I will start by first off saying, I use Baldwin Filters (air, oil, etc..) in my truck as it has no mods excepts for wheels and tires. Also, I am not trying to discount the study that was completed, hence why I started a different thread - I did not want to hijack the other one.


I shared the info on the recent testing of the air filter with a friend who is at K&N. A few comments that he had on the test, direct from his emails.


First, no one does fine dust testing. That is for industrial usage such as HVAC equipment. For light truck / automotive usage coarse dust is used.


K&N's testing (in house as well as 2 outside, independent labs) is 100% the opposite. Let them know that the Proguard 7 is not reusable and that any filter with synthetics cannot be cleaned thoroughly. If there was a true problem, K&N would be inundated with motor claims and in fact, they are non-existent and K&N is experiencing growth year after year.


We do in house and outside testing of our filters and those numbers are not even close. FYI, AFE will be dropping their entire replacement filter line and probably the Pro Guard 7 as well. Seems the replacement filter line is not moving and the Pro Guard 7 cannot be cleaned; its an expensive throw away. If you are a member, please post that totally different numbers can be obtained from K&N and anyone is more than welcome to come by and see them in person. If those numbers were true, do you think we may have some problems with the 164,000 part# 33-2135 (the one they "tested") sold so far. What about the other 5.4 million annual units sold? If they actually performed that bad, K&N would not exist any more.


Please do not give out my e-mail or ph# as I do not want tons of inquiries (I do have to work while I am here) but tell the guy that posted the study results that he can contact me.

tell the guy at K & N that he can have my filter. Don't want it, don't need it. 'Nuff Said!

You can send it to me if you like, actually if anyone has a K&N filter and they no longer want it - I am happy to recycle them. Just send me a PM.

Probably even the worse case filter in the testing will not cause enough engine wear in the owners life of the engine... especially if oil changes are done as required, to make a difference.

We worry about the differences in filtering, which isn't a bad thing mind you, but then we install aftermarket power and xmission upgrades that reduce the life tenfold more than less than perfect air filter.

Maybe he would like to explain the dust that flowed past my K&N and coated my intake with fine dust in under 7K miles. Could it be that 164,000 part # 33-2135 were sold based on Sales Hype and mis information. Hey if you don't know you would ass u me that it's doing the advertised job right. If you ask me the dust thats in the intake is the proof thats in the pudding. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif

Was the K&N properly oiled, seated down, etc... Stock replacement or FIPK?

Probably even the worse case filter in the testing will not cause enough engine wear in the owners life of the engine... especially if oil changes are done as required, to make a difference.

We worry about the differences in filtering, which isn't a bad thing mind you, but then we install aftermarket power and xmission upgrades that reduce the life tenfold more than less than perfect air filter.


Only a fraction of the total intake air makes to the engine base. Of coarse after sand and dirt has the upper cyl walls and rings wore out then you could remove more dirt by changing the oil. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Oil analysis is just not a good measure of air filter performance.

Some dust gets through with any filter. 100% means no air either. Why else would there be an oil filter on the truck? Particles smaller than an oil molecule are surrounded by it and thereby protect the engine. The oil filter then removes these contaminates. Typical oil molecule is 5-8 microns. Typical oil filter removes particles 10 - 20 microns. Fine dust (general, must put under microscope to truly quantify) is under 5 microns and will do nothing more than darken the oil.

Was the K&N properly oiled, seated down, etc... Stock replacement or FIPK?


New in the box and pre-oiled

IMO the main reason (Bottom Line) this person at K & N is saying this, is because if info like this independent test gets out it will hurt their sales...period!


Thanks again Spicer!!http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif


You http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Rock On.gifSpicer

No, not at all. I just know that I have seen firsthand, results to the contrary. And I know what I saw. I have been doing the filter thing for longer than I care to remember and I do consider myself to be somewhat an informed expert.

K N would NEVER admit their filter sucks dirt, NEVER!!!

Welcome to the world of liers. Uni started this by lying to me.

I'll bet you I cost them more then the 35.00 dollars I wanted refunded.

Im going to send this test to the Uni Prez as a final word from my side of the coin.

Most people sell their vehicles before the engine is anywhere near worn, so it doesn't surprise me that K&N hasn't been inundated with aware customers. So what remains is the impression that K&N has a great product. That doesn't make their filter worth a hoot. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


I just looked up the definition of a hoot: "something of very little value." http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Once the cat's out of the bag, it's hard to get it back in again. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Geek.gif

Probably even the worse case filter in the testing will not cause enough engine wear in the owners life of the engine... especially if oil changes are done as required, to make a difference.

We worry about the differences in filtering, which isn't a bad thing mind you, but then we install aftermarket power and xmission upgrades that reduce the life tenfold more than less than perfect air filter.


Only a fraction of the total intake air makes to the engine base. Of coarse after sand and dirt has the upper cyl walls and rings wore out then you could remove more dirt by changing the oil. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Oil analysis is just not a good measure of air filter performance.

I would also think a large portion of airborn particles going into the cylinders goes out the exhaust or is incinerated. Makes it difficult to measure the effects.

Anyone wanting to get rid of one of those shinnie chrome 4" intake tubes, AFE Ithink. I will be intrested. Hope it will fit into a K-N F I P K gen 2 air box, or I will buy the whole kit if price is rite.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

JB


The easiest way for you correct the mis information as you call it would be to hire Testand of Road Island to repeat the same test over again. Since there business is building and testing these items you have questioned the quality of their work and therefore their company. Send them the funds to go buy a K&N filter where ever they choose and test it against a AC Delco filter that they purchase where ever they choose. If the results are different I'm sure they would post them and you've made your point, if the results are the same then you've got work to do to improve your Duramax filter.

You can send it to me if you like, actually if anyone has a K&N filter and they no longer want it - I am happy to recycle them. Just send me a PM.


I will be glad to take all of those new oem filters you guys took out to put the aftermarkets thingamajigs in http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


It's right up there on the shelf in your garage in the K&N/Amsoil box where you put it http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

Well, I now have an Amsoil and a Uni air filter cluttering up my garage shelves. And don't I feel like a dumbaxe. I should have known after the Amsoil, but no, The Uni was so nicely turned and and impressive LOOKING. I didn't notice its remarkable see-through properties until PC suggested we actually peer through them. So now I have a dreery, yet apparently quite efficient NAPA Gold paper filter straining out the air borne crud. Thanks to SPICER, though I may be a sucker for past gaffs, I'm sucking a lot less now.

TC

So has anyone here had an engine failure directly linked to faulty air filtering? Just curious.

Some of you guys are holding on to these results as if it was your highschool sweethearthttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif


This test should be less then 50% of the deciding factor when it comes to buying your next filter. After all, it isn't the Holy Bible!

I look at it much differently, as this confirmed what I and others have suspected and discussed both here and at other diesel truck sites for years. http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Thanks for this and that input. And when the time comes let us know what you think.


I have the K&N and no problems to report as of yet. But then again I am not quite as anal in this particular area.

1. I have a brand new, never used ProGuard 7 for sale if anyone wants it. make an offer, I'll ship it in its original plastic and box.


2. I wish our trucks had the air filter that comes on the 6.0


3. After hearing that guys are running the 1/4 in the 12s with stock intake, thats good enough for my useage, Im sticking with stock.

Tomac runs a KN cone on a home made intake tube.





Mac

Dieseltech,


MULTIPLE DITTOS!!!!

What trueth is there to why the AFE ProGuard 7 is not be able to be cleaned?Edited by: BassinRVer

I pulled my FIPK off of my truck cause I was thinking of down sizing, the unit had about 5,000 miles on it. I looked in the tube cause I was curious if there was any dirt in there due to prior threads saying the inside of the tube was covered in dust and dirt, the inside looked to be as clean as the day I put it on, just my observations and 2cents worth. I will be keeping my rig per Wife and be re-installing my FIPK kit.


Ron

When I see diesel manufacturers bustin their butts to make an extra 5-10 hp and fighting emissions it makes me wonder why they don't just drop in an oiled filter... I think we all now know why they don't. The day someone like cummins or cat gives the OK I'll reconsider.

We can have clean intake air, push 500 rwhp, and not need to clean and oil a foam filter. It would seem the aftermarket should be selling paper air filters and OE should be foam!

Was anyone in Iraq . This would be the ultimate test. What does the milatary use. They had oil bath when I was in but that was long long ago. Anybody.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

JETBOATER:
What is your real issue with this test? It can't be with the AC Delco finishing first. In the other thread you stated that paper is a better media for stopping dirt. The only thing I can figure is that you have a problem with the AFE getting better results than K&N.
I looked at the K&N, AFE and AMSOIL filters when I was trying to select a filter to provide the best protection for my DMAX. None of these companies provided a quantitative analysis of which provided the best filtration. I went with AMSOIL because I their hype was slanted more at stopping dirt.
Personally I am trying to protect my truck; performance is a secondary issue so I will dump my AMSOIL for the AC Delco. In my opinion, 2 inches of H2O difference in the flow restriction between the AC Delco and the K&N will not significantly affect my performance.
You have continually stated “I have seen firsthand, results to the contrary”. Show the results comparing filters tested under the same conditions.Edited by: rdenman3

Geno, at the line-level unit HMMWV (Hummers), LMTV/FMTVs (Stuart Stevenson) and the HEMMT (Oshgosh 8X8) all used standard HUGE pleated paper elements. As I mentioned on the other post our Chinooks were unfiltered with a few.

Moto


Thanks and this should mean something I would think.


Genohttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif

Geno, at the line-level unit HMMWV (Hummers), LMTV/FMTVs (Stuart Stevenson) and the HEMMT (Oshgosh 8X8) all used standard HUGE pleated paper elements. As I mentioned on the other post our Chinooks were unfiltered with a few.




Hey.... I spent some time working on Chinooks at Boeing in Philadelphia. Talk about a workhorse.

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<BLOCKQUOTE id=4a910b17> JETBOATER:
What is your real issue with this test? It can't be with the AC Delco finishing first. In the other thread you stated that paper is a better media for stopping dirt. The only thing I can figure is that you have a problem with the AFE getting better results than K&amp;N.
I looked at the K&amp;N, AFE and AMSOIL filters when I was trying to select a filter to provide the best protection for my DMAX. None of these companies provided a quantitative analysis of which provided the best filtration. I went with AMSOIL because I their hype was slanted more at stopping dirt.
Personally I am trying to protect my truck; performance is a secondary issue so I will dump my AMSOIL for the AC Delco. In my opinion, 2 inches of H2O difference in the flow restriction between the AC Delco and the K&amp;N will not significantly affect my performance.
You have continually stated “I have seen firsthand, results to the contrary”. Show the results comparing filters tested under the same conditions.





Well stated. SPICER</BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR>
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oK. Finally got 'em to load....Think we had an erosion problem? Performance degradation? This particular aircraft does have particle separators installed but it is one of only a dozen.


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Hoot, glad to meet a fellow Hooker!

You know that surprises me that few have particle seperators where they seem to be mandatory. What do they do with the others? Just change engines daily?


Actually I was a Boeing employee for ten years. Saw a few brand new ones being built ..... they still build them new, can you believe it... first flight was like 1960

Recently worked for a company that makes the swash plates and absorbers.Edited by: hoot

Hoot, since the aircraft were only subject to this kind of dust/sand during take-offs/landings (much like a dirt road for our trucks) exposure was actually minimal when compared to the total hours operated. During the 200-hour inspections (compare to 26,000 truck miles) several had unacceptable compressor errosion and required replacement - though still running and working loads.