Hydrogen peroxide is a close relative to water. The difference between the two is that this water has extra oxygen and energy stored with it.


If you could inject concentrated peroxide into an engine, when it reacts, it will release steam, heat, and free O2. Think of it as a water/nitrous combo.


I'm not sure if hot diesel oil will catalyize it though. Normally when they use it in rocket engines, they uses either alcohol, RFNA?, or just shoot it at a silver screen to release the O2. OPPSS, did I forget to mention the same stuff that you use to clean cuts is used in the rockets you see at the dragstrip running exhibition passes?


It's reasonably safe, not much more dangerous than gasoline or methanol. It can cause burns on skin though. You must avoid contaminating it with reactive metals or chemicals.


Any thoughts?

It's reasonably safe, not much more dangerous than gasoline or methanol. It can cause burns on skin though. You must avoid contaminating it with reactive metals or chemicals.
Any thoughts?

Yes, in the 95-97% pure form used in rockets it is extreme unstable and very dangerous to handle. The 3% stuff you by in the drug store is mostly water. I would prefer to be far away from a source of high concetration h2o2.

Jim

You know if you bring "Rocket Science" into making power in a diesel I'm buying a Gasser!





Mac http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Peroxide in concentration can be a handful. It is in a constant state of decomposing and if it comes in contact with a catalyst(SP?) it can be explosive. Similar to a steam explosion. The disinfectent H2O2 is very dilute. I think on the line of 1%. Peroxide motors use 80-90%

The real problem is catylizing the Peroxide at the right time. When it breaks down it generates a whole lot of steam and free O2 but simple heat and pressure will not do it. The heat from the decomposing Peroxide is what lights off the alcohol in the rockets.

So, as a pure intake injection, squirting H2O2 in without catalyzing it will be about the same as just water. If it reacts with the aluminum intake, you will producing heat, water and O2. Not what you were after.

Direct injection into the chamber through a catalyst would be interesting!

Yeah, by "not dangerous", I mean that it is non-flammable, non-explosive (in a pyrotechnic sense), does not need to be pressurized, and does not give off harmful burning products.


Less dangerous than compressed O2, but more dangerous than nitrous.


Probably not practicle unless the compression and oil will decompose it. If the combustion process decomposes it, it would ROCK. Not sure if aluminum will catalyze it, if it does, it would be hard to inject.

First Duramax truck on the moon ?? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

How about somehow injecting Ammonium Nitrate into the intake, we all know how good ol Ammonium Nitrate and Fuel Oil seem to get along http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif.

Maybe the first aluminum diesel cylinder head on the moon.


You would probably have to test on dyno with a bottle of 25%, 50%, and finally 90% if the first two tests showed increases.


Unlike propane or methanol, it should not cause any more engine damage than normal water injection would. While it is capable of building cylinder pressure, is not capable of pre-ignition.


If my math is correct, it supplies at least as much free oxygen as liquid nitrous, if not more. It would have a cooling effect on the intake charge, but would act like both a fuel and an oxygenator once in the combustion chamber, by releasing steam pressure and 02.

how bout just pure o2........cutting torch........on wheels........cheaper than nitrous......

I think there's some corrosion/erosion issues with the aluminum engine parts. We used concentrated peroxide for hydrogen control in submarine reactor plants and never exposed anything but stainless steel or glass/ceramic to the concentrate or diluted injection aliquot. It's a serious oxidizer that will rapidly oxidize and corrode some materials and I seem to remember that aluminum was one to avoid.

how bout just pure o2........cutting torch........on wheels........cheaper than nitrous......


It will burst into flames if there is any carbon near where you inject it.

Someone should PM Cover Carter Kraft what ever his name is to get Quad on this .I think you guys are on to something. Since where on Air anyone have a turbo update ,or did it fly through the hood.

I think there's some corrosion/erosion issues with the aluminum engine parts. We used concentrated peroxide for hydrogen control in submarine reactor plants and never exposed anything but stainless steel or glass/ceramic to the concentrate or diluted injection aliquot. It's a serious oxidizer that will rapidly oxidize and corrode some materials and I seem to remember that aluminum was one to avoid.


That probably eliminates it. If it oxidizes aluminum, it will erode the combustion chamber and piston.


Seemed like an interesting idea. Not feasible though.

Peroxide doen't erode the aluminum like acid so much as when it catalyzes it produces steam which blasts the protective layer of oxide off of the aluminum.If the actual layer of Peroxide is minimal, the effect should be nill.

Did some research and peroxide does not decompose till > 1000 C. Higher pressure actually increases the value. Sigh, it will not decompose in the combustion chamber from the heat. I wonder if there is a catalyst that could be added to the fuel? On injection, it would help decompose the Peroxide.

One other thing from my research is that nearly all of the catalysts used are consumed fairly rapidly from the phsical beating they take from the violent peroxide decomposition.

Peroxide doen't erode the aluminum like acid so much as when it catalyzes it produces steam which blasts the protective layer of oxide off of the aluminum.If the actual layer of Peroxide is minimal, the effect should be nill.

Did some research and peroxide does not decompose till > 1000 C. Higher pressure actually increases the value. Sigh, it will not decompose in the combustion chamber from the heat. I wonder if there is a catalyst that could be added to the fuel? On injection, it would help decompose the Peroxide.

One other thing from my research is that nearly all of the catalysts used are consumed fairly rapidly from the phsical beating they take from the violent peroxide decomposition.



In a rocket engine, the silver screen is good for only 20 hrs of operation on British engines. But that is a rocket engine. I imagine a silver plated piston might work for much longer, but is really impractical. The whole idea of this is a "simple" supply of oxygen that won't damage the engine.


I'm not absolutely sure that the hot hydrocarbons in combination with the small aluminum chamber would not be enough to catalyize it.


A dyno would be the only way to tell. At least easily.

An Oxygen probe on the exhaust will do the trick. I would have to go back and calc at what dilution, but you should see a marked difference at low H2O2 volumes.

For the Rockets and such, screens were set directly in the flow of liquid Peroxide were it would "flash" into Steam/O2. Screens is actually a little bit of a misnomer. They resembled the honeycomb like in a Cat Converter. The surface area needs to be rather large. The Peroxide must contact the catalyst to decompose at any usable rate.

I don't know how a peroxide vapor would interact.

While we are on the subject of exotic fuels, has anyone ever tried mixing a little Nitromethane in with there diesel?

I believe Snow sells Nitro for his Injection kit. I have not tried it in mine just good old 50-50 water/methanol.

I thought about that. Gallon per gallon, diesel oil makes more BTU. Nitro works because it burns at 1:4 instead of 1:15 F/A stoimetric ratio. If you had a surplus of air, nitro works very well. Apparently the Dmax does not have a surplus of air.

www.pricechemical.com (http://www.pricechemical.com)


These folks sent me some info a few weeks ago. I just looked up the BTU for Nitromethane. It is 47,750. I belive diesel is around 125,000 BTU? So Nitro is quite a bit lower. However it is almost 50% O2. This would help burn up all of that diesel fuel? There literature also mentions that Methanol is close to 50% O2 as well.


If anyone does get brave and try to run Nitro in with there fuel, they will need some type of binding agent, to keep the Nitro from separating.

My bad, Nitro should work since it needs LESS air to burn.

One problem with using nitro though. When it burns, it releases nitric acid. It will eat your exhaust system. The fumes are slightly poisonous.

Worked with Nitro before. It burns Very fast and kicks very hard. We used to say gasoline burned and nitro exploded! It will beat any stock engine to a pulp. It is the only way to go for high horsepower, high revving engines though. Just have to build for it.

Would have to look it up again, but I think a 5%-10% Nitros/Meth mix produces about twice the power of straight Meth. You use roughly twice as much Methanol as gasoline by volume to get a good f/a mix. Meth and gas produce about the same power at the correct f/a ratios. The Nitro has to be mixed with alcohol up to 90% Nitro.

All of that is just info. If someone goes this route, I predict bent rods and crushed pistons. If you add it to the fuel directly, look for pump failure.

Years ago I helped with a race boat that ran Nitro. You tuned and so on with straight Methanol and then used the Nitro just for racing. You could hear the pistons smack when the Nitro made it to the engine. Actually it was kinda funny the first time we tried to run nitro. Tried to run it through a mildly enhance 454 chevy. Broke the engine at idle (1200 rpm) with ~20% mix. Things got real expensive from there......

I think there's some corrosion/erosion issues with the aluminum engine parts. We used concentrated peroxide for hydrogen control in submarine reactor plants and never exposed anything but stainless steel or glass/ceramic to the concentrate or diluted injection aliquot. It's a serious oxidizer that will rapidly oxidize and corrode some materials and I seem to remember that aluminum was one to avoid.


Idle_Chatter,


When did you use that in Rx plants on the boats. We don't use it now, and haven't for the past 10 years. Just wonderin'.


Thanks,
Dennis

Nothin but pure water in the navy reactors.

There is an injection tank of something-peroxide to kill the reactor as a last ditch shutdown but I can't remember the chemical. If I recall correctly, it latches onto the fuel plates ruining the core. But it will shut it down. Requires the same handleing regiment as Hydrogen Peroxide.

In commercial nukes we use hydrogen-peroxide during ramp down to generate a crud burst. It goes a long way toward reducing primary system contamination levels.

Meanwhile, back in <font size="4">Diesel Engine</font> land.....

Dang! You know, they're right about drinking killing brain cells (but only the *weak ones*!)http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big%20Smile.gif I think old age has something to do with it, too. When I wrote that response I was thinking of Ammonium Hydroxide! I was a Leading ELT, too! http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif But that was 1970 to 1976. I had done chemistry on S5W core 4 (Lithium Hydroxide) and an S3G core 3 (Ammonium Hydroxide). We *DID* keep concentrated peroxide for prepping one type of sample - don't remember which - but I do recall the precautions for handling and preventing contact with certain materials! Got my use fouled up, but still remember the chemical and precautions.http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Idle_Chatter,


Okay, that makes more sense to me. I couldn't think of how you would use it to control H2.


Fingers, are you thinking of Potassium Tetraborate?


Dennishttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif


Didn't mean to hijack the thread McRat, now back to our regularly scheduled program. . .

Fingers, are you thinking of Potassium Tetraborate?


Dennishttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Could be. The Navy side is not my forte, but I hear a lot of stories...

Is anyone out there set up with water/meth injection that is willing to add say 10% H2O2 to the mix? Can I help?