Yes, yes, I know. Starting Fluid. Bad idea. Don't do it. Engine revving uncontrollably, blah, blah, blah.

After we all get it out of our systems about not using it...I'd like to know who is using it and how.

My truck is a pain in the keester to start when it's cold outside. I've replaced all the glow plugs, checked the relay, checked the voltages delivered to the glows, checked the wires, etc. Still the truck takes excessive cranking to start.

I have no issues with the injectors so I can only assume they are good (yeah I know what "assume" means).

If I keep the heater on it overnight...it starts fine. With 263K on it...I'm figuring its just a little weak in the compression area.

So here is the question: When I inevitably get out somewhere and can't plug the silly thing in...what is the best way to go about using the starting fluid?

I feel silly about asking because I've used it for years on old dozers and tractors that were non-turbo. The turbo is the only reason I ask. I don't want to get into a cold startup over-rev condition.

Go on...let me have it.

Haven't tried it on my truck, but I use WD-40 (CRC56, etc.) instead of ether. Volatile enough to light and lubricates instead of drying things out.

WD-40...Good idea. I've used it alot to start my campfires but hadn't thought of trying it on a diesel. Thanks!

It is not a good idea with a glow plug engine .Or disable the glow plugs if you do .

It is not a good idea with a glow plug engine .Or disable the glow plugs if you do .

Everything I've read on this subject agrees with your statement. It also appears that if I disable the glows, there should be no risk of "an explosion" in the intake.

I guess a big battery disconnect switch to the glow plug relay may be in order!

WD-40 is the most suggested alternate I've read.:)

Yep disconnect the glow plugs.

I would be worried about drying out your cylinders as well especially on a high milage engine who's getting worn anyway. WD 40 may well be the solution.

Have you considered the trick of making your glows stay on longer before starting. There is a couple of methods out there here is one I inquired about the other day. (without using easy start of course)

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109502&page=2
post 11 and 17

Also one of the biggest crimes in using easy start is the shooting of the fluid directly into the air intake, now there is a bent conrod just waiting to happen. A couple of short bursts to create a mist over the intake end is much better.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

You want your truck to start easier, so you're going to disconnect the glow plugs?

Why am I not seeing the big upside to this plan?:help:

Maybe I'm missing something here.

You want your truck to start easier, so you're going to disconnect the glow plugs?

Why am I not seeing the big upside to this plan?:help:

the glow plugs can prematurely ignite the ether and cause engine damage. some diesel engines have ether injection instead of glow plugs.

I've seen wd-40 recommended as well. I'd try that first since it doesn't require disconnecting anything.

Try it. You might find it easyer to start with out the glow plugs useing starting fluid insted. I think you will only see that happen when it is realy cold out.
Well I guess I know my next mod:
A glow plug disconnect switch and small door thing on top of the air intake to spary the stuff in through.

Many thanks. I'm going to try WD-40 once I create a fast way to disconnect / reconnect the glows. The thing starts great as long as it isn't allowed to cool off for more than 10 hours.

To clear up a few things:
Yes, i've tried shorting across the glow relay to keep them on longer.

RESULT: No change. Still hard to start. Suspect low compression due to excessive clearances when cold. She's using about a quart of oil in 3000 miles.

Maybe I'm missing something here.

You want your truck to start easier, so you're going to disconnect the glow plugs?

Why am I not seeing the big upside to this plan?:help:

Let me clear it up for you:
Lots of $$$ spent on glow plugs and system to ensure it works properly.
Result: The piece of **** is still a pain to start when fully cooled and temps drop below 40F.
Thought: If they won't start it on a cold morning...what the **** good are they?

I'll throw the battery switch back on once the thing is running for all my "partially warm block" starts. I miss my 350.:bawl:

That is not to bad.
I burn about 3 to 5 gallons of oil every 3000 miles.
It's just fuel to me.

I have used warmed either in the past without trouble on other 6.5's besides what i'm currently driving, cold either and you may as well be pizzing into the wind. Trick is to turn it over a half dozen times or so to warm the chambers, wait 15 secs for the heat to dissapate into the cylinders, mist the either pre-filter while someone else cranks, i have never hurt a thing. But maybe i'm lucky sometimes?

No Nick, i don't think i used any on the 95 :D

CanRig,

Good points. On the crank and then wait trick...I've noticed this works.

When getting to the truck and discovering that my handy dandy, extra heavy duty extension cord with mickey mouse overload device has tripped during the night (blast it all) I have to do a lot of cranking.

If I crank for a bit, wait, crank for a bit, wait, and then have at it again...it usually starts to hit.

This thing seems to crank and crank with little effect (either on the batteries or actually starting!) My old 350 would have melted the battery cables off by then.

Blasted thing anyhow. Why must we love the things that cause us so much pain...gosh I love to hear that diesel run...oh wait a minute...I have to get it started to hear it...blast...here we go all over again.

Have you thought about your starter being the problem? It might be worn and in the cold temps not spinning fast enough to crank the engine. Or thought about your batteries? They to could be weak and not supplying full power to the starter. Since you have repalced your glow plugs and relay I would suggest starter and battery as my next step to fully correct the issue.

If you think compression is the issue, check it, you can get a kit from Harbor Freight for not to much money, it never hurts to check.

Earlier this summer I was having the same problem as you. I used the ether trick to get my 94 running. It was suggested along the way about my starter.I changed my starter and voila,she starts like a hot dCensored with no sweat.
I added a relay system supplied and helped install by Canadian Diesel just to give it a little more time with the glow plugs.

She got a little chilly here last night and I tried the new relays and vroom at 0500 this AM.

Might be something to investigate.
My 2 cents worth.
Dan







Have you thought about your starter being the problem? It might be worn and in the cold temps not spinning fast enough to crank the engine. Or thought about your batteries? They to could be weak and not supplying full power to the starter. Since you have repalced your glow plugs and relay I would suggest starter and battery as my next step to fully correct the issue.

If you think compression is the issue, check it, you can get a kit from Harbor Freight for not to much money, it never hurts to check.

The thing turns some heads when I crank it cuz she spins over WAY faster than other 6.5's I've been around. The batteries hold up to extended cranking and the cables don't even suggest at getting hot.

...all of which makes me think "low compression"...but the dang thing runs great once it starts, pulls good, and doesn't use a lot of oil.

...I've thought about checking the compression...but the thought of taking those passenger side glows out again changes my mind PDQ. Besides...if it's low...what the heck am I gonna do about it? I might as well just start feeding it some cheap WD-40 for breakfast and make it go.

I thought the current WD40 did not work as an ether substite, it was just the old WD40 that worked. Had a diesel Mercedes with blow by and bad compression, hard stating and oil burning (1 qt every 50 miles). Ether was the only way to get it started.

I know you said you "thought" the injectors were good, so please don't tell us they are the originals, are they?

Did you read the latest "YES" thread by GMCTD. Low temps and voltage drops to the PMD/FSD can cause long cranks.

Grounds and all connections are a pain to work out but important to keep in top shape.

Look into extended glow time further depending on your glow plugs of course. 18:1 engines crank ok with extended glow time in the cold I think. So even if your compression is down it should crank if everything else is ok.

I like a heavy dose of a good fuel additive and cetane improver each fill up to have best starting performance of spiked fuel.


Now to answer your starting fluid question:
I use ether on an old farm tractor I can reach the air filter and turn the key at the same time (stretched out - no clutch saftey but transmission has to be in neutral) give it a wiff while cranking and she starts. I give it a few revs before spraying and only a bit at the time. I have tried top cylinder lubricant small engine starting fluids and they don't help as much. By oneself on a truck its hard to fog the intake and turn the key to start consistently w/o overloading the intake w/ starting fluid. With a helper to spray it it would be much safer.

I think you already mentioned you were going to hook glow plugs back up after cranking right. A cold engine will want to afterglow a bit. If you fogged intake too heavy afterglow might be dangerous I don't know. So wait a bit before hooking glows back up.

What number glow plugs are you using? I understand the # 60 GM plugs will not heat up enough on the older trucks. A manual glow override is needed to power them up longer.
I used a ford glow plug controller wired to the glow side of the stock controller. The fast heat plugs sold by some of the vendors work pretty good with the stock setup.
Ted

is your coolant temp sensor working?

I have never had a problem except...

When I had a bad starter.
When I had a bad battery.

The proper glow plugs should be able to heat the diesel in the combustion chamber enough to do the job, the engine is probably not turning over fast enough.

Maybe the glow plugs aren't working.
Maybe your using the wrong oil too.
Fuel additive?

I was driving home and thinking (I do my best thinking then) about this cold start issue. I don't WANT to use starting fluid but darn it...I have to go to work.

As I pondered I thought...this thing acts just like a gasser when it's flooded. Crank and crank, then sputter, sputter, and finally, running.

Which brings me to some questions.

First some more facts.
The truck can sit from 4-8 hours and will start with as little as 3 spins (sounds like 3 anyway) of the engine.

The truck runs good and strong and pulls great.

Let it sit for more than 8 hours in the cold and get ready to crank.

I had no such trouble in the warm weather and no such trouble if I use the block heater.

So here is the line of questioning:

Is it possible that my injectors are leaking down overnight and flooding the cylinders? It runs great and gets spectacular mileage...once it's running that is.

I get a little white smoke when it finally starts...not a cloud, but a puff.

As for the other questions:

I'm running brand new 60G's and they work fine as long as the truck doesn't sit for over 8 hours.

I read the post about electrical connections and I think I'm good. Once warm, the engine will start within 1 revolution.

I use 15W40 Rotella T.

My coolant sensor is working.

My starter is new and will spin the engine almost as fast as it can idle.

The batteries are new, matching, 1000 amp sealed lead acids.

I have gone over the entire glow plug system and it is working properly. Even shorting the glow relay does not alleviate the starting issue. By the way, the truck delivers about 11.4V to the glows with the key on. Normal?

if the injectors were leaking down, I'd expect to see more than just a puff of smoke...although "puff" is relative. If the injectors have over 100K on them, they are suspect.....but you say it's got good power and economy:confused:

What's your timing set to? Read gmctd's "yes" thread. Personally, I'd need a dumbed-down version of that if I were to do the same tests.





Going into another direction, does fuel pressure come up right away when you first switch the ignition on?

I just bypassed my OPS to fix a starting problem.

After all these years it finally cratered.

D
Now to answer your starting fluid question:
I use ether on an old farm tractor I can reach the air filter and turn the key at the same time


This reminds me of a gool ol'feller over in Illinois. I once went to his farm store and he invited me out to lunch. We went out to his old 80's Furd diesel truck. He opened his door pulled a can from behind the seat and walked around to the side of the truck. He then pulled up a hose laying behind the windshield wiper and running through a rust hole down into the engine bay.

Then to my amazement, he sprayed a liberal amount of starting fluid into the hose and...are you ready...he leaned over and blew on the hose!

He got back in and fired up the old Furd as easy as please while stating, "I just know this truck is going to give me lip cancer some day."

I thought he was a nut then. Now I think he was a genius.

[quote=joispoi;1368759;

Going into another direction, does fuel pressure come up right away when you first switch the ignition on?[/quote]

Hmmm...I see where you may be going with that line of thought. Starvation at the IP right? Well...maybe. The pump comes on with the WTS light and shuts off shortly after it goes out. Is that too long?

The truck continues to run if I open the T valve but I haven't "timed" how long it takes to fill a 1 Liter bottle.

It's a new lift pump but...as we know...that means nothing.

Timing? Which spark plug wire do I hook my timing light to? :D

I'm still thinking those # 60 glow plugs need more time to heat up. What plugs did you replace with the #60 plugs?
Ted

I replaced #60G plugs that the previous owner installed. They worked but had some strange resistance readings so I went ahead and replaced them when the cold starting became an issue.

What glows r ya runnin' in the quarter million mile beast TR?

Ditto on the 60g's. I had them in my truck last year for 6 months. I bought them brand new, and had to crank excessively in the middle of July. When fall rolled around I wasn't gonna put up with it anymore. Installed some quick-heats, and it's been popping over in half a turn ever since.

My advice... either try some hotter glowplugs, or rig up a manual glow button. The 60g's supposedly perform much better with an extra 5-10 seconds of glow.

Using starter fluid is not good with or without glow plugs.My first diesel was the 6.5 I just put back together because of using starter fluid.With 86,000 miles the dealer told me that is what caused the bottom end to develop cracks from the mains up into the cylinders.I'm not so convinced that was the only cause.Maybe it added to the already weak design.

Ditto on the 60g's. Installed some quick-heats, and it's been popping over in half a turn ever since.


Really? That much difference with quick heats over 60g's? Mine starts great in the warm weather.

Really? That much difference with quick heats over 60g's? Mine starts great in the warm weather.

YES, but that's just my experience. There are thousands of others on this site.

I added a relay system supplied and helped install by Canadian Diesel just to give it a little more time with the glow plugs.

She got a little chilly here last night and I tried the new relays and vroom at 0500 this AM.


I would test the draw on the starter first, then do the relay if you don't want to change out your glow plugs again.

Glows are mentioned in my sig line. SS Diesel sells them but they are WAP Inc. plugs. Fast heat, self regulating. I have had 3 of them burn out in less than a year though. 2 year warranty. Walt @ SS replaced, no problem. They started me very good through last winter. I'm thinking the set of 8 were around $70 including shipping.
Ted

YES, but that's just my experience. There are thousands of others on this site.


I have the same experience with my WAP quick heats.....doesn't take much to get it to fire at all.....

I'm glad the conversation is back on better glow plugs.

I've seen too many cool things... bent conrods, crecked webs, burnt valves... that all have ether as a central thread.

My question last night was meant to be funny - 'you're trying to get it to start better, so you unhook the glowplugs?' - apparently it wasn't.

I WASN'T SERIOUS.

My 94 has 290,000 km on it and starts up here in Canuckistan at -20 as long as it's plugged in; at -40 if I have both block heaters plugged in.

But when my glowplug relay crapped last spring, it would barely start on a warm day. I figure glowplugs make a lot of difference. Extending the 'ON' cycle would make even more, to my thinking. Use a heavy relay and a momentary 'on' switch and add 5 sec to them. Turn it over once and repeat. About the third time through, and mine starts at -20 after 16 hrs unplugged.

If it doesn't, you have other issues, likely fuel or injectors.

AND FR GAWD'S SAKE, get rid of the WalMart extension cord with the circuit breaker in it. If the cord is more than 15m long, it's barely alive as it is.

=======
Ah, listen to my BS. Hey, if I could get my WIFE to park out in the cold, I could put my Diesel in the garage and we wouldn't be talking about this!):h

I added a relay system supplied and helped install by Canadian Diesel just to give it a little more time with the glow plugs.

And what was the amp rating on the relay?

Aren't you guys just using a starter solenoid from an old Furd?

here is a pic of my homemade glowplug override. Used a motorcycle battery cable, a relay from ebay(cheep)looks about exactly like a powerstroke glow controller. Switch power is small red wire through a 15 amp fuse to a toggle switch then the blue wire back to the relay. Bigger red wire goes to glowplug terminal on stock controller. Glow light comes on in dash this way. Probably going to get a thicker wire to run to glow controller.
Ted

Timing issues were brout up earlier. With everything you have done it might be a good idea to double check your timing. Your timing can be off quite a bit and not set a code.

TedReminder,why the battery cable and then the small gauge wire to the glow controler?Won't it melt down?

Injectors are done for, (now that's without checking mind you) If they are original, change them, or have them tested, one or the other.

Chicago TDP reported an amazing gain in start-a-bility with injector change not that long ago.

Shy away from starter fluid idea, and let's get everything else baseline first, before doing some modification.

Check your air bleeder in the morning. Open the bleeder and turn the key on, dont start, just watch to see if fuel comes out of the bleeder. If not, then you have a bleed down situation, and good luck to ya. My thoughts are with you, and the search for the culprit.

OK. I will check this bleed down scenario first.

I have a hard time believing the injectors are shot considering how the things runs once its started but...who knows.

By the way...I installed a glow relay bypass using a Furd starter solenoid. I waited for the WTS light to go out, then hit the switch and held it for a full 10 seconds longer.

To my surprise, that old cold engine...did absolutely nothing (except crank).

So much for the glow plug route. I must have another problem. Dang thing still starts in about 2 spins of the crank if the heater is plugged in.

Oh...and if anyone can direct me to the instructions on how to check my timing, I'd be much obliged. I keep trying to hook up my timing light but darned if I can find the no.1 spark plug wire to hook on too.

Dufus,


This sounds like battery / starter / oil too thick / fuel problems to me.

Just a little slow on the turn over and she's not going to start.

You said it takes 2 spins to crank warm. That's not normal either.

1/2 turn should do it in any temp if glows are working, battery good, fuel, starter, compression.


whatcha thinkin?


I know you said it turns over good but is it slow?


Fuel may be clouding up?

Batteries in good shape (new), starter good (looks new and spins fast). I have never burned bio-diesel so...I don't "think" I have cloudy fuel. That leaves fuel delivery and compression.

It runs good and doesn't burn much oil. But...at 263K miles I'm wondering about the compression. On the other hand, if it's low...there's not a lot I can do about it beside throw $$$$ at it (no thank you.) That's what started this thread in the first place. I intend to make it go until she won't go no more!

The thing that is a bit baffling is that once it's started, it runs like a champ. And when it's warm, it's a breeze to start.

Maybe bypass OPS and get some fuel pressure up there and see if that helps.

I just wanted to close it out for anyone else having my symptoms.

First, I haven't checked ANYTHING in terms of fuel delivery. But, I did make an interesting observation.

I left the heater unplugged on a very cold night for a test. In the morning I turned the key and listened for the lift pump: check. I watched the WTS light and made sure it stayed on for a reasonable amount of time before going out: check. Then I listened carefully for the lift pump to shut off as it normally does, right after the WTS light goes out...waiting...it did not shut off.

So, I let it run. The WTS did it's usual cycling on and off for at least two cycles, THEN...the lift pump shut off. I hit the glow bypass button to heat the glows back up, turned the key and slick as you please it started.

I guess I have some kind of overnight leakdown issue. Many thanks to all who helped me figure out what to look for.

A little dab of gasoline on a rag works well, not near a violent as starting fluid, but not as convienent. As mentioned earliar disconect or wait a while for the GPs to cool before trying.

I had on old 91 ferd that was hard to start, I just left the breather hose off going to the aircleaner in the winter, in the morning I would turn the key on, pop the hood, grab my little squirt bottle out of the bed, grab my rag out of the aircleaner housing(from the day before), put a squirt of gas on the rag(doesn't take too much gas), throw the rag in the aircleaner housing, shut the hood, until the next day.

I still use starting fluid from time to time on tractors ect, but I like gas better, but those are last resorts for me, its hard to beat heat(heat is your friend), good fuel systems and good batteries.

Once rebuilt a cummins in a log skidder, put the engine back in, the skidder was parked in an open shed and it was about 20 degrees, couldn't get it to hit for nuthin, had fuel but would not fire(new rings not seated), wouldn't hardly hit on starting fluid, had new hot batteries and two sets of booster cables hooked to it. I looked over in the corner of the shed and saw a calf hair drier, stuck the hose in the pipe running to the turbo waited about thirty seconds, hit the starter, fired right up didn't miss a lick.

The source of the problem can be found andd corrected.

Using starting fluid in an emergency may be your only choice, but using it as a replacement for something being broken is bad.

You gusys still use wd40 ?? really????? got an old 782 diesel (kubota) lawnmower cub cadet and I found that hhen they switch the can style (new lable) the new stuff didnt owrk too well and resorted to using either, a little bit, w/o glow plugs wont hurt anything. Diesels are tought, i coudl giv eyou tons of stories, guys mixing gas in diesel "to make it start easier and all sorts fo stuff for years, no never helped and not good for anythign but did it a many of times.

The source of the problem can be found andd corrected.

problem source found=ford:banghead:

Corrected for the time being, replaced every single component of the glowplug system along the years including most of the high amperage wiring and fusible links. And your normal 2-3 glowplugs twice a year. Now it needs a inj pump wont crank very well when hot, but cranks good cold and the torque converter sheared again so its parked.

I was just offering an alternative to starting fluid. I'm not a fan of starting fluid or the wd-40 trick, dont care for oil soaked air filters(dont mix well in dirty enviroments) unless its the k/n on my hotrod,if you can even get the old stuff that will actually ignite.

Sometimes a guys gotta do what a guys gotta do, when its 15 degrees out and sleating and you have 800 head of cattle to feed you usually find an easy way to get you going, enstead of freezing your butt off trying to find a broke wire in a wiring harness.

I would be checking the pop pressure on the injectors and the starter to be sure your getting good spin on the sucker.
If the squirts are high milers they are most likely peeing a stream and not squirting a nice fine mist.

Pul a couple out and have them tested for POP pressure and spray pattern.
My old Blazer started hard in the cold. new set of squirts and poof problem solved.

Leave the Ma Startly (Ether) for the old dozers and heavy Cat Iron direct inject non glow engines.

The 6.2/6.5 should start easy without any heaters down into the teens.
Below zero is a different story, Plugitin plugitin !!! ;0)

what i would do is do make a either starting system, as you crank then engine over you also hit a button on the dash which shoots a spray of either into the intake tract of the engine., but it only will spray when cranking. its a idea.

Yea CD, thats the right way to do it, only spray while crankikng. Alot of equipment with factory installed either injection was wired like you suggested, either button getting its power from the starter solenoid wire.

They are all direct injection engines.

If you're forced to use ether to start your 6.5, I would suggest a small amount on the airfilter, then simply crank without waiting to start. The only time you'll have a problem is when the glows are already hot from repeated cycling.

kats makes a good either system, only problem is some of their systems use a rather expensive "propane bottle (hand held torch bottle)" not jstu your spray cans in their system a pain getting them filled (not many do it) and sort of expensive.

I'm having trouble starting as well. 5 degrees last night. What I do if I forget to plug it in, open the airbox, spray for less than 1/4 second, close airbox, close hood, put away ether in toolbox, get in pickup, turn on ignition, wait for glow plugs to cycle, and then start pickup, pickup starts right up without any knocking at all. I figure the little bit that I use, and waiting about 40 seconds should not damage the engine

Fysh Guide posted on here a couple months ago that he had tried putting his wife's hair dryer into the airbox for a little while once, when it was like -20, just as an experiment.

Said it worked great, started right up.

Also said his wife wasn't as amused as he was, which is something important to remember... :)

I just changed the glow plugs about an hour ago. I couldn't believe it. I only had three glow plugs working. If it was not plugged in I would have trouble starting when it got down to 25F. I'm impressed that it would start with only three working

i hear strting fluid is addictive the more you use iy yhe more you have to/(causis sloppy rings )from what i read about wd 40 it is a veggie oil base with a thinner of some type should work but didnt work on my 8v92

I forgot to say, I always try to start before I use starting fluid, that way there is unburnt fuel in the engine, the little bit of unburnt fuel acts as a lubricant, remember starting fluid is very dry.

Athough I don't like the idea of using starting fluid, I have had to a couple times this winter. Temp was -30C, I was parked at heliski lodge in high mountains with no plug-in for truck or the wifes' hair dryer. Truck had been sitting for 3 hours and wouldn't start, not even kick. After numerous attempts, I simply left ignition on, and gave the intake as short a shot of ether as I could. It fired right up, and smoothly enough. My logic was, after lots of turning over there is lots of fuel to lube, by not turning off ignition circuit I haven't reactivated the glow cycle, and by using as little as possible I've just given the fuel a bit more compressible combustion to get ignition.
I still don't like the stuff....
If anyone can dispute this theory, feel free....