Sorry the Subject field was alittle scary, just wanted to grab attention. I talked with 3 engineers today, which were in some way afilitated with the D-max. I found out that the new injectors went into all trucks built after 12-01. The problem they feel is that the injectors are developing hairline cracks that may not show up until high fuel pressure is developed. This is what is allowing fuel/oil dilution. The redesign was to address this problem but has failed. We talked in great length regarding additional filtration and th Racor setup that is being tested in Canada which is supposed to be a dealer installed OPTION. The salesmen is to try and sell it as additional at the time of sale. "Sir, thanks for purchasing your 45k truck, but we need to add the 150.00 filter setup to get you through warr"!!! I showed him the Mega and the Racor setup and he was familier with both of them.. I asked him about cavitation/air in system and its potential problems, he said there is none whatso ever and that some air should be expected in system. He mentioned the clean line test and a perfect operating system will have bubbles. I asked him why he thought that injectors were failing and he said contamination and water. Hearing that I come to the conclusion out loud that the oem filter setup is junk, he didnt like that at all. Biggest problem he is seeing is customers not changing the fuel filter often enough. He stuck with the 15k rule on them. They are well aware of the situation and at this point have no idea the exact fix for the problem. The LLY will surely help in the diag standpoint and the labor to replace.. They will go from a 96 volt system to a 48 volt system also, not sure on why. I would imagine less heat in the FICM and would require less cooling. When mentioning lift pumps, his biggest concern was damage to the FICM, not damage to the HPP as I would have thought. I told him we only run at about 1-2 psi, just enough to put system under pressure. Long story short, GM at this point dont know what to do about our little problem.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

So GM says contamination and water are the problem. Any idea if it's water getting past the water separator (i.e. to the injectors) or just water in the tank that's the problem?

Thanks for representing us owners to those GM engineers and asking all the right questions that we have been struggling to get firmly resolved.


It sounds like we are defintely on the right track with secondary filtration and minimizing fuel contamination.


Really appreciate it.

It doesn't sound like those engineers understand all they know about this problem or they were just trying to baffle you with BS. Their answer about not changing the filter is also BS. Evidently the warranty claims for injectors must not be high enough to justify a redesign, recall, etc. Changing the top of the engine to get at the injectors easier is not addressing the root cause. GM knows better but money is the bottom line. I think we are still on our own. I hope they are wrong about the cracks and dirt is the problem. Later! Frank

Thanks again Eric, we all apprecaite what you do!.


Ray403Dmax - water does get past just about any water seperator (in small quantities). That's why I emulsify. Ask George Morrison just how effective a water seperator is in the 200ppm range!

I am new at this but would like to add. Racor does make a replacement filter for oem that has a different ellement or this is what I am told by Racor Rep. It has the same 2 mic rateing that is in the 660 people are adding and for that fact is supposed to be the same ellement. It has a totaly different part#. And one is on its way here been tracking and is 1/2 way. It was quoted to me " the one that is OEM is of GM,s specs this is of Racor specs even though we build the filter for GM there is a big difference " The filter will be here tommarow so Ill post what I find after I see it. Well we will see and I still believe a second is a must. David

Where did you order the better primary Racor filter from ?

Let us know aboput that filter but so far the indications are there is only one filter to fit a DMAX and it's labeled many different ways.

I got this filter from a place in spingfield Mo, by the way of a Racor tech rep.My little girl lost my paper with the name. I will have part# and puchase place and Phone# tommarow and will post it, Its is in same can, but Im assured it is of different ellement. By the way I am recieving the first free of charge for all the enquiring I did to prove thier willingness to help. David

DmaxDave, I would be very interested to see one of them cut apart and compared. That will help tell the tale also.

DmaxalliTech, be glad to help and if you would like tell me where to send it to you and you can do just that if you would like. David

Monday afternoon I took my '03 2500HD ExtCab in for not starting - yup, injector problem. At 23,500 miles, I was a little disappointed in the durability. Don't get me wrong - I have been totally satisfied with the duramax/allison setup for towing my 8000lb travel trailer and 7000lb gvw utility trailer. But, I expected that other than tires/oil changes/filters, the truck would run problem free for many tens of thousands of miles.


The good news is that Monday morning (about 5 hours before heading to the dealer), I found "The Diesel Place" and was able to review the TSBs posted by dmaxalliTech. While the truck is in for the injector fix, the irregular a/c operation & "service 4wd" issues are also being fixed. Thanks to all that vocalize the issues and to dmaxalliTech for contributing the technical expertise.


The bad news is that while it may surprise many about GM's response to dmaxalliTech, all domestic automakers suffer from the same ailment - The Financial Staff runs the manufacturing. Regardless of the impact on customers, most management discussions start with "how much will this cost", instead of what's the best vehicle we can make.


As a loyal GM employee w/ 24+ years of service, I will continue to support GM. I just didn't realize that the extended warranty would be part of that support. Does anyone know Bob Lutz at GM? If we could energize him to address this issue, it would have at least a chance of being fixed right.


Steve

dmaxalliTech wrote:The problem they feel is that the injectors are developing hairline cracks that may not show up until high fuel pressure is developed.


Well, it would seem to me the solution would be to lower the rail pressure below the point that the cracking is occuring. I, for one would put up with slightly less power, knowing I was getting better injector life. It would be interesting to find out the pressures and duration of those pressures, that is causing the cracking.

I still say that Bosch has been making high pressure injection systems for awhile and I am sure they know how to make them. IMHO it is still dirt related. We were saying that only 01's had the problem well guys its all the way to the 03's now. I think real world results and George Morrison have a lot better handle on the problem than the boys at GM. With the help of George and everyone putting on extra filtration I serious doubt you will see injector failure in those trucks again or at least it will not be in the near future.

Greg

At least they know and they know WE know and have been working on solutions without their help. Hopefully they are taking some of these corrective actions seriously.


I have to agree with Steve though. Some of the best solutions haven't been implemented due to how businesses are operated and the bigger the company the tougher it is to do the right thing engineering wise.

dmaxalliTech wrote:The problem they feel is that the injectors are developing hairline cracks that may not show up until high fuel pressure is developed.


Well, it would seem to me the solution would be to lower the rail pressure below the point that the cracking is occuring. I, for one would put up with slightly less power, knowing I was getting better injector life. It would be interesting to find out the pressures and duration of those pressures, that is causing the cracking.





The sad part is that they said they will be increasing fuel rail pressure not decreasing it

Right now super clean fuel is all we can do. We are at the mercy of Bosch and GM. Now they need to look at what they need to do to avoid a sales meltdown if this turns out to be a 100,000 mile if your lucky issue.

I would like to know what is causing the hairline cracks?

Just the fuel pressure itself and a faulty injector design or faulty manufacturing? Sounds like an injector redesign is due. But then getting GM and Bosch to work together may be the same as getting GM and Stanadyne working together.

I don't understand where dirt and hairline cracking are related unless abrasive wear weakens somthing.




Something to note....

The new VW V10 diesel coming out does not use HPCR.



Other VW TDI models with the 1.9 litre 4-cylinder of 115 hp or 150 hp, and the 1.2
litre and 1.4 litre 3-cylinder engines, use a so-called "pumpe-deuse" (German) or
"pump-nozzle" (English translation) system. In these engines, each cylinder has its
own small high-pressure fuel pump which is actuated by the same camshaft that
operates the intake and exhaust valves. Fuel is delivered to each pump-nozzle by a
low-pressure pump serving the same function as the internal vane pump in the
distributor-type system. As the engine cylinder approaches the end of the compression
stroke, the main pump plunger advances, pressurizing the fuel. A solenoid valve
adjacent to each pump-nozzle is normally open and bypasses the fuel. When the
solenoid valve is energized, the bypass passage is closed and the fuel is forced to an
extremely high pressure and through the injection nozzle. At the end of the required
injection period, the solenoid valve de-energizes and any remaining fuel pumped by
the plunger bypasses the nozzle. Thus, fuel is injected as long as the solenoid is
energized, allowing full control of injection timing and duration. This system has the
significant advantage of eliminating the separate high-pressure fuel lines from the
pump to the nozzle because it is all built into a single unit, thus giving better control of
the injection cycle.
Finally, some modern diesel engines use a "common rail" injection system. The
concept is much like a conventional gasoline engine EFI system but the pressure
involved is on the order of 1000 times higher. A single central high-pressure pump
delivers fuel to a pressurized fuel line, and separate solenoid valves on each cylinder
admit fuel into each injector. Although this sounds simple, it is extremely difficult to
make it work due to the extremely high pressures involved. This system is used on the
180hp version of the 2.5 litre V6, and on the 3.3 litre V8.


From Source (http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/tdifaq.pdf)Edited by: hoot

The solution is easy enough, just add one of the supplemental filters (Cat, Racor or Baldwin) to your truck and use an emulsifying additive. Just what George Morrison said when this whole filtration issue was started on The Diesel Page back in October of 2002. The story has not changed.





Eric - thanks for posting the information above. Enough bits and pieces of factual information are eventually reported on these internet forums to where the big picture can be put together.


Alan

Eric, reading your conversation, it didn't sound like they were saying that the high pressure was causing the hairline cracks. Only that the cracks were apparent because of the high pressure. Did I mis-read this?


Steve

Eric,


Thanks for sticking your neck out and "come(ing) to the conclusion out loud" that the OEM is junk. So, how hard was it to not slap him up side the head and tell him to wake up? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


Let's check the logic of this. First, you have hairline cracks. Second, it dumps fuel into the oil and dilutes it. Third, your redesign didn't fix it. Forth, so you INCREASE the pressure? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Fifth, you are worried about the FICM and not the HPP? http://dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif Nevermind, there is no logic to this. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


The flow with a lift pump should be more and not less for cooling purposes. If you are vaporizing the fuel in the FICM because of it beign at a lower pressure, then the cooling is not as efficient. These guys are confusing me and worrying me too.

The 48 volts might be a move towards the newer electrical systems coming down the road. I beleive They are moving towards 48 v systems throughout. It means they can go with smaller wire. I don't think it has anything to do with heat.

As far as damage to the FICM (Fuel Injection Control Module)is concerned....

If going from vacuum to pressure is a concern that would lead me to believe the FICM might be sensitive to fuel breach? Maybe it was not designed for a pressure system. I don't see where 1 or 2 psi would create a heat problem.Edited by: hoot

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but aren't the new Cummins and Ford diesels using HPCR systems? Are those guys reporting any injector problems? IIRC, isn't Dodge adding an extra fuel filter?

Dodge is using HPCR, Ford is not.

The issue is not neccessarily HPCR itself. It's the pressures that are higher than those of years ago. All modern diesels are going to these 25,000-30,000 psi pressures. The problem is designing the most vunerable parts to withstand thousands of hours of use under these pressures.

Getting the dirt out is a major step in the right direction.

I notice one major thing in dmaxalliTech's report....

They acknowledge the problem.

DMaxDave


Were you able to find the part number and info on the upgraded or different OEM replacement filter. Ideally I would just want a better filter in the existing hardware.

Most of it sounds pretty straight forward to me: "contamination and water" is the main cause of failure. Glad they settled the lift pump question.


But were the hairline cracks mentioned due to manufacturing defects in samples of the injectors, or, caused by the contamination/water weakening them by eroding and corroding the injectors?


If he admitted the OEM was junk it'd be providing grounds for a recall - something I'm sure he doesn't want to be help personally responsible for triggering.





... I asked him why he thought that injectors were failing and he said contamination and water. Hearing that I come to the conclusion out loud that the oem filter setup is junk, he didnt like that at all. Biggest problem he is seeing is customers not changing the fuel filter often enough. He stuck with the 15k rule on them.

....


The bad news is that while it may surprise many about GM's response to dmaxalliTech, all domestic automakers suffer from the same ailment - The Financial Staff runs the manufacturing. Regardless of the impact on customers, most management discussions start with "how much will this cost", instead of what's the best vehicle we can make.


....





While I agree with the statement that Finance runs the company, there's NO way that GM would lose any money if they IMPROVED the filter.


Look, that OEM filter costs $40 right now. That thing does NOT cost GM more than $5 to buy. That's a total of $35 profit throughout the entire orginization. If they were to improve the filter, it would NOT double the cost of the filter. If they upped the price another $5, they'd still be making money hand over fist.


GM's replacement part costs are just simply outrageous, so there's no way that they would lose any money. In fact, they would most likely be money ahead, by NOT having to pay out warranty.


cadman_ksEdited by: CADman_ks

.... He stuck with the 15k rule on them. .... '


The 15K brings up another point.


When I bought my truck, the supplemental manual indicates that I'm supposed to change the filter every 30K. I have since learned, thru forums like this, that GM is now saying every 15K.


I have NEVER received anything from GM in writing that says that I should be changing the filter every 15K. IF I did all of my own maintainence, how would I ever know that I was supposed to be changing this filter in HALF the recommended time?


Has anyone gotten anything in writing from GM stating that they should be changing their filter every 15K? I don't see how GM could/can be holding that against owner's. The owner's are simply doing what their owner's manual says to.


cadman_ks

cadman-ks, I see you drive an 02 as I do so you should have the same Duramax Diesel Supplement service manual. If you will look on the right side of page 7-5 under the 15K service schedule you will see it says to change the fuel filter. It states the same thing on page 7-7. Later! Frank

Frank,


I'll have to check that out. I hadn't noticed that.


cadman_ks

I change my fuel filter every 20,000 miles, and will continue doing so as long as I see no problems. However; I did add the Racor 660 secondary fuel filter (up on driver side of engine) with the 2 micron filter.


Only time will tell. 41,400+ and counting!

Regarding 'where do the hairline cracks originate?" Attached is a scanning electron microscope photo of a Bosch injector which failed at 90,000 miles; cause, 25/23/21 ISO diesel fuel.
A very graphic example of what is taking place in terms of particulate erosion of the tip.
George Morrison

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/C6B_Failed_injector_nozzle.jpg

excellent photo Geroge!


thanks

OK George,,,


We are all well educated on the need for fuel cleanliness here at the Diesel Place (thanks in the most part to you!). Everyone who is (or will be) running a Cat, Racor or Baldwin supplemental filter has at least ISO 15/13/10 fuel going to their injectors.


What does a 90,000 mile Bosch injector look like under ISO 15/13/10 conditions?


Just curious,


Alan

Great photo! Looks like fuel enters from above that opening.

....When I bought my truck, the supplemental manual indicates that I'm supposed to change the filter every 30K. I have since learned, thru forums like this, that GM is now saying every 15K.....





I apologize. I did look at my manual, and it does state every 15K. I had actually never looked at the fuel filter requirements in the manual. My servicing dealer said something to me like "It says 30K in the manual, but they've changed that to 15K now". I never checked him out on it. I'll guess I'd better pay more attention. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif


cadman_ks

George:


Would you possibly have a shot through the electron microscope of a new injector. Also, I have used stanadyne since day 1, not because I don't respect your opinion or knowledge but instead am concerned because of GM specifically stating stanadyne is acceptable to use. I'm running the 2 micron racor 660 between my transferflow and main tank and only fill the transferflow tank. I'm at 11,000 miles right now and will change the stock filter very soon. At that time I'll cut it open and see what kind of surprises there are. Would love to visit with you someday and really do appreciate your efforts.





You too Eric!

I am sorry but I do not have a new injector SEM photo for comparison. Trashed injectors are easy to come by; new are not! If someone has a new injector to lend me for a short time, I could get the same shot for comparison. All I have in my library are SEM's of failed injectors. However, they are all variations of the same lunar landscapes: whether they are CAT, Cummins, or Detroit. And no 15/13/10 ISO or better fueled injectors as, again, no failures in those engines..
George MorrisonEdited by: Georgecls

The 48 volts might be a move towards the newer electrical systems coming down the road. I beleive They are moving towards 48 v systems throughout. It means they can go with smaller wire. I don't think it has anything to do with heat.




Actually Hoot, cutting the voltage in half will roughly double the current, which can cause more heat. I don't know what the current draw presently is, but I am assuming it is very low to start with(milliamps perhaps?). It all depends on what the wire is rated for and what amperage is being drawn now.

George





Did that pic come from Geoff? If so I am sure he has some of new nozzles as well. He measured the hole size on new nozzles sometime back. I can email him and ask.





Greg

While most, if not all of us here are very meticulous about servicing our trucks, most folks are not. Example: I sold a 1998 2500 4X4, 5.7L truck to a friend of mine. It had 26K on it, when he took possession. He has not followed any of the service recommendations or requirements, other than changing the oil. It has 65K on it's odometer, and he has not serviced the transmission yet, even though when it approached 50K, I told him he should get it serviced. He did not change the fuel filter either, which is recommended at 30K. The other day the truck quit on him, and you guessed it, plugged fuel filter.


Now, I am not singling out any specific group, but your average joe that owns a Duramax is probably NOT changing his filter at 15K, or even 30K and therefore we are seeing all these problems. I would venture to say most people would not even think of the fuel filter, until the truck quits running.

The 48 volts might be a move towards the newer electrical systems coming down the road. I beleive They are moving towards 48 v systems throughout. It means they can go with smaller wire. I don't think it has anything to do with heat.




Actually Hoot, cutting the voltage in half will roughly double the current, which can cause more heat. I don't know what the current draw presently is, but I am assuming it is very low to start with(milliamps perhaps?). It all depends on what the wire is rated for and what amperage is being drawn now.

That's my point. I don't think the voltage change has anything to do with heat. dmaxalliTech was thinking that.

DmaxDave,


Where is Springfield did you get the filter, I live in Fordland about 18 miles to the East of there. I would like to pick one up.

While most, if not all of us here are very meticulous about servicing our trucks, most folks are not. ....


Now, I am not singling out any specific group, but your average joe that owns a Duramax is probably NOT changing his filter at 15K, or even 30K and therefore we are seeing all these problems. ....


I tend to agree with Pick on this one.


Are there any published numbers on failures that have resulted AFTER rigirous adherance to the recommendations?, and if so, how many are failing in this situation?, or are MOST of the failures coming from people who are following GM's recommendations?


cadman_ks

Another thought: Kool says they are producing around 16,500 engines a month. So for the sake of conversation let's say they have produced 36 X 16,500, or 594,000 engines to date. Figure MAYBE 10,000 people read this stuff here or at "The Page". Out of those 10K, maybe 3K have installed additonal filtering. That is about a .5 % give or take!! So if 99.5% of Duramax owners do not have additional fuel filtering..........then figure out how many of that 99.5% don't do regular maintenance, no wonder.......!!!

Wow... they're building 542 engines a day. That means just to sustain production they are using 4336 injectors a day!

Those injectors off the shelf would cost us like $2,168,000..... just one days worth http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif Edited by: hoot

So how many people on this forum have had injector failure, at what milage and did they use additional filtration?


I have one friend, 03 20K miles, never serviced filter, no issues yet. Although I told him what I read here and he is doing it tomarrow.

I think Pick is right, too, and GM is risking everything it has gained with the Duramax if it doesn't address the problem. I have a good friend with a '99 Powerstroke F-250. He remembers changing his fuel filter "a couple of times" in the last 140,000 miles. He's had zero engine problems. If the trucks that do not have supplemental filtration start crapping out at less than 100k miles, it will drive a stake through the heart of GM's diesel program and it will never recover. You can only fool truck buyers so many times. It's a loyal, but generally well informed, group. I love my truck, but if it turns out to be an injector eater and the General does not step up to the plate and pay to fix the problem it well knows exists, I will switch to a lesser, but more reliable product.

TC

I am sure that every member on this forum knows at least one more person with a Duramax. All we have to do is tell them to change their filter. Maybe we can get a big snow ball moving. I have has a couple people call me asking about changing filters in general. Later! Frank Edited by: Frank Blum

500 engines a day is nothing. At its peak Navistar was pumping out 1400 Power Strokes a day. About 10% of them were for the own trucks and buses. The 6.0L is around 1000 a day.

Greg

500 engines a day is nothing. At its peak Navistar was pumping out 1400 Power Strokes a day. About 10% of them were for the own trucks and buses. The 6.0L is around 1000 a day.

Greg





Yea, they need that kind of production to deal with all the failures. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

I think Pick is right, too, and GM is risking everything it has gained with the Duramax if it doesn't address the problem. ... it will drive a stake through the heart of GM's diesel program and it will never recover. You can only fool truck buyers so many times. It's a loyal, but generally well informed, group. ....
TC


I've said this before on other forums, and I guess now is the time.


FAILURE FOR GM IS NOT AN OPTION. PERIOD.


Plain and simply, if this engine fails, GM will NEVER recover in the diesel truck market. I love my truck as well, but if it's not worth anything when it comes time to sell, I'll jump ship so fast it'll make the General's head spin. I really thought that GM had done their homework, and knew what to expect. Maybe they didn't do enough homework. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


cadman_ks

I have an 2001 (mfg date of 6/01). I have 70K+ miles now. I maintain my truck routinely. Matter of fact, I have people ask me all the time if it is new. I live in California and usually get diesel fuel at the same places where the tractors do. I always Use FPPP additive. I have been changing my fuel filter every 10K miles when I change my oil(I run synthetic so I change at 10K mi regardless) I have noticed very little condensation in the separator part of the Racor filter I use. It is the OEM filter which I buy a case at a time. Other than the fact my injectors have become a bit noiser as the miles have gone on, I have not suffered any problems. My performance and mileage is very constant. Originally I got all caught up in this hype about poor filtering(both fuel and oil) but I think this may boil down to routine service intervals. I think the extra filtering is a ALWAYS a great addition but may not create problems if you don't add it as long as you are religious about the intervals. Someone posted up above that the problems may be surfacing from the daily users that do not maintain their vehicles and may buy gas at service stations that do not move a lot of fuel and it could be loaded with water. That is always a danger we face, even with gas vehicles. I also wondered if the additions of all these "power enhancer boxes" are adding to the failures making it appear to be an injector problem.


I like the both kits for fuel and oil filtering filtering, very well designed from the pictures I saw. I would highly recommend either or both of these for people that are not PM type people. Keep up the good work on the page. Very good site.

In case someone missed it, the below was straight from the horse's mouth...DuramaxalliTech speaking with GM engineers, posted 10/14/03.





... I showed him the Mega and the Racor setup and he was familier with both of them.. I asked him about cavitation/air in system and its potential problems, he said there is none whatso ever and that some air should be expected in system. He mentioned the clean line test and a perfect operating system will have bubbles....


... When mentioning lift pumps, his biggest concern was damage to the FICM, not damage to the HPP as I would have thought. I told him we only run at about 1-2 psi, just enough to put system under pressure.

We talked in great length regarding additional filtration and th Racor setup that is being tested in Canada which is supposed to be a dealer installed OPTION. The salesmen is to try and sell it as additional at the time of sale. "Sir, thanks for purchasing your 45k truck, but we need to add the 150.00 filter setup to get you through warr"!!! I showed him the Mega and the Racor setup and he was familier with both of them..


Try $350.00 Canadian installed in our $60,000 Can trucks, thanks but no thanks, I will buy a Nictane.


Cheers


BearEdited by: Bearman

Does this mean they will change the name from DURAMAX to 100KMAX????


Steve

In case someone missed it, the below was straight from the horse's mouth...DuramaxalliTech speaking with GM engineers, posted 10/14/03.





... I showed him the Mega and the Racor setup and he was familier with both of them.. I asked him about cavitation/air in system and its potential problems, he said there is none whatso ever and that some air should be expected in system. He mentioned the clean line test and a perfect operating system will have bubbles....


... When mentioning lift pumps, his biggest concern was damage to the FICM, not damage to the HPP as I would have thought. I told him we only run at about 1-2 psi, just enough to put system under pressure.








But this is from the same people that say there is no problem with the fuel filters and to run an demusifling fuel additive to remove the water. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cry.gif

Summary of my injector problems - Truck took over 45 seconds to start on Sunday, 10/12. Truck delivered to dealer on Monday, 10/13 4pm. Service Mgr estimated 2 days to fix - I advised him of the many comments on this website & Diesel Page indicating that it may take longer if the injectors were bad, but I hoped he was right. Truck finally ready on Friday, 10/24, 6:30pm. 5 injectors replaced and the invoice indicated 17.6 hours. I'm investigating why they had the truck for 11 days if it only took 17.6 hours to fix it.


The good news - I was given a loaner (S10 pickup) at no charge. The bad news - I didn't have access to my fullsize, 4wd, trailer-towing duramax for over 11 days. What if this had been on a hunting/camping trip out west? Sorry, we can't fix your truck for at least 10 days, here's an S10 (or another insufficient loaner), but keep making the payment on the loan.


I haven't fully decided yet, but as much as I love the potential of the Duramax, I'm thinking about saying adios, get the 8.1 gasser and not have to worry about the "GM has known about the injector problem issue and won't do anything about it" Duramax.


Steve


2003, GMC Duramax, 2500HD, Ext Cab, 23,480 miles.

Watch out for that piston slap on the 8.1. It dosen;t matter what you buy, there will be issues with that modle, some get lucky and have no problems, while others have the "every thing that can go wrong does" . My 2001 DA had every problem, fuel system (2 pumps), injectors (X7) tranys (X2), ect by 35000 miles, ect. My 2002 I have beaten to death and it has been flawless for almost 60000 miles.


Cheers


Bear

I sure hate to read these posts. I had pretty much decided to order a new Duramax when I got home from this job and now I'm kind of thinking that over. What does a guy do these days? You can buy a 6.0 Ford take your chances with all the problems they have, you can go GM and deal with injector problems, or you can go Dodge and know your going to have automatic transmission issues. This is not worth a dam. All these folks better hope Toyota and Nissan don't get into the heavy truck market, they will all be in big trouble. When I bought my truck in 93, I bought it because I thought it would be reliable,and it has been. They want twice the price now with half the reliabliity. That's pretty dam pitiful in my book. We all work hard for our money and we deserve a decent product.


93 F250 SC 4x4 7.3 auto. 170,000 miles

I sure hate to read these posts. I had pretty much decided to order a new Duramax when I got home from this job and now I'm kind of thinking that over. What does a guy do these days? ....





It's posts like this that make me cringe. I really wish that we could all just bickering over this (I'm just as quilty as the next guy), because we're scaring off potential owners.


One thing that you have to remember is that most of the people on here are one of two types:


1) They're gearheads that really REALLY need all the cool stuff, and will do whatever, regardless of what anyone else tells them


2) They're people having problems looking for answers.


These 2 groups of people make up the majority of the users on here. There's also a small minority of people who have bone stock trucks (no filtering, no mods, no nothing) that have NOT had any problems with their trucks.


I still think that the Dmax is a good engine, and I still think that the total number of injector failures is NOT that high for the TOTAL number of trucks that have been built upto this point.


Personally, at this point, I would still take my chances with the Dmax over the the Dodge, and then the Ford last. I think that Dodge has a lot of the tranny problems behind them, but it's still early in the game for their new tranny.


cadman_ks

It seems to me that the majority of the injector based worries are long term stuff. I know my last Duramax did great for me. I wouldn't even consider Ford at the moment. I like the Cummings but I dont care for that Quad cab at all. Every truck line is going to have some troubles. Overall those of the Duramax seem pretty small compared to the others. Aside from extra filteration and synthetic fluids I am one of the few that will be running stock. No chips, no trans kits, no exhaust changes etc. No hole shots or pulling contests. I just buy the duramax for good fuel economy and extended life over a gasser. It really seems like preventitive maintenance is key here. I'm going to just change the OEM filter every 10k and run additives to help out. Cadman...There are other colors now.. Like my new Silver Birch Max http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gifEdited by: BlueMaxxxx

... Cadman...There are other colors now.. Like my new Silver Birch Max


Funny thing about the color. When I bought my truck, my dealer had 4 C/C 2500HD's D/A combos, 2 LS's, and 2 LT's, and at one point they had 6. They had one other color, and I don't even remember which one it was. There for a while, it was "You can have any color you want, as long as it's pewter"


I would have liked a white one, but my wife didn't like the looks of the black fender flares on there, and quite frankly, I don't either, so we settled on pewter instead. (Please don't flame me for hating the black fender flares. I catch plenty of hell at work for it, as it is)


Unfortunately, pewter is everywhere though...


cadman_ks

Cadman, WHAT !!! YOU dont like the black plastic ??? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Pinch.gif I ordered this one sight unseen. When it arrived I really did like the color ( Good thing) and the wheel flares are painted as is the front facia. Very little black plastic. Blue is my first pick but this was the only one in 300 miles with every factory option. Now I have it I love because it doesn't show the dirt. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif

...YOU dont like the black plastic ??? ... and the wheel flares are painted as is the front facia. Very little black plastic. ... Now I have it I love because it doesn't show the dirt. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif


Nope, I don't like the black plastic. That's another reason to get pewter. The fender flares are painted to match. However, on the Chevy, the front is still black plastic. That's one of the differences between the GMC and the Chevy.


Pewter doens't show dirt either. Another underlying reason for getting it!! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gif


cadman_ks

I do believe the injector problem wil be fixed or at least repairs will be easier and less expensive. The next time I need injectors will probably be out of warranty so I'll just do them myself. By then I'd even bet dmaxalliTech will have a step by step procedure with shortcuts all written out for us. I think the odds of having inj troubles are about 1 in 1000 (purely a guess on my part based on my observations) and these odds are still better than having problems with a PS2 or the Dodge tranny. Plus the GM truck is soooo much nicer!!! I'll deal with it!!

I am new at this but would like to add. Racor does make a replacement filter for oem that has a different ellement or this is what I am told by Racor Rep. It has the same 2 mic rateing that is in the 660 people are adding and for that fact is supposed to be the same ellement. It has a totaly different part#. And one is on its way here been tracking and is 1/2 way. It was quoted to me " the one that is OEM is of GM,s specs this is of Racor specs even though we build the filter for GM there is a big difference " The filter will be here tommarow so Ill post what I find after I see it. Well we will see and I still believe a second is a must. David
On eBay, I just bought a LuberFiner fuel filter [LFF8736] and intend on changing mine for the 1st time at 15000 miles. I don't know the micron filter rating and I don't have proof but read somewhere where it is made by Racor. I just ran onto this forum and think it is great.
Bill

I'm not sure where I stand in this fray. I have an '01 that I bought new in June '02 with 900 miles on it. I've always wondered why it was a year old with 900 miles on it. Mine is still stock and I've done the oil changes relegiously but still have not changed the fuel filter at 19,000 miles. I hope to change it soon. I live in the deep south and wonder if location and climate have any bearing on the water issues. It is kinda scary wondering when the hammer might drop.

Mine is still stock and I've done the oil changes relegiously but still have not changed the fuel filter at 19,000 miles. I hope to change it soon. I live in the deep south and wonder if location and climate have any bearing on the water issues. It is kinda scary wondering when the hammer might drop.





Living in the south, and I do too, I would suggest the following at a minimum.


First change the fuel filter by the book as a minimum place to start. 15k is the point it is supposed to be changed. Think of the heat and humidity here and then wonder how much moisture you might be building up!


Second consider using an additive.


Third consider a 2nd filter.


But most important is doing the minimum filter changes.Edited by: FirstDiesel

hello Larry

We change our fuel filter Every 5,000 miles ....... Then
I can sleep at night.. Very easy to change 15mins and done

Where in the Deep Deep Deep South.. Southen FL

From steve
Fleet Depthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif