I'm looking at new body designs, and more importantly new diesel technology, and I'm thinking LBZ's are the last of a good thing. I'm thinking 2008 for diesel trucks is like 1973 for the old muscle cars.

You could have said the LB7 was the last of a good thing 3 years ago also, but that too turned out to be untrue.

I'm looking at new body designs, and more importantly new diesel technology, and I'm thinking LBZ's are the last of a good thing. I'm thinking 2008 for diesel trucks is like 1973 for the old muscle cars.yea im starting to beleive that too who kno;s may get better if they could / would put a big CATTERPILAR under the hoods.:eek:

Once they figure out how to bypass/remove all of that emissions crap we'll be fine, i think?

Thats the problem. With the new emissions systems it will be near impossible to remove or bypass them and if someone does come up with a way it is going to be very expensive. The DPF is going to be one of the greatest hurdles to overcome. I'm currently looking for an 06 Reg cab for a race vehicle myself. If I buy one of the new trucks it will just be a business vehicle and stay stock.

You could have said the LB7 was the last of a good thing 3 years ago also, but that too turned out to be untrue.


Not really. Three years ago we weren't battling 32-bit processors and a DPF. My thinking is that it will get worse.

I'm looking at new body designs, and more importantly new diesel technology, and I'm thinking LBZ's are the last of a good thing. I'm thinking 2008 for diesel trucks is like 1973 for the old muscle cars.


I agree that 1973 thru 1975 was a terrible era for muscle cars but if you remember correctly things got better starting in 1976 with catalytic convertors and then much better with computer controlled fuel injection.

To say that 2008 diesels will be like 1973 gassers is idiotic and ignores over 3 decades of fuel management/emissions technology.

Emissions technology based on processing in the exhuast system isn't that bad except for some increased backpressure. The DPF seems pretty inocuous if it operates as designed.

Besides that LMM > LBZ in power output and low end response.

What I don't like is the price tag!!

yea im starting to beleive that too who kno;s may get better if they could / would put a big CATTERPILAR under the hoods.:eek:


CAT would only make things worse. Their engines are not what they used to be.

In 1973 we lost a lot of HP., but with the LMM we gained . Bad compare.

I think things will keep getting better.

BTW ..... No CAT liking here.

I've had my lbz for 2 days now and I tend to agree...hard to belive you could get a better engine,anywhere. interiors on the new 1/2 tons are awsome and comfy...but were talkin engines, and i think it is the last of a dying breed. Maybe 4-5 years from no i'll be thinking differently...who knows!

For the next few years I would have to agree that the LBZs the way to go, but after that no one knows.

...underlying motivation for this thread is to see if I can get talked into waiting out for what the future holds...Keep the opinions coming guys, and I appreciate your $.02.

I agree that 1973 thru 1975 was a terrible era for muscle cars but if you remember correctly things got better starting in 1976 with catalytic convertors and then much better with computer controlled fuel injection.

To say that 2008 diesels will be like 1973 gassers is idiotic and ignores over 3 decades of fuel management/emissions technology.



What I don't like is the price tag!!

I got a bit of problem with this remark. First off, I don't like being called an idiot. Second, there have not been three decades of emission feedback controlled fuel management on direct injected diesels; you are talking about gasoline. Hence, my point, we are entering the dark age here with the new emissions controls on diesels. Have you seen the 2010 NOX standards? I appreciate your opinion, but there is no need to lable my anology idiotic, especially when you make an erroneous reference.

BTW, things in 76 may have been better than 75 in advertised figures, but they didn't touch 4BBL, 4 bolt, solid cam, big blocks. Catalytic converter and feedback carburetors don't = performance improvements on anything, but that is another argument.

CAT would only make things worse. Their engines are not what they used to be.

I agree!! Leave the DMAX alone. It has held its own just fine.

I still think a mid 90's CC LB 2500 is impossible to beat for looks. I would like to have one of those with a LBZ under the hood.

Do what i just did.AND TRADE UP! and try to make the damages minimal (I haggled for almost 2 weeks)...my payment went up a mere $35 bucks a month,mostly due to interest rates being higher,so if you have the $$, do it, not a lot when we are paying what we are for these awsome machines.I highly doubt you will regret it! end of this month will be a great time to get into a new one, dealers have to make end of year numbers and hit sales goals for the month and trust me they will almost give em away. the 07's are one sweet ride. ;)

I got a bit of problem with this remark. First off, I don't like being called an idiot. Second, there have not been three decades of emission feedback controlled fuel management on direct injected diesels; you are talking about gasoline. Hence, my point, we are entering the dark age here with the new emissions controls on diesels. Have you seen the 2010 NOX standards? I appreciate your opinion, but there is no need to lable my anology idiotic, especially when you make an erroneous reference.

BTW, things in 76 may have been better than 75 in advertised figures, but they didn't touch 4BBL, 4 bolt, solid cam, big blocks. Catalytic converter and feedback carburetors don't = performance improvements on anything, but that is another argument.

You weren't called an idiot. (I apologize if you percieved it this way). Your statement that 2008 diesels will be like 1973 gassers was idiotic and I stand by that statement.

The differences between fuel types (diesel vs gas) doesn't mean that diesels will have to start the 30 year emissions learning curve from scratch all over again.

Do you honestly believe that diesel emission/computerized fuel management/engine technology hasn't learned anything from gassers over a 30+ year period???

I really think that LMM will prove that it's the best Duramax ever. (lower emissions and better performance, what isn't there to like besides the price tag??)

I'm much more worried about 2010 then I am about 2008. I really think the next couple years will be the sweet spot. (ie New fresh truck design, highest output Duramax and proven Allison tranny)

P.S. The true muscle car era ending in the late 60's. Things got progressively worse until 1975 where they seemed to hit rock bottom. From 1976 onwards there was continuous improvement as technology caught up with regulations.

CAT would only make things worse. Their engines are not what they used to be.


:Whoa: :cookoo: your crazy! CAT is top dog. They produce millions of engines all w/ basically no probs. They have a huge name and rep built in larger equipment, They also put engines in many GM and Ferd trucks today.;)

If you really want a truck it would be the Gm/Chevy body and frame, Soild Front Axle and a CAT..Millions and millions of people would instantly drop their current trucks to buy one..I know I would in a heart beat :rolleyes:

Oh and the LBZ is the best ever, how can you argue when the LBZ is the ONLY engine designed to run on both the old and new diesel set to come out jan 1st

I'm looking at new body designs, and more importantly new diesel technology, and I'm thinking LBZ's are the last of a good thing. I'm thinking 2008 for diesel trucks is like 1973 for the old muscle cars.

I kind of feel that way, too. Anytime the EPA dictates to the fuel & automotive industry, it isn't good for us enthusiasts!

Sorry, but not a Cat fan. They cost more rebuild, and don't last any longer. Speaking from experience with a IH 466 with 32k hours on it and no rebuild.

:Whoa: :cookoo: your crazy! CAT is top dog. They produce millions of engines all w/ basically no probs. They have a huge name and rep built in larger equipment, They also put engines in many GM and Ferd trucks today.;)

If you really want a truck it would be the Gm/Chevy body and frame, Soild Front Axle and a CAT..Millions and millions of people would instantly drop their current trucks to buy one..I know I would in a heart beat :rolleyes:

Oh and the LBZ is the best ever, how can you argue when the LBZ is the ONLY engine designed to run on both the old and new diesel set to come out jan 1st

I'd disagree with you about the CAT engines...I have trucks with the 3406E CAT and friends that have the ACERT motors and they hate them. Always have problems....I think the emissions has destroyed a good motor.

As far as the Duramax goes I don't think the LBZ was the last of a goodthing, but I'd have to say its going to really screw up guys that like to delete the CAT and do mods to it. It'll take awhile for the guys to figure out new exhaust and ways to beat the emissions. As for 2010 that is when the diesel motors will go in the crapper. They are projecting by 2010 that the air coming out the pipe will be cleaner than the air going in the engine. You wanna talk about a POS. I'm all for clean air to breathe, but these tree huggers and politicians have gone too far with these regulations.

I'm all for clean air to breathe, but these tree huggers and politicians have gone too far with these regulations.


I will have to agree. I can't even ride my new 4 stroke snowmobile in yellowstone park yet any sulfur spewing pos car can drive in there at will. But where do we draw the line? We could either improve the emissions of vehicles or limit the amount of time we can run them. But we should all agree that something definately has to be done.

I got my LBZ though and i'm ripping my cat off next spring, same as it is on my car and my other truck.

I really think that LMM will prove that it's the best Duramax ever. (lower emissions and better performance, what isn't there to like besides the price tag?

I'm much more worried about 2010 then I am about 2008. I really think the next couple years will be the sweet spot. (ie New fresh truck design, highest output Duramax and proven Allison tranny)



WOW man well said, well said. :thumb:

I couldnt agree with you more on this statement! I agree, the next couple years will definately be the sweet spot on the Duramax with the fresh new BEEFY design, highest horsepower ever on a Duramax Diesel, cleaner running, and a 6-speed Allisson.:D

I'm thinking 2008 for diesel trucks is like 1973 for the old muscle cars.
I understand what you're trying to say, but I disagree. Have you seen the commercials for the new Mustang GT 500? Ford (or whoever anymore) is cranking out 500hp with much more stringent emissions rules than anybody ever dreamed of in 1973 but they have figured it out anyway. I don't care who you are, 500hp from the front seat of a pony car will make anybody giggle.

This goes hand in hand with another post. I've got a hunch that the guys really peeved are the tinkerers. I will second the notion that the guys that are the most annoyed do not have a stock automobile sitting anywhere in thier driveway.

Just my $0.02

This goes hand in hand with another post. I've got a hunch that the guys really peeved are the tinkerers. I will second the notion that the guys that are the most annoyed do not have a stock automobile sitting anywhere in thier driveway.


:agreed: This guy's smart. I like him.

I understand what you're trying to say, but I disagree. Have you seen the commercials for the new Mustang GT 500? Ford (or whoever anymore) is cranking out 500hp with much more stringent emissions rules than anybody ever dreamed of in 1973 but they have figured it out anyway. I don't care who you are, 500hp from the front seat of a pony car will make anybody giggle.

This goes hand in hand with another post. I've got a hunch that the guys really peeved are the tinkerers. I will second the notion that the guys that are the most annoyed do not have a stock automobile sitting anywhere in thier driveway.

Just my $0.02


Very true. Even the newest 2006 and 2007 Corvette Z06 makes 505 Horsepwer now, which is much more than the Corvette made back in the muscle car era 1960's and 1970's.

Seems as though with the new stringent emmissions and all, the power finds its way to climb and climb every year.

Not sure if it was just rumor but wasn't there talk of a 7.4l Duramax being tested for the 2010 model year?... close to 400hp.. I thought I read that from somewhere on this site or on another site or in a truck mag(not sure). If that is the case than things can get better in a hurry.

Very true. Even the newest 2006 and 2007 Corvette Z06 makes 505 Horsepwer now, which is much more than the Corvette made back in the muscle car era 1960's and 1970's.

Seems as though with the new stringent emmissions and all, the power finds its way to climb and climb every year.

Yes but a nice new Z06 comes with quite a price tag.

Im sure that eventually the enginers will figure out ways around the emissions junk. However, Its gonna come with a high price tag. :rolleyes:

why do we have to comply with emissions when japan, china ect. dont even try??

Just type in "california diesel emmissions" into your search engine and start reading. You may want to smoke...er..I mean take a mild sedative before doing so.
Wonder if the gassers know the health effects of benzene they breath every day at the pump??

:Whoa: :cookoo: your crazy! CAT is top dog. They produce millions of engines all w/ basically no probs. They have a huge name and rep built in larger equipment, They also put engines in many GM and Ferd trucks today.;)

Yes, maybe in larger engines. ( I would not trade the MBE 4000 in my Dads work truck for a CAT, that would be crazy. ) But in the smaller engines, they simply did not have a clue how to build them, and in 1999 they bought Perkins from MF. You cannot beat a Perkins, especially the smaller ones.

Im sure that eventually the enginers will figure out ways around the emissions junk. However, Its gonna come with a high price tag. :rolleyes:


This guy is getting what I'm talking about. Gasoline EFI/MPI/SFI has been around for 20 years working with emissions. We are just now starting with the diesels. Sure the stock power will be there, but I like non factory exhaust systems, and like the idea of being able to tinker. The whole issue would be non-existant if the new body style was so awsome I would just want the truck regarless of what emission regs it has to meet.

This guy is getting what I'm talking about. Gasoline EFI/MPI/SFI has been around for 20 years working with emissions. We are just now starting with the diesels. And, yes not being able to tinker is a fear of mine. I like none factory exhaust systems.

Becuase diesels dont need emissions, they are a very clean buring engine. Now due to even more rules the are slowly pulling diesels into the emissons war. Thus making diesels behind the times in terms of emissions.

Becuase diesels dont need emissions, they are a very clean buring engine

That is news to me. Less HC, more CO2? Regarless of how clean they are the DPF scares me.

Hopefully things just keep getting better, but this emissions thing could throw things for a loop for a while.

You weren't called an idiot. (I apologize if you percieved it this way). Your statement that 2008 diesels will be like 1973 gassers was idiotic and I stand by that statement.

The differences between fuel types (diesel vs gas) doesn't mean that diesels will have to start the 30 year emissions learning curve from scratch all over again.

Do you honestly believe that diesel emission/computerized fuel management/engine technology hasn't learned anything from gassers over a 30+ year period???

I really think that LMM will prove that it's the best Duramax ever. (lower emissions and better performance, what isn't there to like besides the price tag??)

I'm much more worried about 2010 then I am about 2008. I really think the next couple years will be the sweet spot. (ie New fresh truck design, highest output Duramax and proven Allison tranny)

P.S. The true muscle car era ending in the late 60's. Things got progressively worse until 1975 where they seemed to hit rock bottom. From 1976 onwards there was continuous improvement as technology caught up with regulations.

No apologies necessary. Bad day at work for me, and I was tipping the elbow a bit while surfing the net when I got home.

The cat came from gasoline, yes. Not too worried about the cat. I think the PF actually came from industrial emissions control...smoke stack scrubbers and the such. If the DPF has to feed back for regen, and other wonderful functions, I think we really got our work cut out for us (those of use who have enjoyed tinkering with LB7's, LLY, and LBZ's). I sure hope EFI Live will be able to just shut it off like it can the EGR. Who know's, maybe it will be a peice of cake.

I don't think it will be a 30 year performance drout. I'm worried that it will be more difficult to gain more power with more emissions controls.

At any rate, the point of my thread was to see if I should hold out for what the future holds. Sounds like most people think it's going to get continuously better, regarless of emissions. That's pretty much what I wanted to hear, but obvioulsy I have my doubts concerning the next round of emissions regs. Don't worry, I'll start another one of these threads again when that happens:D

Don't take this personally, but after looking at the new GM half ton, I was not impressed by anything. Everything sucked. Not to mention the tailgate....... do they even make them out of steel anymore. What a POS, it feels like if I were to drive an atv on it, I would completely ruin the tailgate, more so then just the hinges like I have done on our current truck. Everything on the vehicle looks cheaper and thinner. After seeing what I saw, I would buy an LBZ even if the LMM is a little better.

Hopefully GM didn't skimp that bad on the drivetrain, because if they did, it would never find 3/4 of the 100k mile warranty. WOW in a bad way.

On a positive note, it looked a ton better in person then it did in the pictures.

That is news to me. Less HC, more CO2? Regarless of how clean they are the DPF scares me.

Lets look at it this way, the EPA wanted ALL vehicals to comply correct..So If a gasser had to pass a certain level so did the diesel. Now if gas was clearner burning wouldnt it be 20+ years behind??

Lets also use the LB7 for example, it didnt have a cat cause it passed emissons w/ out it. But the gassers during 2001 and 2002 had cats, some even had 2.

Yes they belch black smoke ect, but when?!..when the engine is out of the OEM specs. Ever seen a stock dmax blow smoke? how about a modded dmax?

As a tree hugger and a mechanic I'm liking this thread...

I was in the market, and saw a long wait for what I wanted so I bought my truck for being what I believe to be the peak of the time. I agree that the LBZ is similar to a '70 or '71, but the two really aren't alike. But there are some points to that thought.
First, as covered, I feel the gassers didn't settle in until the late 80's when TBI's and roller valve train became standard. That is when one could easily eclipse the performance of those earlier monsters cleanly. I put that dead period from '72 to '87. The important point here is diesel power will NOT go thru that 15 year learning curve. The question for diesels is integration, not invention.

Next, there is a difference between factory power and modification potential. I'm betting the LBZ hit this peak. Beefiest so far with the fastest electronics and easily tweaked. For those wanting big power, the LBZ will give it and is not even fully opened up yet. The modabilty of the LMM will likely make the power also, as will the next gen after that, but not as open ended and cheap as the LBZ. So a peak of sorts...

I like excessive power, but we do need to be green. I like to able to mod and believe I will make the right choices. Fact is, many don't. Those people make it hard for people like me. We need laws for idiots for which people like me pay. The pessimist in me hates laws that restrict choice, or simply add cost. In the middle, I know most people are selfish and simple don't care what their impact is - screw the children. The optimist in me has faith is the few to solve these problems in ways we currently believe not to be possible. So, diesels can be clean. Many make them dirty. The greenies complain and create rules that are stifling. Engineers solve the problems in the coming years. And sooner or later a new age of performance is born. That will '11 or '12. Until then will be king among no real choices.

Cats? Ignorance! There is a big difference between industrial and consumer. Performance is an idea firmly planted in the CONSUMER category. In an industrial application endurance is king. Safety factors are huge. More power is translated by more size. Technology penetrates slowly. Fuel consumption is not the priority, nor is weight. Those factors are touted as they get better, but the progress is slow and behind the consumer sector. Point being, make no mistake, the Duramax 6.6 is on the line. It is very much a consumer based LIGHT duty engine. I feel the only of its kind offered in our market. We need more of this kind. The trade journals I read continually mention that Cat may push into the light market (for Toyota) but anything they currently make is out of place in a LIGHT application. The only manufacturer I feel that has a clue to this dividing line is Mercedes, oh sorry, DaimlarChrysler. They make both consumer performance and industrial. There is a clear difference. Our new machines will be coming with 12L 400HP I6 monsters, while 'over there' they make 300HP+ V8's in 4L for the 'consumer'. Very different machines. That I6 weighs 3 times that V8, makes half the HP/L, but will run 10+ hours a day while that V8 cruiser will run a few. Not the same. Anyway, the point is that the new fuel and new regulations will pave the way for a new generation, more like era, of CONSUMER diesels that we have been sorely missing out on. That will take a few more years. Think smaller, higher tech, higher efficiencies, etc. All good. Modability will be another question, one that WILL be answered.

To go back to the analogy, I say it is easy to build a SBC today that outperforms a factory '70's BBC in every way. For diesels we'll only have to wait 4 or 5 years for a similar progression. The LBZ in my opinion is the crossing point, and the pinnacle. I'm waiting for that Colorado\Canyon with AWD and a 4.9 Duramax getting 30+mpg and modable thru electrons to 350HP+ all pushing 4000 lbs. That will be fun. Then the blurred line the 6.6 straddles will clearly define again. The push for HP will relaxe as the 2500HD's and up go back to being a work truck and performance is being sold in smaller and lighter packages not intended to carry 5'ers.

sorry, what a ramble.......

what a very well thought out ramble, and I agree.

very good

Yea, just when we think we are at the peak, someone comes along and builds the mountain higher.
Dave

Well said, the only problem I may not need a 3500 in 6 years!

Didn't read the whole thread but let me guess..............all LBZ owners think the LBZ is the last great Diesel GM will ever produce and the LLM will be expensive, hard to mod, bla, bla, bla.............

This is not a point of inflection or the last great thing it is just part of the evolution of the Duramax.

Some reflected before the purchase...

I agree with you, The Original diesel.

Look on the bright side... when the last of the three stages in diesel engine emission reduction standards take effect on Jan. 1, 2010, according to GM's current plan, new diesels will have a five to seven gallon tank of urea solution that will be injected into the exhaust to meet the even tighter NOx standard. That tank or urea will have to be refilled about every 3,000 miles.

Wait a minute... that's the bright side?

(By the way, these three stages of tighter diesel emissions standards were set in 2000... sort of a parting "gift" from the Clinton administration.)

(By the way, these three stages of tighter diesel emissions standards were set in 2000... sort of a parting "gift" from the Clinton administration.)

I wonder where Monica was when Bill was wrapping this parting gift??:p:

I wonder where Monica was when Bill was wrapping this parting gift??:p:He used her blue dress for that.:D

Look on the bright side... when the last of the three stages in diesel engine emission reduction standards take effect on Jan. 1, 2010, according to GM's current plan, new diesels will have a five to seven gallon tank of urea solution that will be injected into the exhaust to meet the even tighter NOx standard. That tank or urea will have to be refilled about every 3,000 miles.

Wait a minute... that's the bright side?

(By the way, these three stages of tighter diesel emissions standards were set in 2000... sort of a parting "gift" from the Clinton administration.)Yeah, and the problem that the EPA is now pondering with is the fact that those new diesels will not run any better with the urea tanks full; the urea injection will be a post-treatment of the exhaust. So they will have to figure out a way to FORCE the drivers to spend the money to fill the urea tank when it runs dry. They will probably force the manufacturers to install sensors that will "limp" the engine when the urea tank runs dry.:eek:

It will all boil down to MORE cost to the driver with no signifficant improvement in the environmental quality. :mad: The only ones that will benefit will be the oil producing countries and the companies that make the urea fluid and dispensing equipment.

Yeah, and the problem that the EPA is now pondering with is the fact that those new diesels will not run any better with the urea tanks full; the urea injection will be a post-treatment of the exhaust. So they will have to figure out a way to FORCE the drivers to spend the money to fill the urea tank when it runs dry. They will probably force the manufacturers to install sensors that will "limp" the engine when the urea tank runs dry.:eek:

It will all boil down to MORE cost to the driver with no signifficant improvement in the environmental quality. :mad: The only ones that will benefit will be the oil producing countries and the companies that make the urea fluid and dispensing equipment.

Yep, you guys know reflective tape right? Its on semis ect...anyway the gov requires that 50% of ALL semi trailers be covered w/ this tape. Or you cant pass ports ect. Anyway 3M owns the plans for reflective tape so they charge about $3.75 a FOOT! Only 3M has rights to make it.

Quick math here, 50' (trailer) / 2 (half the trailer) = 25' * 2 (other side of trailer) = 50' so 50' * $3.75 = $187.50 pre trailer and how many trailers do you see on the road today??

If the gov finds a way to make more money they wont let it slip by :mad: to any future LMM owners, good luck :) ..the LBZ is the last good thing for a long while :o:

Reflective tape saves lives!

Reflective tape saves lives!

Easy now, I wasnt saying its bad :o: ..I was just stating that if they find a way to make money they wont stop. I was also using 3M in that they own the market and could charge $40 a foot if they wanted..and who has to pay? thats right every poor bastage that drives truck trying to make a decent living to support his family ect ;)

$40 * 50' = $2000 a trailer..I hope not! lol

Hmmm... maybe I'll put my LBZ in shrinkwrap & save it as an "investment" for 2011?

I'm glad I've already made the decision to make this truck my last for a looong time!

Don't worry some wag will come along with a new technology that uses a laser beam to zap the carbon particles in a reaction that also lowers NOX continuously, or some some such process. And don't forget the fuel, biodiesel burns cleaner, so further manipulation of diesel fuel itself can reduce pollution without requiring more engine add-ons. This is still an emerging technology. Why I read where a couple of highschool girls developed a way to produce biodiesel from green algea in sea water, eliminating the problem of limited cropland conversion and the stuff produced higher yields, no waste products and easier harvesting. So hang on to your hats and don't be glum, the diesel truck is going to be around for awhile despite the bureaucrats, pinheads and Birkenstock wearing Volvo driving mean-faced women in tweed jackets with Sierra Club bumper stickers.

Enjoyed the rant CwF you were spot on. I am looking forward to the 08 model, it should have any bugs worked out that crop up in 07 and not have the emissions requirements of an 09 or 10. I drive an older MB diesel and am waiting for 08 to purchase a diesel truck. I was really hoping for a 5.0 in the 1/2 ton with a six speed tranny and high 20's for MPG. Crew cab please.

the lmm trucks will be animals!!! there is no way to stop these diesel trucks.

Chicken little syndrome. The sky is not falling yet, I mean the trucks arn't even on the streets yet except for a few test mules.

We wont know for a while weather the lmm's will be better or worse.. But I plan on keeping my LBZ for at least the next few years, or longer until they get all the bugs worked out.

I think the solid front end would be awsome, a cat not so much. I would like to see a cummins put in gm's the duramax is good but would like to see a wet sleeved engine put in these trucks. I know even the dodge ram cummins arent wet sleeved but as i said i would like to see it. Cat is over rated. Like microsoft windows, a bad product sold cheap to the masses with good advertising. I know a wet sleeved engine would cost alot of money and for all practical purposes arent worth it , at least here in N. IL because of all the salt and rust. I personally think I will be ordering a 2009 truck/engine combo and trading off my lbz. (would keep my lbz if i could afford it). We will have to see as time will tell bu tearly ideas thrown around have included urea injection on the 2010 trucks to meet emissions. I definitly want somthing without that. I think I will personally give htem some time to get every last bug with the dpf's worked out and hten depending on exaxtly waht they come up w/ trade off before the new 2010 nightmares. I do know the price of these diesels are really starting to hamper the diesel market. At least w/me I dont do alot of towing but when I do the diesel is definitly the cats meow but with the price of a diesel already 8,000 option+ fuel etc etc and now this dpf and maintenance on that maybe have to go to a gaser and live with it when I do make a tow.

We wont know for a while weather the lmm's will be better or worse.. But I plan on keeping my LBZ for at least the next few years, or longer until they get all the bugs worked out.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. We are all just uncertain of the future. I know that I wanted an LBZ mainly because I do not know what to expect of the LMM. Knowing the history of the dmax would lead me to believe that the LMM will be even better but if you play the odds, maybe its better to go with a known engine rather than a somewhat unknown and unproven engine. At least IMHO.

We do need cleaner engines however they get to a point where its "good enough" . There comes a point where its good as they get. I think these new motors are great all that horse, fuel efficient and no black smoke. I think its a pain that I cant work on them like the old ones w/o a bunch of test equipment but waht do you do. Enough is enough though we need japan and china mexico to lower there emissions if we really want to make adent in the problem. What is everyones take on these new motors using MORE fuel. What comes out is cleaner but from wahtI have read mpg almost always goes down. With crude oil supplies limited, these motors are using more fuel. Say its just even .2 mpg loss (have heard more but lets jsut say .2) x the number of miles dirven by all diesel trucks every year for the next forever (once emissions get put into effect, they never come off). How many more gallons of fuel are we using how much faster are we using up all the crude in the world?

It's not like GM isn't testing this stuff. They're not like furd. HAHA!

I think the solid front end would be awsome, a cat not so much. I would like to see a cummins put in gm's the duramax is good but would like to see a wet sleeved engine put in these trucks. I know even the dodge ram cummins arent wet sleeved but as i said i would like to see it. Cat is over rated. Like microsoft windows, a bad product sold cheap to the masses with good advertising. I know a wet sleeved engine would cost alot of money and for all practical purposes arent worth it , at least here in N. IL because of all the salt and rust. I personally think I will be ordering a 2009 truck/engine combo and trading off my lbz. (would keep my lbz if i could afford it). We will have to see as time will tell bu tearly ideas thrown around have included urea injection on the 2010 trucks to meet emissions. I definitly want somthing without that. I think I will personally give htem some time to get every last bug with the dpf's worked out and hten depending on exaxtly waht they come up w/ trade off before the new 2010 nightmares. I do know the price of these diesels are really starting to hamper the diesel market. At least w/me I dont do alot of towing but when I do the diesel is definitly the cats meow but with the price of a diesel already 8,000 option+ fuel etc etc and now this dpf and maintenance on that maybe have to go to a gaser and live with it when I do make a tow.

Hey,

I respectfully disagree on the Cummins. It is not the diesel of all diesels. You have to give the DMAX a chance, also need to consider tha it met the emissions deadline before everyone else did ( didnt it? )!! Why do you think Cummins had to do some major work on the little 6 for Dodge? Lets give it a chance.

I wonder if they would program the truck to limp when the urea tank runs dry?

The duramax maybe infact a great engine. I think the 5.9 is better though. Having used them and worked on them a ton at work they are awsome. Not trying to start a fight. Not saying duramax's arent good, I jsut feel in my opnion a cummins would be better. If i had the options w/the gm quality, interior allison trans duramax/or cummins from the factory I would chose the cummins. I havew worked on a ton of these little 5.9 and 3.7liter cummins and they are awsome. They are put in everything from ford 8000 series trucks to pettibones, traverses (big shoot boom forklifts,) to 80 ft ariel lifts. They are used so widely and are awsome motors. It is one mans opinon but from waht I have seen Tehy are good engines.

If you really want a truck it would be the Gm/Chevy body and frame, Soild Front Axle and a CAT..Millions and millions of people would instantly drop their current trucks to buy one..I know I would in a heart beat :rolleyes:


x2

The duramax maybe infact a great engine. I think the 5.9 is better though. Having used them and worked on them a ton at work they are awsome. Not trying to start a fight. Not saying duramax's arent good, I jsut feel in my opnion a cummins would be better. If i had the options w/the gm quality, interior allison trans duramax/or cummins from the factory I would chose the cummins. I havew worked on a ton of these little 5.9 and 3.7liter cummins and they are awsome. They are put in everything from ford 8000 series trucks to pettibones, traverses (big shoot boom forklifts,) to 80 ft ariel lifts. They are used so widely and are awsome motors. It is one mans opinon but from waht I have seen Tehy are good engines. If the cummin is so awesome why do you own two chevrolet ,gmc at this time?

If you really want a truck it would be the Gm/Chevy body and frame, Soild Front Axle and a CAT..Millions and millions of people would instantly drop their current trucks to buy one..I know I would in a heart beat If they put a CAT in chevy/ gmc truck i hope it will be the C-16 600 hp or the C-13 twin turbo with their extreme race tune good for 1300 hp engine :)

A few thoughts here: First thing that comes to mind is that I intend to drive my 07 LBZ until it's eligible for "Antique" tags. It is a great truck that I willingly paid the premium for, and I will do my best to keep it well maintained and running for a long time. It performs well and yields acceptable mpg's.
Economics 101: Buy a good product and maximize the use you get out of it. Cheaper over the long run.
Second, by keeping it for a long time, it should see me through into the next generation of trucks. I traded a 1995 GMC Sierra 4WD Extended Cab with the 5.7 gasser. Nice truck when I bought it new, but nowhere near the power or performance as the LBZ. The BEST mileage I got was 14 -15 mpg. This is the worst I've gotten with my LBZ, and those were hunting miles - dirt roads, lots of hills, slower driving (read inefficient speeds), etc.
Third, the "greens" mean well, and things are a lot better, but how far are we going to take this? I'm in my 50's and have seen a tremendous change in our country throughout my life. Without going on a rant about all of the changes, I will say that pollution wise we have come a LONG way. I remember all too well as a youth seeing cars driving down the road spewing smoke like a chimney. Not to mention the old diesels that literally threw a cloud of black smoke behind them. Our water is much cleaner and we have made significant improvements in our waste management. No lead in paint, no asbestos in buildings, etc. But before we choke our economy to death with ever tightening regs, lets take a look at some of the other countries who are putting out much, much more pollution than we are. I guess my point here is how much is enough?
So as to the question is the LBZ the last of a good thing, most likely not but there may be a hiccup or two along the way until we hit the next level of truck performance. Stay tuned and watch for the next leap in alternative fuels. I have a lot of faith in our ability to overcome obstacles.

I own 2 chevrolets becaue the dodge truck and powertrain suck. I like the motors but the dodge truck suck. squeeks rattles, drivetrain sucks. Ford 6.0 sucks as well as their drivetrains.Ford did away with the 7.3 which was a decent engine. I bought my 6.5 because I got a decent deal on it, but the 7.3 was a better motor then the 6.5 . (tryign to compare apples to apples. I am a huge chevy fan, and the duramax is a good engine w/a great trans (the ally). I think the cummins w/an ally would be awsome like I have seen in many trucks and driven many times. I have driven a few international wreckers w/5.9's and ally trans's and they were awsome.

Without going on a rant about all of the changes, I will say that pollution wise we have come a LONG way. I remember all too well as a youth seeing cars driving down the road spewing smoke like a chimney. Not to mention the old diesels that literally threw a cloud of black smoke behind them. Our water is much cleaner and we have made significant improvements in our waste management. No lead in paint, no asbestos in buildings, etc. But before we choke our economy to death with ever tightening regs, lets take a look at some of the other countries who are putting out much, much more pollution than we are. I guess my point here is how much is enough?


Exactly

x2

i have to say i love the dmax.. i do. when we bought our LLY when our 6.5 left us stranded in the middle of indiana we looked at the cummins and the dmax. the ONLY way i'd get a cummins is if it was STRICTLY a work truck. in my life i've seen cummins do amazing things. my dads 350 cummins (tractor trailer) 1.4mill on it and it just keeps running! smokes like no tomorrow but runs its 800 miles aday! we just bought a 3406 cat a few hours ago. time will tell!

as far as the emisions go... nothing you can do about it so its eather if you dont feel comfterable with the LMM stick with a LBZ. thats just my take on it tho.

i have to say i love the dmax.. i do. when we bought our LLY when our 6.5 left us stranded in the middle of indiana we looked at the cummins and the dmax. the ONLY way i'd get a cummins is if it was STRICTLY a work truck. in my life i've seen cummins do amazing things. my dads 350 cummins (tractor trailer) 1.4mill on it and it just keeps running! smokes like no tomorrow but runs its 800 miles aday! we just bought a 3406 cat a few hours ago. time will tell!

as far as the emisions go... nothing you can do about it so its eather if you dont feel comfterable with the LMM stick with a LBZ. thats just my take on it tho.
I will stick with the lbz until they get this dpf figured out. Depending on what the figure out for 2010 may get a new one of them before that comes out. 855 cummins (855 cubic inches) which im sure your dads truck was were arguably the best motors EVER esp in semi trucks. Really strong engines parts numerous, plentiful and cheap. I think he made a huge mistake going w/the 3406, just price a overhaul for it. Alot of people swear by them and at them. time will tell. If i were getting a truck i would look for something w/ a n14 red top or signature 600 preferably. If I had alot of money itd be a 78 kenworth tri axle dobule frame w/a twin turboed kta 1150 cummins. We can all dream

Not sure if it was just rumor but wasn't there talk of a 7.4l Duramax being tested for the 2010 model year?... close to 400hp.. I thought I read that from somewhere on this site or on another site or in a truck mag(not sure). If that is the case than things can get better in a hurry.

Oh Pretty Please :D :D

I will stick with the lbz until they get this dpf figured out. Depending on what the figure out for 2010 may get a new one of them before that comes out. 855 cummins (855 cubic inches) which im sure your dads truck was were arguably the best motors EVER esp in semi trucks. Really strong engines parts numerous, plentiful and cheap. I think he made a huge mistake going w/the 3406, just price a overhaul for it. Alot of people swear by them and at them. time will tell. If i were getting a truck i would look for something w/ a n14 red top or signature 600 preferably. If I had alot of money itd be a 78 kenworth tri axle dobule frame w/a twin turboed kta 1150 cummins. We can all dream
well, SUPOSEDLY my dads is a NTC-14 that was degraded to a 350 i dunno but the truck just keeps going and going... and going... its on ebay now i'm hoping it goes quickly. he only got the 3406 because i mean its a T800 sleeper with just over 500k for oh 10k and the truck is mint!! haha

i'm sure that they'll get the dpf figured out quite quickly. i mean people were also worried about when the dmax first came out. common a diesel with alum. heads?!

I read all of this thread just now...It's amazing how much of our worries of not being able to "turn up" our diesel trucks (and those w/ gas trucks as well ) would be solved if we used cleaner burning, eco-friendly Bio-fuels. Hell, the government would probably encourage us to up the output of our trucks.

more power = need more fuel = need more soybeans (or corn or green algea) = screw the rag heads!!! = more $ for U.S.A's farmers = more $ for farmers to spend on trucks to make more power

What a wonderful vicious cycle!

well said

But before we choke our economy to death with ever tightening regs, lets take a look at some of the other countries who are putting out much, much more pollution than we are. I guess my point here is how much is enough?
:exactly:

[quote=shep;1487979;]Imore power = need more fuel = need more soybeans (or corn or green algea) = screw the rag heads!!! = more $ for U.S.A's farmers = more $ for farmers to spend on trucks to make more power
:agreed: :anitoof:

I read all of this thread just now...It's amazing how much of our worries of not being able to "turn up" our diesel trucks (and those w/ gas trucks as well ) would be solved if we used cleaner burning, eco-friendly Bio-fuels. Hell, the government would probably encourage us to up the output of our trucks.

more power = need more fuel = need more soybeans (or corn or green algea) = screw the rag heads!!! = more $ for U.S.A's farmers = more $ for farmers to spend on trucks to make more power

What a wonderful vicious cycle!


:exactly: And more money for Canadian farmers too!!!

Cats are the DIRRTIEST diesels around... period

QUOTE]It's amazing how much of our worries of not being able to "turn up" our diesel trucks (and those w/ gas trucks as well ) would be solved if we used cleaner burning, eco-friendly Bio-fuels. Hell, the government would probably encourage us to up the output of our trucks.

more power = need more fuel = need more soybeans (or corn or green algea) = screw the rag heads!!! = more $ for U.S.A's farmers = more $ for farmers to spend on trucks to make more power

What a wonderful vicious cycle![/QUOTE]
Amen screw the starving kids we nee dmore power for our trucks. lol j/j. I would turn up my truck if coudl buy a cheap renewable fuel.[QUOTE]Cats are the DIRRTIEST diesels around... period/QUOTE] Exacltyadamblattel, cummins seriously was one of the first to meet the mmission standards.

Notice that you didn't say anything about oil companies in there? Thats the main reason nothing like that will ever be done, til its too late....the oil companies run our government. Sorry, thats my opinion.

I read all of this thread just now...It's amazing how much of our worries of not being able to "turn up" our diesel trucks (and those w/ gas trucks as well ) would be solved if we used cleaner burning, eco-friendly Bio-fuels. Hell, the government would probably encourage us to up the output of our trucks.

more power = need more fuel = need more soybeans (or corn or green algea) = screw the rag heads!!! = more $ for U.S.A's farmers = more $ for farmers to spend on trucks to make more power

What a wonderful vicious cycle!
there is only 1 problem that i see. it would affect the livestock farmers in the way of buying grain for the live stock. my unlce didnt like that \ the cost of grain increase by 50%. his feeding bill just went through the roof. that mean the meat market prices will go up as well in the stores.:mad:

well what about our diesel costs, fertilizer costs and other petroleum base products for farmers? we cant afford to pay for diesel, fertilizer at these prices and not have a good market price for cotton, rice, etc.. We've never spend this much money on diesel alone, biodiesel is the best thing to ever happen

just got back for the detroit international auto show, and saw the duramax lmm display engine. i dont know about you but i dont like the idea of a throttle valve on the intake, the egr system is three times larger the the lbz, i really dont like the dpf and the fact that it has to be heated up to over 1000 deg. by fuel being injected on the exhaust stroke to clean the filter. all this stuff is the reason i got an 06 lbz instead of waiting for the new body. actually seeing the new emissions systems actually reinforced my decision. just my opinion no hard feelings on the lmm afterall it is still a duramax

should just wait on the 2010 dmax. Its a complete redesign. first one built in japan last month.. I am sure it will be worth waiting for only 2.5 years.... that means it will be thoroughly tested since built already..


2004.5 dmax cc with predator. 285's bfg's

should just wait on the 2010 dmax. Its a complete redesign. first one built in japan last month.. I am sure it will be worth waiting for only 2.5 years.... that means it will be thoroughly tested since built already..


2004.5 dmax cc with predator. 285's bfg's

Hey,

Do you have any of the juicy details concerning it for us??

should just wait on the 2010 dmax. Its a complete redesign. first one built in japan last month.. I am sure it will be worth waiting for only 2.5 years.... that means it will be thoroughly tested since built already..


2004.5 dmax cc with predator. 285's bfg's

The 2010 diesels will have much more stringent emissions equipment requirement.

Sorry but I think the LMM will be the sweet spot for quite some time. Higher performace and only a DPF filter to worry about. No radical changes to the basic proven design.

should just wait on the 2010 dmax. Its a complete redesign. first one built in japan last month.. I am sure it will be worth waiting for only 2.5 years.... that means it will be thoroughly tested since built already..
You are confusing the new, smaller all-new diesel that is slated be offered in the light-duty segment (1500 trucks & SUVs) by 2010. This will not the a new version of the current Duramax, though it too may be branded as a "Duramax" engine.

http://dieselplace.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1299709&postcount=1

Wow Mr. One Ton - What color is your DMax? I want to make sure I keep my old 80 Honda Goldwing out of your way! Riding, I don't bother to carry a single tool, not even a screwdriver. Send me all the Hondas you don't want. Bill Martin

You are confusing the new, smaller all-new diesel that is slated be offered in the light-duty segment (1500 trucks & SUVs) by 2010. This will not the a new version of the current Duramax, though it too may be branded as a "Duramax" engine.
it will be offered faster than that. They talk about a 1500 diesel in the late 2007 as a 2008 model...

it will be offered faster than that. They talk about a 1500 diesel in the late 2007 as a 2008 model...
Who are "they" ? Did you overhear them talking?

Can you cite something that corroborates the claim that the all-new smaller diesel will be on sale in less than a year?

The article I previously cited states:
"Light-duty pickups, SUVS, and other large vehicles to get all-new diesel after 2009."

The GM press release announcing the all-new smaller diesel states:

"General Motors Corp. will introduce a new V-8 turbo-diesel that improves engine fuel efficiency by 25 percent for North American light duty trucks after 2009."

ref.: http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=39&docid=28147

Can you cite something that corroborates the claim that the all-new smaller diesel will be on sale in less than a year? I received a publicity doccument from the official GM company at my house that talk about that. They do not mention a lot of info like v8 or v6, displacement hp/tq or if the motor will be called a duramax but they clearly said that they will have 1500 diesel aviable for 2008. They are supposed to be aviable about 1 year only after the new hd series..The very popular car s and truck buyer guide in Canada have made this announce in the new silverado page. And they never put that kind of info in their book if its just a rumor. Or just make a search on google for 1500 diesel. Even if you cant beleive all the info you will find here the majority of the article that you will see will talk about end 2007 or 2008 begening for the new 1500 diesel with a smaller cubic inch size than the current hd series duramax...

I am not confusing with anything other than the new dmax for the HD's in 2010. I know this for a fact. It is suppose to be twin turbos, and don't have any other info at the present time, but will in the future. I have a feeling they are designing a very competitive motor as always regardless of the emissions. I have more than just a reliable source...that is all I will say to keep things fair to GM and my friend.

...Or just make a search on google for 1500 diesel...

This is what google search returns (not exactly corroborative):

GM-Trucks.com -> 1500 Diesel - The GM Truck Enthusiast Website ... (http://www.gm-trucks.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52713)
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... 12 Oct 2006 20:15:11 GMT yes, and they did not make a 1500 diesel. the diesel engine only comes in 2500 and 3500 models.
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I received a publicity doccument from the official GM company at my house that talk about that. They do not mention a lot of info like v8 or v6, displacement hp/tq or if the motor will be called a duramax but they clearly said that they will have 1500 diesel aviable for 2008. They are supposed to be aviable about 1 year only after the new hd series..The very popular car s and truck buyer guide in Canada have made this announce in the new silverado page. And they never put that kind of info in their book if its just a rumor. Or just make a search on google for 1500 diesel. Even if you cant beleive all the info you will find here the majority of the article that you will see will talk about end 2007 or 2008 begening for the new 1500 diesel with a smaller cubic inch size than the current hd series duramax...
Can you scan that document and post it?

I've learned the hard way that GM doesn't even know what GM is doing.;)

more power = need more fuel = need more soybeans (or corn or green algea) = screw the rag heads!!! = more $ for U.S.A's farmers = more $ for farmers to spend on trucks to make more power

What a wonderful vicious cycle!

Hi, Im just a lurker here but have been on this board for over a year.

The problem with the "cure all" bio fuels is that more demand leads to higher prices in the consumer markets for soybeans, corn etc..the only way to lower the prices would be to increase production that leads to consuming more bio-fuels(to run the equipment used to harvest the corn), wildlife habitat destruction, and most notably desertification from the lack of nutrients, bacteria, and other small organisms in the soil that make for good farmland from the overuse of the land that the crops are grown on...

The middle east was not always a desert!! In biblical times and before it was known as the "fertile crescent". Lots of plants thrived(how else would the oil get there??), and the land was used for farming. The overuse of the land without replenishing the soil (read: composting) made the land where it could not hold what little nutrients were left and they were leeched down into the earth and all that was left on the top is sand, that nothing could be grown in.....Now thats a viscious cycle

Hi, Im just a lurker here but have been on this board for over a year.

The problem with the "cure all" bio fuels is that more demand leads to higher prices in the consumer markets for soybeans, corn etc..the only way to lower the prices would be to increase production that leads to consuming more bio-fuels(to run the equipment used to harvest the corn), wildlife habitat destruction, and most notably desertification from the lack of nutrients, bacteria, and other small organisms in the soil that make for good farmland from the overuse of the land that the crops are grown on...

The middle east was not always a desert!! In biblical times and before it was known as the "fertile crescent". Lots of plants thrived(how else would the oil get there??), and the land was used for farming. The overuse of the land without replenishing the soil (read: composting) made the land where it could not hold what little nutrients were left and they were leeched down into the earth and all that was left on the top is sand, that nothing could be grown in.....Now thats a viscious cycle

I completely understand what you are saying. Overusing the land would not be good, but in my rant I also mentioned an alternative or addl source - algae. The combination of land AND sea sources would be the best alternative.

I agree that bio fuels are a very good short term solution(10-25 yrs) to the energy problem but the goverment needs to fund focused research on a more sustainable long term solution for our energy demands such as wind, geothermal or tidal power, not just a band aid to the problem. If we lessen our dependance on petroleum for Home and Commercial power, we will be able to drive whatever we want :D

Hell, I love my diesel truck more than anyone and am by no means a tree hugger, but at 23 years old this problem will have a major impact on my generation and the generations to follow.

Yeah, I'm just a few years ahead of ya knockin' on 3 0. Buisnesses need to be taking the brunt of this energy crisis. Solar panels on sky scrapers, windmills where ever you can put a windmill , and a generator hooked up to every stationary bike at every gym in America! That should help out some.