the the candi tech 2 monitoring had no clue period. If I would have stomped on it, sure the power and the smoke would give it away. But I didn't give it more than light throttle and it was funny watching them in action not detecting the tune.

If you leave programming in the computer and they send it off to GM then yeah, they can read it and see. Once scanned it is obvious, just like I can scan your ECM with EFI Live and then I can see your programming is altered.

The answer is NO, the dealer can not tell if the truck programming is altered, whether it was altered before or if it is altered right there at the time.


Hate to tell you this but your dead wrong. If the Tech had simply requested the CVN's from the scantool you would have been busted. Simple test that takes about 1 minute of time but since the Tech did not do it you got away with it. There is also other ways to check about programs but that is the simplest and every tech has been trained to check by GM.

I suspect a good idea would be to take the Service Manager aside (assuming you are not a teenbopper type that is flogging is truck to death racing) and ask him his position. I would assume that a reasonable Service Manager would follow the law and not void your warrantee unless he had additional evidence to believe you are mistreating the truck with the use of your programmer. If we owners want to be reasonable and I realize some don't, GM does not sell these trucks to be drag strip competitors! Fair is fair! If I have a programme and don't misuse my truck I expect to have a warrantee and will take them to court if they deny it! If I drive my truck like a 65 year old of 10th grade maturity than I have to pay for the fried tranny! As adults we have to be responsible once in a while instead of blaming everything on GM or the government! Sorry if some disagree, but ask your best friend to supply a warranty on your tranny for 3 years for $500 bucks! After he sees you flogging it everday he may pass! :D:

The question was, once it has had the high horse tune in the computer, run for a while, then reprogrammed back to stock programming, will there be any trace evidence that the ECM has ever been reprogrammed. of course they can see if the race tune is installed at the time of testing, but what about if its been flashed back to stock? then what?

Hate to tell you this but your dead wrong. If the Tech had simply requested the CVN's from the scantool you would have been busted. Simple test that takes about 1 minute of time but since the Tech did not do it you got away with it. There is also other ways to check about programs but that is the simplest and every tech has been trained to check by GM.

Ok, granted they may be able to tell if the programming is present when they are actively looking at it with the different programming in the computer.

But as the poster above says, the original question is can they tell if it was altered in the past by looking at the present.

I say no, there is no hard proof in the computer. ;)

Sounds like here's an opportunity for a good bet.

I'll get 2 ECM's, one OEM factory, never been reprogrammed, and one with 500rwhp tuning in it. I have a Tech2.

The bet would be that a GM diesel certified mechanic at my local dealership will not be able to tell which is which after I tell him one of them is tuned. He has a 50/50 chance.

What would be a good wager?

I would like to heard the results. That is a good idea Pat.

Sounds like here's an opportunity for a good bet.

I'll get 2 ECM's, one OEM factory, never been reprogrammed, and one with 500rwhp tuning in it. I have a Tech2.

The bet would be that a GM diesel certified mechanic at my local dealership will not be able to tell which is which after I tell him one of them is tuned. He has a 50/50 chance.

What would be a good wager?

:grd:

Ok, granted they may be able to tell if the programming is present when they are actively looking at it with the different programming in the computer.

But as the poster above says, the original question is can they tell if it was altered in the past by looking at the present.

I say no, there is no hard proof in the computer. ;)

There are several ways but the dealer techs are not trained to do it. If the factory engineering rep is called in they can tell. What I'm trying to tell people is that if your going to play around with your truck do not think GM is going to sit back and pay warranty work when you've been screwing around with it. If you going to play with it be ready to step up and pay for it. Just because a dealer tech doesn't do his job properly doesn't mean another tech will do the same, then what? When you increase the power above what GM has called for and tested for it's on you not on them.

cough cough bull**** cough cough

LOL!!!!!!!!!!:rotflmao::rotflmao:

I'll get 2 ECM's, one OEM factory, never been reprogrammed, and one with 500rwhp tuning in it. I have a Tech2.

The bet would be that a GM diesel certified mechanic at my local dealership will not be able to tell which is which after I tell him one of them is tuned. He has a 50/50 chance.

Why not take 2 ECM's to the Tech, one OEM factory stock (never touched by a tuner) and the other ECM that's been reprogramed, then returned to stock tune. It would be interesting to see if he could uncover the ECM that's had a non stock tune installed then returned to stock.

Why not take 2 ECM's to the Tech, one OEM factory stock (never touched by a tuner) and the other ECM that's been reprogramed, then returned to stock tune. It would be interesting to see if he could uncover the ECM that's had a non stock tune installed then returned to stock.
I like that idea!

There are several ways but the dealer techs are not trained to do it. If the factory engineering rep is called in they can tell. What I'm trying to tell people is that if your going to play around with your truck do not think GM is going to sit back and pay warranty work when you've been screwing around with it. If you going to play with it be ready to step up and pay for it. Just because a dealer tech doesn't do his job properly doesn't mean another tech will do the same, then what? When you increase the power above what GM has called for and tested for it's on you not on them.

I'm not saying it's right to use GM as your pit crew for your racing program, although some have done it.

I'm saying that if you go into the dealer to get the POS water pump, speedo cluster, or leaking injectors fixed, they are not going to know you ran a tuner.

If you crack a piston on a 150 shot of juice, they might go through the trouble to see if you dinked with the computer. Otherwise, it's beyond a normal mechanic with a Tech2 to catch it.

Or maybe I'm wrong. I can't tell with a Tech2 if a truck was tuned in the past other than the CEL codes have been reset recently. Most tuners will reset that marker, but so do alot things like Autozone code readers.

While I agree things that are not related should still be covered that's not what this thread is about. BTW the POS water pump can be damaged by running the RPM higher than stock so tuning with a raised Rev limiter does affect the pumps life. Maybe you do not know how to use all the functions of a Tech II and I'm sure you do not know how to run modified software in the tool either............. the factory rep's can and do!

While I agree things that are not related should still be covered that's not what this thread is about. BTW the POS water pump can be damaged by running the RPM higher than stock so tuning with a raised Rev limiter does affect the pumps life. Maybe you do not know how to use all the functions of a Tech II and I'm sure you do not know how to run modified software in the tool either............. the factory rep's can and do!

Water pumps go on these trucks bone stock. Kinda like the wheel bearings and speedo.

Drive your truck more, you'll find out, or talk to owners.

As far as the factory rep goes? I'll believe when I see it. I know a mechanic can't tell.

There are several ways but the dealer techs are not trained to do it. If the factory engineering rep is called in they can tell. What I'm trying to tell people is that if your going to play around with your truck do not think GM is going to sit back and pay warranty work when you've been screwing around with it. If you going to play with it be ready to step up and pay for it. Just because a dealer tech doesn't do his job properly doesn't mean another tech will do the same, then what? When you increase the power above what GM has called for and tested for it's on you not on them.

But WHAT can they tell Steve?

Drop all of the "you play you pay" part and morals, the topic is can they tell it was programmed, as in there is hard proof. Everything in red above is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Even being able to tell it was somehow programmed gets them nothing without them being able to say what was programmed in what way. Knowing only that "something" was changed is valueless for making accusations and they won't try it.

Having gone at it with GM I can't see where they can tell much of squat. My truck had tuning in it for 99% of it first 25,000 miles and GM had the truck for 7 months going over it with a fine toothed comb which included many inspections by GM engineers that they flew in from Michigan. This was all part of a lawsuit, so I would venture to say that if there were any hard proof they would have presented it at the hearing. They went to the trouble of taking pictures of nuts and bolts and other components to show that the truck had been tinkered with but not a peep out of them about any programming. They had a nice detailed damage assessment and very large picture portfolio of the cylinders and the head gaskets and the cylinder heads but their own conclusion was "no definitive evidence".

If your position is that they can only say that the computer was likely flashed but cannot prove in what way, fine say that, but that is not proof of anything. Owners answer is: "I got a tuner to correct the speedo for the different sized tires I bought so that I wouldn't get speeding tickets." Can they prove otherwise? I say no.

But WHAT can they tell Steve?

Drop all of the "you play you pay" part and morals, the topic is can they tell it was programmed, as in there is hard proof. Everything in red above is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Even being able to tell it was somehow programmed gets them nothing without them being able to say what was programmed in what way. Knowing only that "something" was changed is valueless for making accusations and they won't try it.

Having gone at it with GM I can't see where they can tell much of squat. My truck had tuning in it for 99% of it first 25,000 miles and GM had the truck for 7 months going over it with a fine toothed comb which included many inspections by GM engineers that they flew in from Michigan. This was all part of a lawsuit, so I would venture to say that if there were any hard proof they would have presented it at the hearing. They went to the trouble of taking pictures of nuts and bolts and other components to show that the truck had been tinkered with but not a peep out of them about any programming. They had a nice detailed damage assessment and very large picture portfolio of the cylinders and the head gaskets and the cylinder heads but their own conclusion was "no definitive evidence".

If your position is that they can only say that the computer was likely flashed but cannot prove in what way, fine say that, but that is not proof of anything. Owners answer is: "I got a tuner to correct the speedo for the different sized tires I bought so that I wouldn't get speeding tickets." Can they prove otherwise? I say no.


You say no, but do you have enough legal juice to feed a lawyer if you ever get in that situation?

Marking the ECM Flash count is not hard to do... and linking it with Key Cycles only exacerbates the problem.

Bottom line is that Harness boxes are the only 100% non detectable out there.

Having said that, I am unsure if GM's latest ECM on LBZ and up trucks mimics the 04.5 and up Cummins ECM as far as tracking flash cycles and Key Cycles. If it is then they can tell if the issue of warranty were to get pressed.

Just my .02, not trying to pick a fight!!!!!!

What I know for sure is They can tell the code was different in it , if you changed it prior to returning it to them. This has nothing to do with DTC's being cleared. I do not know for sure but I have found code that appears to store max fuel delivery as well as some other things so if I'm right they can tell that too. So if fuel delivery was raised above stock levels it gives them an out if they choose to use it. There is plenty of room for permanent storage that has more stuff than what I know it's for so do not think for a minute they cannot do a lot more.

You say no, but do you have enough legal juice to feed a lawyer if you ever get in that situation?

Marking the ECM Flash count is not hard to do... and linking it with Key Cycles only exacerbates the problem.

Bottom line is that Harness boxes are the only 100% non detectable out there.

Having said that, I am unsure if GM's latest ECM on LBZ and up trucks mimics the 04.5 and up Cummins ECM as far as tracking flash cycles and Key Cycles. If it is then they can tell if the issue of warranty were to get pressed.

Just my .02, not trying to pick a fight!!!!!!


Not trying to pick a fight either, I appreciate the input, everyone knows something different ;)

GM put the silver marking stuff on my connectors to catch the harness box. So even those aren't 100% safe, I am not so sure joe average would have noticed the markers. Also mine sat for a few weeks with no power as in batteries disconnected, dunno how well the ECM stores non flash memory without power. I dunno how the battery cables fell off :D

As for the legal end, yeah I have "the juice" for that, I already have been there and done that against them for breach of warranty, deceptive trade practices, false advertising, etc etc etc over my engine blowing up and the overheating. I sank a lot of time and money into it but end the end we kicked their azz in court. :D Now, I don't recommend this path, it is costly and time consuming, and many people can't afford to carry a rental and make payments while a vehicle sits for 7 or 8 months or more. But you can prevail if you have good lawyers and the money to bankroll it all.

What I know for sure is They can tell the code was different in it , if you changed it prior to returning it to them. This has nothing to do with DTC's being cleared. I do not know for sure but I have found code that appears to store max fuel delivery as well as some other things so if I'm right they can tell that too. So if fuel delivery was raised above stock levels it gives them an out if they choose to use it. There is plenty of room for permanent storage that has more stuff than what I know it's for so do not think for a minute they cannot do a lot more.

Ok, fair enough, neither of us know all of what they are capable of. You did let me down though because I thought you knew everything there was to know about these trucks. :)

I think if the right GM geeks got ahold of the ECM they could extract enough to make a case. No telling what they can extract if they were to put max effort to it. But for the purposes of joe average yanking the programming to go in for the cluster or water pump like McRat was saying ...... is the dealer technician going to detect it? No, they will not catch the programming play. Agree?

I think if the right GM geeks got ahold of the ECM they could extract enough to make a case. No telling what they can extract if they were to put max effort to it. But for the purposes of joe average yanking the programming to go in for the cluster or water pump like McRat was saying ...... is the dealer technician going to detect it? No, they will not catch the programming play. Agree?

Like I said it's all up to the tech at the dealership. If they play by the rules and check what GM says to check and give the warranty guy the right answers everything is fine, but on the other hand if the dealership has had a few to many warranty claims GM sends someone to look at things you might be SOL.

Drive your truck more, you'll find out, or talk to owners.

I drive one of my Duramax trucks every day and have plenty of miles on them to know what does and doesnot fail. The fact still remains when you raise the rev limiter and run the engine at higher than stock RPM levels parts are going to fail faster as well as be hurt by overspeeding the part. If you increase the power output parts are going to wear more. If you feel this is GM's fault because you screwed with it that's your problem but it should not be GM's.

... The fact still remains when you raise the rev limiter and run the engine at higher than stock RPM levels parts are going to fail faster as well as be hurt by overspeeding the part. If you increase the power output parts are going to wear more. If you feel this is GM's fault because you screwed with it that's your problem but it should not be GM's.

I suggest you read this board more or talk to a GM mechanic. My neighbor is 65 and drives like grandma and got the "drip". Common problem.

Yes, I know you like to argue around the corner instead of addressing the point. The point is, I've talked to lots of GM mechanics, and they all think your theory is daffy. Perhaps it's theorically possible for them to tell, but in real life on earth, it doesn't happen. Heck they can put a man on the moon, so I'm sure they "could" tell. But NASA landed on the moon, not GM.

This thread has had a few thousand people read it, and so far nobody has said "GM voided my warranty because they looked inside the ECM and saw it had been tuned." Don't you find that odd?

I think we lack overall info to decisively say what the overall capabilities are of GM themselves, so I agree with Steve mostly on the "push comes to shove" possibilities.

But, the average owner going to the average dealer with the normal equipment (which will be a Tech 2) can remove the tuning and be in the clear. Here is the TSB concerning this:

Bulletin No.: 06-06-01-007

Date: April 04, 2006

INFORMATION

Subject:
Information On Identifying Duramax(TM) Diesel LB7, LLY, LBZ Overpower Engine Breakdown or Non-Function Due to Aftermarket Power-Up Devices vs. Non Overpower Engine Non-Function of Pistons, Cylinders, and Valvetrain Components

Models:
2001-2006 Chevrolet Express, Silverado
2003-2006 Chevrolet Kodiak
2001-2006 GMC Savana, Sierra
2003-2006 GMC TopKick

with Duramax(TM) 6.6L V8 Turbo Diesel Engine (VINs 1, 2, D - RPOs LB7, LLY, LBZ)

General Motors Position On Aftermarket Power-Up Devices

Important: General Motors does not support or endorse the use of devices or modifications that, when installed, increase the engine horsepower and torque. Refer to bulletin number 04-06-04-054 - Warranty Admin. - Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket).

Important: For further information on aftermarket power-up kits, refer to February 2006 Emerging Issues Course Number 10206.02D. In Canada, information on aftermarket power-up kits will be covered in the April 2006 TAC TALK program.

Aftermarket power-up devices are non-approved by General Motors. These devices are usually piggy-backed in the main engine harness or remain connected to the diagnostic connector to upload the calibration to the ECM. Recent warranty reviews of returned engines show engine breakdown or non-function due to power-up devices that are utilized for increased horsepower and torque. The following information will assist technicians in identifying overpower engine breakdown or non-function due to aftermarket power-up devices vs. non overpower engine breakdown or non-function.

Non-GM parts can alter the design of the vehicle. GM dealers need to be aware of the quality of parts being installed on vehicles. If failure occurs as a result of installation of sub-par parts, warranty coverage may be denied. Refer to Service Bulletin Number 04-06-04-054 Warranty Admin. -Non-GM Parts and Accessories (Aftermarket).

Installed Power-Up Kit

Aftermarket power-up kits have become a very popular add on for performance-minded customers. These devices can add horsepower and torque and can add additional stress to the engine. These aftermarket calibrations take the Duramax(TM) powertrain outside of its design torque and horsepower rating. They do this by altering air/fuel ratios and injector timing, resulting in excessive cylinder pressure and temperature. When these calibrated parameters are altered, it will upset the design balance and can lead to a reduction of engine life expectancy. Generally, in inspection of Duramax(TM) engine failure due to power-up failures, two or more cylinders will be affected.

Installed Power-Up Kit

^ Once installed, the calibration may mask itself with the factory original calibration ID and may remain the same.

^ A Tech 2(R) will not positively enable you to identify the use of a power up device.

^ Some companies that offer power-up devices claim increases of 150 or more horsepower and 300 or more lb/ft pounds of torque.

^ A vehicle that is used to the power-up device potential 100% of the time will see earlier engine wear and breakdown.

^ A vehicle that takes advantage of additional power, but on a less frequent basis, may not see premature engine wear and breakdown until later in the engine's life.

^ A vehicle not pushed to its limits of the power-up device often may not encounter premature wear and breakdown until after the engine is out of warranty.

Like I said it's all up to the tech at the dealership. If they play by the rules and check what GM says to check and give the warranty guy the right answers everything is fine, but on the other hand if the dealership has had a few to many warranty claims GM sends someone to look at things you might be SOL.


Well, they did not display this ability when I sued them, and yes they actually flew in guys from michigan to inspect the truck. The truck had a 135hp tune in it from day #1 off the lot for TWO YEARS right up until it blew up. Not a peep out of GM about any programming play. In court they presented pictures of missing bracket bolts and of bolts that looked scuffed to suggest engine work, and pics of the pistons and such.

They lost I kept the truck and they forked over $34k along with a brand new engine, headgasket was the original problem.

One would think they would have used the computer trump card if they had it .........

I do believe that Rick Lance has also had GM take some of his ECM's for analysis, all of which were previously tuned. As far as I know they have yet to claim evidence of anything. Maybe Rick will give his input.....

I agree with Mcrat my boss man lbz duramax went to the dealer today because of leak and my boss is 70 and my brothers lbz needs to go to the shop for a water pump it just started leaking yesterday





I suggest you read this board more or talk to a GM mechanic. My neighbor is 65 and drives like grandma and got the "drip". Common problem.

Yes, I know you like to argue around the corner instead of addressing the point. The point is, I've talked to lots of GM mechanics, and they all think your theory is daffy. Perhaps it's theorically possible for them to tell, but in real life on earth, it doesn't happen. Heck they can put a man on the moon, so I'm sure they "could" tell. But NASA landed on the moon, not GM.

This thread has had a few thousand people read it, and so far nobody has said "GM voided my warranty because they looked inside the ECM and saw it had been tuned." Don't you find that odd?

They can not detect it my buddy blew his lb7 up and took it to the dealer he had the ppe hot +2 they could only tell he was pushing more fuel then what he should of by the spary pattern on the pistions so they didnt pay for that motor it came out of his pocket they got the new motor for it put it in hit the key and boom it blew up. The motor ran away on them because they forgot to get the oil out of the intake so motor number 3 and now he has ppe whole set up from there tuner to there tranny and he loves it

...... I do not know for sure but I have found code that appears to store max fuel delivery as well as some other things so if I'm right they can tell that too. So if fuel delivery was raised above stock levels it gives them an out if they choose to use it. There is plenty of room for permanent storage that has more stuff than what I know it's for so do not think for a minute they cannot do a lot more.

If this is the case then why when i run my BD Triple Dog does it not calculate fuel correctly? If the computer is logging fuel usage then it should not error in its calculation. So in the case of the BD on Extreme or CL I am showing way less fuel consumption then I am really using. Example on one full tank of fuel with CL my DIC had me using about 12 gal of fuel and when I filled up (not empty) I put almost 18gal in the truck? So if the computer is doing what you say and logging overfuel/max fuel the dealer would see a fuel consumption loss not increase.

I suggest you read this board more or talk to a GM mechanic. My neighbor is 65 and drives like grandma and got the "drip". Common problem.

Yes, I know you like to argue around the corner instead of addressing the point. The point is, I've talked to lots of GM mechanics, and they all think your theory is daffy. Perhaps it's theorically possible for them to tell, but in real life on earth, it doesn't happen. Heck they can put a man on the moon, so I'm sure they "could" tell. But NASA landed on the moon, not GM.

This thread has had a few thousand people read it, and so far nobody has said "GM voided my warranty because they looked inside the ECM and saw it had been tuned." Don't you find that odd?

Telling the truth about what can be done so people know prior to them having a problem is putting it as plain and clear as I can. I believe that is addressing the point as good as can be done. I cannot help the fact that you do not like the answer.

I agree with Mcrat my boss man lbz duramax went to the dealer today because of leak and my boss is 70 and my brothers lbz needs to go to the shop for a water pump it just started leaking yesterday

Parts fail but abusing them by running them outside of the design area is not GM's fault but a normal failure is.

If this is the case then why when i run my BD Triple Dog does it not calculate fuel correctly? If the computer is logging fuel usage then it should not error in its calculation. So in the case of the BD on Extreme or CL I am showing way less fuel consumption then I am really using. Example on one full tank of fuel with CL my DIC had me using about 12 gal of fuel and when I filled up (not empty) I put almost 18gal in the truck? So if the computer is doing what you say and logging overfuel/max fuel the dealer would see a fuel consumption loss not increase.

ECM Programmers change the calibration points in the code so that is why the fuel calculation displayed on the dash are off, it has nothing to do with storage of the maximum fuel delivered to the injector. Everyone can believe what they want, I've put forth several ways GM can tell if there is a tune in the ECM or if it has been tuned before. What the dealer tech does for testing and tells GM is purely up to the dealership. Getting to know your tech so he looks the other way never hurts too............

This thread has had a few thousand people read it, and so far nobody has said "GM voided my warranty because they looked inside the ECM and saw it had been tuned." Don't you find that odd?

:exactly:

In the real world over all the years the Duramax has been out I have NEVER heard of anyone being busted for programming that has been removed. I have only ever heard of being caught with the harness boxes. Why is that? :confused:

Not talking about engine damage that GM later attributed to possible power increases, I am talking about them actually pointing out programming changes. Please point me to the board or thread ANYWHERE that has the example of the programming catch (not the damage assessment) after the ECM was detuned.

Otherwise it remains a wives tale like Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster. :rolleyes:

Keep it on topic fellas...

Keep it on topic fellas...

Yea Guys, bunch of childish trouble makers.:cool: :rolleyes: This is a public forum where you can't, by any means, express your opinion or your post will be deleted.... GOT IT!?

Ok, I'm ready to be a Moderator now.

Yea Guys, bunch of childish trouble makers.:cool: :rolleyes: This is a public forum where you can't, by any means, express your opinion or your post will be deleted.... GOT IT!?

Ok, I'm ready to be a Moderator now.

Well with all due respect Mr. Future Moderator; I for one am happy the mod's choose to do such things. I'm tired of reading through 9 pages of whining, name calling, and snide comments to learn the outcome of the topic that was started.

Yea Guys, bunch of childish trouble makers.:cool: :rolleyes: This is a public forum where you can't, by any means, express your opinion or your post will be deleted.... GOT IT!?

Ok, I'm ready to be a Moderator now.

Sorry, but you failed your job application.;) A real moderator would have allowed your opinion as long as it was somewhat on topic and only deleted the BS posts.

That means I failed too, because I'm going to leave that last BS post of yours.):h

Well with all due respect Mr. Future Moderator; I for one am happy the mod's choose to do such things. I'm tired of reading through 9 pages of whining, name calling, and snide comments to learn the outcome of the topic that was started.
And Thank You!:)

Well with all due respect Mr. Future Moderator; I for one am happy the mod's choose to do such things. I'm tired of reading through 9 pages of whining, name calling, and snide comments to learn the outcome of the topic that was started.

This is nothing; you should've been around when the O'hing threads were alive and kicking. Its good to have drama, gives the forum more spice.

What color is the tip of your nose now?

Spice....?

What the hell's that?

You mean this isnt a communist site where the gov't sensors everything but propaganda? :rolleyes:

It is irritating that people take someones words and BAM its the absolute truth period!!!!

with a little click on the search button most people that are curious could look it up and see if this topic has been covered.;)

but all too often someone hears someone whisper that they saw Elvis and before you can blink its on a forum somewhere as the honest to god truth.:D

Spice....?

What the hell's that?

You mean this isnt a communist site where the gov't sensors everything but propaganda? :rolleyes:

Keep it on topic, fellas. How's that for moderating?

I'm going to leave this one on here just for future reference of what not to say on a PUBLIC FORUM.

Careful what you say. Look at my post count... El Diablo.

Since YOU called me out.......Are you done yet?

Since YOU called me out.......Are you done yet?

Whoa, how did I call YOU out? I simply highlighted a post and added it to mine. Sorry it had to be yours, but thats life. Is that all it takes to call YOU out? Seriously, how tall (or short for that matter) are you?

Geez....... cry me a river; hmm, reminds me of a song.

I was simply, deleting the b.s., like any other technical thread gets.....To keep it on topic....Sometimes, it takes a little nudging, to keep people on track....I'm sure you know this, as its not your first day....And if you want to get technical with this...., this a PAID FORUM, with free registration for its members as long as we follow the forums rules....So, with that said, maybe we can get back on track now. Is that alright with you?

And since this is a technical thread, all this b.s is probably gonna get deleted since the general public dosent want to read through one entire page of crap betwen two people.

I agree, there is a place for everything, a discussion can be taken to PM if there is a question of moderating, instead of interrupting the progress of a thread.

This is nothing; you should've been around when the O'hing threads were alive and kicking. Its good to have drama, gives the forum more spice.

What color is the tip of your nose now?


you know what would spice this place up....if you pulled your lower lip over your head and swallowed......being a mod is a thankless job...but with out the mods this site would turn into a cess pool....

Whoa, how did I call YOU out? I simply highlighted a post and added it to mine. Sorry it had to be yours, but thats life. Is that all it takes to call YOU out? Seriously, how tall (or short for that matter) are you?

Geez....... cry me a river; hmm, reminds me of a song.

I'm thinkin your song will be....na na na na....hey hey hey...good bye....:D

you know what would spice this place up....if you pulled your lower lip over your head and swallowed......being a mod is a thankless job...but with out the mods this site would turn into a cess pool....



I'm thinkin your song will be....na na na na....hey hey hey...good bye....:D


Man that was good.....I've got to remember that one.....

Anyway, I am very interested in this topic. I want to see which way to go with programming, either box or harness, fingerstick or not, etc....

I think its safe to say if you bye a second ECM and tune it, while leaving your original stock, there's nothing to find.;)

True...I did that with my gasser..Anyone know how much an LBZ ECM goes for?

first ,as for dealers seeing reprograming ecu's ,i don't think they can really see things and if they did they wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway,second, i used to belong to an other gm diesel site,and there was a guy that had 4-5 2001-2003 duramaxes he used for towing 3-4 car haulers from canada to florida,he was at a gm dealer he bought trucks at and he saw and got to see first hand a hand held tech 3 or 4 scanner made by hughes industerys,he got the serial and model numbers and a couple of pics ,i tryed to buy one from hughes ind.,they sent me a panphlet on it ,it was $14,000.00 and i had to be a gm dealer to buy it,this scanner could see 300-400 diff parramiters ,my gm tech2 ,and mentor and laptop scanner/program can only see 100-150 things,so i think gm can if they want to see many things a dealer can't,,heck their computer people built the trucks in the first place

This is an interesting thread,to say the least.!!
I am new to the Dmax but learning in a hurry..
On my previous powerstrokes once you flashed back to stock and cranked the engine 1 time you needed to kill the engine and remove the battery cables for 15mins or so to discharge 2 capacitors that stored memory.Some said that you had to touch the unhooked cables together to completely discharge the capacitors.I never did that and nothing ever showed up. I wonder if the Dmax has some sort of capacitors that store information that could be discharged?
After removing the cables on the powerstroke there would be a code for about 10 drive cycles which was a simple power failure code.

True...I did that with my gasser..Anyone know how much an LBZ ECM goes for?

I wouldn't say their cheap, Ill search Ebay and see what i can come up with...

My dads cummins powered motor home records everything for the life of the engine. He met a guy having an engine replaced due to excessive idling. The computer had it all spelled out. As in total hours that it had been idling, speed, all kinds of parameters. The guy never used the high idle feature. All data had been logged in the computer.

Anyone with enough money and good lawyers can do anything they want. Probably where we started down hill. I am sure GM has ways to know what has been done to a truck. It is just not big enough yet for them to play that card. Hell that might be cheap R&D for them. I buy programmer, I drive truck hard, I tear it up. GM sees what I did and makes improvements. Since no one likes to own up to what they do and take it to the dealer for warranty GM wins out. If everyone knew GM would read there ECM and void warranty on the spot we would not buy progammers. You guys are just part of their R&D.

Oh and the Onstar thing, I read about a rental car customer that was mailed a speeding ticket. Did not stand up though. You know they are watching when you go past 98mph. Your dot on the screen probably flashes red. We won't get into black boxes in most cars either. Just my .02

My dads cummins powered motor home records everything for the life of the engine. He met a guy having an engine replaced due to excessive idling. The computer had it all spelled out. As in total hours that it had been idling, speed, all kinds of parameters. The guy never used the high idle feature. All data had been logged in the computer.

Anyone with enough money and good lawyers can do anything they want. Probably where we started down hill. I am sure GM has ways to know what has been done to a truck. It is just not big enough yet for them to play that card. Hell that might be cheap R&D for them. I buy programmer, I drive truck hard, I tear it up. GM sees what I did and makes improvements. Since no one likes to own up to what they do and take it to the dealer for warranty GM wins out. If everyone knew GM would read there ECM and void warranty on the spot we would not buy progammers. You guys are just part of their R&D.

Oh and the Onstar thing, I read about a rental car customer that was mailed a speeding ticket. Did not stand up though. You know they are watching when you go past 98mph. Your dot on the screen probably flashes red. We won't get into black boxes in most cars either. Just my .02
If my dot on the On Star screen flashes every time I go past 98 mph...:D
I did however get my first call on the On Star last night....I was like WTF is that!! Then it hit me, a phone call, they need caller id cause I missed the call before I realized what it was.

If my dot on the On Star screen flashes every time I go past 98 mph...:D
I did however get my first call on the On Star last night....I was like WTF is that!! Then it hit me, a phone call, they need caller id cause I missed the call before I realized what it was.

Is the original speed limiter set that high? Though it was 92mph. And I know for a fact that the light does not blink after 98mph, hell it does not blink after 118mph.:eek:
-That first phone call thing is funny, I did the same thing. In the middle of a good song and ???? WTF ????. It was ONSTAR!! They were telling me to SLOW DOWN!!!! hahah Knew there was a joke in there somewhere.:rotflmao:

first ,as for dealers seeing reprograming ecu's ,i don't think they can really see things and if they did they wouldn't know what they were looking at anyway,second, i used to belong to an other gm diesel site,and there was a guy that had 4-5 2001-2003 duramaxes he used for towing 3-4 car haulers from canada to florida,he was at a gm dealer he bought trucks at and he saw and got to see first hand a hand held tech 3 or 4 scanner made by hughes industerys,he got the serial and model numbers and a couple of pics ,i tryed to buy one from hughes ind.,they sent me a panphlet on it ,it was $14,000.00 and i had to be a gm dealer to buy it,this scanner could see 300-400 diff parramiters ,my gm tech2 ,and mentor and laptop scanner/program can only see 100-150 things,so i think gm can if they want to see many things a dealer can't,,heck their computer people built the trucks in the first place

I cant find anything about this "tech 3" or "tech 4"

any links to info about it?

ill look back to see if i still have the ser and model numbers, ,it was made by hughes ind.,