Lots of opinions out there on which filter etc....How about which fuel additive is better/best. I have heard a lot of good things about Primrose and FPPF....What about Power Services and any other brands out there?

Depends on what you want to do. YOU need to decide which people you believe, the emulsify or the demulsify group. Then you can decide which additive you want to use.





FPPF and Primrose emulsify the water, my personal choice. IIRC Power Service is in the de group.

I have been using power service for about 18,000 miles and I love it. I have not seen the mileage decrease like some have with the additives. i have a friend with the same truck and about 2,000 more miles and he uses nothing, and his water bowl on his primary always looks dirty, mine is as clean as a whisle. ( Its not dirt in his bowl, just slimy stuff) I run the diesel Kleen in the summer for the cetane and the anti gel in the winter.....


The best part about it is I can get it anywhere, no special orders...





ISNMU

I use Power Service also, seems to work well. Edited by: John R

I can honestly say all I go buy is an educated guess and the years of experience of George Morrison. I simply don't have a clue.

I emulsify with Primrose 405.

I have 3/4 case of Stanadyne left that I will sell cheap. Let me know if interested.

For the first 40,000+ miles I ran Howe's and didn't have a clue that I had problems with water rusting my OEM filters. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Can't say that I actually received any positive or negative benefits from using it. Am currently on my 4th tank since switching to FPPF and again can tell no difference ..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif.. like Hoot I've decided to listen to the recommendations of Geroge, JK and some others and can only hope I've made the right decision to switch from a demulsifer to an emulsifer ... Jim

I'm confused. I use Power service . Some have said here that Power Service is a demulsifier. On the bottle it claims to "Disperse Water". That sounds like an emulsifier to me. George, which is it?

I am sorry but I do not have any 'real world' experience that I can share for Power Service Products.
George Morrison

Wrote to them and asked which it is, will post the answer when I get it.

For the first 40,000+ miles I ran Howe's and didn't have a clue that I had problems with water rusting my OEM filters. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif Can't say that I actually received any positive or negative benefits from using it. Am currently on my 4th tank since switching to FPPF and again can tell no difference ..http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif.. like Hoot I've decided to listen to the recommendations of Geroge, JK and some others and can only hope I've made the right decision to switch from a demulsifer to an emulsifer ... Jim

Howes Diesel Fuel Conditioner


According to Howes informatiom


Injectors and Fuel Filters lasting up to three times longer.


Engine smoking significantly decreased or stopped.


A decrease in oil consumption.


Encapsulating water molecules that burn off harmlessly.


IS THIS NOT AN EMULSIFIER

Sounds like it to me but maybe not a good one??

i'm guessing that power service emulsifies. From the website it says:
<LI>Prevents corrosion of fuel system components
<LI>Stabilizes stored fuel - protects against conditions that promote microbial growth </LI>


free water is a condition that promotes microbial growth and corrosion


Am i wrong in making this assumption?

I have recently got some Scheaffers additive and it looks like it may be a hidden diamond...

I wrote to Power Services the below e-mail:
Hello,
Could you please tell me if “Diesel Fuel Supplement +Cetane Boost” is an emulsifier (disperses water in the fuel) or a demulsifier (removes water). The bottle says that it disperses water in fuel. I currently use in my Duramax diesel and there is some debate in the GM diesel on-line community regarding your product and I would like to definitively clarify it.
Thank you,
Steve
Their response:
Dear Mr. xxxxxxx,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> GM just recently issued a Technical Bulletin warning not to use any product with alcohols or emulsifiers. Emulsifiers are chemicals that pull water up into the fuel, or suspends the water in droplet form in the fuel. Emulsifiers will cause fuels to look cloudy. Alcohols can adversely affect lubricity and the cheaper alcohols can damage pumps and injectors. In the winter months when the temperature drops below freezing, these water droplets can freeze on the filter face of the water separator causing the flow of fuel to stop, even though the fuel is still liquid. It does not take much water to cause Fuel Filter Icing problems. Ford has also come out with a Technical Bulletin not to use any alcohols but I have not seen any reports by Ford on emulsifiers. </DIV>
<DIV>





Demulsifiers will cause excess water to fall out of the fuel. This water will fall to the bottom of the fuel tank or fuel system and can cause corrosion, rust, reduced lubricity and in the winter months it can strip antigels out of your fuel. Also, there are about a dozen demulsifiers or de-hazers on the market. None of them will work on all fuels. They are fuel specific and when an additive company says they use demulsifiers in their additives it is for advertisement purposes only. If you talk to any Chemist that knows anything about demulsifiers they will tell you the same thing.


Our Diesel Fuel Supplement contains a deicer that is intended to keep the water in the fuel from falling out. Warm fuel will carry more water than cold fuel. When it gets cold some water can fall out of the fuel, or the water separator can squeeze out this water which can freeze on the filter face and cause the fuel from flowing through the filter even though the fuel is still liquid. This is call Fuel Filter Icing and is often mistaken for fuel gelling. The deicer can also help to pick up small amounts of water in the fuel system. If too much water is in the fuel tank it can overpower the deicer in the Diesel Fuel Supplement.





Our Diesel Kleen is a summer additive and it is intended to give you the very best injector cleaner, cetane, lubricity, fuel stability package and corrosion protection. It will not do much for water.


There is a lot of misinformation<S

The video on the FPPF website shows what happens when their product, "Fuel Power" is mixed into a bottle with fuel and water. The mixture DOES NOT turn cloudy after the FPPF is added.

Well, there is a very clear answer http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_4.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_4.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_4.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)<A href="http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001" target="_blank">
</A>




</A>http://www.smileycentral.com/sigpc=ZSzeb009 (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb009)

Is it just me or did he avoid an answer??

Is it just me or did he avoid an answer??


Yeah, sounds like the type of answer you would get from a politician ! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Throw Up.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Dead.gif

I guess the only way to find out is to put some diesel fuel in a clear bottle, add water, then add the 911 or whatever product you want to test, and see if it turns cloudy. If it does, then you don't want to use that product.

Amazing that he would take time to elaborate, BS or not. It seems to me like he is trying to sell a difference between emulsified water, and solubilized water. Is there really a difference?


P.S. My girlfriend is sitting next to me, and she thinks I'm rather psycho for concerning myself with this stuff. I recently changed her fuel filter with 120k miles on it due to a no start condition.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif --SS

I wrote to Power Services too. I got the same answewr first. After I got that answer I wrote back and asked him to just answer the question I ask, emusifier or a demusifer?? Here's the answer I got back:


It is neither. There is not enough room in the container to put an effective
water dispersant. If you have a water or water related problem you should
use the Diesel 911 to get the water under control and then continue to use
the Diesel Kleen.

Emulsifiers are not recommended and demulsifers will not work in a general
use additive. To solubilize water you have to use a large amount of an
additive to effectively take care of the water problem. Multi purpose
additives cannot contain a strong lubricity, detergent, cetane boost,
corrosion and stability package and sill have room to carry the necessary
chemical to control water.

I gave all the details so that you and other consumers will realize that
there are a lot of additives making strong claims about how their additive
does everything and take care of water too. Once you have the details, you
can make a better choice, get more for your money and not be mislead by
inflated claims.

Sincerely,

Brian Wilson
Technical Support
Power Service Products, Inc.





Seems if your using this stuff your getting no water protection since "there isn't enough room in the bottle for it" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

How about a bigger bottle so they can add the water protection?


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Amazing that the Primrose George sells can fit it in the bottle and do the job with about 1 oz per tankful.





Not that I was evger going to use the PS products but now I certainly will not be using them!

Well PS sure looks like they're shoveling a lot of BS. I've walked out of car show rooms when salesmen talked around in circles like thishttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Angry.gif.

If that isn't "snake oil" talk I don’t know what is.

Glad I read this. I was just about to by some Power Service this week at Wal-Mart after reading some of the previous posts. I figured it was as good as any and Wal-Mart is convenient.

I am now going to order the Stanadyne from Diesel Injection Service. It’s made by an Injector manufacturer and GM recommends it. Done!


Edited by: JohnnyO

DOHhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif

I just watched the videos on FPPF's site. Did anyone else notice that on the first video, entitled, "Clean Burning", that at the very end of the video there APPEARS to be an asterick by the words "No Harmful Alcohols *" What exactly does that mean? If they don't have ANY alcohol, then why would they put an asterick by that statement? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif


file:///C:/documents%20and%20Settings/Owner/Desktop/fppf.JPG


I'm currently using FPPF, and it's nothing that I'm really worried about, I just found this to be curious. The first time that I opened up the bottle, I could have sworn that Fuel Power was just clear Windex. That sure is what it smells like...


cadman_ks

I think the Power Service guy is saying that to solubilize the water and emulsify the water are two different things. I don't supposed that there are any chemists afoot?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

I used FPPF for the first 10k with very good results. Unfortunately I can not get it locally and mail order prices have gone up to the point that FPPF and cetane boost would cost $4 a tank. I ordered Primrose 409 from George. I tried the water test and it does turn cloudy as it emulsifys. No suprise there. Primrose from George runs about $1.60 a tank. I do not use and will not use Power service because I do not like the spin cycle answers they put out as a company. This is the same reason I refuse to use any Amsoil products. It seems like PS is full of BS saying let the water seperate and set in your tank all year than add the one miracle bottle and burn all that water up in one tank ! I am going to burn up the Promrose and see what my results are but after that I think I am just switching to what GM recommends. This is my second Dmax. I put 70k on my '02 and did not know anything about extra filteration DFA or the endless debates about additives. I never had any problems or water issues. I changed the factory filter every 15k. I wrote to one of our resident experst when I first was trying to decide which side of the fence to ride on. I asked about the water in fuels and the crazy answer I got was "have you ever seen any water in your fuel ?" http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wacko.gif Which I thought was a bit of a whacko answer. If that is in fact the case that there is only microscopic amounts ( 20 ppm ) in Diesel than all of this Hype is fairly moot and revolves around selling products. I asked EVERY resident expert here what product works best if you take in abnormal amounts of water with bad fuel. I never got a straight answer from any of them leading me to believe that in such a event NONE of the brands would offer any more protection than the next. Personally that was the primary thing I am concerened about with water. IE Bad Fuel NOT the average 20 ppm in my fuel that is normal. I realize this does not gel with the normal view here. I have decided to just Run Standyne in the future, Skip the extra filter unless GM approves one and change my factory filter every 10k. Edited by: BlueMaxxxx

After reading everything I could find from every Diesel forum, GM or otherwise, for the past 6 months, I am in the Standyne camp. Who knows if I made the right choice or not, but I'm going to stick with it and see what happens.


As for Power Service, I thought his answer was very clear. Many people can't agree between emulsify and demusify, so what is the big deal that PS doesn't do either. I don't want any water being injected into a combustion chanber that may be at 1300+ degrees. I don't think it will stay liquid for long. I am counting on the filters to separate the water, and I don't think a demusifier is required to do that. In fact I would gladly trade some water control for more lubricity.


Most people would never go to the extra trouble, but it would be interesting if an additive company would separate their anti-gel, ceaner, cetane, lubricity, stabalizer, corrosion protection, and water control into separate offerings. This way each of us could mix them in the ratios that fit how we use our trucks and where we live.

Been using FPPF, 1 to 1 ratio of total power &amp; Cetane +8, 6 oz. per tank, year round . . . . 20,000 miles &amp; no problems yet (of course, this is the kiss of death!!), except it's a pain in the butt to add it at the pump, especially in the cold.

I’m probably in the minority, but I quit using FPPF Total Power after my DMAX developed a rough idle, and was nosier as I accelerated onto the freeway. The idle was not real rough, but just enough to bother me when sitting at stoplights. The noise when accelerating hard was like a mild ping. Again, probably not a big issue, but enough to bother me. I was careful to mix according to instructions on the back of the bottle (1.5 ratio). Since I quit using it, my engine is smooth and quiet again. Possibly FPPF does not mix well with the diesel additives used by the station where I fill? I believe that local diesel suppliers have additives that they add to their fuel. Either way, I know that many are happy with Total Power.

Roegs ~ noticed the same thing myself. I'm guessing its result of winterzed fuel not really needing as much. I'm saving mine til summer and using something else. Edited by: ShumDit

A chemist friend of mine says there is a difference between emulsifying and solublizing. Could be a significant difference on what to get. To be honest it sounds like a few different companies seem to do the solubilizing such as Howes as well as the Power Service. Kinda seems that there should be a standard system set up that included a labeling system on the bottles to identify the different types. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif
Read my chemist friends reply below

<font color="blue">Yes, there is a difference between emulifying and solubilizing. The classic example for an emulsion from everyday life is a mixture of salad oil and water. If you remember, the oil and water in the bottle are in seperate layers, but by shaking them together you get a cloudy liquid (which then goes on the saled). On a microscopic level, there are very tiny drops of water dispersed in the oil (or tiny drops of oil in the water, depending on your perspective). Within the drops are lots of water molecules all stuck together. If you just let the bottle sit for a while, it will reform the two layers. Especially with certain chemicals added, emultions are sometimes hard to 'break' that is, to reseparate into the two distinct layers.

Dissolving is a little different. For one example, putting sugar into water. Once dissolved, the sugar won't reform as a solid on the bottom of the glass of water. At a molecular level, single molecules of sugar are dispersed in a 'sea' of water. A rule for of thumb for dissolving is 'like dissolves like'. The closer in chemical structure and properties two substances are the greater the amount that will dissolve. Eventually the solubility of the substance will be reached, and any extra that is added will settle into a second layer. IE, enough sugar in the water will to no more being dissolved in the water, at that point a sediment will appear at the bottom.

Solubility is also effected by temperature. For instance, carbon dioxide is more soluble in water. That's why as a 'flat' cold soda heats up, more gas will form and exit the solution. Other substances increase in solubility as the temperature increases, which leads to purification processes such as crystalization. </font>http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Here is the difference between solubilization and eumulsification...

Solubilization - The water is actually made so that it mixes WITH the fuel. This is a true mixing of the water and fuel. The water actuall becomes part of the fuel.

Emulsification - The water is mixed with the fuel, but is in dropplet form. Kind of like putting yogurt and coke together in a blender. They wont really mix, but the yogurt is suspended in the coke.

I have a lot of respect for George and others on the forum who recommend emulsification, and I agree with them. However, it directly violates GM's postion. GM made their postion very clear in the SB. From a warranty perspective, I'll probably switch to Stanadyne.

For what it's worth, I was browsing the GM tech service forums on service.gm.com a while back and one of the techs on there was saying how an IP had been ruined by a gulp of water. He was making light of it since he had found a couple empty bottles of the "wrong additive" in the bed, so the customer was going to have to pay for the repair. I can't post to the forums, or I would have to ask what the "wrong additive" was. I just spent the better part of an hour looking for that post and couldn't find it so I don't have any more details than what I can remember. I use FPPF (for now), but have instructed my wife that if she ever has problems with the truck on the road to tell the service department we don't use additives (I always premeausure the additive into some of her big syringes so there are no bottles in the truck ever). Less hassle to lie that way then to battle gm.

I have been using PS for 20 years without a single problem. I run straight fuel oil (uncut) 'year round with Ps @ 96oz. per 150 gals..


Just my 2 cents for whatever thats worth.


I buy the PS from my local GM dealer for $8.50 Gal :)

Oh, forgot to mention, its -27 D. F here right now.

Oh, forgot to mention, its -27 D. F here right now.





Having a warm spell are ya? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Just for review, what was FPPF again?

Just for review, what was FPPF again?


FPPF is a manufacturer of additives, I don't think I know what it stands for, they just go by the abbreviation, like STP.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

I have been using PS for 20 years without a single problem. I run straight fuel oil (uncut) 'year round with Ps @ 96oz. per 150 gals..


Just my 2 cents for whatever thats worth.


I buy the PS from my local GM dealer for $8.50 Gal :)








Tut69,


Pardon my ignorance. What is P.S.? What is fuel oil?Edited by: Bronco

Since Dodge has gone to a similar injection system on their diesel, does anyone know what type of additive (emulsify vs. demulsify) that they recommend?

Emulsification - The water is mixed with the fuel, but is in dropplet form. Kind of like putting yogurt and coke together in a blender. They wont really mix, but the yogurt is suspended in the coke.




I've never tried that, Did it taste any good.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

No way man. Yougurt and coke? Way to healthy to be putting in my body.





Anyone know the shelf life of Stanadyne? I have a case that is about four years old and was wondering if it is any good.