Once my vehicle is back from the shop I am considering installing water mist injection or an intercooler. Which is better for power and temp control and what are others experiences with each of them on a 6.5L?


Further, which brands work best or does anyone have plans and parts list for homebuilt one (water mist injection) or which OEM intercooler (Duramax, Ford, Dodge) fit and work best on a 6.5L?

If you intend to do any serious towing, go with the intercooler. The thread http://dieselplace.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10883&PN=1 documents my Suburban's current level of performance.


I participated in the Diesel Page Pull-Off last weekend and made 42 mph in 1:22 minutes pulling a utility trailer loaded to 11,920 lb. The hill is a 6% grade. The contest starts at a dead stop at one mile marker and ends at the next mile marker. If I'd run again and lifted a little to let it shift into third, I think I could have done better. I had actually achieved 46 mph but dropped speed at the very top of the RPM band. A 2004 Dodge Cummins 600 with exhaust and air filter made 49 mph on the same hill with the same trailer.Edited by: ronniejoe

Gee,


Why not ask an easy question like "Whats the best religon?" or "Does proper chili have beans?"http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


There are pluses and minuses for each method, and each has its rabid supporters, and equally rabid detractors. To me, it all comes down to bux. If you can come up with $1000 without even breaking a sweat go with an intercooler. Otherwise, you can get 75% of the benefits for 40% of the cash with the Water Mist. (factoring out the need to keep the tank full)


Tim

get a pair of breathers, plug the PCV recirc inlet and you'll never look back, except to see who you just passed.

need to know more texas diesel guy

Hey TDG


Got pic and part numbers by chance??


I am very interested in this mod.

What do you mean?


get a pair of breathers, plug the PCV recirc inlet and you'll never look back, except to see who you just passed.


Won't pluggin the PVC build internal engine pressure? Or do you mean remove the PVC and put in a valve cover breather on it? Does the other breather go on the oil filler neck or other valve cover?

Texas Diesel Guy,


Why is it that you always have a "no expense, better than anything else" mod that you throw out? None of the mods that you've mentioned can come close to matching the performance that I've achieved with my Suburban. Since you have a Blazer, it's clear that you don't tow anything very heavy, so maybe what you're doing works for you, but it wouldn't do well the way I work my truck.


When you post stuff like that, it reads as though you're the only person on the planet who knows anything and all the stuff done and developed by others is a waste. That's really pretty ridiculous.


Physics says that intercooling is needed to substantially increase boost pressure (which I've done) and that high boost pressure makes diesel engines produce more power. Essentially, the modifications I've made are duplicating what over the road trucks and late model pickups do. It works. Aside from the fact that your Blazer would be dangerous hooked up to a 12,000 lb. trailer, there is no way you could pull it the way I have demonstrated with my Suburban.


While it is clear that you have significant experience with DS-4 pumps, it is also clear that you are lacking in experience towing heavy loads with 6.5 diesels. The little gimicks you mention cannot hold a candle to the performance that I have achieved with my Suburban. Others have achieved similar results with a similar approach. It is documented and it works.Edited by: ronniejoe

I accept your challenge Ronnie, intercooler, chip, wastegate controller, bring them and I'll put weights in mine to match your suburban, I've been dealing with not only these pumps, but these engines and these trucks for a decade, more if you count the 6.2s. Intercoolers are nice for dropping intake temps, but if just bypass the PCV so you dont suck that crap in the intake in the first place you wouldnt have a temp problem and you wouldn't need so much boost. If my truck ain't at the 240Hp mark, its darn close.


And by the way, they sell those breathers and just about any Autozone or Advance Auto parts, Edelbrock ones look real nice and fit perfect, make sure you get ones that fit a 1¼" hole and atleast one of them with a grommet to plug in where the oil filler cap goes, the other where the PCV valve is and whatever you can find to plug the PCV inlet on the intake tube. I guaruntee you will see gains in 5 minutes of driving.


I'll post pics ASAP. Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

Any time. Be sure to have a 6% grade and 12,000 lb. trailer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Nobody questions the length of time that you've worked on these engines. It's just clear that you don't tow heavy. It's also clear, from your comment on the PCV (really, it's called a CDR) that you don't understand where the heat in the intake really comes from. It's that physics thing again.


240 hp? I doubt it.


Again, I'd rather not be so belligerant, but I can't let this stuff go by unchallenged. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just trying to keep rationality involved in the discussion.


I would enjoy meeting you some day. If you're ever in central Indiana, look me up! Please, have a good evening.Edited by: ronniejoe

Ronnie, if you want to see what that suburban of yours is really capable of, then go to Autozone, get 2 breathers, and turn your boost down from 17 to about 7. Do you know what you create when you run that much boost in one of these engines? You double the amount of blow-by created, then you dump double the volume into the intake, then you have to make more boost because all that dirty air won't burn the fuel you've got goin to her, and then you have to run an intercooler to keep you IATs down, its a self defeating system.

TDG,


I'm curious to crap in the intake comment, how does oil vapor via CDR into turbo (I think that is what you mean, no PCV I'm aware of on the 6.5) detract from performance & increase IAT.


I'm not wanting to run a debate with you, but am interested in serious discussion of the mechanics of why you have come to the conclusion it is so successful; do you think it is result of reduced crankcase back pressure or another function giving the power gain, I'll grant you elimination of EGR & Cat is a plus


I'm jtrying to get a better understanding with how CDR circuit elimination improves things, also if I read description in GM's manual of CDR being essential to regulate proper venting of oil vapor within the crank case; what impact if any, have you seen on oil consumption, I have read elsewhere that an improper working CDR causes excess rear main seal leakage in some models, have you seen any evidence of that.


Again not wanting to debate if it's working for you great just trying to get a better understanding of why it's so successful.

Chevydave -


To specifically answer your question go to Kennedy Diesel website for a Spearco charge air cooler system designed for these trucks - it works.


And, go to Heath Diesel website for a water mist injection system designed for these trucks by Bill Heath - it also works, conserving water by injection as load demands.


Idea of each is to increase amount of oxygen per unit volume by cooling the compressed air out of the turbo back to ambient, from a high of ~300deg.


More oxygen, more fuel, more power, right?


Water mist can add even more cool oxygen by rapid evaporation, so maybe a cooler and mister would be the way to go, particularly in the desert, or way up high, as in New Mexico, Colorado, etc.


Here on the Gulf Coast, we got too much water anyway- we get buckets of water anytime we cool this air.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

Well, the numbers I've posted, and the performance I've demonstrated show that what I've done works. Facts is facts.


The turbocharger increases intake temperature when it does it's job. Again, that's physics. Higher boost pressure overcomes restrictions in the inlet tract to improve overall efficiency. It also packs more air mass in the combustion chamber to allow a hotter, cleaner burn. More air mass also allows more fuel to be introduced...more power can be created. Higher boost pressure can cause more blow by, but it doesn't necessarily have to if the rings are in good shape. I've noticed no increase in oil consumption or blow by. My exhaust temperatures are now lower than they have ever been and get lower with increased boost pressure. That's largely due to better evacuation of the spent gasses during the exhaust stroke from the improved pressure differential across the engine.


I write this, not to argue, but to post the real reasons this stuff works so that others can understand and draw their own conclusions. It's kind of hard to argue with hard data.

Ronnie my truck would be better to put up to your burb.
10.5 in. 4.10 ring gear 4wd if I need it. but hell, if I'm racing up a hill I'd want a 2wd 4l80E, built, and a gear splitter to turn 4 into 8.
I'd probably want my supercooler and twin turbos too.

TDG, I have to agree that air density is better than air volume and intercooling makes it happen.
I bought a second breather today but I have to deal with my stalling/limp mode problem before I can say what I think.
Edited by: quantum mechanic

I think we were all responding at the same time I'll wait for TDG to digest some of what is being asked before replying again. I'm really interested in the mix dilution from oil theory. at 7 psi my truck won't pull my 12K tractor & trailer load, IC and more boost was required to make that happen.

OK, it seems I have several items to adress here....


first, boost, yes, pressure over comes restriction on the intake side of the engine and crams more air in the cylinder so you can burn more fuel faster, I agree completely. But, when you jump to 17psi your asking the turbo to do more than it was designed to do (I didnt say capable, it will do it for a while) you also put more vacuum on the crankcase and every bit of air you suck out of there is already combusted so it doesnt aid in power putting it back in the engine, its already hot and you make it even hotter by raising boost which is why you need an intercooler for this system, and raising boost increases backpressure which also increases engine temps and slows the flow of air out of the engine. Again, this system is self defeating.


All I'm saying is you plug the CDR inlet, and simply vent crankcase pressure into the atmosphere, then all the air going into the engine is now cooler, and more oxygenated so you don't need to increase boost, you get lower IATs, you get more oxygen in the cylinder with less volume of air, which decreases power lost to compress the higher volume, which is very considerable in such a high compression engine, and the air can get out of the cyls faster because you don't have the wastegate closed so much building more backpressure. The breathers will not cause any pressure in the crankcase so leaking rear shaft seals and smoking out of the dipstick is not a problem.


If we were talking about a 6BT engine, this would be a totally different conversation, and I would say yeah, cram all the air you can get at her, but its not 6.5s are a very different animal than the other diesels on the market.


My truck will spike to 13psi and level off around 6-8, fuel delivery has been upped considerably but black smoke is actually less at take-offs now than it was stock and there's no smoke after the first second of acceleration. And I'm telling you, it makes guys with mustangs and even Duramax's take a double take when they see the 6.5 sticker I put on the tailgate.


I'm here to help everyone, Ronnie, if you try what I suggested and put that burb back on the dyno, I'll eat...I dont know think of something...if you don't make considerable gains.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/Z31_shiny_009.jpg

Air goes into the compressor inlet at ~15psi, barometric pressure.


Crank vapors go into the compressor inlet at 6"wc max. And some of it is oil vapor, of which a Diesel burns to make power. ??


~27"wc = 1psi


~405"wc = 15psi


What is the ratio of 6"wc crank\oil vapor to 405"wc air?


What is the ratio of 6"wc vapor to 15psi Baro + 15psi Boost?


Functioning CDR limits crankcase vacuum to 6"wc, no matter what the Boost level.


That's why it is called a Crankcase Depression REGULATOR, and not Positive Crankcase VENTILATION.


Would insignificant be understated?

I agree on 17 boost too much from what I see on my gauge that I have mounted on where my EGR is supposed to sit, at 17 psi (actually anything above 13 psi) is counterproductive, as back pressure in exhaust/turbo is up to 40 psi and basically trying to slow the turbo at both compressor and turbine end plus jacking up temps somewhat, I will say that with reflash and IC EGT overall is lower than with stock program. (Doing some tranny TS this week and I saw that; I will have to run some tests & record the data stock vs reflash program)


I cruise while towing at about 7 psi, hill climb at 12-13, run empty cruise at about 5 @ 75 mph. Now intercooled 7 psi vs non IC 7 psi, more air is stuffed in the chamber with IC as it's more dense, so you can add more fuel/more power, but go too far with any fuel or air and it's counterproductive, it has to be a balance. GM set this engine/turbo combo for best overall driveability with moderate power, to get real gains they had to got to the direct injection 6.6 IC.


GM whatever turbos don't do much good above 13PSI sustained IMO from what I've seen on my truck, now go to a bigger less restrictive turbo on back end different story, but then you gotta add more fuel via bigger injectors or dial in more from or bigger IP or it's wasted effort.


For ultimate you need to lower compression to around 18:1 which allows you to go to 20+ psi boost, more HP; but then you can start impinging on ability to cold weather start, solved by extended glow cycle plugs, or moving to MS/TX/FL where cold days are few


TDG do you think dialing in the IP was most of your net gain and breathers were a side benefit or both are necessary for the gain, have you ever tested IAT with & without normal CDR venting just for comparison

TD, It was a combined effort I would honestly have to say, I didnt want to override the stock wastegate setup, but I upped the fuel from the pump so I needed what boost the computer would allow to do more for me, and this add-on and exhaust upgrade compensated for the extra fuel quite nicely.


GMCTD, It doesn't matter what amount of vacuum the CDR is limited to, its not drawing from an atmospheric pressure area, its drawing from a pressurized crankcase. The engine will make more blow-by at higher boost and pressurize the crankcase and blow it into the inlet.


steiner, The breathers are just tiny filters that dump the pressure and clean the air as it flows out, no air goes in.


I apologize to anyone if I seem bullheaded about all this, I'm only on this site to share what I've learned, and I can guarantee you this simple mod, does make a difference.Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

i am very interested in your idea TDG, but the question i have is all of that air that is going into the crankcase good for the oil? i guess there isnt that much more air since the turbo isnt feeding air into the cdr because you have plugged it, but how good do those breather filters really filter?Edited by: steiner43511

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/Comparison.jpg


Just look at the graph. It's really pretty simple.


Would I make more power at 17 psi with a bigger turbo? Yes. Does the engine like 17 psi with the current turbo? Yes. Numbers don't lie.


Traveling out to Montana and back, I cruised (in North Dakota, South Dakota, parts of Wyoming and parts of Montana at 75 mph towing my 32' trailer that weighs close to 9000 lb. loaded. EGT on flat ground held steady around 900-1000 F with boost pressure around 13 psi steady. Prior to the modifications, I could barely maintain 60 mph in the same areas and ran EGT of 1350 F plus at about 6 psi boost. Hmmm... Must be my imagination. Oh, darn! I just woke up and realized that I've been dreaming.


Notice the bulge at 2550 rpm between the stock programming (this was with intercooler, high pop injectors, K&N filter and Banks exhaust, so it's not stock mechanically) and top curve? 93 lb-ft and 45 hp gain at that point. That's a 28% increase from 335 lb-ft to 428 lb-ft and 163 hp to 208 hp.


Looking at max torque at 2190 RPM, it went from 373 lb-ft to 428 lb-ft... a 15% increase.


Looking at max power at 3285 RPM, it went from 188 hp to 223 hp... a 19% increase.


Notice how the green line (chip + boost control without timing change) diverges from the purple line (chip only) at 2920 RPM? That is the difference in boost, pure and simple. That is noticeable when towing.


You know, the data is squarely behind my comments. Take it or leave it.


Notice in the following plot how favorably my 6.5 Suburban compares to a stock 2004 LB7 Duramax.


http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/Schoolcraft_vs_stock_Dmax.jpg


This isn't even the best run, because the timing change is not included in this plot. Larger images of these plots are available at my website www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com (http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com) if you're interested.


What more can I say?


Chevy Dave,


I apologize for how this thread has diverged from your original question. I hope that the data that I've posted here will help you to make a good decision. I've put on close to 10,000 miles towing this year so far (3900 last weekend alone) and over 20,000 last year. My Suburban has over 213,000 miles on it now. It is now running better than ever and tows very well. You should consider the towing experience of all who respond if you intend to tow with your truck. Running around empty is one thing, towing a heavy trailer is another... towing a heavy trailer west of the Mississipi is still another. There is an old saying that everyone should keep in mind... "There is no free lunch." It takes some effort and investment to make the 6.5 tow at an acceptable level. There is simply no way around it.


Good luck.


P.S. There is another forum site that has a large community of members with a wealth of knowledge. I encourage you to check it out. It's not hard to find with a search on 6.5 diesels.Edited by: ronniejoe

Ronnie,


Not debatating your graph/dyno results, do you tow at 17 this is what I'm talking about from my own dyno experience it's hit it hard, hit it fast lock up TCC to keep boost up, there 17 boost is a plus as it's short duration, but from my towing experience 12600# GN trailer & tractor that much boost on a tow is counter productive, maybe I'm doing something wrong but I'm not seeing much gain above 12-13 psi, except higher EGT, that is both with a TM and Kennedy control dialed all the way in to keep WG shut.


I'll call you tomorrow to compare notes. I'll be putting it to the test again this weekend I need to move my backhoe about 200 mi which with GN trailer should be around 18K total load I'm guessing I never pulled it before.

The dyno test never saw 17 psi... about 15 psi max in third. Towing I see up to 18 psi.

TDG


As you had addressed vacuum drawing hot vapors out of the crankcase, I intended to show the very small level available.


As the 6" max is at 2000rpm and above, it would indicate that GM felt blowby could be insignificant at those rpms - in a functional engine.


Meaning, one without excessive wear.


As you had already indicated that venting the crankcase caused some reaction from she who must be obeyed, it could indicate that excess blowby is causing some problems in your truck.


Or, simply, excess vapors from motor oil not formulated for Diesel service.


In any case, if crankcase vapors thru that small inlet tube are of sufficient volume to choke off the fresh air from the air intake filter, to the point where the truck runs better without the CDR, it would seem rather unsafe to vent that out over the hot turbo and exhaust manifold.

"There is an old saying that everyone should keep in mind... "There is no free lunch." It takes some effort and investment to make the 6.5 tow at an acceptable level. There is simply no way around it."


Ok ronniejoe How much would this cost the normal joe to do all ths mods you have done to your truck. I have seen many people on a few different forums make lots of power but most have spent tons of money inside the engine ie 18.1 pistons etc....


any idea how much you got in mods for your pulling machine?


just wondering

Bow,


Ronnie & I have about same setup I might have a bit more in it as I upgraded trans, wheels, brakes, & suspension; I'm estimating I have $5K in mods to lessen the pain I did it incrimentally, so yes these mods can net great gains but as we all know power costs $$$ either in a bigger truck(DMAX) or adding more to what you have. Will I ever get back what I have in itno only comfort is knowing I'm better than where I started.


But for me it's as much hobby/fun as anything else plus with all I'm spending on the truck it keeps me out of bars. So a "healthy addiction" is what my quest for power has become.

i guess there isnt that much more air since the turbo isnt feeding air into the cdr because you have plugged it, but how good do those breather filters really filter?


Steiner for clarification, the turbo scavenges vent from CDR it does not pressurize it.

The internals of my engine are still stock. Stock compression, no balancing, etc.


Eventually, I want to build an 18:1 engine, as that will allow still higher boost pressure, lower peak flame temperature, reduce likelihood of blowby and allow more fuel to be injected.


I have spent between $3,000 and $4,000 on upgrades to get to where I am now including cooling system upgrades.
<UL>
<LI>about $500 for exhaust</LI>
<LI>about $350 for chip</LI>
<LI>about $1300 for intercooler</LI>
<LI>about $650 for cooling system upgrades</LI>
<LI>about $400 for gages</LI>
<LI>about $600 for injectors (originals had 160,000 miles)</LI>
<LI>about $70 for air filter</LI>[/list]


I bought the truck in 2000 for $22,500 so my total, not including maintenance, comes out to about $26,000... a lot less than a new Dmax or brand X.

well cool


Sounds like you have done what I was looking at doing expect the IC.


The only place I have seen those mounted was down low and I'm not sure that it would live long down there. Damage from any number of things while off road.


I bought my 95 4X4 w/5 speed K2500HD for $7000.00 last year with 70,000 miles on it. Rebuilt trans and transfer case with new clutch still less than $10,000 in it. It run good and pulls 7000 lbs 80 mph no problem.


thanks again

The intercooler is a lot tougher than you might think and is a lot less vulnerable than you might think. I've had mine on for a year and do go off-road for hauling firewood with a utility trailer. I've had no problems.

The internals of my engine are still stock. Stock compression, no balancing, etc.


Eventually, I want to build an 18:1 engine, as that will allow still higher boost pressure, lower peak flame temperature, reduce likelihood of blowby and allow more fuel to be injected.


I have spent between $3,000 and $4,000 on upgrades to get to where I am now including cooling system upgrades.
<UL>
<LI>about $500 for exhaust
<LI>about $350 for chip
<LI>about $1300 for intercooler
<LI>about $650 for cooling system upgrades
<LI>about $400 for gages
<LI>about $600 for injectors (originals had 160,000 miles)
<LI>about $70 for air filter</LI>[/list]


I bought the truck in 2000 for $22,500 so my total, not including maintenance, comes out to about $26,000... a lot less than a new Dmax or brand X.








HOLEY MOLEY! $26g's in a 1995???!?!?!?! My burb's a 95, and I picked it up last fall for $7800!

Woa, BatMan!


I bought my Suburban in 2000 when it was less than five years old with only 58,000 miles on the odometer. That's where $22,500 of the $26,000 came from. At that time, Suburbans were sky high and I really got a pretty good deal. Since then, all of the dealer incentives for new cars have driven the price down for used vehicles. It's a different market now.

Anyone know of any junkyard turbo swaps?

Something from a ford powerstroke 7.3L perhaps.. or a dodge cummins?

their stock turbos would probably make decent "upgrades"

What style flange does the GM-4 use?

BT,


How much real offroad do you do, are you jacked up or big tires, that will get you some clearance, also if you serious off road you could make an armor plate for it, even though it's pretty robust. One of the drawbacks of IC is for it to work it needs 10 mph of air flow across it to work, you won't get that much at off road crawling, mudding speeds. All in all I'm happy with my IC install, I don't real off road much if I do it's with my Bronco II beater, I do use my 4x4 on unimproved AL &amp; MS roads pulling to my camp but my IC isn't in much danger there.


For serious off road WMI might be the better option

Woa, BatMan!


I bought my Suburban in 2000 when it was less than five years old with only 58,000 miles on the odometer. That's where $22,500 of the $26,000 came from. At that time, Suburbans were sky high and I really got a pretty good deal. Since then, all of the dealer incentives for new cars have driven the price down for used vehicles. It's a different market now.





Wow! That's some swing in the market! Almost a $20,000 swing. But like you said, that was four years ago and you bought with 100,000 less miles on yours than were on mine.

I don't "off Road " as much as I have in the past. Not many places to go out here in OK. ( FLAT for miles). but I drive around off of roads alot out here working around my land. so not sure just hate to destroy one shortly after hooking it up.


where did ya get your IC's at ??


what's the cost?

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/

Regardless of what some will say, one system is not better than the other. Analyze the need and customize the solution.


Not than I'm a Tree Hugger, but all of the IC vs. WMI arguments haven't touched on the following benefit of WMI:


http://www.rvti.com/technologies.htm


Hope that link doesn't demonstrate any bias on my part. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Regardless of what some will say, one system is better than the other.

RJ,


Can you tell me how the performance of your Sub, with the WMI system, compared to the performance of your Sub now, with the IC?

I would think - on a trip thru Minnesota, or Montana, with ambient at 60deg, an air-over charge-air cooler would be very efficient at removing heat of compression, reducing charge-air temp to as low as 60deg.


On the other hand, a on trip thru Arizona or Nevada desert, with extremely high ambient ~140deg, a water-mist system would be very effective at reducing heat of compression to way below ambient.


With an insulated container of ice-water supplying the mist, this system would totally outperform an air-over charge-air cooler.


Even better would be a combo setup - would not need as much water , since requirements are now only 140 deg out of the cooler (remember, we're still in the desert), rather than potentially 300deg out of the compressor.


There are places in America where, heat of afternoon, heavy traffic, temps above road surface exceed 140deg daily. No where near any desert.


Who's to say which is best?


Certainly, the person who chose the system(s) to meet the requirement(s).


My truck, you ask? Folks, I got Chausson - it's cooled!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif

RJ


Your statement would be correct if you would have added "In my particular application".


I'm beginning to believe that chemical intercooling might be better after all the reading I've been doing. For my particular application of course.


Don't get me wrong, the IC has been the best modification I have done to date. Now with a little WATER....


A small nozzle(2-3gpm) with the IC has got to be the best combo.

Exactly my point.


Depending upon where you will be towing, how much you will be towing, how far away from home you travel, etc., etc., etc. There are a number of variables to be considered. All of which need to be evaluated by the individual. Personally, I'd like to have both.


But guess what. I'm a somewhat intelligent human being, perfectly capable of making an informed decision based upon what's best for my particular circumstances. And that's absolutely the best system. Isn't that what it's all about?

Okay.


I look at things from an engineering perspective, because I am one. If Ford, Dodge or GM came out with a turbo diesel pickup with factory water injection or water-alcohol injection, I bet you folks would be complaining about what a mickey mouse set-up it is and that you have to mess with filling up water tanks. I want to engineer a system that is feasible from an original equipment perspective.


Plus, I've yet to see a WMI system that actually meters the water flow based on engine requirements. When we used this on a 10,000 hp turboshaft engine to achieve 13,000 hp for takeoff in a demonstrator test program, the water-alcohol flow was carefully metered so that the added power of expanding steam could be utilized. That amout varies with engine speed, load, operating temperature and operating pressure. No system on the market today for these trucks even considers those variables.


Billman, you're right. It makes zero sense for me because I tow long distances for upwards of 25,000 miles a year. I already operate at or above gross weight and don't want the added weight of water for a WMI system. It would take a lot of water to meet the needs as I am configured and as I use my truck.


If you all want to piddle around with WMI... go for it! It won't hurt my feelings any. If someone asks my opinion, I'll give it. And it won't be to use WMI. I get concerned about "herd mentality" on these forums and hate to see people head down a path that is not in their best interest.


That goes for using TurboMasters on electronic trucks, converting electronic to mechanical fuel injection, using a Posi-lock cable to replace the front axel actuator, etc. I don't like those things, but they really get praised on sites like this. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Ronniejoe


"That goes for using TurboMasters on electronic trucks, converting electronic to mechanical fuel injection, using a Posi-lock cable to replace the front axel actuator, etc. I don't like those things, but they really get praised on sites like this. Doesn't make any sense to me."


WOW RJ just when I was agreeing with you about using the IC over the WMI you slap me back down. I for one can't understand wjy GM put a complete Vac system from pump on out on my 2500HD just to operate the Wastegate when I know other better ways are out there. Therefore I believe if a spring loaded TurboMaster works and works as well as it seems to, that won't be better.


I have also been stuck at -60 before and not been able to get my front axle to work so I really like the posi lock cable engagement over the current design, just like I perfer manual hubs over automatic hubs on working 4x4's.



I'm still undecided about which is better EFI or MFI for this trucks.





lolhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Thumbs Up.gifEdited by: bowtie

In the choice between water mist and charge air, i choose:
first: Supercooling
I'm sure somebody thought of it first but it's all mine.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/uploads/28B_76A_acintercooler1.jpg
Second: water to air intercooling. coeffiency of water is 4x that of air.

Thrid: charge air, but only if you got it used.

Forth: water mist

I didn't feel free to limit myself to a choice of two.

Ultimately, it's your choice.


That's the beauty of America. It's a free country.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


Now, so that you will know for sure that I'm irrational...


The Amish decided to stop advancing at a particular level of technology. They use technology, it is just at the level of development of the early 1800's. With the Posi-Lock cable, it's the same thing. You are choosing to stop advancing in technology. Now, there is no doubt that the early thermal actuators were not reliable and were sluggish in operation. I updated mine to the latest technology using the new stepper motor. It works great, automatically, and I use it multiple times each week. It hasn't let me down yet in over five years and over 160,000 miles since I put it on.


The Turbo Master is nothing more than a back pressure regulator. The vacuum system gives me more flexibility and more control over the operation of the waste gate with the proper modifications. Others have shown that the vacuum system can hold the waste gate closed through a back pressure spike that would open the spring loaded waste gate system. The result is quicker spool-up from the vacuum system getting you on boost sooner. Should the system be run off of boost pressure like the LB7 DMax? Probably would be bettter, but IMO, the vacuum system on the electronic trucks is better than the spring loaded system. If you're open to thinking about it, consider what I've said. If you still prefer the spring... cool.


The old automatic lock-out hubs that you mentioned were a mistake. That really wasn't an advancement in technology, but an ill-fated attempt to meet a perceived need without really doing the job right. Manual lock-out hubs clearly work better.


Sometimes I agree with the herd... other times I don't. When I don't, I say so... and give reasons why. You can evaluate the reasons and decide for yourself.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

RJ,
What does that 4wd stepper cost? GM part?
still got my vac pump closing the wg.

Well from my 25 years of aircraft work I have seen lots of advancing the level of technology come along. But even the most advance systems are backed-up with ol fashion technology (springs) or they crash the jet if they don't have back-up built in. I don't have enough money or room to perform these things. So I am stuck between liking the newer stuff and believing in the older way. I perfer the newer EFI systems over carbs for gas motors and believe the new electric transmissions offer advances over the older ones. But I have seen and had problems with both of these that we started this discussion on. I am and will continue to watch and see if the vac WG system continues to work as disigned but it will be hard when the pump goes out $$$$. My MB used vac everywhere in the car from Locks to the engine shutoff control, and I learn what a PITA that could be before I sold the car.

bowtie,


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif I hear you! Sometimes the best laid plans can go awry.


What type of aircraft work did you do? I spent 15 years designing gas turbine engines and gearboxes for them at Allison in Indianapolis. Spent 7 years on the Model 250 helicopter engine.


Please don't take me the wrong way. I am very opinionated. My wife tells me that all the time!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


quantum,


I don't remember the price, as I did it over five years ago. But it is a GM part and I got it through the dealer. I asked for the "updated actuator." I got it and a revised wiring harness to install it on the truck.

Hey RJ


I work on the KC-135 which was built by Boeing. It is a refueler for other aircraft. And I also have been told that I'm opinionated also and I tell them thats it's just my opinion, BUT I'M RIGHT ! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


any way thanks for the good input and keep it coming

RJ,


I'd still appreciate an answer to my earlier question.

The stepper motor and the harness was less than a replacement thermal actuator when I got mine. I think it was about $90.


I agree that the vacuum wastegate control works better. (I changed my mind after I switched)


I definately have a lot more turbo lag than I did with the vacuum actuator and the boost stays about the same under load. (it varies from 10 to 16 psi depending on how hard I am pushing it and the rpm)


Someone that is only running stock boost probably wouldn't see much difference in turbo lag.


The actual operation of them are so close, my opinion is that the little bit of turbo lag can't justify spending almost $300 to replace the pump and wastegate solenoid and possibly have it fail again in a few months. The turbomaster is about $65 and isn't likely to fail.

I never ran a WMI system on my Suburban. My experience with WMI was on a 10,000 hp turboshaft engine that needed to make 13,000 hp for takeoff in a demonstrator aircraft. Water-alcohol augmentation, as it is officially called, allowed us to do that without a major redesign for the demonstrator program. The product version (which never made it to production) was being redesigned to eliminate the WMI because it was not considered suitable for production. It was a band-aid, and that's the way I still look at it.


I've made my opinions known on the "Page" and most folks there know that I've always said that the physics of this concept work. I'm just not pleased by the embodiments that I've seen... they don't meter the flow properly. And I've never liked what I consider to be gimmicks or band aids when a better way exists.


It will make power. It will cool the intake down somewhat. However, temperature measurements on two-phase flow can be misleading. Also, the water is taking up space that could be filled with air to combust more fuel, especially if the water is metered improperly and too much is being introduced.


It's not a panacea.


I like intercooling because that is a very straight forward approach that is used all over on turbo diesel engines. It works all the time without me having to remember to fill a water tank or flip a switch or whatever. I've also never liked the idea of being in a hard pull and, oops, ran out of water...now my charge cooling is gone, I'm back to running low on power and everything heats up. Can't run out of charge cooling with an air-air intercooler.


My opinion.


My first vacuum pump failed at 145,000 miles. I now have over 68,000 miles on the replacement. The first waste gate solenoid failed at 158,000 miles. I now have over 56,000 miles on the replacement. Not too bad of a failure rate. I've put three starters on this thing. I think I'll install a rope-pull starter!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gifEdited by: ronniejoe

nope no need to get the rope out just yet just have those starters rebuilt my someone who know what he is doing. And don't forget the to check the batteries in good shape too. beside my last starter was cheaper than most vac pumps were. haven't bought one lately but the starter was under 100.00 last rebuild. (beside I have extras).


I am running a stock setup and would like boost to stay with me longer and maybe up to 12psi. I topping out at bout 9.5 but all gone before 3000 rpm. The springs seems to give some adjustment there that vac do't offer

The Kennedy boost control will help that. It's a $90.00 plug-in component. Put one on the Baro sensor and it'll make a difference.

WHere does this boost controller go. Is it adjustable?

Yup, it's adjustable. He sells two different ones. One is calibrated for the boost sensor on top of the intake manifold. The other is calibrated for the BARO sensor on the firewall. They just plug in-line between the wiring harness and the sensor. There is a small screw on one side to adjust for more or less resistance.


The one for the boost sensor modifies the feedback to the computer so that it reads a lower boost signal than is actually there, so it commands more boost. The one for the BARO sensor modifies the signal so the computer thinks the truck is operating at higher eleveation. Since the computer is looking for absolute pressure, it commands a higher gage pressure to compensate.

I like the JK controller, but it too is a fail item, mine just quit yesterday when I was fixin to haul 18K trailer, fortunately I had my TM with me and I was able to hook it up for the tow, all went well until I blew off a IC connection, talk about dropping dead fast I never knew how much help the turbo was until I didn't have it . Will post more later the boss(wife) says I got some chores to do that don't include pecking away at this keyboard.

part of the problem IMHO is a design flaw in the turbo itself. The arm that operates the wastegate should be about twice as long, allowing more firm and more graduated control of its movement. a longer arm on a stock setup would limit the amount of travel the wastegate could open and keep boost from plummeting on drop in vacuum.

I never ran a WMI system on my Suburban. My experience with WMI was on a 10,000 hp turboshaft engine that needed to make 13,000 hp for takeoff in a demonstrator aircraft.





I don't believe, from a practical point of view, you can draw an absolutely equal comparison between a jet aircraft engine and a 6.5TD.





The product version (which never made it to production) was being redesigned to eliminate the WMI because it was not considered suitable for production. It was a band-aid, and that's the way I still look at it.





In fact, the use of WMI is being used in certain commercial applications; particularly to reduce Nitrogen Oxide emissions (NOx) and soot formation rates. Additional study is ongoing related to its broader commercial application. History can demonstrate many examples of technologies that were tabled, only to be redeveloped later, and ultimately met with commercial success. It's called evolution. And that's one of the reasons I get such enjoyment out of these forums. Guys are constantly experimenting with their rigs. Who's to say that one of us won't see our own patent for an idea that was floated here, first?





I've made my opinions known on the "Page" and most folks there know that I've always said that the physics of this concept work. I'm just not pleased by the embodiments that I've seen... they don't meter the flow properly. And I've never liked what I consider to be gimmicks or band aids when a better way exists.





If you agree that the physics of WMI work, why do you continue to criticize the technology, even though there are folks who have found that it works for them?


Granted, there are WMI systems available on the market with varying degrees of sophistication. From what I understand, the multi stage systems do a fairly good job of regulating flow according to both boost and EGT.


RJ...I do respect your personal opinion on the subject. However, I get a little concerned when someone who doesn't agree with another's personal opinion resorts to arrogance and condescension to help make a point. "Herd" mentality...give me a break.





It will make power. It will cool the intake down somewhat.





You might want to see a truck with WMI on a dyno before you make statements such as this one. I've seen gains greater than 50HP. Under load, that same truck measured a decrease in EGT of over 200*.





However, temperature measurements on two-phase flow can be misleading. Also, the water is taking up space that could be filled with air to combust more fuel, especially if the water is metered improperly and too much is being introduced.





I don't dissagree with you here, but the points you raise are disadvantages of WMI and all of the disadvantages of WMI should be compared equally to the disadvantages of air-to-air charge cooling. You have heard it said many times, people use their trucks in different ways. The cost benefit analysis that you performed, using your variables, yielded one answer. It's quite likely that someone else using a different set of variables, will arrive at a different answer.





It's not a panacea.





In all of the reading that I've done on the subject of WMI, including many of the diesel forums, commercial sites selling WMI systems, academic papers, and company literature, not a single individual or piece of collateral has ever said that WMI is a panacea. Not a one. If WMI is the panacea, I'm sure that we would see evidence of that by the number of people who are using the system. I

Like it or not, look at how much discussion and information has come out as a result of my comments. Some don't like my style, but I use sarcasm quite often to make a point (the rope starter comes to mind). Sometimes the best way to start people thinking is to toss a verbal grenade in the room.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Finally...something that we can both agree on. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Yeap Thats what I try to do at times too

TDG - You might be surprised at the minimal wastegate travel necessary to dump turbine rpm.


The WG Solenoid is pulsed at 63% from idle up to ~7psi Boost, where the value can drop to 20% to maintain that level under heavy load, with factory programmng.


I would venture a figure of less than 0.125" off-seat to fully dump Boost.


In spring-assist configurations, when Exhaust Gas Pressure is greater than spring pressure, the noise of wastegate chattering can sound like a lawnmower engine, but the gate never fully opens.


Yet, it dumps Boost.


The WG port in the turbine housing is 1.250" dia - figure any EGP in psi against the effective area of that diameter to get the opening force.


The WG Vac Actuator is ~2"dia - figure 15"Vac on control side to 15psi Baro on the closing side of the diaphragm to get the holding force.


Vacuum, or pressure less than Baro, is measured in inches Mercury -


2" Mercury = 1psi


30" Mercury = 15psi (Baro)


30" Vacuum = 0psi (Baro)

TDG - You might be surprised at the minimal wastegate travel necessary to dump turbine rpm.


Hmmm... obviously I did know it doesn't take much to dump boost, but it takes a lot more than an 1/8th of an inch to lose all boost pressure. which is why I suggested a longer arm would shorten the reach of the actuator, limiting how far the wastegate can be allowed to open, and make the stroke more graduated and prevent chattering. You know, we really don't disagree on much, but you always make it sound like we're all complete morons in your replys. Edited by: Texas Diesel Guy

No offense intended - if you'll do the math on pressure vs area, my intent will be clearer. Increased resolution is not needed.


Lock open the wastegate to 1/8", see how much Boost can be developed. Minimal travel is necessary to dump Boost.


Been there, done that 30 and some odd years ago. And ~4 years ago. And Winter ought three\ought four........


My posts, while possibly dry and didactic, hopefully include info for those with no special training.


Most guys here are owner\drivers, wanting to get their truck(s) running again, and maybe wondering at the whys and wherefores.


And, most people have forgotten what they learned in science and physics classes. I enjoy pointing out how to use the concepts in relation to these engine systems.


Can't do the math, but the concept is clear.


I also try to leave personalities out, as so many are so volatile, nowadays.


At 63yrs, my opinions have been mostly tempered with experience, and I am willing to share the knowledge and experience.


I've been in, on, under, over, in front of and back of an infernal combustion recip engine since ~6yrs of age (my dad fell me out of the house, and said "hand me that wrench, boy"), and I still cannot get enough of the 'aura' of the things.


And, yes, I did say in(side) - two stories tall, pistons size of 55gal drums - full-size doors into the crankcase, sump was in the floor of the building. Three in each building, two buildings. Four running 24\7\365, around 200rpm, maybe less. Diesel Glory!


I post my experience. Feel free to take it or leave it - just don't take offense, as I've none to offer.

...No one is doubting that you know your stuff, if you recall I've even referred others to your insight. But if the wastegate is such a small window 0-1/8" then doesnt it make more sense for a longer arm to more precisely tune in the boost you want???

The flat wastegate\seat does not allow for incremental adjustment.


If 'gate were tapered, cone-shaped, that could be accomplished, but the flat gate opens full diameter, even at minimal movement.


PCM will correct as necessary to maintain intrinsic limits.


PCM does it with pulses, and 'gate movement is so minimal you do not hear chatter - it is always bypassing under PCM control.


I've never seen WG on-time more than 67%, usually between 50-60% at hiway speeds.


Coming up on the freeway on a cool morning, Boost may spike to 10psi or so, but will fall back to ~7-8psi on the long pull, tho rpm is still increasing.


You can fool the PCM by dividing the voltage input with a resistor, such that it thinks Boost is lower than called for, increasing wastegate on-time (more closed), allowing for higher Boost.


This does work, and your truck probably needs it, with the turned up inj pump.


Danger here, with no instruments, is IAT can climb to over 220deg at only 7-8psi with factory fuel rates. Higher Boosts, more rapid the climb, higher the achievable temps.


PCM will pull fuel at ~230deg IAT, but EGT can be very high at that point, maybe damagingly high.


The mechanical TurboMaster adjustment increases or decreases spring tension applied to the 'gate arm, compensating for increasing Exhaust Pressure against the 'gate.


FYI - I attempted to get that flat 'gate to dump all the excess Exhaust Pressure and volume above the quantity required to maintain hiway Boost levels, which would lower Exhaust Back Pressure in the turbine housing - it cannot be done with a WG in the turbine housing, or with a flat 'gate.

Hey Ron I scraped the vacuum system on my truck and haven't looked back. I like the idea of the rope starter it works for a simple minded guy like me!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif The only thing I don't think I have the HP to pull that 6.5 through the compression cycle! http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Cool.gif


I think if you have a truck in decent shape on the vacuum system the "boost fooler" is a great way to go. I also think when those phony little lines get broke and cracked and my dealer can't find a part number for it I think the Turbo Master is a good way too, I am happy with mine.


I got a bucket of Diesel here to throw on the fire............http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif


hmmm I think it's too darn hot lets get a couple of tall ice teas and sit in the shade and talk some more about this stuff!Edited by: 16gaSxS

Sounds like a plan!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Can't we all just (sniff!) get along?

Can't we all just (sniff!) get along?


I'd rather we all just get a LONG NECK!!!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gifEdited by: 16gaSxS

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

What we need are more ron des voos and getusalltogethers.


RJ...If you're willin' to truck on up to Big Sky Country, I gotta' believe you'd come out to the right coast, correct?

Sure, if the timing is right. I was just in Boston and out to Cape Cod two weeks ago with the family and rig . I've been through New Jersey several times as well.

I started this post because I wanted to know others experience with both and the pros and cons. Thanks everyone for the info.


If cost were not an issue would IC be best? I ask because I can get a used IC for about $100 then fab my own ducting. Has anyone tried water to air IC, is it worth the extra work to fab up or is an air ti air good enough?


Also in an air to air IC mounted down low on the 6.5 is it it beneficial to mount cooling fans rather than just leaving it open for ambient flow, which is sufficient at speed but bad during slow moving? What have others done?

Dave,


I'll take a crack at a partial answer. In comparing an a-to-a IC to an w-to-a IC, I think you would need to examine your specific application. (I've never said that before, have I?)


The advantages of a-to-a are: efficiency, cost and readily available cores. Disadvantages might be: longer induction path, packaging can be difficult, and the need for the installation of large pipes.


The advantages of a w-to-a IC are: short induction path, easy to package, and they're great for short power bursts, but towing? http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif Disadvantages are: heavier, more complex, and they're more expensive.

Pannhead over on the page has a huge liquid to air intercooler system. He loves it. He has posted pics and descriptions of it in the past and has helped others get set up.

Pannhead over on the page has a huge liquid to air intercooler system. He loves it. He has posted pics and descriptions of it in the past and has helped others get set up.





What "the page" you got a link or address or something ??

The Diesel Page... It's a membership based web magazine and forum. Great place. Great Knowledge.


http://www.thedieselpage.com/Edited by: ronniejoe