Tonight I installed the Banks Race on my truck. I didn't have a chance to run it at the track yet but I did get to do somemore testing with WI Huck. First off we ran his truck against my truck. We both had the 125hp juice on. From a stop I could pull away from him. Next we put the banks Race on my truck and the Hot Juice on his truck. He pulled away like I was a brick. So we set his to the 125hp setting. He jumped out right away in 1st gear and then once I hit second we kept the same pace. It deffinately is a good box but I don't think it will cut better times at the track on my truck than the 125 juice. The Banks race is very "detuned" in 1st gear. Once it hits second it starts to pull, I would say every bit as hard as the 125 juice. But being that it doesn't make good power in first gear I don't think that it will pull hard enough for a good 60ft time(which makes all the difference)Doing a WOT run from a dead stop I got NO wheelspin from 265/75R16 tires. It needs a lot more fuel down low, little to no smoke from a WOT run. The truck does shift A LOT smoother and quicker with the Banks Race. It doesn't seem as "touchy" as the Edge, power comes on "later" in the pedal. I will try to get to the track soon to confirm my findings but the weather doesn't look the greatest.

Thanks for taking time to give us some feedback Carbon. I appreciate it !! Keep up the good work...http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clap.gif

good post........thanks

GREAT info!!!! Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Well said thank you!


Blake

Carbon04,


I take it you guys just stomped on the pedal from idle, no spool up. Interesting to see when Banks tests it against the Juice 125hp, they can beat it with the 6-gun. How much of a jump did he get on you? Did the 6-gun pull AT ALL on the Juice when you got rolling?

I recall Banks' Juice test also showed substantial ET loss most likely do to wheel spin at initial take off.

I wonder if the Banks testing had the Edge set on 0 low booost fueling? That appears to be the difference here. Edge gives you the option to up the smoke and up the power off idle. I will go back and see if the post specified the setting?

<H1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Edge Juice</H1>
¼ mile: 15.94 @ 90.7 mph (10.9% better time, 12.7% better speed)
0-10 mph: 1.47 sec (14.8% worse)
0-40 mph: 4.35 sec (23.7% better)
0-60 mph: 7.33 sec (28.0% better)
Runs were made on Level 5. We attempted to run the truck with the 4-5 shift fuel derate disabled, but during the run, the truck would throw a code and would go into limp mode, effectively slowing the run, so all runs were done with the derate enabled. The Edge produced the highest observed EGT on the truck during the testing, 1507 degrees just before the 4-5 shift.

This origanal post by Peter T, does not specify what the low boost fueling was set at. Seems to me that the low boost fueling setting could make all the differnce in the world.Edited by: Bronco

we tested from a dead stop and from a roll and the edge always pulled away in first gear. After that they were even but the banks never pulled on the edge. I have the banks on my truck now. I did a few 4wd boosted launches(w/t-bars down) last night after i left Mark's. Even with a 2100rpm launch the banks doesn't fuel enough in first gear to get a good launch. From a dead stop in 2wd I floor it with the banks and got ZERO wheelspin. If I did that with the 125 juice in would spin through first and part of second. In a 2wd race it is a test of the trucks traction(SLICKS EXCLUDED). In a 4wd race it is a test of the trucks power. The test Banks conducted really doesn't tell much since wheelspin is a big issue. The Banks does pull in 2 on up just not in first.

wait a minute here guys, a Banks product has been outdone by a diffrent performance company?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif


No front page news here.

Banks seems to be out done performance wise by others. However, I don't read a lot about tranny limp and no starts like most other seem to do frequently. I think I would lean towards The Banks system over others since I work out of my truck first and play only on weekends. Just my opinion though.

I would also tend to agree with Dmax power~If the tranny shifts better with the banks and although the edge may have a better advantage than the banks initially,i think in the long run the truck will have a much better life with the banks on it than the edge.Banks has never been a company to sacrifice safety and logevity of a vehicle to obtain gobbs of power.Granted,I would not really use the term "race box" if it isn't going to destroy most of what it runs against,but when the others have butchered the motor,tranny or otherwise my $$ would be that the banks truck would still be pluggin along

Who knows, if the banks box was fast off the start???? From my understanding, edge pulled the start and banks cought up in other gears to run side by side??????

The new “Race” tune will actually be the “Standard” tune in all the Banks 6-Gun boxes from now on. I applaud Banks for redoing the tune. This version is much better than the first! It is not the killer dream box that will beat any two boxes stacked together that some of us are seeking, but that is not the Banks way. In my opinion Banks is seeking out that larger group of people out there who are looking to increase power for towing and general driving, while staying within the limits of a stock truck. That is the way I will sell it, and hope Banks will also. The current Banks advertising (taken directly from the Banks web site) states,
<H3 style="MARGIN: 12pt 0in 3pt">“Six-Gun™ Diesel Tuner for Duramax
Lucky Duramax owners! Banks now offers Six-Gun, the world’s most advanced and powerful diesel tuner.” </H3>

That kind of statement sets expectations at an unobtainable level, and is the reason why a lot of people here have bad feelings towards Banks. If you want a safe, reliable, and tow friendly setup, buy the Banks. If you want a race truck buy the Edge Juice. The Banks will race, and the Edge will tow, don’t get me wrong. There are more products out there to choose from, and everyone has their preference in which one is best, but you can’t go wrong with either of these.

very well said

lol... truth in advertising? Shoot dude, go check out a nissan titan commercial. They say they tow the best in class... what class are they in? compact car with a bed??

Banks seems to be out done performance wise by others. However, I don't read a lot about tranny limp and no starts like most other seem to do frequently. I think I would lean towards The Banks system over others since I work out of my truck first and play only on weekends. Just my opinion though. Over the past 63,000 miles (Yes I said 63,000 miles) I have used Propane, TST PowerMax, first juice, Predator, and Quadzilla Stealth. And other then performance problems with the early release of the regular Juice, I have never had a no start, or much of any other problem with any aftermarket performance product. Can anyone say that about the 6-Gun? AH! No, there you have the answer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif I have about 40,000 with the Stealth and I have had a grand total of 0 problems with it, can anyone with the 6-Gun say that? AH! No, there you have the answer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


As far as transmission limp, the performance box has to produce power in order to cause the transmission to limp. So that seems to disqualify Bankshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif


Edited by: hdmax

Is it just me or is there a general hate on for banks around here? Not everybody, but I would be willing to bet there is a large majority on that side of the fence. What's up with that. I'm not necessarily pro Banks - nor am I anti Banks. When I get to the point of purchasing a performance upgrade, I expect they would be in the mix. Other than the usual Banks sucks Edge is better rhetoric, no one has convinced me it is a general ripoff.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif

Banks seems to be out done performance wise by others. However, I don't read a lot about tranny limp and no starts like most other seem to do frequently. I think I would lean towards The Banks system over others since I work out of my truck first and play only on weekends. Just my opinion though. Over the past 63,000 miles (Yes I said 63,000 miles) I have used Propane, TST PowerMax, first juice, Predator, and Quadzilla Stealth. And other then performance problems with the early release of the regular Juice, I have never had a no start, or much of any other problem with any aftermarket performance product. Can anyone say that about the 6-Gun? AH! No, there you have the answer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif I have about 40,000 with the Stealth and I have had a grand total of 0 problems with it, can anyone with the 6-Gun say that? AH! No, there you have the answer.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Disapprove.gif


As far as transmission limp, the performance box has to produce power in order to cause the transmission to limp. So that seems to disqualify Bankshttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif




Blah! Blah! Blah! There is post after post on this forum alone of all these other tuners causing the problems mentioned. Your PERFECT track record doesn't make everyone else's problems go away. Sure, there are a lot more people using the non-Banks products so that makes for a higher percentage of people with problems. But of the people here that use the Banks boxes i don't recall any one that has had these related problems. Most complain about it not meeting their expectations. All that hurts is your feelings not your truck. i think it is more cost effective to repair my feelings than resetting codes and not being able to go jump in my truck and go to the store because it has starting problems.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Shocked.gif

Thanks for posting results.

Is it just me or is there a general hate on for banks around here? Not everybody, but I would be willing to bet there is a large majority on that side of the fence. What's up with that. I'm not necessarily pro Banks - nor am I anti Banks. When I get to the point of purchasing a performance upgrade, I expect they would be in the mix. Other than the usual Banks sucks Edge is better rhetoric, no one has convinced me it is a general ripoff.


http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Ermm.gif





Yea I get that same vibe around here. Didn't stop me from gettin the six-gun, some are afraid to be different. I am happy with the power the truck has and feel that I haven't sacrificed reliability. Not to say that edge doesn't make a quality product as well and until I try it I won't dog on it. Im sure I will want more power eventually but I gotta remeber that this is my tow vehicle, the 600hp is riding in the trailor behind me and after the 2.5 hour drive to the dunes I can satisfy my hunger for HP. I guess a buggy has a slight weight advantage too........2200 pounds+600HP=seein alot of sky

I am happy with what my six gun did with my truck versus stock. Probably going to send in the box to get it flashed with the "race" program... Might get around to getting the header drilled so I can run the speed loader. I love my banks exhaust.


I have yet to have a complaint. The one issue I have had with the truck, was a manufacturer defect with an injector, and GM tossed me a turnkey motor and a dealer I hadn't even dealt with before put it in and guess what.. 20k miles and we're still rolling strong.


Sure, it'd be cool to go faster. But I know that when you go fast shiznit breaks. That's why I don't get anything "better" because you know what? I'm married and I'm enlisted. That equals low income and I can't afford to replace a transmission, or spend umpteen thousand dollars to beef a tranny.


Banks equipment fits the bill for my needs and purposes. If I had disposable income, I'd go get a standard cab dooley with a duramax, get some MT 18" DOT street slicks and run them on the back end, and just hot rod the heck out of it.

Is it just me or is there a general hate on for banks around here? Not everybody, but I would be willing to bet there is a large majority on that side of the fence. What's up with that. I'm not necessarily pro Banks - nor am I anti Banks. When I get to the point of purchasing a performance upgrade, I expect they would be in the mix. Other than the usual Banks sucks Edge is better rhetoric, no one has convinced me it is a general ripoff.


&lt;IMG id=chkImg1 onmouseover="this.style.cursor='hand'" onmouseout="this.style.cursor=''" alt="Click on image to open in new window" src="smileys/Ermm.gif" name=chkImg2&gt;





Yea I get that same vibe around here. Didn't stop me from gettin the six-gun, some are afraid to be different. I am happy with the power the truck has and feel that I haven't sacrificed reliability. Not to say that edge doesn't make a quality product as well and until I try it I won't dog on it. Im sure I will want more power eventually but I gotta remeber that this is my tow vehicle, the 600hp is riding in the trailor behind me and after the 2.5 hour drive to the dunes I can satisfy my hunger for HP. I guess a buggy has a slight weight advantage too........2200 pounds+600HP=seein alot of sky

I couldn't agree with you more. I plan to probably get the new six gun w/speedloader unless I can be convinced otherwise to get the hot juice/attitude. I'm addicted to anything that will make you go fast. At the same time, I drive my truck everyday and have 98,500 miles on it in just over 2 years. That is why I feel more comfortable using the Banks box. They seem to have the longevity of the truck in mind a little more. I have towed a 7"X14" dual axle cargo full of tools for most of that 98,500. Then on the side, I tow my 16' flatbed dovetail with all the HP I need to satisfy my cravings. When i feel like a speed junkie, just go jump into my 475 WHP Honda Accord and do what it does best. Blows the doors of all the V8's around. I'm a street/track race junkie.
With all of that said, I have my toy. I want my truck to be fast but more importantly DEPENDABLE. Until someone convinces me other wise, I lean toward BANKS. Just my opinion.http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Big Smile.gif

Wow DMAX POWER007 I thought I drove my truck alot but nothing near 45,000+ a year. I feel very confident in my six-gun and I don't think you will be disappointed (for time being at least). I am in a similar situation to you as I have a 99 GSR with a greddy turbo kit on it and while you got me beat by about 175 hp with your accord it is still fast enough to disappoint some of the V8 boys. Although now that my car is for sale im driving my truck alot more and hungry for power but no lookin to shell out for a tranny anytime soon.

pretty simple really..if you want something that will add power and retail RELIABILITY year after year...the banks is the one to go with.Many of these smaller companies are always trying to aspire to what banks achieved years ago and those companies will say and do anything to degrade the integrity of a huge diesel performance company like Banks.if you just want to go fast and don't care what the end result will be,buy something else...Remember, Banks can do ANYTHING the other guys can do and probably ALOT better if they wanted,but there is a big thing called SAFETY involved with tuning &amp; i don't want my D-MAX going to the graveyard before its time~

Although there are people that have had problem with thier tuners and boxes all I have heard of is drivability problems, you keep talking about reliability though? I havent heard of any boxes being the death of a duramax?http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gif A few being the death of an allison though but like was said cooking an allison is just about power, you have it and you can cook one. The edge or TTS or quadzilla or what ever makes more power than you think can be saftly ran through a stock Alli? Do one of 2 things, dont turn the box up all the way or keep your foot outa it. Its not the boxes fault your nuking stuff its the driver!


Unless someone can actually give me a reason why my juice or any other tune will hurt my trucks reliability more so than a Banks box??? False marketing and propoganda dosnt count BTW, some actual evidence pleasehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Evil Smile.gif http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif. Yes that last sentence was a jab but its the only intended shot in therehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif


You guys sound like a bunch of Ford and Dodge guys with thier talk of "I want my truck to ride like a truck" here with all the I dont need power, I have something else for that. I like to have my cake and eat it too. I like having a capable truck that rides like a car and i like having way more power than a bloated pig of a truck should have....opps theres another jabhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Embarrased.gif....sorryhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Hug.gif


differet strokes though, do what make you happyhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Approve.gif

Carbon04,


Do you have the speedloader installed? On level 5, it spun in first and chirped the tires in 2nd. On level 6, mine spun through 1st and all the way through 2nd. No lack of power in 1st gear on mine. It comes out strong from the get-go. I'm very impressed with the new version. Like I said in my other post "Banks 6-gun version 2", on level 6 it seems to run as fast or faster than my friends 155hp Bullydog.

Scotty,


OOC, How is the smoke at low-boost and WOT?

Levels 4 and below, there is hardly any smoke at all on WOT. Level 5, there's a little more, but not too noticable, with a puff of smoke out of the hole and when it shifts to second. Level 6, you can see smoke, but it's by no means intrusive, with a bigger cloud of smoke out of the hole and when it shifts to second. I have to admit, I wasn't really looking at the exhaust too much. I was more focused on the g-tech. These runs were done when it was 85 degrees and humid.

pretty simple really..if you want something that will add power and retail RELIABILITY year after year...the banks is the one to go with.Many of these smaller companies are always trying to aspire to what banks*achieved years ago and those companies will say and do anything to degrade the integrity of a huge diesel performance company like Banks.if you just want to go fast and don't care what the end result will be,buy something else...Remember, Banks can do ANYTHING the other guys can do and probably ALOT better if they wanted,but there is a big thing called SAFETY involved with tuning & i don't want my D-MAX going to the graveyard before its time~

Im having a tough time reading this statement without laughing.............however what banks does best is write advertising..............if this box is as strong as they claim the the tranny issues will be present there also.............Im glad they got to the standard EDGE and TTS set years ago.

what exacly is the speed loader?


i want to add power but i dont was to make it way notice able if i take it in for warrenty work. i mean i would take out what ever i had in but from what was stated above "Might get around to getting the header drilled so I can run the speed loader" DRILL the header?? i am alittle worried about that. any thing i want to do to the truck must be able to come off for warrenty work.

The speedloader is a small module that plugs in between the 6-gun and the switch. It's out of the way under the dash. You must drill and install an egt probe in the manifold so that it can monitor temps if the speedloader is plugged in.


Without: 128hp 345tq


With: 155hp 385tq

There are a ton of boxes banks included that are undetectable when you unplug em. With the hole in the manifold just tell em you are in the process of installing some gauges. Dealers dont care about guages. A tuner is aguably more susepitbale to being found than a box but even then it would take a smart tech and it would be hard to prove.


Well unless Booker sold em his majic juicer LOL Thank you thank you, I'm here all night, no show the samehttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Clown.gif(there is no juicer....just a joke)


There is absolutly no way in feck a stock alli will put down 155HP to the ground in all gears. I dont care whos box it is and what majic voodoo they do. I would actually say that I dont believe that 130 would happen without slippage. No flame intended Scott, JMO and what I have seen.

how big is this hole and if i ever take the speed loader out could i leave the hole? i need to be carful on what i out on my truck and i need a plan so that it will be almost undetectable. and anouther plan so if it is detected what i should do about it.


but how big is this hole? and is it worth the $600(thats what a mamber told me) for everything?

Ok yamaha, lemme "school" you.


The Banks 6 Gun simply plugs into your existing engine control harness. It also requires 2 taps onto the transmission. The Speed loader is an add on module to the 6 gun, and requires an exhaust temperature sensor to be installed so it can tell when it's "too hot" and cool it down by detuning, so you don't cook the turbo.


If you removed the speed loader and 6 gun, all you do is put a bolt in the exhaust header, or do what I would do in that case. Go buy a EGT Gauge and install another probe right where it was before. The 6 gun also has gauges that Banks sells that you can plug into it, allowing you to use that single probe for both EGT monitoring and the speed loaders safety "parachute".


I don't have the speed loader installed, and you know what? With my stock "old" 6 gun box on the truck I have some nice get up and go. I'm happy with it and the only thing I am doing in the future engine wise, is some extra filtration of fuel, a programmer that ditches the speed limiter (wife and I are going to be vol. fire soon) and install the speed loader and some gauges. That's it.


I've got another truck if I want to go stupid fast.. 87 GMC sierra 1500 with a hopped up 396, Turbo 400, and once I rebuild it I'm probably going to end up feeding it with a bottle for the track.


This here deezel is my daily driver and I cannot afford on E-4 pay to have a deadlined truck for any reason.

ratlover,


My friend has a 2004 Crew Cab Short Box, everything stock except his Bullydog Power Pup. He runs it on the 155hp setting all the time. He has done several runs with it up to top speed. It has NEVER limped the tranny. My 6-gun seems to spin the tires even more so in 1st and 2nd than his. My tranny is also stock. At least when mine does detect slippage (3%), it will back down. Where the Bullydog has no such protection feature.

I have never limped my trany but i have slipped it. I had my edge turned to the 125 setting and stomped on the gas in 5th with now downshift i saw the slip percent via the attitude imediatly show a couple % at witch point I got outa the throttle. Just because it dont limp dosnt me you arnt slipping. The juice also didnt get a chance to back down since I got my foot outa it before then. If you are worried about 100% saftey IMO I wouldnt rely on a box that backs itself out. JMO but if its slipping its too late. IIRC the boxes just view converter slippage so you tranys clutches could be by by and the box would never know.


I still say that you arnt going to put down 155 hp for very long on a stock alli. We shall see how my clutches look like after running on the 90hp juice (and the last week of a 125 since I got suncoast goodies sitting ready to go in)


IMO there are 2 ways a box can be hard or easy on a trany. 1 is how much torque it puts out. 2 is how it defuels.


So a 155 banks box runs about even with a 125hp juice box? Not a pro juice plug or a anti banks shot.

ratlover,


Do you know if Carbon04 had the speedloader installed when they ran it against the Juice/attitude? I suspect that he didn't if they both had the Juice on at first and then he switched to the 6-gun, unless he drilled another hole in the manifold for the egt probe. I don't think the egt probe for the Edge will plug into the Banks. He said that he couldn't get any wheelspin at all. I'm thinking he ran the 6-gun without it (128hp), which would compare quite close to the 125hp Juice. I'm just going by how mine performs to what he explained. I know that my 6-gun w/speedloader on level 4 (102hp) is faster than the Hypertech on level 3 (96hp).

The speedloader deal was more of a question, I was curious if he was or wasnt. Sorry if i wasnt clear.


What does the banks use for a thermocouple? There are only 2 standard sizes IIRC. Unless they use thier own and its some off size? Even if it dosnt have the right plug in ends a regular probe *should* slide into the hole for the speed loaders probe for testing or trips to the dealerhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Wink.gif I would think???


My edge dosnt get wheelspin right off the line....I have to make it a few feet, once i get midway through the intersection it starts breaking more traction actualy. I cant wood it and nuke em through gears??? If i build a bit of boost thats a different story thoughhttp://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/HiHi.gif

I must be a gluten for punishment. Last time I posted in a thread like this I was dragged over the coals. I was accused of being a hard core Banks supporter.


Let me tell you all up front, supporting Banks is not my intention. Bringing the truth to the surface so that 95% of the particiapnts understand the truth is my intention. So here goes.


The last few post of this thread refer to Banks Hp numbers being 155HP and Edge numbers being 125HP. You need to understand we are not comparing Apples to Apples here.


Banks numbers are not peak. Edge numbers are. This means that Banks chose a very specific RPM to base there entire advertising campaingn from. The 155HP IIRC is really a number that is derived from somewhere around 2200RPM? This essentialy calculates to a peak gain of approx. 100 HP.


The Edge box rating of 125HP is a peak number. So if we are talking dyno to dyno the Edge makes more power. However the latest release of the six gun has not been independantly dyno tested and posted here at the place. ( dyno numbers) So the new six gun peak numbers could be higher than there previous peak of 100HP.


So anytime you are comparing manufactures published numbers you need to keep three things in mind.


First, flywheel or rear wheel?


Second, peak or specific Rpm?


Third, inspect the entire TQ curve and HP curve. The module/programer that produces the highest AVERAGE TQ number in your desired operating RPM range will give you the most all around driving satisification.


One final observation, Dyno numbers are only part of the equation. Pay close attention to people who drive like you. If hardcore racing is your style, pay attention to the time slips from hardcore racers. If a basic, mash it to the floor with no special launch or vehicle setup is your style, pay close attention to these peoples time slips/0-60MPH.


Dyno numbers can be misleading, time slips never lie. (unless puposely decieved)


A special note to Scotty and all that have tested and posted there recent findings from the Banks six-gun and any other power adder for that matter. Although your findings will always be open for debate, I do appreciate your time and effort and I am sure many others do as well.

The Banks thermocouple holder threads into a 1/4" NPT pipe hole... The holder would probably hold other 'couples. The Edge uses a 1/8" NPT hole, I believe.

Yes I did have the speedloader installed and yes it was working properly. I had thermocouplewire connected and the TCC wires. We had the Banks on more than just my truck. And the verdict was the same....the Banks Race does not pull as hard in 1st gear as the other boxes we tested. But like I said this is how it reacted on MY truck and WI Hucks truck. Yours maybe different. I am not saying that the Banks isn't a good box, it just isn't going to do what I want it to. I had to return the box before I had a chance to run it at the track, but I honestly don't believe that it was going to best my 125 juice in the 1/4 mile. And another thing.......just because it shifts smoother and quicker than the edge doesn't mean that it is safer for your trans. All that means is it defuels LESS and will probably be worse for your trans. Banks does have a disclaimer saying that an upgraded torque converter is "SUGGESTED".

I concur with Bronco’s post and would add that load dyno testing and acceleration dyno testing will vary considerably as well. The new calibration will fare much better in an acceleration dyno test than the previous calibration.

I just purchased the Banks today. I didn't have a tap and die set so I haven't installed the speed- loader yet. My tires didn't spin... http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/smileys/Confused.gifHow do I get the new "calibration" Where does it say which version I have? How much better will it be with the speed loader?

Leefay,


From Peter T's earlier post:


"On the label for the Six-Gun there is a part number and a serial number. Part number 62956 is the Six-Gun with the first calibration that we shipped. It is emissions compliant and is covered under CARB E.O. D-161-74. Part number 62967 is the “race” calibration and is not emissions compliant."