Hey Guys,

A Duramax is in my immediate future, and I'm killing myself over the big decision betwen these two. I'm a multiple Ford and Dodge owner, this will be my first Duramax. I see these engines may not have the top HP numbers when done right up, but they are the quickest with minimal mods and by far the most fuel efficient when BOMBed (Cummins term - oops). I've kinda given up on Ford but will still keep a twin turbo Cummins around for fun!

Anyway, back to the first sentence I can't decide between the LMM or the LBZ. Without a doubt, the LBZ will go down in history as the pinnacle for the Duramax, much like the LS6 back in the 70 Chevelle. But the redesigned trucks of 08 are so much better, with nav, great syling, more stock power, etc. I'm torn between having the most modern truck with the best of everything or the awesome LBZ with so-so looks and a dated platform after next year.

So what would you guys do? Is there any possible way we could find a loophole and order a new style GM with the LBZ engine (lets say a one day thing where the new bodies are made with the old engines)? This would be a awesome; can we request one from the factory?

If not, what are the predictions for mods to these new engines? I know we will never see the awesome fuel mileage of the ol LB7s, but the LBZ will be much better tham the LMM. Will mods be able to reach the power potential of the "old" pre-emission engines will keeping some ability for economy?

Whats the consensus out there? Help me out! Give me your opinion!

WOW, I won the poll with just one vote!:)

Rick

Hey Guys,

A Duramax is in my immediate future, and I'm killing myself over the big decision betwen these two. I'm a multiple Ford and Dodge owner, this will be my first Duramax. I see these engines may not have the top HP numbers when done right up, but they are the quickest with minimal mods and by far the most fuel efficient when BOMBed (Cummins term - oops). I've kinda given up on Ford but will still keep a twin turbo Cummins around for fun!

Anyway, back to the first sentence I can't decide between the LMM or the LBZ. Without a doubt, the LBZ will go down in history as the pinnacle for the Duramax, much like the LS6 back in the 70 Chevelle. But the redesigned trucks of 08 are so much better, with nav, great syling, more stock power, etc. I'm torn between having the most modern truck with the best of everything or the awesome LBZ with so-so looks and a dated platform after next year.

So what would you guys do? Is there any possible way we could find a loophole and order a new style GM with the LBZ engine (lets say a one day thing where the new bodies are made with the old engines)? This would be a awesome; can we request one from the factory?

If not, what are the predictions for mods to these new engines? I know we will never see the awesome fuel mileage of the ol LB7s, but the LBZ will be much better tham the LMM. Will mods be able to reach the power potential of the "old" pre-emission engines will keeping some ability for economy?

Whats the consensus out there? Help me out! Give me your opinion!


Well, personally I like both trucks alot. I had a few chances to get some really smokin deals on the 06 LBZ's. ALthough, after seeing the new 2007s and hearing all the great things about them, I am going to definately wait for them.

I have the money right now saved up and can buy which ever truck I want now that I sold my old truck and one of my 1970 Chevelles.

However, you hit it right on the dot earlier with the statement "But the redesigned trucks of 08 are so much better, with nav, great syling, more stock power, etc."
Automatically, the new 2007's come with more power than the LBZ which is a definate plus for me. ALthough, when I test drove many 06 LBZ's, that amount of power was incredible. I cant even imagine more power than that which is just what the LMM comes with (more power!)

Plus, I really really like the new Tough Boxy look of the trucks with the LMM motors compared to the rounded truck look with the LBZ's.
Both trucks are great looking, but that rounded body has been around for soo long, it really is time that GM made a change.

I'm Also Very sure that the Newest Body 2007 GM truck on the block with all the great NEW features, will REALLY impress your buddys and neighbors.

Either way and which ever one you choose, Im sure you will be EXTREMELY HAPPY!:ro)


Good luck in choosing buddy!
:grd:

I'm liking the new body style, but with modding the truck, I would have to stick with the LBZ '07 model (with a pre 01-01-07 build date). Word is, trucks built after January the 1st '07, will be fitted with particulate traps. Any tampering with the fuel curve could plug up the trap and be costly. Not to mention only running the ULSD, which I haven't seen any of around here yet. Plus, don't forget how long will it be before software/chips are manufactured for the new trucks. And one last thing... Do you really want to be "one of the first"? It seems to take a year or two before the "bugs" are worked out of a new model. Sorry to be a downer... Those are my thoughts.

I like both trucks as well but the LBZ is a great engine. Also you will have to put up with the new Censored emissions-:t . Also with anything new there are going to be issues like with the filter and new ulsdf. Any new truck that comes out there are going to be issues, there always is. Like when the dmax first came out on the LB7's there were fuel issues. Everything new has there issues until they get the bugs out of the system. Take it from a diesel mechanic. Hope this helps you

I was under the impression that all diesels, new or old would suffer mileage loss due to the new ULSD. It'll be interesting to see if there is a loss since tomorrow the new ULSD goes online. chris

I was under the impression that all diesels, new or old would suffer mileage loss due to the new ULSD. It'll be interesting to see if there is a loss since tomorrow the new ULSD goes online. chris


:exactly:
Thats True Chris!
You are totally right.

ALL Diesel trucks are affected by the new USLD fuel, not just the new 2007 LMM trucks.

We already have the USLD fuel here in California. Everyone else across the country will have the USLD real soon if they dont have it already.

My friend has a new 2006 LBZ Duramax and he has already noticed a decrease in mialage based on using the new USLD. That truck is an LBZ too, which has decreased in mialage.

So whether you have a 2006 LBZ, or 2007 LMM, mialage will be pretty close to equivalent based on using the new USLD fuel.

Plus, of course you all should already know that with all the performance diesel guys out there like fingersticks and such, the particulate filter will be one of the first things that is bypassed on the new LMM trucks.:D

Just because it will be a new system, doesnt mean there arent guys smart enough out there to find ways to bypass all that junk. It will just take a little time, but I dont have any doubt that they will find ways to bypass emmissions things, if that is an issue for you.
:cool2:

It isn't just the ulsd, it is the new addition of the particulate filter. Get an LBZ. Avoid the LMM like the plague. The LMM and the LBZ are suppose to be the same as far as power goes.

just a quick question. when the factory comes up with the engine hp tq figures are the engines tested with cat and it the case of the 07 dpf installed or is it just an engine in a test cell? thanks

It isn't just the ulsd, it is the new addition of the particulate filter. Get an LBZ. Avoid the LMM like the plague. The LMM and the LBZ are suppose to be the same as far as power goes.



Actually Dmaxfan, the new LMM has MORE POWER than the LBZ.
LBZ is 360 hp and 650 torque.
LMM is 365 hp and 660 torque!

Thats incredible that they were able to make more power, while still producing less emmissions crap in the air.
The particulate filter will definately be the first thing to go Im sure on most LMM trucks.

The usld DOES make a definate difference. I have noticed a decrease in mialage on my 05 with running the new USLD.
So i would say that the USLD fuel does have to do with efficiency.

Of course most of our answers are going to tell you to by an LBZ, because thats all we know so far...

None of us have even seen an LMM in person and have never test drove one, so how would we know which one to tell you to buy. Until we have them in our hands, only then can we make an accurate choice of which is the better way to go.:exactly:

As far as looks go, After seeing the new 07's though, I am considering trading in my 05 for a new 2007 LMM Duramax. My rounded body style looks pretty wimpy next to the new Squared up 2007/2008 trucks.

Thats just my opinion.:)

[quote=DieselExpert;1351865;]Actually Dmaxfan, the new LMM has MORE POWER than the LBZ.
LBZ is 360 hp and 650 torque.
LMM is 365 hp and 660 torque!

I call BS on the new ratings!! It doesn't take a marketing genius to figure out what they are doing by printing that. Hell, who is going to prove them wrong? We all know stock our trucks (LBZ's) aren't making 360 and 650 at the rear wheels, so why not add 5 HP and 10 ft/lbs? Whoopee, crankshaft, OEM power specs have never been what I would call "accurate" they could have printed that and not made ANY changes. They have before and so has the competition. You absolutely cannot produce an all new truck, albeit more restricted, and have the same old HP/Tq ratings, this would be taboo in the car industry I'm sure. Tommy

[quote=DieselExpert;1351865;]Actually Dmaxfan, the new LMM has MORE POWER than the LBZ.
LBZ is 360 hp and 650 torque.
LMM is 365 hp and 660 torque!

We all know stock our trucks (LBZ's) aren't making 360 and 650 at the rear wheels, so why not add 5 HP and 10 ft/lbs? Tommy


Actually Tommy,

GM is not claiming to make 360 HP and 650 torque at the rear wheels on the LBZ like you previously stated.:eek:

Those numbers are at the flywheel my friend.



However, that would be pretty Awesome if the LBZ trucks had 360 HP and 650 Foot pounds at the rear wheels stock from the factory!!!:ro)

WOW, what would that equal at the flywheel... Like 400+ HP and 700+ foot pounds of torque at the flywheel?

:cool2:

All we need now is a Factory solid axle front end with that 400+ HP Duramax and we would have a real winner!

When they test the engines to get their numbers none of the restrictive dpf, cat, or anything else thats not bolted to the engine is taken into account, its all left off. I imagine the tweaked 5 more hp out of the dmax just to make people forget about the dpf and all the other stuff.

just a quick question. when the factory comes up with the engine hp tq figures are the engines tested with cat and it the case of the 07 dpf installed or is it just an engine in a test cell? thanks


Everything IS in fact installed.
Some one had the same question before here on dieselplace.

The answers were that the motors are tested with "everything" on them, including exhaust, cats, and particualte filters just as they would be bolted in the trucks.

Search through the threads, you can find it somewhere.

[quote=DieselExpert;1351902;][quote=crfrcr;1351887;]


Actually Tommy,

GM is not claiming to make 360 HP and 650 torque at the rear wheels on the LBZ like you previously stated.:eek:

Those numbers are at the flywheel my friend.



Actually I didn't previously state that. If you had quoted me one sentence farther you would have seen I put: Whoopee, crankshaft, OEM power specs have never been what I would call "accurate" they could have printed that and not made ANY changes.
What I was getting at is that the Factory ratings are not the be all end all when it comes to judging these trucks like the person I was quoting was using. Sorry you misinterpreted my post, hope this clears it up. Tommy

Everything IS in fact installed.
Some one had the same question before here on dieselplace.

The answers were that the motors are tested with "everything" on them, including exhaust, cats, and particualte filters just as they would be bolted in the trucks.

Search through the threads, you can find it somewhere.
:exactly:

When the engine is tested in the dynamometer, a complete exhaust system is installed in the test cell to make sure that the ACTUAL flywheel horsepower and torque are measured. This engine has also gone through a complete break-in process before it is tested in the dynamometer test cell.

Keep in mind that the reported numbers are typical numbers. Every single engine will NOT put out that same exact horsepower and torque; some will have slightly more horsepower and torque and some will have slightly less. There are guidelines for reporting advertised power and torque, I just can't find them at the moment.

From my experience, 5 HP and 10 LB-FT of Torque will be hardly noticeable by the seat of the pants (At these levels, 365 HP is only 1.38% more power and 660 LB-FT is only 1.54% more torque). You will really need a dynamometer to be able to tell the difference. You could actually find a HIGH-END LBZ and a LOW-END LMM that have close to the same actual power output. Obvously, with everything else being the same, a side-by-side run will very likely show which one has more power but it could go either way depending on the amount of break-in, driveline friction/drag, trans shift points, fuel delivery & timing tolerances, etc.

My vote at this time would be the for 2007 Classic built before 1/1/2007, with the LBZ engine.

To me, when it comes to these trucks, looks are not as important compared to the proven reliability and lower complexity of the LBZ package. Having the preatiest truck in the neighborhood does not help me if the system is more complex, is more expensive to maintain, has a greater propensity for breakdown and get even lower fuel economy due to the extra fuel required to periodically regenerate the DPF.

Nobody has ever test driven one outside the realm of GM. How can anyone make a reliable comparison of the two?

One thing is a given: Your truck will become officially "OLD" looking and outdated when the '07.5's come out.

Nobody has ever test driven one outside the realm of GM. How can anyone make a reliable comparison of the two?

One thing is a given: Your truck will become officially "OLD" looking and outdated when the '07.5's come out.




:exactly: :exactly: :exactly:

Soooooooooooo TRUE 3535.

Well said my friend!!!:thumb:

[quote=DieselExpert;1351902;][quote=crfrcr;1351887;]


Actually Tommy,

GM is not claiming to make 360 HP and 650 torque at the rear wheels on the LBZ like you previously stated.:eek:

Those numbers are at the flywheel my friend.



Actually I didn't previously state that. If you had quoted me one sentence farther you would have seen I put: Whoopee, crankshaft, OEM power specs have never been what I would call "accurate" they could have printed that and not made ANY changes.
What I was getting at is that the Factory ratings are not the be all end all when it comes to judging these trucks like the person I was quoting was using. Sorry you misinterpreted my post, hope this clears it up. Tommy




Ohh ok. Sorry bout that.
That does clear things up a bit.
:beerchug:
No hard feelings?

Great comments guys. I agree that when the 07.5s come out that the Classics will look dated.

I wonder if we will be able to scrap the particulate filter on these along with the EGR valves (finger sticks). I think we could achieve the previous fuel economy (notwithstanding the ULSD) with these except I expect with the faster computer there will be more injection events after TDC for NOx emissions, something that we won't easily be able to change. As far as i'm concerned this is just a waste of fuel. Does anyone have any info on how many injection events there will be (pilot, power, post combustion, etc.) I know they are now capable of five with the Common rail (same as the 6.7L Cummins and seven for the Piezo Ford injectors in the upcoming 6.4L). Scary. This was seen in the 04 vs 04.5 Cummins where they added a third injection event and mileage went to the crapper (this is how they got away from EG valves these years).

And generally GM seems to have their shite together when designing their engines, keep in mind this is a familiar platform engine, I'm sure it will have fewer bugs than the Fords and even the Cummins...

Either way that new 160,000km warranty should take care of them!

To comment on the upped HP, I expect these engines will be slower than the LBZs regardless of claimed HP. Gotta hand it to GM though, they are the only one that stayed comparable without increasing displacement.

At the end of the day I hope we can still keep having fun with thee engines the way we have been. I hope if we delete the cat.filter we don't void our warranty, I hope the faster computers don't log increases in HP and I hope this engine achieves a new level of BOMBability. But i still might go with the LBZ after all this...

Time will tell I guess.

Oh yeah,

The Dodge guys are claiing a major mileage increase when adding two stroke oil to the ULSD. Some guys are talking 1 - 1.5 MPG better. This might just undo our reservations about lubricity to the ULSD and its mileage. Maybe it adds some energy factor?

I have a buddie that works for GM design and he tells me the LBZ and LMM are the same motor. They achieve the extra horse and torque through a richment of the fuel. The are keeping the emmissions by relying on the particle filter to catch the raw emmissions. they are also going to a different type of converter.

He has already driven the new truck and motor and claims that you can not tell the difference.

So if you like the new body.... then that is the truck for you.

Rumor is all three manufacturers are having problems with durability issues in testing the new ULSD qualified engines. I would go with the sure thing LBZ. The new motors are so bogged down with emmissions controls I don't see how they will be any kind of improvement over the current models.

Does any one know how the LBZ is going to deal with ULSD. We do not have that feul around here yet, but the fuel is comming.

Does any one know how the LBZ is going to deal with ULSD. We do not have that feul around here yet, but the fuel is comming.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108232

...One thing is a given: Your truck will become officially "OLD" looking and outdated when the '07.5's come out.This is absolutely true and one needs to decide what is more important to them.

For me, it is more important to drive a reliable, well proven truck, that might not "look" like the newer GMT900's but gets the job done, rather than to drive what some might consider "the most beautiful truck in the planet", but might not be as reliable and is more complex and more expensive to own. Everybody has to set their own priorities.;)

BTW: My truck STILL looks brand new and other than a couple of very minor fit related issues that were quickly fixed, it has been totally trouble free!!! ):h

For me, it is more important to drive a reliable, well proven truck, that might not "look" like the newer GMT900's but gets the job done, rather than to drive what some might consider "the most beautiful truck in the planet", but might not be as reliable and is more complex and more expensive to own. Everybody has to set their own priorities.
And, the same crowd that is so ecstatic (in all caps, of course) about the "new look" trucks, and is counting on disabling the new emissions controls, will be the first to cry equally loudly when officials start to notice that these "new look" trucks should not be belching out black smoke.

I have filled up twice with the ULSD fuel and have not noticed a decrease in fuel milage.

I have a buddie that works for GM design and he tells me the LBZ and LMM are the same motor. They achieve the extra horse and torque through a richment of the fuel. The are keeping the emmissions by relying on the particle filter to catch the raw emmissions. they are also going to a different type of converter.

He has already driven the new truck and motor and claims that you can not tell the difference.

So if you like the new body.... then that is the truck for you.



:exactly: :exactly: :exactly:
I've heard the same exact thing Duramax 6.6.
It really Does come down to which body style you like better.
You just cant beat that NEW GMC HD body style.

The 2006/2007 classic body will definately be the body that is considered old and outdated, just as what was stated earlier.

Not much difference at all. Everyone is making Too much hype about a particulate filter that is going to be deleted anyway by most people.
:muahaha:

The future of ALL diesels WILL HAVE particulate filters. Whether it is GM, Ford, or Dodge.
While there will be and are many aftermarket parts for the LBZ, It is only smart for aftermarket companies to focus on all the BRAND NEW trucks that will have the particulate filters and emmissions stuff because that is where the future is going.
:thumb:

Yeah there are a good amount of LBZ's out there, but the amount of them is Very limited compared to how many LMM's there will be in the future. Come on , the production run of the LBZ was only 1 year, compared to tthe future of the Duramx being the LMM.

Plus, personally I dont mind a little bit cleaner air for the future of my grandchildren. Im Not an environmentalist or anything, but cleaner air is always a good thing!

After selling my LLY, my next Duramax will DEFINATELY be an LMM!!!
:cool2:


The new GMC Sierra had much stronger and beefier body lines the the old rounded body. These are the 1500's, but you get the idea. The HD's just have a little more body facisa and bigger grilles:

Not very hard to decide which is the tougher looking truck between the two...

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6782/dsc02316cd6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

VS.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/7518/03km3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Pretty easy to tell which is the beefier of the two.

And, the same crowd that is so ecstatic (in all caps, of course) about the "new look" trucks, and is counting on disabling the new emissions controls, will be the first to cry equally loudly when officials start to notice that these "new look" trucks should not be belching out black smoke.




Not too sure where you live, but the cops around here dont concentrate on trucks or muscle type cars for pulling over.
MOST Officals out here drive big modified trucks for God sakes!!!:ro)
Haha

The cops and officials concentrate more on pulling over the stupid little riceburners with their lawnmower coffee can exhaust.
:cool2:

Come on now, I live in California too, with the MOST STRINGENT exhaust regulations compared to anywhere else in the U.S.A.
:exactly:

Thats hardly an issue my friend.:)

NY is following a very close second to Claifornia, We are getting ready to start tail pipe sniffing diesels. It will be a snap throttle test for soot out put.

Looking at the front of the new GMC, to me it looks like a close copy of the F350...

I have a hard time believing the LMM is just like the LBZ plus filters and more EGR. The press kits say different turbo, lower boost, different injectors, faster CPU, and even block and head changes. Don't fool yourself, this engine may have equal power, but will not as efficient as the LBZ. We'll see what the aftrmarket does with the emissions crap after all this, may be for the better.

Hey the engines will be the same just with the new emission -:t garbage on them. The Lmm engine is another 5 hp and 10ft/lbs. I got to drive one over the weekend to bring to ohio for training from detroit. They are awsome.:) and :cool2:. The mileage is a little better than the LBZ's are suppose to be. When they test the engines it is like they are on the trucks with the filter and etc attached.

Hey diesel export just for your info there are 2 Dmax fans on here. just see how you spell it but its ok just giving you a heads up:)


Got any questions just ask.

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/07truck.htm#DURAMAXDIESEL66LV8TURBO

2007 DURAMAX DIESEL 6.6L V8 Turbo (LMM)
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats%20New/07_LMM.doc
DURAMAX DIESEL 6.6L V8 Turbo (LMM) Truck Engine
2007 Interim Model Year Summary

• New Engine For All Applications For The 2007 Interim Model Year
• New Fuel Injectors Improve Combustion Characteristics
• Durability Enhancement For Variable-Geometry Turbocharger
• Larger Exhaust Gas Recirculation Chamber
• Closed Crankcase Ventilation System
• Diesel Particulate Filter System
• Intake Throttle For Precise Combustion Temperature Control
• Electrically Variable Engine Cooling Fan
• Increased Engine Control Processing
• Lower Output Fleet Version Dropped


FULL DESCRIPTIONS OF NEW OR CHANGED FEATURES

NEW ENGINE FOR ALL APPLICATIONS FOR THE 2007 INTERIM MODEL YEAR
The all-new 2007 Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra 2500 HD and 3500 pickup trucks are the first applications for the new Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8 Turbo (LMM), which will be introduced in February, 2007. In addition, the Chevrolet Express and GMC Savana full-size vans and Chevrolet Top Kick and GMC Kodiak medium-duty trucks will also be equipped with the newly engineered Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8 Turbo (LMM) beginning in January, 2007.

NEW FUEL INJECTORS IMPROVE COMBUSTION CHARACTERISTICS
Sophisticated solenoid injectors are used to precisely control combustion and to take advantage of the cleaner Ultra Low Sulfur fuel federally mandated to be available for all on-road diesel vehicles for the 2007 model year. The injectors have six specially shaped holes, developed by Powertrain engineers to better atomize fuel for complete combustion of the fuel. The injectors are programmed to inject fuel into the combustion chamber at multiple intervals during one compression stroke. By doing this, the combustion event can be tailored to lower emissions and reduce noise at its source.

DURABILITY ENHANCEMENT FOR VARIABLE-GEOMETRY TURBOCHARGER
The unique variable-geometry vane-type turbocharger is housed inside the “V” of the Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8, where it is cooled by the engine’s cooling system. For 2007, the compressor is changed to a “boreless” type, which will increase durability at high rpm.

LARGER EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION COOLER
To help control combustion temperatures, exhaust gas is introduced into the intake system. The exhaust gas is also cooled inside an chamber, which was made larger for the 2007 model year to contribute to achieving lower emissions.

CLOSED CRANKCASE VENTILATION SYSTEM
The crankcase ventilation system is a sealed chamber between both cylinder banks of the Duramax Diesel 6.6L V8 to ensure that emissions from the crankcase are kept to a minimum.

DIESEL PARTICULATE FILTER SYSTEM
To accomplish a dramatic reduction in emissions of particulate matter (PM), a complex ceramic-type exhaust gas filter is installed behind the oxidizing catalyst already in the exhaust system. The filter replaces the muffler in location, and consists of hundreds of small, porous tubes blocked at one end, which force the exhaust gas through the walls of the tubes, which trap PM. The trapped particles are then burned off by the heat of the exhaust, which reaches 550 degrees Celsius. Sensors detect the differential pressure between exhaust gas entering and exiting the filter, and signal the engine control module (ECM) to adjust combustion to maintain the exhaust gas temperature. The use of Ultra Low Sulfur fuel is necessary, and it will be the only diesel fuel available for on-road vehicles at the beginning of the 2007 Model Year.

INTAKE THROTTLE FOR PRECISE COMBUSTION TEMPERATURE CONTROL
During low load conditions such as idling for extended periods and unladen low-speed driving, the temperature of the exhaust falls. To increase the amount of load on the engine during those periods, a throttle is added to the intake system, upstream of the turbocharger. This throttle is operated by the ECM as an additional control for combustion temperatures.

ELECTRICALLY CONTROLLED ENGINE COOLING FAN
The engine cooling fan is now controlled by the ECM. This allows the engine cooling system to be assisted by the fan only when necessary, which results in more precise control over the engine temperature and also aids efficiency and improves fuel economy slightly.

INCREASED ENGINE CONTROL PROCESSING
The powerful E35 ECM which added more processing capacity for the 2006 Model Year is reprogrammed to include substantially more functions. Adding to the existing functions such as the variable-geometry turbocharger, the E35 ECM now controls the new injectors, the data from the diesel particulate filter pressure sensors, the new intake throttle operation, and the electrically variable engine cooling fan.

I'm going to go for the LMM.

I thought about getting an LBZ Classic but I don't really want to buy a new "old" truck. There could be some risk due to the new LMM emissions changes but I'm not too worried. (just wait 6-12 months to see if issues crop up)

Besides that you still have to deal with ULSD whether you get a LBZ or LMM and the LMM does have slightly higher output. It also sound like there are other refinements to the LMM.

The only plus I see going with the LMM is the fact that its a new body style.


Accessories will take a while to come out
Performance mods will take a while to come out
Suspension mods will take a while to come out
Chips
programmers

The list goes on and on. Just look at the 88 year of pickups, they were junk when they first came out, then the new 99' silverado also had its share of problems. I will never ever by into a new body style the first year it is out.

Not to mention the new 08 style looks like ass. Hopefully they fix up that front end in 3yrs like they had to do with the UGLY looking 99-2002 front end on our current trucks.

Actually Dmaxfan, the new LMM has MORE POWER than the LBZ.
LBZ is 360 hp and 650 torque.
LMM is 365 hp and 660 torque!


Not enough of a difference to take a chance on a '07-'08 tree huggin' Duramax IMHO. From what I was read on here a 4' exhaust is why the new D'Max's have 5 more HP's.

The idea that GM is only revising and/or adding a few items to meet ever more restrictive emissions regs is flawed. They end up changing almost everything that has anything to do with putting fuel and/or air into, or out of, the engine.

When GM introduced the revised Duramax LLY to meet the then-new emissions standards effective 1/1/04, the changes they made inadvertently caused overheating problems, apparently for anyone who tows heavy on long uphill pulls. That problem was not rectifed until the 2006MY LBZ (and revised LLY) came out in the fall of 2005. And even the LBZs had a melting glow plug issue that dropped fragments into the cylinder and wrecked some engines. Though advertised as being for reduced start up time, the main reason for the new-for-2006 glow plugs was to reduce cold-start emissions. GM incorporated some items like the faster warming glow plugs into the 2006 LBZ that would be required to meet 2007 emissions limits.

So, a year and a half of Duramax production apparently has this flaw. GM was able to duck the issue in most cases because most Duramax owners rarely tow heavy enough long enough to really encounter the problem. GM's primary "fix" was to turn the coolant temperature gauge into an idiot light that reads low until an overheat condition is reached.

Now they've probably learned that lesson and the LMMs won't overheat. It certainly seems like an effort has been made to boost airflow though the radiator stack. But what other problems might the LMMs have?

Looking at the front of the new GMC, to me it looks like a close copy of the F350...

WooT! That's what I thought too! When did GM start building Fords?

As for which to buy... get the one you like the most! With the new 7/100 warranty, there shouldn't be an issue with either!

I bought an '06 new and am as happy as can be with it! It is going to last me 10 years, so styling just has to be pleasing to me, and I can't worry what GM will do in 3, 5, or 7 years.

Make a choice, pull the trigger, and live with your decision!

A lot of guessing going on here. Fact is, both models will have plenty of towing power in stock form. The "old" body style will likely take a hit in the form of resale value (there I go, adding to the guessing game). I'm waiting for the LMM. My winter towing weight is almost half of what I tow in the summer. If I think I need more power then, I'm sure the goodies will be out and available. Sure, the new style could have some issues, but any truck can, regardless of the year model. I've bought new models in the past of ATV's, Bikes, and sleds, and never had an issue.
Frankly, I'm tired of spending time and money on gauges and such after adding mods. I will hopefully be inclined to be satisfied with my new LMM in stock engine form. We'll see though........

If you think you want the new style, get it, and don't worry about it. They will be nice.

I swapped my 03 LB7 for an 06 LBZ to avoid the issues that are sure to appear with the new engine. If the new LMM works out OK, I'll go to an 08. I remember the problems associated with the 88 model, and I remember the times I've been an inadvertent test driver for GM! Incidentally, I took the LBZ from Idaho to CA this past month, and burned the diesel they had down there - no problems. And, roughly the same mileage I got with the LB7 (pulled a 31' RV) Bill Martin

I swapped my 03 LB7 for an 06 LBZ to avoid the issues that are sure to appear with the new engine. If the new LMM works out OK, I'll go to an 08. I remember the problems associated with the 88 model, and I remember the times I've been an inadvertent test driver for GM! Incidentally, I took the LBZ from Idaho to CA this past month, and burned the diesel they had down there - no problems. And, roughly the same mileage I got with the LB7 (pulled a 31' RV) Bill Martin

So, you bought a "new engine model" LBZ, to avoid a "new engine model" LMM. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

So, you bought a "new engine model" LBZ, to avoid a "new engine model" LMM. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
The LBZ is no longer a "new engine model."
The LBZ was a "new engine model" just over a year ago, in Sept. 2005.
But early bugs in the LBZ (like the melting glow plugs that wrecked several engines) have now been corrected. A summer's worth of experience also indicates that the LBZ apparently doesn't overheat under sustained heavy load like the then-new "new engine model" LLY did after it was introduced in Jan. 2004.

Are you sure? The early '06 models had the LLY still. Yes, it is proven now. But that has nothing to do with the revelence of the statement I commented on. He bought an '06 LBZ, that engine had not been out a year, but he is afraid to buy an '07 LMM, until it has been out 2 years. Didn't make sense to me. It sounds a little contradictory to me is all.

The LBZ is a great engine. None of us knew that just prior to it's debut. Who knows about the LMM? We all will, in time.

The early MY2006 LLYs are not the same as the 2004.5-2005 LLYs.
As far as anyone has been able to determine (and a lot of people have investigated this thoroughly), the 2006 LLY is essentially physically the same as the LBZ, but with a different ECM program rated at a lower power output.

Among the more obvious differences is that the 2006 Duramax LLY/LBZ both have the new Bosch 32-bit ECM.

True that the '06 LLY is in a world of it's own. And someone buying a first year model engine, then saying he wouldn't is contradicting, still. I'm not attacking the person that wrote this, just merely making an observatory comment. And I'm also done arguing about it.

I will let you know how the LMM's are. I will likely have one in February. I said it in another post, and I will repeat it. The more people are afraid of this new truck, the more of them will be sitting on the lots. Better pricing and availability for those of us that are buyers (in theory, anyway). Time will tell, until then, it's nothing but guess work.

Why are they Replacing the LBZ so quickly? I remember the days when my LB7 was top of the line, now its practicaly a gezer. Lol, I LOVE IT!

It is being replaced in order to meet the new 07 emmission requirements

Are you sure? The early '06 models had the LLY still. Yes, it is proven now. But that has nothing to do with the revelence of the statement I commented on. He bought an '06 LBZ, that engine had not been out a year, but he is afraid to buy an '07 LMM, until it has been out 2 years. Didn't make sense to me. It sounds a little contradictory to me is all.



:exactly:

You are SOOOO RIGHT Sledman!
:beerchug:

You make a Great point my friend.:thumb:

I'd rather have my menacing looking, cat eye, I'm going stomp a mudhole in your arse '06 LBZ, than that Jay Leno chin looking front bumper '07.5/ '08 Chevy LMM. Yet if you wan't your truck to look like a Ford, by all means, get a '08 GMC.:rant:

I'm going to go for the LMM.

I thought about getting an LBZ Classic but I don't really want to buy a new "old" truck. There could be some risk due to the new LMM emissions changes but I'm not too worried. (just wait 6-12 months to see if issues crop up)

Besides that you still have to deal with ULSD whether you get a LBZ or LMM and the LMM does have slightly higher output. It also sound like there are other refinements to the LMM.




:exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly: :exactly:

I'd rather have my menacing looking, cat eye, I'm going stomp a mudhole in your arse '06 LBZ, than that Jay Leno chin looking front bumper '07.5/ '08 Chevy LMM. Yet if you wan't your truck to look like a Ford, by all means, get a '08 GMC.:rant:



I agree that the Chevy HD front bumper is not the greatest look. It looks much better painted with a color match to the truck.

When it comes to the GMC though,
Forget my cat eye 2005...

Imma DEFINATELY get myself one of the best LOOKIN new 2007 GMC HD LMM's!!!:ro)

These new GMC's Look 1000 times better than the Ford.



MY 2007 LMM is Definately gonna be lifted too- :D



http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4749/lifted3500srwll1xn3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



Great job on the photo Josh!

Hi, Sledman: No, the LBZ in the 06 is the old engine. Bill Martin

Hi, Sledman: No, the LBZ in the 06 is the old engine. Bill Martin

Ok, now I'm lost. The LBZ is the only "currently" available engine, at least in these parts, so I don't understand what you mean by "old". Do you mean the LLY they had in '06?

Or do you mean that by now, it is "old"?

It would be nice if you could get the LBZ in the new body style, but oh well........

I've read somewhere that there will be a 4.9L (V-6) turbo diesel available for the 1500's in the next couple of years. For those that don't tow heavy, this might be the one to have. If I'm not mistaken, the 4.9L is the same bore & stroke as the 6.6L, just two cylinders lopped off.

i am having a hard time deciding myself. i have a overheating lly in an 05 so im scared to buy something first year out. im not that impressed with the body on the new truck but i do love the new interior. i really like the lbz and it will probably be what i buy but it sucks it will be considered old because of the new deisgn on the 07's.

I have an '05 also, it never did overheat. I installed the V2 to get rid of the fan in our 100 degree summer heat, which it effectively cured. I will likely take the V2 off before I sell the truck, and maybe save it in case I need it for the LMM. If not, a local member of DP wants first dibs on it. I'm going to try a new style LMM. The warranty and the new body/interior, along with more factory performance than the LLY are my reasons. Also, I'm afraid resale may suffer a bit on the previous models once the new ones come out, but then again, clean used Duramaxs don't last long around here. They are holding resale well, and selling quick.

Going back and re-reading Bills' original post it now makes sense to me what Bill meant, and what Elvis had also stated. It appears I didn't comprehend things appropriately, and I owe Bill and Elvis an apology.

I am wrong, please accept my apology......

Given the extensive revisions that the manufacturers are having to make to meet the drastically tighter 2007 emissions rules that apply to diesels, I personally think that it is not a good idea to buy a newly revised engine until it's proven for at least 6 months, and preferably longer, because of the lead time in designing a fix and getting it incorporated into the manufacturing process.

There have been three steps mandated by the EPA for diesel emissions, 2004, 2007 & 2010, and each one is a relatively big step in a relatively short period of time. This has to be taken into account when considering how soon to buy the latest version of an engine. These external requirements force far more design compromises than the type of "ordinary" revisions manufacturers might voluntarily make to improve performance. With the increasing complexity of today's engines, there are a lot more external components that can drastically affect reliability.

To GM's credit, they were phasing in some of the hardware and electronics required to meet the 2007 standard in the 2006 LBZ.

Dodge/Cummins had to make far more revisions to their 2007 diesel engine, since their 2006 engine was still only compliant with the 2004 standards (which is all it had to be).

And Ford is basically starting all over again for 2007, just like they did in 2004.

Hey, Sledman and Elvis: I'm not the student of these engines that some of you guys so abviously are. I'm only an old Idaho dirt farmer that has had some experience with first-year GM products (ie. 68 Vette, 88 pu, etc.) I only hoped to circumvent some of the problems that MIGHT be associated with a somewhat more complicated engine. Hopefully, my 06 LBZ will get me through this. It pulled our 31' tt to the LA area like a champ. On the long hill from Whiskey Pete's toward Baker I was (easily) gaining speed at the top! Bill Martin

With '02 LB7s getting cheaper every day, life is getting better and better. :D

I will NEVER buy one of these underpowered, over-emissioned weenie trucks.

With '02 LB7s getting cheaper every day, life is getting better and better. :D

I will NEVER buy one of these underpowered, over-emissioned weenie trucks.
HELL YEAH!

I love my 04.5 LLY.




However....





I'm getting the hair trade it for an 07.

Well, after reading all this opinon as to which is the toughest looking blah, blah, and blah truck GMC makes, I have reached my conclusion. After driving my 2006 GMC Sierra DuraMax/Allison 4X4 CC SB for several months, I can state it is just about perfect. However, when I trade it in it won't be for another wimpy GMC girly truck, or a Ford fix-it mistake, or a Dodge drop-dead-in-the-garage rust bucket, no, not at all, I'm going to order a International CXT with all the bells and whistles. :grd: Now that's a real truck, with real steps you gotta climb up into, no lift kit needed! Damn, same cab as a wildland fire pumper! 5.5 Tons of payload, 20 Tons towing capacity, air suspended cab and seat, roomy crew cab, green diesel tech engine, the stuff of a real truck. Real steel, real power, raw macho testosterone holycow geewizz styling that'd knock the horn off a western saddle! You sissies debate which funny little Tupperware lined estrogenized tin box you gonna buy, while I plunk down my first Social Security check for the CXT! I may be old - but I still got taste!:cool2:

well i might as well jump in ,,ive had 3 duramaxs ,an 02 3500,an 04.5 2500 and an 06 lbz 3500,i have liked all 3 ,02 needed 12 injs and an engine and trans [all done under warrenty] 04.5 was ok but got hot[girlfrend drove it] , 06lbz is great ,but im ordering an 07-08 new style truck as soon as i can,,because IF YOU WANT TOO RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS ,YOU HAVE TO GET OFF THE PORCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
everybody should quit b*tching and just buy a new truck so gm can stay in bussiness and we can see a 2009 camaro and hot z06 corvette soon

well i might as well jump in ,,ive had 3 duramaxs ,an 02 3500,an 04.5 2500 and an 06 lbz 3500,i have liked all 3 ,02 needed 12 injs and an engine and trans [all done under warrenty] 04.5 was ok but got hot[girlfrend drove it] , 06lbz is great ,but im ordering an 07-08 new style truck as soon as i can,,because IF YOU WANT TOO RUN WITH THE BIG DOGS ,YOU HAVE TO GET OFF THE PORCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
everybody should quit b*tching and just buy a new truck so gm can stay in bussiness and we can see a 2009 camaro and hot z06 corvette soon

:exactly:

Wow, has this thread ever gotten watered down with crap writing, I gotta wade through all these people's bantering to get any REAL opinion on these...

Anyway, I think I'll go with the 08, simply for keeping it current and resale value. I am really curious to see how the 6.4 will hold up however. It seems Ford is serious to correct their diesel blunder of the 6.0 and really look after things on the after sale side. They are even giving a DVD with the owner's manual for servicing the new engines, and are training techs like crazy (5000 by mid year).

Interesting times.

Wow, has this thread ever gotten watered down with crap writing, I gotta wade through all these people's bantering to get any REAL opinion on these...



Sorry about that. This thread was the last place I expected to see members arguing. Personal attacks, or anything remotely close, will not be allowed here. I hope I have cleaned all reference to these completely.

Please respect each other and this sites rules!

kitty,kitty,kitty

Well, after reading all this opinon as to which is the toughest looking blah, blah, and blah truck GMC makes, I have reached my conclusion. After driving my 2006 GMC Sierra DuraMax/Allison 4X4 CC SB for several months, I can state it is just about perfect. However, when I trade it in it won't be for another wimpy GMC girly truck, or a Ford fix-it mistake, or a Dodge drop-dead-in-the-garage rust bucket, no, not at all, I'm going to order a International CXT with all the bells and whistles. :grd: Now that's a real truck, with real steps you gotta climb up into, no lift kit needed! Damn, same cab as a wildland fire pumper! 5.5 Tons of payload, 20 Tons towing capacity, air suspended cab and seat, roomy crew cab, green diesel tech engine, the stuff of a real truck. Real steel, real power, raw macho testosterone holycow geewizz styling that'd knock the horn off a western saddle! You sissies debate which funny little Tupperware lined estrogenized tin box you gonna buy, while I plunk down my first Social Security check for the CXT! I may be old - but I still got taste!:cool2:

You're serious? It's cool and all that but my kid could outrun it on his bicycle. It's as convenient in town as a UPS truck. I guess it's all in what you need eh?

We're kickin' ourselves trying to decide on a LBZ or the '07LMM. The big issue is the cost. The '07s are going to cost a LOT more. Style over $? Hmmm.....

another thing to consider is the lbz will run on bio diesel. i don't imagine the lmm will.

another thing to consider is the lbz will run on bio diesel. i don't imagine the lmm will.

why not? biodiesel is going to be a legit alternative to fossil fuels. I would not hesitate to try it.

While apparently this is not a change from the biodiesel compatibility of the LBZ, now GM is explicitly promoting it for the LMM:
http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2007&regionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=4634&section=oi_def&page=6&butID=3

While apparently this is not a change from the biodiesel compatibility of the LBZ, now GM is explicitly promoting it for the LMM:
http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2007&regionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=4634&section=oi_def&page=6&butID=3Another interesting point, if you go to the above link and scroll down and click on MW7 Allison transmission you will see the spec's for the Allison transmission. There you will read that the Maximum Torque Rating for this transmission is 620 lb-ft. It appears that GM is already overloading this transmission with the 660 lb-ft of torque from the LMM Diesel engine and the 650 lb-ft from the LBZ.

Sometimes it seems that GM changes the Allison 1000 max. torque rating arbitrarily without actually changing any hardware.

For the 2005MY, the max. torque rating was listed as 605 here: http://media.gm.com/division/2005_prodinfo/powertrain/index.html

2006: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/r_cars/truck%20eng%20trans.html
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/Spec%20Sheets/Transmissions/2006%20Automatics/06%20Allison%201000%20Series_MW7%20GMT800.pdf

2007: http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/07truck.htm
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Spec%20Sheet/Transmissions/2007%20Automatics/07%20Allison%201000%20Series_MW7%20GMT900.xls

I don't know if they've made any changes since the big changes for the 2006MY, when they also boosted the published torque rating to 650. They don't seem to mention any here:
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats%20New/07%20Allison%201000%20transmission%20m74%20mb7%20m w7.doc
"2007 Model Year Summary
Allison 1000 five- and six-speed automatic truck transmission
Six-speed model replaces five-speed model in motorhome applications (MTR)
Heavy-duty applications get six-speed early in 2007 Model Year (MBV, MBX, MBW)"

Though not new for 2007, I guess this helps:
"Because of advanced electronic controls, the 1000 series transmissions are able to handle more torque input (see specs) when engines are programmed for shift energy management (SEM), which limits output during shifts."

I don't know if they've made any changes since the big changes for the 2006MY, when they also boosted the published torque rating to 650. They don't seem to mention any here:
http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en/product_services/2007/Whats%20New/07%20Allison%201000%20transmission%20m74%20mb7%20m w7.doc
Another interesting tidbit in the above link, if you scroll down to Page 2, 3rd paragraph it says "Durability comes from a target lifespan of 200,000 miles, made possible through the use of larger, heavier components than are normally found in 1-ton pickups."

Quite interesting!

I may be wrong, but I thought the expected rebuild intervals were 250,000 miles for the Duramax and Powerstroke, and 350,000 miles for the Cummins. Am I wrong with these numbers? Maybe they were actually 150,000 and 250,000, respectively. The Duramax getting bumped up says alot for the desing over time (if these numbers are used). Hopefully they arnt getting bumped DOWN!

Having a "brand new" or the "latest model" truck only lasts for a few months. In the end you are stuck with a "newish" vehicle that is a huge investment, and the only thing you can wish for is that you have "the pinnacle oF Duramax" engine (the LBZ of course). It progressed from 300 hp and 520 tq to 360 and 650. The new ones have too much extra emissions crap and can't be trusted. I drive MANY Duramax trucks at work daily, and the stock LB7s don't feel fast at all. The stock LLYs throw down some nice smoke and you can really hear and feel the turbo, but the LBZ is the one that boils the tires and instantly convinces you that is has too much power for it's own good. I can't imagine the new motor rivaling it when all it is is a choked up LBZ. Get the LBZ... while you can :(

Having a "brand new" or the "latest model" truck only lasts for a few months. In the end you are stuck with a "newish" vehicle that is a huge investment, and the only thing you can wish for is that you have "the pinnacle oF Duramax" engine (the LBZ of course). It progressed from 300 hp and 520 tq to 360 and 650. The new ones have too much extra emissions crap and can't be trusted. I drive MANY Duramax trucks at work daily, and the stock LB7s don't feel fast at all. The stock LLYs throw down some nice smoke and you can really hear and feel the turbo, but the LBZ is the one that boils the tires and instantly convinces you that is has too much power for it's own good. I can't imagine the new motor rivaling it when all it is is a choked up LBZ. Get the LBZ... while you can :(

How can you say this without driving an LMM? The LMM is spec'd at even higher output then LBZ so that pollution equipment must not be hurting it too much. It sounds like GM added more enhancements/refinements to more then compensate what they were going to loose in the way of emissions. (ex: improved turbo responce and fuel delivery system) .

I wouldn't count the LMM out just yet!!

How can you say this without driving an LMM? The LMM is spec'd at even higher output then LBZ so that pollution equipment must not be hurting it too much. It sounds like GM added more enhancements/refinements to more then compensate what they were going to loose in the way of emissions. (ex: improved turbo responce and fuel delivery system) .

I wouldn't count the LMM out just yet!!


I'm just antsy about the filter. Will it stay free flowing or will your engine get doggy after awhile? Will '07s have to be smogged? Will the GM particulate filter have to be replaced at intervals like the Fords will (as ecplained on the links on this page)? Will you be able to take the cat and filter off?

All of these questions have NOT been answered. For the extra $3000+ that the LMM is going to cost, perhaps there's a new or lightly used LBZ in my immediate future.

How can you say this without driving an LMM? The LMM is spec'd at even higher output then LBZ so that pollution equipment must not be hurting it too much. It sounds like GM added more enhancements/refinements to more then compensate what they were going to loose in the way of emissions. (ex: improved turbo responce and fuel delivery system) .

I wouldn't count the LMM out just yet!!



I couldnt agree with you more davefr...:exactly:

Too many people are trying to say how bad the LMM will be when they havnt even driven one yet, LET ALONE even seen one under a hood.

The LMM makes MORE power than the lbz, and therefore has the potential for even MORE power once emmissions devices are deleted. With the amount of diesel enthusiasts and performance Diesel mechanics and technicians out there, trust me, the emmissions will be deleted if your all out plan is a 10 second LMM Duramax!;)

All suggetions go to waiting until at leats a few LMM duramax's are out on the road and you can test drive them.

Until then, all opinions against purchasing the LMM is Null and Void. Therefore, irrellavant, until we have the proof under our heavy right foots of how well this new 365 HP and 660 Foot pound LMM really performs.
:exactly:

the stock LB7s don't feel fast at all. The stock LLYs throw down some nice smoke and you can really hear and feel the turbo, but the LBZ is the one that boils the tires and instantly convinces you that is has too much power for it's own good.


You make a great point. The Lbz Makes some major tire smokin power with a stock rating of 360 HP and 650 Foot pounds of torque, compared to the "older Duramax Diesels" with less power.

Only thing you somehow forgot, is how the NEW LMM makes even MORE POWER than the LBZ.
The LBZ will now be one of the "older Duramax Diesels" with less power than the newest version...

Which, therefore new LMM equals = Even MORE Tire boiling POWER!!!

:grd:

I think everybody is overdoing the emmisions thing with the LMM. Sooner or later we will all be driving one.

Will you be able to take the cat and filter off?
All of these questions have NOT been answered. For the extra $3000+ that the LMM is going to cost, perhaps there's a new or lightly used LBZ in my immediate future.

Hey,

Where did you hear that it will cost $3,000 more for the LMM? And why on EARTH would you want to take the CAT & filter off? It will gain you nothing other than a nasty fine. IMO, it's pointless to do that!!

I just love my 06 LBZ. 2500 miles on it - long enough to know that the engine is incredible, the 6 speed Allison is terrific, and the silver birch color just suits me. I'm pretty sure it will do just fine until the 08s hit the market. Bill Martin, Old Idaho dirt farmer (retired)

Personally I would wait to see what the 'BUGS really are going to be, with soo many changes it is hard to say Censored . Them SMOG\EMISSION GEEKS-:t are getting smarter:confused: and it doesn't take but a sensor on the side of the road to "REALLY" see what is coming out of your tail pipe! is HORSE POWER really the deciding factor here? Open up the intake and exauhst and how much more do you get LB7\LLY\LLM??? With all the potential smog shCensored they can put on you may not be able to screw with it much. MODS if you really want to play your gonna have to pay$$.. Why not spend less on a slightly older rig and bullet proof it with a shCensored load of power on demand or not! Just got mine 6 months ago and have the wish list for add-ons getting shorter. All in good time, but remember get what you want. Your making the payment so make sure your happy!!!!
ENJOY I know I am even if I get smoked by that darn short bed single pumpin out 500hp.

the LMM is going to be Approx. $3000 more than an 07 LBZ because mainly of the exhaust system which includes a converter that heats up to 1500 deg. and burns off any unburnt fuel going out the exhaust also will have a fan toward teh rear of the truck to get rid of that heat produced from the cat.

I have heard that there is a new system being tested that as you drive down the road, they will be able to check and see what your emissions are. There is a proto type system already being tested. I will try and fnd it and post it.

I have heard that there is a new system being tested that as you drive down the road, they will be able to check and see what your emissions are. There is a proto type system already being tested. I will try and fnd it and post it.

That sounds like something the idiots in Kalifornia would use. The average efficiency of cars has drastically improved and the rate of emissions equipment removal/over-rides has declined as the systems have become more integral to the overall vehicle systems. Therefore the need for vehicle testing has diminished.

Vehicle testing is very poor taxpayer ROI and it's mainly used to keep the vehicle testers employed at public union wages for political reasons.

Hey,

Where did you hear that it will cost $3,000 more for the LMM? And why on EARTH would you want to take the CAT & filter off? It will gain you nothing other than a nasty fine. IMO, it's pointless to do that!!




Pointless? I guess it depends on how high the EGTs are with and without. It depends on if you ever chip it or not. I don't mind a good muffler to kill the noise but if it's a mileage or hp killer, it might make a difference to anyone thinking about the LMM. ONe of my favorite things about owning a diesel in California (for now anyway) is not having to take my vehicle to the smog nazis all the time.

The $3000 thing came directly from my dealership when I talked to them a few days ago. The salesman and sales manager told me that. I know the salesman, and he could care less if I bought now or waited. This is my fifth vehicle from this dealership so they know I'll be buying from them. We're probably picking up an LBZ next month.

One thing these guys are mentioning is spooky as HELLL to me, the hot exhaust temps. My grandad burned up a new caddy in '74 by parking it in tall grass at a job site. Living in the parched Sierra Nevadas, with foxtail grass up to your knees, this may pose a serious risk.

I LOVE the new look of the GMT900s. But I also love the look of this generation (as you can tell) but the extra krap is VERY reminiscent of what happened to gasoline engines in the 70s. All that smog krap meant one thing, well two actually, more problems and less power. Getting a vehicle that simply MUST have everything installed on it from the factory was a real bummer then (smog pumps, cats, vacuum canisters etc.) and it looks to be again (particulate filters etc.) And most importantly, if the danged thing has to be drug into the smog nazi every two years, I DON'T WANT IT.
http://photos.imageevent.com/huckbb62/bigboytoys/websize/P1010034_2.JPG
http://photos.imageevent.com/huckbb62/bigboytoys/websize/P1010001.JPG

I think everybody is overdoing the emmisions thing with the LMM. Sooner or later we will all be driving one.


Negative, i'll keep my LBZ... 5 hp and 10 more ft lbs of torque in the LMM isn't earth shattering upgrades...

I hear what you're saying about the teething pains of original gas engine emission systems. (they were pretty bad until 1976, 1975 was the absolute worst!!) After that catalytic convertors appeared and then electronic fuel injection. Those later items made a world of difference to emissions, performance and driveability.

Most of this technology has had a long time to improve/evolve so I really don't think we're going to see a repeat of the original gasser teething pains.

However the DPF is somewhat troubling. If designed right then the only effect I can see is a very slight decrease in exhaust efficiency. Does anyone know if DPF technology has been used before in other applications?? Will we be the first??

The other changes in the LMM sound like overall improvements. (ie better turbo design, improved fuel management, more capable PCM at managing the overall engine systems, etc).

That sounds like something the idiots in Kalifornia would use. The average efficiency of cars has drastically improved and the rate of emissions equipment removal/over-rides has declined as the systems have become more integral to the overall vehicle systems. Therefore the need for vehicle testing has diminished.

Vehicle testing is very poor taxpayer ROI and it's mainly used to keep the vehicle testers employed at public union wages for political reasons.

Yep

That sounds like something the idiots in Kalifornia would use. The average efficiency of cars has drastically improved and the rate of emissions equipment removal/over-rides has declined as the systems have become more integral to the overall vehicle systems. Therefore the need for vehicle testing has diminished.

Vehicle testing is very poor taxpayer ROI and it's mainly used to keep the vehicle testers employed at public union wages for political reasons.

Yep they do already use it here in sunny Cali. $$$$ is what it is all about, and I asked my neighbor who is a CHP azzifer and he stated that the technology is already in use here.....-:t

DPF are used on fire trucks and on city bus transpotation around here for some time.

The LMM motor uses the same computer as the 06 and 07 Duramax. It is the new CAN protacall from what I have been told. That is why you have to have a CAN capable scanner to work on them.

well i guess it is good to be a college student that can only afford the truck i have right now i don't have to think about getting a new truck for some time

Like was said before, I think the 5 hp and 10 lb ft of torque is the difference between 3.5" exhaust and 4.0" exhaust. otherwise I think it is the same everything.

Like was said before, I think the 5 hp and 10 lb ft of torque is the difference between 3.5" exhaust and 4.0" exhaust. otherwise I think it is the same everything.

What people are forgeting is that the LMM may have 5 more HP, but think about all the extra weight added from the extra emissions equipment. Depending on how much that DPF (probably a heavy mother) and the rest of the stuff weighes, the new truck might not be able to out accelerate an LBZ.

all of this seems like just speculation i mean no one has really driven one of these trucks yet and how can you compare something that has real world numbers (LBZ) to something that is just on paper (LMM) i mean no one is forcing you to buy a new truck if you like your truck then keep your truck they will last as long as you take care of them but if not then get a new one if you don't like the new body style then get a used one i am sure there will be someone out there that loves the new trucks and will trade their old truck in for it and give you the chance to buy one.

C'mon guys, who on these forums is really going to be keeping the exhaust, and NOT block off the EGR valves? I really hope we can get rid of all this emmission crap and have fun like we have been doing. I'm just not sure what'll happen when we take it to the shop or an official gets snoopy...

It's the 70s all over. It's looking that here in Cal, they will be inspected. The LBZ will be the hotrod to have.

Thats right from what I have heard, NY will be tail pipe sniffing the 07.5 and newer vehicles. IF you go to get your inspectors licence now, they are teaching you how to do the sniffing. They will be doing some sort of snap throttle test.

found out last week , diesel stop i go to has had ULSD for about 6 weeks, no differance in fuel economy or power on my LBZ.

Keep it on topic Guys. Feel free to start other threads in the proper forums to discuss the other items that come up in here. Thanks.

Well guys as soon as I get to drive (beat the holy living crap out of) an LMM here at the dealership I'll share my impresions. In all fairness, the LBZ is a hot rod, and the question is: is the LMM as good or better with a new body style, or will it be a pain in the ass??

and the question is: is the LMM as good or better with a new body style, or will it be a pain in the ass??

Once the dust has settled, I think the LMM will be better. It will run cleaner, which like it or not, is better for all of us, and the extra HP/TQ, how can GM go wrong.

JMHO

I think the smog thing on the LMM is being overdone. GM is smart and they'er not going to ruin the Duramax this late in the game. Just my 2 cents. Plus I had to post something.

Once the dust has settled, I think the LMM will be better. It will run cleaner, which like it or not, is better for all of us, and the extra HP/TQ, how can GM go wrong.

JMHO



Very True WilliamBos.

:thumb:

This stuff just frosts my pumkins! I have an original early '01, stills serves me very well, still gets 18+ MPG and 13+ towing 10K, still has only about 66K on the odometer, still has all original injectors and everything else it came with (I do have to change that fan belt soon before it breaks from old age).

I was thinking about getting a new truck when the LB7 came along and all the issues cropped up, then the LLY was the mother to have and well that became somewhat scary and the LBZ appeared new on the block and given the history....well decided to wait.

This darn Duraburnsmyazz engine is getting like new computers, you buy the latest and greatest and 6 months later there is a new latest and greatest on the market, the only difference is new computers keep getting cheaper and the Duramax.... well $3K more for the already excessive option package....really? Never mind cleaning up the air, GM is choking me to death on the cost of the DPF and related components or are they just taking advantage of the changes to raise profits?

Believe it or not, my wife is the one buggin the hell out of me to git a new truck. We gonna retire maybe next year and she wants to set sail into the sunset with a new car, new truck, new house somewhere and that means all new furniture and you all know there's a lot more that goes with that deal.

I had all this worked out so as I could just run up a bunch of bills and sit on the porch and wait for the repossessor to find me. Now with $3K more needed to get the darn new truck, I can't qualify for all the loans LOL

My '01 is fine and should easily last another 100K which at my rate of white line accumulation should be another 8-10 years....hell I might not be around to see it! LOL I will challenge anyone to find a better maintained truck in America than my '01. Big words I know, but I got the slips to prove it LOL

So my point is ....hell I forgot my point except if you keep on bellyaching about what might go wrong with a new truck you will never get a new one and end up like where I am stuck now. Run my '01 longer and see what happens to the LMM and about the time I am satisfied the LMM is the way to go the LXE will be introduced (Last Experimental Engine) LOL

I think I will just wait for employee pricing to return in June of '07 and take the plunge LOL

I think the smog thing on the LMM is being overdone. GM is smart and they'er not going to ruin the Duramax this late in the game. Just my 2 cents. Plus I had to post something.yes yes yes what he said:ro):ro):ro):ro):ro):ro):ro):ro)

This stuff just frosts my pumkins! I have an original early '01, stills serves me very well, still gets 18+ MPG and 13+ towing 10K, still has only about 66K on the odometer, still has all original injectors and everything else it came with (I do have to change that fan belt soon before it breaks from old age).

I was thinking about getting a new truck when the LB7 came along and all the issues cropped up, then the LLY was the mother to have and well that became somewhat scary and the LBZ appeared new on the block and given the history....well decided to wait.

This darn Duraburnsmyazz engine is getting like new computers, you buy the latest and greatest and 6 months later there is a new latest and greatest on the market, the only difference is new computers keep getting cheaper and the Duramax.... well $3K more for the already excessive option package....really? Never mind cleaning up the air, GM is choking me to death on the cost of the DPF and related components or are they just taking advantage of the changes to raise profits?

Believe it or not, my wife is the one buggin the hell out of me to git a new truck. We gonna retire maybe next year and she wants to set sail into the sunset with a new car, new truck, new house somewhere and that means all new furniture and you all know there's a lot more that goes with that deal.

I had all this worked out so as I could just run up a bunch of bills and sit on the porch and wait for the repossessor to find me. Now with $3K more needed to get the darn new truck, I can't qualify for all the loans LOL

My '01 is fine and should easily last another 100K which at my rate of white line accumulation should be another 8-10 years....hell I might not be around to see it! LOL I will challenge anyone to find a better maintained truck in America than my '01. Big words I know, but I got the slips to prove it LOL

So my point is ....hell I forgot my point except if you keep on bellyaching about what might go wrong with a new truck you will never get a new one and end up like where I am stuck now. Run my '01 longer and see what happens to the LMM and about the time I am satisfied the LMM is the way to go the LXE will be introduced (Last Experimental Engine) LOL

I think I will just wait for employee pricing to return in June of '07 and take the plunge LOL

Good points. It is somewhat frustrating to see a new engine model come every year or so. I think GM and other manufacturers are still in early stages of diesel development and until they have a proven, reliable engine without any major problems, we'll probably continue to see changes for awhile. Agreed, some of the changes are dictated by the govt.

It's a good thing GM used 3-digit alpha's to differentiate the engines. That way, there's plenty of combinations for future generations of Duramax's. :rolleyes:

I think the smog thing on the LMM is being overdone. GM is smart and they'er not going to ruin the Duramax this late in the game. Just my 2 cents. Plus I had to post something.

Naw, they'd never do that! :rolleyes: Remember the Vette engines of the early 80's? -:t

As AMerican diesel enthusiasts, we all know that there will always be aftermarket compaines making performance add-ons for all popular diesels, especially if that is where the future is going (cleaner burning diesels).

High power aftermarket tuners will not be a problem for the new LMM just as it isnt a problem for the LBZ. Just like any other motors in the past, all bugs will surely be worked out right as they come without delay. Given some time, there will be a HUGE selection of aftermarekt goodies for the 2007 LMM Diesel, just as there is now for all other Duramax motors.

Basically, what it all comes down to, is which body style you like or prefer.
All the negative talk towards an LMM Duramax is "ALL" speculation based on a motor NO ONE has driven yet, or even seen.

Either way Im sure any new owner of a new LBZ or LMM will still be proud to have a GM Duramax motor under the hood, over any other Diesel truck on the market!;)

all of this seems like just speculation i mean no one has really driven one of these trucks yet and how can you compare something that has real world numbers (LBZ) to something that is just on paper (LMM) i mean no one is forcing you to buy a new truck if you like your truck then keep your truck they will last as long as you take care of them but if not then get a new one if you don't like the new body style then get a used one i am sure there will be someone out there that loves the new trucks and will trade their old truck in for it and give you the chance to buy one.



:exactly:



You hit it right on the nail jdugie123!
:beerchug:

I know the emissions stuff sounds crazy, but I dont think its going to be all that bad. Remember this is not only a GM designed thingy, its going in all the diesel trucks. I'm sure its not ideal, but I'd take the new body style w/ the dpf over the old body style. I seriously doubt that the dpf is going to make any difference.

LMM has higher output then LBZ and better low end turbo response. It also includes other refinements. Yes, the DPF concept is somewhat troubling but I don't think the driver will ever know it's there.

GM is claiming DPF service intervals of 100k miles.

I'm not going to run off and buy an old tired looking classic just to get the LBZ. I may however wait until the LMM is out for a year before I buy.

I just wish GM didn't dump the 8.1.

If the new interior, new sheet metal and 5hp/10ft# is more important get the 08. If better mpg, less emission equipment and the availability of aftermarket parts right now for the truck and motor is more important get the 07. The frame, axles, transmission, tcase, ect. are all the same on either truck.

If the new interior, new sheet metal and 5hp/10ft# is more important get the 08. If better mpg, less emission equipment and the availability of aftermarket parts right now for the truck and motor is more important get the 07. The frame, axles, transmission, tcase, ect. are all the same on either truck.

:exactly: :agreed:

:exactly:

My friend has a new 2006 LBZ Duramax and he has already noticed a decrease in mialage based on using the new USLD. That truck is an LBZ too, which has decreased in mialage.

:cool2:


No he didn't. Sulfur has nothing to do with BTU's. I think the Oct 15 change over over lapped with seasonal implementation of winter blend and has people thinking ULSD has less BTU's.

No he didn't. Sulfur has nothing to do with BTU's. I think the Oct 15 change over over lapped with seasonal implementation of winter blend and has people thinking ULSD has less BTU's.



That cool part in that statement I wrote wasnt apart of the decrease in mialage thing. You cut my previous statement in the wrong spots. Oh well, no harm done.

As far as you saying "no he didnt" (get worse mialage with USLD), well then you have to take that up with him. Im not guranteeing that he lost mialage, im just "RE-STATING" the information he told me.;)

No he didn't. Sulfur has nothing to do with BTU's. I think the Oct 15 change over over lapped with seasonal implementation of winter blend and has people thinking ULSD has less BTU's.

GMCJoe is right,
I did notice a decrease in mileage just after using ULSD.
Some say they don't notice a difference, some say they did.
I spoke to a guy that ran LSD (around 16mpg) then filled up with ULSD (got around 14mpg) then filled back up with LSD (back to 16 mpg)

I personally noticed a small difference but I guess everyones truck is different. Now that I just got EFI live, I should be able to come up with some sort of economy tune and get that 2 mpg back!

(I'm not sure we even have a winter blend here in Cali, do we?)

Just switched over to #2 ULSD about 3 tanks ago and my mileage and engine smoothness hasn't changed. If anything my mileage is up just a little.

GMCJoe is right,
I did notice a decrease in mileage just after using ULSD.
Some say they don't notice a difference, some say they did.
I spoke to a guy that ran LSD (around 16mpg) then filled up with ULSD (got around 14mpg) then filled back up with LSD (back to 16 mpg)

I personally noticed a small difference but I guess everyones truck is different. Now that I just got EFI live, I should be able to come up with some sort of economy tune and get that 2 mpg back!

(I'm not sure we even have a winter blend here in Cali, do we?)
if ur having trouble with the mileage i have found that using the lucas fuel additive gives you the mileage back, and is good for the injector pump, since sulfer is a natural lubricant. it is also very inexpensive when used to the proper ratio, costs me about an extra 2 cents per gallon, but it gives me close to 2 mpg better, depending on driving conditions

if ur having trouble with the mileage i have found that using the lucas fuel additive gives you the mileage back, and is good for the injector pump, since sulfer is a natural lubricant. it is also very inexpensive when used to the proper ratio, costs me about an extra 2 cents per gallon, but it gives me close to 2 mpg better, depending on driving conditions


I'm using Stanadyne

The LMM with higher horsepower and smog attached will barely get 10 mpg.The LBZ is worse on MPG than a LLY.The more power the more fuel consumed not to mention the smog restrictions add $2500 -3500 to the price tag.Your better off buying now.

I think alot of you are going to be surprised just how good the LMM is. Then you will all wont one. HAHA! Sorry couldn't help myself.

I just bought a 2007 4WD, Short box, crew cab with the LBZ with 6-speed allison paddle shift and LT3 package today. Glad to get one of he last ones left.

That should confirm my vote for the LBZ over the series first LMM. I just put my money where my mouth is LOL

In about 5-6 years I can look back and either smile or just be grumply LOL

Now I just have to find a good home for my 2001!

Did i read where the LMM has electric fan?? THat and the bigger exhaust is the only reason it is 5 hp more. I have had lb7, lly , and now lbz. The LBZ rocks and has more power (way More) and better gas mileage than either. I dont think i would want to spend the extra $$$ on the new heavier, bogged down, smogged, truck. BUT, i havent seen or drove one yet either. Im gonna have to say LBZ!!! Just think of the tranny and power upgrades you could do with $3,000 and maybe have money left over for wheels or something.:D

If the new interior, new sheet metal and 5hp/10ft# is more important get the 08. If better mpg, less emission equipment and the availability of aftermarket parts right now for the truck and motor is more important get the 07. The frame, axles, transmission, tcase, ect. are all the same on either truck.

Hey Micheal,
I just picked up the new Diesel Power issue with you on the front!
I just wanted to say "Brovo"
Way to "stick it to the man".
Keep up the good work.

Hey Micheal,
I just picked up the new Diesel Power issue with you on the front!
I just wanted to say "Brovo" Way to "stick it to the man".Keep up the good work.

:exactly:

Hey Micheal,
I just picked up the new Diesel Power issue with you on the front!
I just wanted to say "Brovo"
Way to "stick it to the man".
Keep up the good work.



I saw the same magazine today. Out of 9 trucks I think it was, you came out on top.

You smoked the SH*& out of those Furd Powerjokes and Dodges.

Great Job man, GREAT JOB!
:ro)

08 lmm

That's wierd, The caps didn't show up after 3 tries.:confused:

i'd rather wait for someone to make power mods that work with the emissions equipment or possibly makes replacements that have the same emissions controlling ability while taking away(most atleast) the power restriction.i'd like the idea of making power w/o doing more harm to the environment (and my own lungs at that) than that that is already being done.

I would say go for the 08LMM. If money was no concern go with the newest possible. When i get ready to buy a D/A it's going to be what i can afford or justify. I would settle for the LBZ but nothing less.

Good Luck!

Do like I'm doing, spend a ton of money on a pure LB7 or LLY race truck and buy a new one and leave it mostly stock to tow it to the races.:D Best of both worlds.