Ok, now that I 'm over my shyness and posting, Does the resister in the b wire of the map really work? any down sides? What about the POT switch setup? I am referring to the mods Quantum Mechanic has done. They look very interesting. I just want to pull my travel trailer(29ft 9000lbs) at 65 on the highway with no over heating etc. Any other mods that really work? I thought about an IC, but $$$. 97 cc dually 4wd auto. Thanks

The stuff I've done really works. Check out this thread for more info: http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10883&PN=2

The boost fooler works but you need a frre flowing exhaust first.
More boost means more heat and you wil have to lay off the pedal at times or accumulate it.
I'm starting to like the idea of water mist in the exhaust and intercool the intake.

The boost fooler works but you need a free flowing exhaust first.
I have a 10K fixed and a pot switch but i don't use the switch much after reading IAT's with my scanner while accelerating with the switch on.
beyond that the fixed resistor is better anyway. pots are fragile and prone to break.
More boost means more heat and you will have to lay off the pedal at times or accumulate it.
I'm starting to like the idea of water mist in the exhaust and intercool the intake.
Edited by: quantum mechanic

RJ,


Do you recall your EGT at the end of The Climb?

I 've got the free flowing exhaust, what I need now is POWER. LOL I'm still debating on my next move, I'm not sold on water injection. The water can cause injecter failure and even break the tip right off in some cases. I'd hate to wipe out a cylinder.

QM what kind of scanner would you recommend for my 97. I want to read codes but also reprogram if possible.

Spindrift,


EGT climbed to 1450 F (pre-turbo) and settled back to 1400 F at the end of the run.

I'm not sold on water injection. The water can cause injecter failure and even break the tip right off in some cases. I'd hate to wipe out a cylinder.


I have not heard of this. Do you know of any cases of this? Or is it just a old wifes tale! I can't imagine why this would do anything to the injectors as the water is injected in the air stream and does not flow thru or contact the injectors in anyway. (Maybe a flash of steam in the combustion chamber from poor atomization? Probably just add power)Edited by: mdhorban

Water in the fuel can certainly wipe out your injectors, I don't see how it can have any effect added to the air intake.

I can give you 15000. reasons why I'm not sold on water injection. ($$$) 500 horse Detroit Diesel with intercooling, water injection and propane. Wiped out the #5 sleeve and piston, and ring, etc. Never got to the propane, just the water. I'm sure newer systems might work better, but what kind of nozzle would you use to inject water, etc. In NO2 systems the more holes in the injection plate the better, I would be concerned about the pressure in which H2O is introduced to the system. NO2 is best used at a constant pressure. Alchohol as an additive tends to reduce lubrication in the cylinder although it will definatly cool intake temps. I like non refillable power, like turbo's, superchargers, etc. Having to refill water, N2O, etc, always seems to come when you need it most. Just my personal opinions, but to set up water right, I think you would do better with an intercooler.

The boost fooler works but you need a frre flowing exhaust first.
More boost means more heat and you wil have to lay off the pedal at times or accumulate it.
I'm starting to like the idea of water mist in the exhaust and intercool the intake.






Why would you inject water int the exhaust?

Ok, now that I 'm over my shyness and posting, Does the resister in the b wire of the map really work? any down sides? What about the POT switch setup? I am referring to the mods Quantum Mechanic has done. They look very interesting. I just want to pull my travel trailer(29ft 9000lbs) at 65 on the highway with no over heating etc. Any other mods that really work? I thought about an IC, but $$$. 97 cc dually 4wd auto. Thanks





2 minute install, no wires cut, fine resolution adjustment:





http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=44

If you don't like water injection then you will need an intercooler to get decent power. Similar results with no maintenance.

I beg to differ, intercoolers are nice alright, but hardly justified on an engine that stays under 10lbs boost. Mine makes more than decent power without either system.


Has anyone got readings for IATs w/ and w/out the intercoolers installed? Most of the ones I've seen guys running on here seem pretty small to make much difference.Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

Kennedy chime in here, but no more than 30 degrees above ambient is pretty good, if you ask me.


223 hp and 428 lb-ft at the wheels. Can't get there without intercooling, I tried.

You've hit the nail on the head, TDG - charge-air coolers do not make economical sense on a light truck.


Many complaints have been posted about the waste of money for the cooler, with little improvement over stock.


In most every case, it was a 1500 series, not used for towing, hauling, etc.


At ~7.5psi Boost, light load, IAT seldom rises above 180deg.


Put a load on it - tandem-axle camper, etc- hit the road, and ~7.5psi can quickly hit 220deg on hills, grades, etc.


PCM drops Boost and fuel at 237deg IAT - not much margin there, when getting the load over the hump is important.


Many other posts reflect great improvement.


Those folks usually drive the heavier vehicles, use them for hauling, towing, etc.


120-130deg IAT at 10-15psi Boost makes the grade, improves mileage, lowers EGT, ECT - all for only 1500 bucks, or so.


My 8500lb truck, before c-a cooler, factory chip, June '04 : 7.5psi max, 220deg IAT max, 1000deg EGT pre-turbo, 2185rpm, 65mph slowing.


After c-a cooler, Heath chip, July '04 : 12-15psi max, 100-130deg IAT, 800deg EGT max, 2185rpm, 65mph steady.


Same route, fuel, load, a-c burning the whole trip.


Cool the charge, pack more O2 in with the fuel, and the engine responds.

I Agree with GMCTD WMI & IC are low bang for buck performance adders to daily drivers, but start towing heavy well worth the $$$ for longevity & power.


If you have a hole in your pocket (or "need"http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif for more power) do IC or WMI, save this mod for last or if boost fooling above 7-8 psi boost, where even in a light loaded truck this is detremental to longevity without WMI or IC and sustained operation above 7-8 boost. Might be some disagreement on when to do this, this is my recommendation to save for last after all other mods completed.


I will add this as they used to say on the old Saturday Nite Live skits, Bazeball been bery good to me,


IC been bery bery good to me, since I can't afford a DMAX IC was a bang for buck mod I could justify.


Edited by: Turbine Doc

As IAT's rise to 150-180* with low boost truck(7-8 psi) as JD says, I saw the need for an intercooler. I saw same results with Tech II.


Granted, 1300 is a bit much to swallow at first. But now I couldn't be happier. I want the coolest air possible going into the intake manifold.


If I had a 1500 series truck, I would still want an IC. I would have done what Tim did.


IC is maintenance free and can only help. Anybody what NHRA Pro Stock? See those big hood scoops?


Now I want to add a little alcohol/water to the mix...Maybe 10-20* above ambient temps?


Yeah, what the hell does water in the exhaust do?Edited by: Billman

Ronniejoe,





Your comments on the intercooler upgrade echo those I hear after most every sale. Best thing they had ever done. Now the SMALL coolers do not work nearly as well hence the lackluster response.





My truck would hold within 30° of ambient if not closer. With teh small cooler, I could hit 80°+ over ambient on a simple 1/2 mile WOT run and cool ambient temps.





EWith the big cooler, the only time IAT crossed 120° was hot soak. Before I intercooled, I would burn my hand on the hood latch. After, I could lay my hand in the INTAKE shortly after a flogging...








PS Ron: I'm working on getting a cable for my laptop program so you can monitor AND record in real time. If you have speakers, it will even warn you of out of range readings...Edited by: Kennedy

ALL the post's in this thread are great, thanks for the replies. Maybe I'll pony up for in IC after all. The boost controler looks really cool, do you have a setup that I can control from the cab? Do I need anything else? I feel some spending coming on....http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Pretty much for me it's a set & forget I haven't changed my setting since installing it, a fixed resistor will do the same, but does not allow you to find the "sweet spot" that works best for your ride.


Underhood variable resistor (pot.) as JK sells, is more than adequate plug & play, if you want to make your own that can be done; also more work on your part, what is your time worth or your confidence in your DIY capability.


Advantage of JK's pot. BH Turbo Master: on non reflash PCM or chip no codes,


Advantage of BH Spring control TM: no vaccum requirement


I have both; with my reflashed PCM jury still out at this point, I'd say for me pretty much even, maybe a little more advantage on JK pot. control too close to call.


I ran the JK control until it died on me, running TM now. need to fix it before I decide which one to stay with had to really hog down TM spring to get same boost output as with JK control.


I'm not sure how long TM spring will last compressed this much. 3/4" vs 2-1/8" as recommended in TM install instructions for 7 psi boost, non IC/WMI.


I'm netting 13-15 psi peak boost hogged down TM, 11-12 during sustained heavy tow

TDoc,

are you saying that you can convert to a mechanical boost/wastegate control and don't need a vacuum pump then? That is, could I use JK's TM mechanical wastegate control on mine?

I would probably have gone to a mechanical control rather than getting a new vac pump, but I thought the mechanical control wouldn't fit ...

Bill Heath markets the Turbo Master, John Kennedy markets the Boost fooler/controller.


You can run TM only with non reflash PCM/chip but it has been known to set a code if boost is out of expected range the PCM is looking for; hence "fooler" that lies to PCM so it does not know turbo is making a lot of boost or fails to clip to acceptable level that makes PCM happy.


Reflashes say ignore code give more boost unless IAT is out of range or other "unsafe engine condition", not sure which comes 1st in GMs algorithms clip boost or fuel or both at same time, but with a TM only control PCM has is to clip fuel.


This is where I'd say JK control has leg up as you can better tune the fuel/boost clip point, best for broke truck and no vac pump would be both IMO, if vac is functional JK control is all that is needed.


The last on PCM boost/fuel clipping & control is partly conjecture on my part the GM functional description of how this relationship works is pretty vague in my shop manual.


I've been looking for a GM 6.5 training manual to verify my theory but have had no luck yet.

Had a chance to scrutinize the 6.5 EFI training manual - it's same material printed in shop manuals, just sequential, not scattered about.


Meat of the course must be delivered in the classroom, by instructor\tapes\slides, etc. Manual leaves a lot to be desired.


Disappointing, to say the least.

John Kennedy also has a mechanical boost control, but I don't know if it would fit to my turbo charger. I didn't know about Bill Heath, though, so I got confused.

My vacuum pump is gone, makes no vac at all now, and I already ordered a new one. But I like the idea of getting rid of the fragile vacuum setup very much, so I wonder if I can/should convert to mechanical control, if I can change my order.

My SES light has come on since there's no vacuum at all --- it didn't while vacuum was minimal. With mechanical control and no vacuum, I'd have to do something about that --- as I don't do anything illegal, I'm supposed to have a working EGR vent.

So, which way would you go with a broken vacuum pump?

My bad Olee JK does market TM for early 6.5 GM 1-4 turbos/OBDI, yours is OBD II GM-8 I'm pretty sure; I don't know if JK does a TM for OBD-II GM-8 as well.


Since Authorities over there so anal about keeping emissions equipment functional, I'd say go with the new vac pump as you need it to operate EGR, and JK electronic boost control when not illegal does add performance and can be removed in < 2 minutes to remove opportunity for someone to question legality of your mods. (as Bart Simpson says "You didn't see me-I didn't do it" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif ) It's also a little longer to un-do a TM install.


What led you to deduce vac pump was wholly gone, also I think I remember a thread over on TDP that the pump was repairable, any dual site posters recall that info?Edited by: Turbine Doc

Moondoggie repaired his with a piece of inner tube, but that was because only the diaphragm was bad. My original vac pump chewed itself up inside.

TDoc,

you´re right, as far as I can tell from the connector under the dashboard, electronics is OBD-II, and the turbo charger on the pic on JK´s website with the mech control on it seems to look subtly different from mine.

Bart Simpson is a nice guy, sometimes ;) Authorities are usually not ...

The vac pump, you can see how things turned out on http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12360&PN=1 and on http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12176&PN=2.

The error codes I´ve seen make sense now, ihmo:


P0404: no vacuum, no EGR (probably toggles SES light)
P0406: EGR sensor on hi voltage either because of no vac and/or broken wires on EGR solenoid
P1656: broken wires on wastegate solenoid


Due to the now totally broken pump, I´m driving around with the wastegate fully open, and the engine actually runs better than with the insufficient vacuum I had all the time before. I´m lacking even more power, of course, but the wastegate always tackling loudly must have had some very disturbing effect, like varying boost pressure too much to let the engine run smoothly.

As soon as the new vac pump arrives (if I don´t get a mech control), I´ll fix that first, and the codes/SES light should go away. If they do not and the wiring and the solenoids are ok, things might become difficult ...

I prefer to leave the boost controller set. It will only take a couple of tweaks and you are done.





As for wastegate control, I prefer the vacuum system. Sure Vac pumps are expensive, but they last 100k plus. Having mechanical control allows for compensation for elevation, AND boost control is based on BOOST not just drive psi...





For convenience, I offer the vac pump with a new pulley installed. Saves taking it in to have pulley swapped...

FYI,


Pulley puller (funny, huh?) kits are available at CarQuest. Easy swap job.

John for clarification did you mean to type electronic/vac allows for atmospheric input not just PSI gage setting or am I "bakerds" in the way I read it.

Injecting water into the exhaust side of the turbo would "cool it".
It would reduce the heat of the turbo and the exhaust gas.

You need the heat energy at the turbine to make the compressor spin which is why turbine blankets exist, a fine balance is needed when turbo-ing. big compressor wheel bogs turbo, big turbo wheel overdrives compressor, too small a wg adds backpressure, too open a turbo adds lag.


Compressor/turbo mapping is a science + some trial and error from those that have gone before. Wildcatting R&D works but not most effective way to R&D, wildcat R&D tends to break a lot of stuff before the solution is found. Edited by: Turbine Doc

In consideration of turning the turbine, injection would come after that.
GMCTD says that above 2500 RPM backpressure on the turbo is greater than boost.
Cooling the exhaust could reduce the volume and heat of that pressure.Edited by: quantum mechanic

Seems to me best way to accomplish what you are thinking of is of to bigger turbo but there goes the dilema again, more grunt less driveability, I think GM has turbo wise, wrung out about all the 6.5 can gain and still bev driveable, and collectively members here and elsewhere have wrestled out bolt on stuff, next is going into the engine, I doubt you could spray/carry enough water to do what you are thinking, considering the sheer flow volume of the exhaust you are trying to cool but give it a try let us know how you make out.

TD,
Can you imagine a custom exhaust manifold that fit two turbos?
One stock and a one big one, side by side with a solenoid controlled buttryfly like the exhaust brake.
At low RPM (600-1500) stock turbo functions, butteryfly diverts gas from big turbo.
Above 1500 Rpm butteryfly is switched to divert flow into both, and then above 2000 RPM big turbo only.
This is my low tech version of a variable rate turbine. Best of both worlds.

Why cool the exhaust and add density to it if the turbo is too small already???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

Why cool the exhaust and add density to it if the turbo is too small already???http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif
The GM 3&4 turbo I'm running is a hot S.O.B
Cool the turbine, you cool the intake.
Increase the density of the exhaust and volume is reduced accordingly
Reduce the volume and tempature and you reduce the backpressure on the turbine.
Emissions test would be interesting to see the chemistry of the water mist and exhaust.
This isn't jet science but close.

Ideal injection point is in the turndown spraying toward the turbine wheel/ waste gate.
I condensate 10 gallons of water a day running the a/c
Water would serve heat best under increase load.
solenoid could limit spraying to EGT above 2000 deg F.
gmdtd was kind enough to donate an EGT guage.
I will be able to collect some results soon.
Edited by: quantum mechanic

Introducing water to a red hot exhaust would probably break something, and I don't think you will get the cooling effect you are looking for.

I'd like to find out, one way or the other.
If I break something (turbo) I have a spare on the '93

you mean with all the airflow improvements you've done you still have a heat problem??? do you still have the dual breather setup installed?

No,
I couldn't take the occasional whiff i'd get of oil fumes plus oil on the engine.
I put the CDR hose back to the turbo and I have a breather on the oil fill.

TDG - QM lives on a farm, lots of extremely dusty environment where he drives.


All he's gonna net from those chrome doo-hickeys where the CDR is engineered to be, is huge quantitys of that dust into the crankcase.


I drive around town here with windows down, no ac - helps acclimatize me for working out in the heat\humidity. My truck is an on-going r&d project.


The amount of dust that collects inside the cab is astounding - it's as if the interior is negatively charged, like one of those ionizing filters.


And that's on Houston streets, no off-roading, day-to-day, every day.


I'm fairly certain you and others would not want that abrasive material mixing with the crankcase oil in such an expensive engine, where the meanest rebuilt short-block is 3500 bucks.


Check the micron-level filtration afforded by those 'if it don't go, chrome it' wonders.


Hook your CDR back up - prevents leaving oil puddles every where you've been.


Want cooler air into the compressor?


Run some ducting up to the front bulkhead - always a high pressure front there, anytime the vehicle is moving.


Don't believe it?


Stick your hand, palm forward, out the window at 30 - 45- 55 - 70 mph.


Provide a path - you can collect and direct it.Edited by: gmctd

Dual breathers are only vents, theres positive pressure behind them no air goes in...


but the way QM has his set up now will create a problem, breather on the intake will draw air in when the engine is under load, you really need to either run both or neither.